Full Frame vs Micro 4:3

Michael Piziak

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I viewed this 2018 video, to get a perspective of how much smaller the Olympus cameras are than other cameras... The video actually compares the micro 4:3 to a full frame camera when it comes to image quality. I have neither, as I've only owned APS-C DSLR's.

While I am impressed by the size of the micro 4:3, I actually came away with a conclusion that, just perhaps, all the talk about image quality advantage of a FF camera, perhaps, just perhaps, may be a bit of "hype."

The video:


To jump straight to the image comparison, you can click to about 8:50 in the video.

Regards,

Michael
 
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I viewed this 2018 video, to get a perspective of how much smaller the Olympus cameras are than other cameras... The video actually compares the micro 4:3 to a full frame camera when it comes to image quality.
Any comparison that claims to see no difference when it doesn't examine prints of the same scene shot under the same conditions is bogus.

Fortunately, there is a tool right here on DPR that lets you compare like to like: the Studio Scene Comparison Tool.

Are you claiming you cannot see the difference between the E-MI II and the 5DIV in these shots?

9c87b2a6579542e982d6663867df54a9.jpg.png

The top pair of shots reflects the ISO settings that the video's host probably used in his shots: base ISO on each camera. The bottom post shows the difference when low light has forced an increase in ISO setting.

This old video compared a FF dSLR to a MFT MILC. Since that time Canon and Nikon have shifted to MILC production. Here is a comparison of the size of a current MILC from Canon, Nikon, and Olympus. Most of the size difference has been eliminated.

06fc22364e2240c7a8bb4aca42a86dca.jpg.png

Now you might be tempted to say, "Yeah, but the MFT lenses are much smaller." And they often are, But most of the time that's because the MFT lenses have a much smaller shooting envelope - they cannot cover the same range of DOFs for the same ranges of angles of view. When you compare lenses with equal shooting envelopes, the FF lenses are often smaller.

Here's a comparison of the popular Olympus 12-100mm f/4 PRO to the Nikon 24-100mmf/4-6.3. The Nikon covers the same diagonal angles of view and all the same DOFs as the Olympus lens. It also covers some shallower DOFs that the Olympus cannot get. Despite the Nikkor covering a larger range of DOFs and larger image circle, there is essentially no difference in size. This particular Nikon combo will produce sharper images than the Olympus combo, at the same DOF.

f370b01a2f884d998eda30bafb4a83c8.jpg.png
I have neither, as I've only owned APS-C DSLR's.

While I am impressed by the size of the micro 4:3, I actually came away with a conclusion that, just perhaps, all the talk about image quality advantage of a FF camera, perhaps, just perhaps, may be a bit of "hype."
No, not all of the talk about the IQ advantage of FF is hype. FF usually has an IQ advantage both with respect to noise/DR and to sharpness. The question is whether that advantage is large enough to matter. I'd suggest there is no objective answer. Now, with FF MILCs having shrunk the size gap, the question also arises as to whether the remaining size advantage of MFT is large enough to matter. I'd suggest it is only when you use lenses with significantly smaller shooting envelopes.

Sometimes the FF advantage may be overstated. When both shutter speed and DOF are constrained, a larger sensor provides no noise advantage. In practice, in these situations, the MFT sensor my perform fractionally better. But such shooting constraints occur in only a minority of all shooting situations. For much landscape shooting, shutter speed is not constrained; for much wildlife sports or event shooting, DOF is not constrained.
The video:


To jump straight to the image comparison, you can click to about 8:50 in the video.
Thank you for providing a timestamp. I wish more people did that.
 
Here's a comparison of the popular Olympus 12-100mm f/4 PRO to the Nikon 24-100mmf/4-6.3.
Typo. Nikon 24-200. "Nikon 24-100" raised an eyebrow until I checked on the image. :)
The Nikon covers the same diagonal angles of view and all the same DOFs as the Olympus lens. It also covers some shallower DOFs that the Olympus cannot get. Despite the Nikkor covering a larger range of DOFs .....
All the same DOFs? Or a different range of DOFs? The minimum aperture of the Olympus is f/22. The Nikon is f/22 to f/36 so it won't give as much DOF as the Olympus since, on full frame, it would need to be f/45 to do that.

--
Nick
Flickr image collections http://www.flickr.com/photos/gardenersassistant/collections/
Blog
https://fliesandflowersetc-ramblings.blogspot.com/
Summary of photo activity since 2007 https://fliesandflowers.blogspot.com/2019/01/when-i-retired-in-2006-i-had-it-in-mind.html
 
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You are going to get a bunch of replies from people saying:
  • they have switched from FF to m4/3 and couldn't be happier
  • they have switched from m4/3 to FF and couldn't be happier
  • they have switched from FF to m4/3 and have switched back or want to
  • they have switched from m4/3 to FF and have switched back or want to
  • they use both m4/3 and FF for different purposes
  • they prefer APS-C to either m4/3 or FF
  • FF is better than m4/3 and giving good reasons why
  • m4/3 is better than FF and giving good reasons why
  • m4/3 ends up cheaper than FF
  • FF ends up cheaper than m4/3.
The thing is, they are all perfectly correct. We all have different wants and preferences, shoot different subjects, have different capabilities, see the same things in different ways. This would be a pretty boring place of it were any other way.

There are technical differences between different pieces of gear on a whole range of factors including sensor size and every piece of gear comes with compromises. Only you can decide which compromises matter to you.

--
All lies and jests; Still a man hears what he wants to hear; And disregards the rest
 
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Here's a comparison of the popular Olympus 12-100mm f/4 PRO to the Nikon 24-100mmf/4-6.3.
Typo.
Indeed. I am very good at making typos.
Nikon 24-200. "Nikon 24-100" raised an eyebrow until I checked on the image. :)
The Nikon covers the same diagonal angles of view and all the same DOFs as the Olympus lens. It also covers some shallower DOFs that the Olympus cannot get. Despite the Nikkor covering a larger range of DOFs .....
All the same DOFs? Or a different range of DOFs? The minimum aperture of the Olympus is f/22. The Nikon is f/22 to f/36 so it won't give as much DOF as the Olympus since, on full frame, it would need to be f/45 to do that.
Well the thing is, at those f-number there is little actual gain in DOF from stopping down. most of the decreased blur due to stopping down is counteracted by increased blur from diffraction. Maximum DOF is thus effectively diffraction-limited. Most DOF calculators fail to take diffraction blur into account. FF lens makers could provide a larger f-number, but they don't because there is insufficient gain from doing so. Much more sharpness is lost to diffraction inside the field of acceptable sharpness than is gained at the edges of the field.

What does it gain you to have a theoretically deeper DOF if the image is rendered unusable by too much diffraction blur?

The MFT lenses may gain from the larger equivalent f-number at close distances if they have a shorter MFD. That's one aspect of shooting envelope where MFT lenses sometimes have an advantage over FF equivalents.
 
Here's a comparison of the popular Olympus 12-100mm f/4 PRO to the Nikon 24-100mmf/4-6.3.
Typo.
Indeed. I am very good at making typos.
Nikon 24-200. "Nikon 24-100" raised an eyebrow until I checked on the image. :)
The Nikon covers the same diagonal angles of view and all the same DOFs as the Olympus lens. It also covers some shallower DOFs that the Olympus cannot get. Despite the Nikkor covering a larger range of DOFs .....
All the same DOFs? Or a different range of DOFs? The minimum aperture of the Olympus is f/22. The Nikon is f/22 to f/36 so it won't give as much DOF as the Olympus since, on full frame, it would need to be f/45 to do that.
Well the thing is, at those f-number there is little actual gain in DOF from stopping down. most of the decreased blur due to stopping down is counteracted by increased blur from diffraction. Maximum DOF is thus effectively diffraction-limited. Most DOF calculators fail to take diffraction blur into account. FF lens makers could provide a larger f-number, but they don't because there is insufficient gain from doing so. Much more sharpness is lost to diffraction inside the field of acceptable sharpness than is gained at the edges of the field.

What does it gain you to have a theoretically deeper DOF if the image is rendered unusable by too much diffraction blur?
When imaging invertebrates I routinely use f/45 on full frame (around effective f/56 to effective f/132 at the magnifications of 1:1 to 8:1 I'm typically using). I previously used f/22 on micro four thirds and f/8 on 1/2.3" (with close-up lenses, with which the effective aperture did not change with magnification, and so remained at around f/45 full frame equivalent in both cases).
The MFT lenses may gain from the larger equivalent f-number at close distances if they have a shorter MFD. That's one aspect of shooting envelope where MFT lenses sometimes have an advantage over FF equivalents.
 
....
This old video compared a FF dSLR to a MFT MILC. Since that time Canon and Nikon have shifted to MILC production. Here is a comparison of the size of a current MILC from Canon, Nikon, and Olympus. Most of the size difference has been eliminated.

image

Now you might be tempted to say, "Yeah, but the MFT lenses are much smaller." And they often are, But most of the time that's because the MFT lenses have a much smaller shooting envelope - they cannot cover the same range of DOFs for the same ranges of angles of view. When you compare lenses with equal shooting envelopes, the FF lenses are often smaller.

Here's a comparison of the popular Olympus 12-100mm f/4 PRO to the Nikon 24-100mmf/4-6.3. The Nikon covers the same diagonal angles of view and all the same DOFs as the Olympus lens. It also covers some shallower DOFs that the Olympus cannot get. Despite the Nikkor covering a larger range of DOFs and larger image circle, there is essentially no difference in size. This particular Nikon combo will produce sharper images than the Olympus combo, at the same DOF.

image
You can have a nice, super capable weather resistant kit, an E-M5iii + 14-150mm f/4-5.6 with a weigh around 700g. Please find me another system- not as a dare, or provocation made towards you, but highlighting facts that M4/3 still has weight advantages and compactness at its side.

I congratulate APSC and FF bodies becoming more lighter, along with lenses- I very much do. 1", M4/3, and APSC formats have tried to match lenses "equal to FF in DoF and FoV", but FF manufacturers are still afraid to go the opposite direction. There are stand outs, such as Canon releasing new super telephoto f/11's- to which I congratulate. A7C is also a recent attempt, but still heavy, including lenses.
 
Us m43s user have been saying this for years. Religious beliefs are difficult to abandon!
 
New Day Rising,

Any way to make this a robot disclosure with all such threads? Maybe as an alert to OP’s?

”Please check, ‘Agree’ if you’d still like to revisit this topic.” 😁
 
Us m43s user have been saying this for years. Religious beliefs are difficult to abandon!
Religiously devoted m43’s users have been repeating the same thing for years? That is something religious fanatics do. They tend to hold on to beliefs.

😁
 
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Us m43s user have been saying this for years. Religious beliefs are difficult to abandon!
Religiously devoted m43’s users have been repeating the same thing for years? That is something religious fanatics do. They tend to hold on to beliefs.

😁
Same church, different pew!
 
Here's a comparison of the popular Olympus 12-100mm f/4 PRO to the Nikon 24-100mmf/4-6.3.
Typo.
Indeed. I am very good at making typos.
Nikon 24-200. "Nikon 24-100" raised an eyebrow until I checked on the image. :)
The Nikon covers the same diagonal angles of view and all the same DOFs as the Olympus lens. It also covers some shallower DOFs that the Olympus cannot get. Despite the Nikkor covering a larger range of DOFs .....
All the same DOFs? Or a different range of DOFs? The minimum aperture of the Olympus is f/22. The Nikon is f/22 to f/36 so it won't give as much DOF as the Olympus since, on full frame, it would need to be f/45 to do that.
Well the thing is, at those f-number there is little actual gain in DOF from stopping down. most of the decreased blur due to stopping down is counteracted by increased blur from diffraction. Maximum DOF is thus effectively diffraction-limited. Most DOF calculators fail to take diffraction blur into account. FF lens makers could provide a larger f-number, but they don't because there is insufficient gain from doing so. Much more sharpness is lost to diffraction inside the field of acceptable sharpness than is gained at the edges of the field.

What does it gain you to have a theoretically deeper DOF if the image is rendered unusable by too much diffraction blur?
When imaging invertebrates I routinely use f/45 on full frame (around effective f/56 to effective f/132 at the magnifications of 1:1 to 8:1 I'm typically using). I previously used f/22 on micro four thirds and f/8 on 1/2.3" (with close-up lenses, with which the effective aperture did not change with magnification, and so remained at around f/45 full frame equivalent in both cases).
The MFT lenses may gain from the larger equivalent f-number at close distances if they have a shorter MFD. That's one aspect of shooting envelope where MFT lenses sometimes have an advantage over FF equivalents.
Yes, things are quite different at very close shooting distances (as I indicated in that final paragraph).
 
You can have a nice, super capable weather resistant kit, an E-M5iii + 14-150mm f/4-5.6 with a weigh around 700g. Please find me another system- not as a dare, or provocation made towards you, but highlighting facts that M4/3 still has weight advantages and compactness at its side.
Easy. My phone beats this by a mile in terms of lightness and compactness.
 
I actually came away with a conclusion that, just perhaps, all the talk about image quality advantage of a FF camera, perhaps, just perhaps, may be a bit of "hype."
Shooting to post on instagram, facebook, pictures that will sit on your harddrive and never be seen again? Images that will be seen on a computer monitor, it makes no difference.

Shooting for large format printing it makes a difference. Dynamic range, detail, noise etc...

If all your stuff is going to be viewed on a saturated screen the size of a cell phone, it makes no difference.

If M43 finally brings out a new sensor the gap between it and FF will lessen even more for large format images.

--
Thanks,
Mike
https://www.instagram.com/mikefinleyco/
 
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