It's called a software update.
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Scott Vail
Senior Member
I too, agree with this. I'm still using 1Password 6, on a Mojave platform. Rather than upgrade to 1Password 7 where the subscription model was being heavily promoted (yet a perpetual license was available), I downloaded a copy of Secrets anticipating AgileBits would eventually eliminate the perpetual license model.
Secrets is hardly as robust as 1Password, but it's gets the job done and without the "pay for life" subscription. I have no issues with paying for version upgrades, when/if new features and compatibility are distributed. I see that as a loyalty agreement between myself and the developers. The subscription model, in my opinion, alleviates developers of releasing enhancements that make upgrades attractive enough for the customer to upgrade
Although my intent isn't a promotion for Secrets, it is the password manager that meets my basic needs and primarily what I rely upon. 1Password is the mechanism used to keep my mobile devices current by way of local wifi sync. Yes, i maintain two password databases, but once established, there isn't a great deal of effort to maintain currency. An IOS version of Secrets is available, but doesn't support local wifi sync.
I don't believe that 1Password 6 will be functional beyond Mojave, so I was hoping this forum thread would reveal more alternatives. Keychain is an obvious contender and I do use it on a very limited <local> basis. Password management isn't alone in my endeavor to avoid the subscription model. The concept, in my view, is a benefit to the company -- not the end user.
Scott
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wklee
Guest
If you use iOS then 1Password 7 for iOS supports local vaults and subscription. I ran both local and subscription until I stopped using local vaults. iOS App Store keeps wanting to update to the latest version and I didn't find a way to stop the push.
I'll look at Secrets.
--
Never buy version 1.0 of anything.
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot
Joni Mitchell's Big Yellow Taxi
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robgendreau
Forum Pro
I've always found it interesting that those who bother to complain about subscriptions use hyperbole like "force everyone" and "rest of their life" and "bullied" and such. I don't quite get the drama; why not just "I prefer another product"?
I had some doubts as to the value of the Agilebits subscription, and shopped an demo'd others, having used it since it started. But decided on getting the sub and have been very happy with it. I go either way on them just based on what fits, and don't see any bullying, forcing, coercing, or anything else. Geez, it's just a software program. And not unlike all the other subscriptions I have from software to media to services.
Actually, if you read about them from the developers' point of view it's the opposite. This is one of the better explanations, for Ulysses: https://blog.ulysses.app/why-were-switching-ulysses-to-subscription/
The gist is, in part, this:
I tend to believe in capitalism, and the market. And in the case of subscription payment for software vs perpetual licenses it seems that both buyer and seller have achieved gains, as one would expect if a model were successful. Predictions that Adobe would stop improving their photo apps proved to be far, far off the mark, and consumers and sellers even benefit from less uncertainty and friction in the sales themselves. Probably why, in part, Ps is so much cheaper than before.
Scott Vail
Senior Member
Correct. But, anticipated that 1Password 7 would be the last version available as a perpetual license and looked for another solution that might be a better for the long term.
Still not sure that Secrets is the ideal alternative. In terms of pricing/licensing, yes. Some features lacking include local wifi sync with its companion IOS app;.
Scott
Scott Vail
Senior Member
It isn't at all that I "prefer another product".. I prefer another licensing model.
Scott
It’s both a fallacy to think that (1) we don’t have to keep paying on an ongoing basis for the software we use and that (2) everybody expects software to keep evolving without any extra payment.
This might sound like a contradiction but the key is that not all software is ‘created equal’. Some are written once and still run fine ten years later (Notational Velocity is an example, its last update was more than ten years ago and it still works in Big Sur, though you have to bypass Gatekeeper for it). On iOS, apps don’t tend to last that long but I am still regularly using an app last updated in 2015.
Others not only need updates to keep running after OS updates but also could be ‘fatal’ if not continuously updated (you’d want your backup app to be actively tested against all new OS versions). Apps with a web component tend to fall more into this category, as does software with a security aspect. The standalone version of 1Password conveniently outsources the daily cloud component to Dropbox or iCloud (and if you don’t use the fill-in feature, it also doesn’t have to keep up with browser development). But other things like the Watchtower feature might need client updates to keep working and it is not an app you want to have fail, corrupt data or not be updated if at some point a security vulnerability is discovered.
Look, I am happy to regularly pay for apps that are critical for my day-to-day usage and/or that I really like (which includes paying for updates that I don’t actually need but I want to reward the developer for a great app and help to keep the app alive). But other types of apps I just keep using until they ‘fall apart’ (ie, stop working) and when that happens I either buy a newer version of the app (if available) or find another app that can fulfil the same task.
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lightandaprayer
Veteran Member
I think that your fears are not logical. . . If that "disgruntled employee" can insert a backdoor into the Cloud backups, why can't they do the same when coding the 1Password application? The idea that a single disgruntled employee could make such significant changes to the code and security protocols simply does not make sense. I cannot imagine that a company whose quality of security is the primary basis for its customers trust would make it possible for one individual to have that much unsupervised access without any oversight redundancy and security-related product testing.
There are many people involved in the development and maintenance of a project as large and complex as 1Password and Cloud data storage. That means that there are many eyes viewing every aspect of their work.
You say that you have read all of the security features, so you know that 1Password uses end-to-end encryption and that only the user knows their Master Password. Account owners also have a second "Secret Key" which adds another layer of protection.
There are many eyes outside the company looking at 1Password and its various layers of security. It was a third-party that discovered the bug in Kaspsersky's PRNG protocol and eventually notified the company about the problem. No product is perfect; mistakes can and do happen during development. But your concern is probably the least likely scenario that I can think of happening.
I am under no illusion that anything I can say will disabuse you of your misguided paranoia. But I think that it needs to be answered from a viewpoint that is actually grounded in reality.
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lightandaprayer
Veteran Member
I agree with this. . . I had two complaints about the initial move to subscriptions. It was difficult to upgrade a license to 1Password 7. The option was essentially hidden but fortunately the company was compelled to make it somewhat easier to purchase after receiving a lot of complaints from customers who wanted to upgrade a standalone license vs. switching to the subscription option.
The other problem I ran into was with customer support via the 1Password forum. In my experience, obtaining individual customer assistance at 1Password has always been problematic. It has always taken much longer to receive a response than at any other software company I have dealt with.
1Password is a very large commercial software company and yet its customer support took longer than most small and one-person shops where the developer handles everything. Dave Nanian at SuperDuper is the King of fast and helpful small-shop customer service, whether contact is done via the customer forum or via email. (Dave usually responds in minutes and he goes above and beyond the call of duty with his email support.) The only other software I use that takes as long as 1Password to obtain support is the sole-developer run GyazMail, which is based in Japan. (To be fair, GyazMail is a tiny fraction of the cost of 1Password and I have never had to pay for an upgrade.)
Upon the release of 1Password 7 it was worse due to the inevitable increase in support tickets. . . Apparently, instead of increasing the number of customer support reps, 1Password began to rely even more on its forum and encouraged customers to go that route.
When I tried to get assistance on the forum, most responses from 1Password employees were along the lines of "Well, if you go the subscription route you won't have this problem" which was never the case. I had to cajole them to address the actual issue and then I sometimes had 2 or 3 employees responding. In at least one instance they contradicted themselves, further confusing things until an employee who actually knew the answer straightened things out.
It was during this period that my feelings about 1Password began to sour. . . I had been happily using the program for many years because I appreciated the software's features and reliability. I recommended it to many people I knew and on various online forums. But there I was paying top-dollar compared to other lower-cost/free password managers at the time and yet I was made to feel like a second-class customer because I had opted to stick with a standalone license. It has been over 2 years since my last interaction on the 1Password forums (the 1Password subreddit was no better. . .) and that experience still affects how I feel about the company.
I am also going to look at my options. But I suspect that unless I discover in the process that I don't need some of the 1Password features, it's going to be difficult to find a comparable program at a lower cost without subscription licenses. Did you find anything that is worthy of consideration?
I appreciate that you posted the link to the Ulysses blog. . . I think that the reasoning is sound and I am sympathetic to the fact that software developers often find themselves stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to meeting customer expectations regarding features and cost.
Part of the problem may be the lingering belief by some that when it comes to certain computer-related products, they should be cheap or even free. I regularly see evidence of it on this forum: A desire for free/inexpensive software, sometimes with the expectation that it offer features comparable to highly-developed commercial programs. (The same goes for information.) Folks seem to have little problem spending beaucoup bucks on computers, cameras, etc. but when it comes to the stuff that makes them functional, they suddenly become tightwads.
1Password faces a dilemma detailed in the blog post: It is a mature product that is unlikely to see major updates with flashy new features that will attract new customers. So how does it finance continuing development and maintenance of its complicated infrastructure without alienating current customers?
Even though I can currently afford the subscription prices, this is what bothers me: I don't need the extra features that arguably add value to the product and the monthly cost seems high to me, especially when compared to what I have paid in the past. If they offered a less expensive tier, for example without Cloud-based vaults, the price could be closer to what I consider reasonable. There are other features that I can live without and still retain the functionality that I have come to rely on in a password manager.
I also favor capitalism, albeit with sufficient government oversight to mitigate predatory practices and protect people from the well-documented excesses of unregulated markets. As I write this there is no such thing as a "free market" and I hope there never will be. . . It's difficult to imagine just how much worse things would be for all of us if we lived with unfettered capitalism.
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LarryRC
Senior Member
I suppose an update could be programmed to send a copy of my vault along with my unlocking key to someone?
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wklee
Guest
1Password lost WLAN Sync or WiFi Sync in 1Password 6 for Windows. In spite of complaints and a survey it's gone. 1Password 7 for Mac currently should have it, however, for 1Password 8 I am not sure if it will remain.
Where is the WLAN Server Icon on 1Password 7 for Mac?
https://support.1password.com/cs/wlan-server/
Where is the WLAN Server Icon on 1Password 7 for Mac?
https://support.1password.com/cs/wlan-server/
LarryRC
Senior Member
Here is one option:
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/06/11/macos-monterey-password-updates/
I don’t really understand why AgileBits would go to a subscription model right now. Perhaps it does make since for families as a way for one family “admin” person to keep everyone secure.
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/06/11/macos-monterey-password-updates/
I don’t really understand why AgileBits would go to a subscription model right now. Perhaps it does make since for families as a way for one family “admin” person to keep everyone secure.
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1Password details that everything stored on their servers is end-to-end encrypted, meaning the key to decrypt it never leaves the customers’ devices (“Only you know your Master Password: it’s never […] sent over the network”). That means that even to access the data stored on their server, they would first need to modify the local client (via a software update) to send that decryption key to them.
For something like a password manager, you trust the company that it isn’t a fraudulent enterprise in the first place, that it doesn’t lie about the security architecture of its product, that it doesn’t have any security relevant bugs and that it has sufficient measures against insider attacks.
LarryRC
Senior Member
Yes but staying with the disgruntled coder with a back door…. Many possibilities are possibilities ble.
lightandaprayer
Veteran Member
Yes, by all means stay with something that is one of the least likely things that might happen. You really should study the definitions of the words possibility and probability.
It is already difficult enough to get average computer users to focus on utilizing basic security measures without obfuscating the issue by focusing attention on highly improbable scenarios.
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Yes, but the attack vector would still be the client application as it only sends locally encrypted data to their servers and thus only a backdoor built into the client application can access your data and therefore the security risk from a disgruntled employee is pretty similar whether you store data on their servers or not (that is the point of end-to-end encryption, your data never leaves your devices in a form anybody but you can decode).
If somebody manages to put a backdoor into the client, it doesn’t matter anymore where your data is stored, it is game over.
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wklee
Guest
I don’t understand it either. I read 2 years ago Agilebits have accepted outside funding from Accel Partners. They had never gone that route prior to 2019.
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blog.1password.com
robgendreau
Forum Pro
Well, Agilebits has had subscriptions for a LONG time.
The change is that they are dropping perpetual licensing, and the company explained why in a long post linked in I think the second paragraph of the very first post here.
You draw your own conclusions after reading it yourself, but it's very much for the same reasons other software companies do it: consumers like it and hence it's more profitable for them.
lightandaprayer
Veteran Member
I did not read the 1Password forum thread previously but I just did after you referenced it in your post. . .
It sounds like 1Password has once again not handled the end of "perpetual licenses" very well. It was "soshito's" posts that finally compelled Dave Teare to be honest with the customers who were venting their considerable frustration via the customer forum. Obviously I'm not the only long-time customer who is disappointed in the quality of AgileBits customer service.
It is debatable whether customers really prefer subscriptions because in reality they had little choice in the matter. Unless you were a current customer who prefers what I'll call "classic licenses" and you went to considerable lengths to find and purchase one, you probably would not even know that they are an option. . .
Even if you did know, the path of least resistance is going with the subscription license. If you download and install the free demo, it defaults to the subscription license. You are required go through the process of setting up an account. If you wanted a classic license, the process for doing so is counterintuitive and difficult to accomplish, particularly if you are an average Joe or Jane computer user. I had to get assistance via the 1Password forum and I have over 25 years using Macs and have been a 1Password user since at least v. 3.
Let's be frank here: The primary reason for the inevitable death of classic licenses is the substantial increase in profitability for AgileBits. The vague references to great new features made possible by subscription accounts should have been details about specific plans and they should have been proffered when the announcement about the licensing changes was made public.
If the company had upped its customer service game and handled it differently, there would not be so many disgruntled long-time customers. For example, if they had announced the 3-year 50% discount for perpetual license holders earlier, it would have likely softened the blow for some of the most vocal dissenters. Now it looks like an attempt at damage control which comes too late to alleviate the general mood about how things have been handled.
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wklee
Guest
When I go to my Account page at start.1password.com/signin, it prefers a big screen not a tiny for example iPhone 4.7" screen. I have to use the app not 1Password for the web on my phone.
I rarely go to 1Password for Web.
I rarely go to 1Password for Web.
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