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Returning my 300D, WB and focus general problem?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Chris
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.. and yahoo doesn't allow access to full size. sigh. I've put another reduced version of the photo where I marked with 3 'circles' in about where the autofocus thought the photo should be sharp and with another one rather further back where the photo actually was in focus.

Not much of sample, unfortunately, but I can't do better right now

Chris
Chris said:
sorry 'bout that, I don't usually use that yahoo photo upload.
Hopefully it works now.

Chris
Click to expand...
 
I get that problem too with focusing, the background on many pics appears much more focus than the subject which it was supposed to be selected by the multipoint focus. The question I like to ask is what the point having a multi point focus when it really does not help?
Does this problem exist with the kit lens only?

I wonder if the the 28-135 IS lens have problems with multi point focus, perhaps Travis and other user might have inputs on this?
Hangman said:
Chris said:
I've done pressed the shutter about 800 times before deciding that
it's probably the camera. The point is, that when e.g. using
automatic white balance, I want to get an approximately right
result. When it's important to get it exactly right, I can always
get the grey cards out. But, for that money I expect the camera to
do better than low end consumer models.
Click to expand...
Grey card is not going to help white balance. Set the white
balance manually. If it's important that you get it absolutely
right then use Custom White Balance it is explained in the manual.
AltaChinook said:
As for focus, it's not that the camera doesn't produce sharp
photos. It does but not at the point is suppossed to focus on. I
used a manual focus 50/1.8 lens quite a bit last week and the
photos are very sharp.
Click to expand...
Are you still using the multi-point focusing? If so change to one
point only preferably center point. Don't use the fully auto
modes, if you want auto exposure use the "P" mode.

It would be better if you could post some shots for the people here
to look at. There is a wealth of knowledge here on this forum try
to take advantage of it.

If you have tried those with no luck then by all means take it back
and ask for a new one.

Cheers
Steve
--
A machine is only as good as its operator.
http://www.pbase.com/hangman/galleries
Click to expand...
 
Not according to one of the canon representatives and lighting industry definitions.
Juli Valley said:
Aren't tungsten and incandescant the same thing? I agree that the
AWB is not very good. I always try to set mine either custom or
according to label. I also use Sunny WB for flash, not the flash
which I think is really for studio lighting.
Click to expand...
--
http://tkis.com/wild-mike/

It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer -- Albert Einstein
 
Wild-Mike said:
Not according to one of the canon representatives and lighting
industry definitions.
Click to expand...
As far as I know, tungsten is the metal that bulb filaments are made of, and incandescent is the principle of operation - glowing with heat. Of course, IC bulbs may use other metals - then they will not be tungsten bulbs.
--
Misha
 
Hi Misha,

Usually lighting industry terminology refers tungsten to use with halogen gas. Incandescent could use a tungsten filament and for domestic lighting the bulbs are frosted to soften the light emitted.

That is why I questioned the Canon rep as to why there is a tungsten setting but not incandescent. Here is the correspondance, please note that the communications are threads of email with the first (top) message being the last:

Dear Mike,

Thank you for your inquiry. Regrettably, Canon has not listed any
firmware updates for the EOS Digital Rebel.

Canon is always updating and improving products for customers needs.
Information is released when it is available on the Canon website at-
http://www.usa.canon.com

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Todd
Product Support Representative

Customer Satisfaction... The most important product we support!

Original Message Follows:
-------------------------

Hi

Do you plan on adding an incandescent white balance setting in any
firmware
updates ...it would be useful :)

Thanks,
Mike
Member said:
Dear Mike,

Thank you for contacting Canon product support.

These lessons for the EOS Digital Rebel are being offered by
Photoworkshop.com, an independent website. It is very likely that they
meant to type Tungsten instead of Incandescent. Please contact this
website about this mistake, and for further assistance with their
lessons.

Please feel free to contact us if you have any further questions or
concerns.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Chris
Product Support Representative

Customer Satisfaction... The most important product we support!

Original Message Follows:
-------------------------

Hi,

On my digital rebel camera there is no white balance setting for
incandscent. Please review learning website for canon:
http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/lesson_02/page_04.html

I have only the following settings:
Auto, Daylight, Shade, Cloudy/twilight/sunset, Custom, flash, White
flourescent, Tungsten bulb.

I tried utilizing all of them with the use of completely incandescent
bulbs
and no other light sources. None of the above settings renders anything
useable.

Please advise,
Mike
Click to expand...
misha said:
Wild-Mike said:
Not according to one of the canon representatives and lighting
industry definitions.
Click to expand...
As far as I know, tungsten is the metal that bulb filaments are
made of, and incandescent is the principle of operation - glowing
with heat. Of course, IC bulbs may use other metals - then they
will not be tungsten bulbs.
--
Misha
Click to expand...
--
http://tkis.com/wild-mike/

It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer -- Albert Einstein
 
The focus sensors aren't merely tiny points. Check out this picture that shows the 10D's viewfinder overlay and the "actual" focus sensors.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/uploaded-file?bboard_upload_id=14972084

Note that the 10D viewfinder has fairly substantial boxes to indicate the focus point wherease the 300D viewfinder uses tiny dots. In either case, you can see that the actual sensors are quite a lot larger than what is indicated in the viewfinder.

This means two things:

(1) If you happen to focus on something that takes up a very small part of the view, you can easily miss your target.

(2) If you focus on something that isn't flat perpendicular to your camera (i.e.: both your examples were sloping away from the camera), you are likely to get focus for the closest part of the sensor guaranteeing a slight focus miss! Yikes! (And, with a relatively small depth of field, that could spell real trouble.)

Number (2) might be the problem with your map picture. (I can't see the map in enough detail to determine anything.) Let me guess... the actual focus of the map is closer than where you were aiming? On the 10D camera I would set to use only the bottom focus point (which is horizontal in nature), set single-focus mode, half-press the fire button to focus on my intended target with the single bottom focus point, recompose the picture, and then fire.

Here's another interesting read about the focus issues: http://emedia.leeward.hawaii.edu/frary/canon_eos10d_03.htm
 
It does not matter if the card your reading from is white or grey, as long as it's pure white and pure grey.
mattias
Chris said:
Hangman said:
Chris said:
I've done pressed the shutter about 800 times before deciding that
it's probably the camera. The point is, that when e.g. using
automatic white balance, I want to get an approximately right
result. When it's important to get it exactly right, I can always
get the grey cards out. But, for that money I expect the camera to
do better than low end consumer models.
Click to expand...
Grey card is not going to help white balance. Set the white
balance manually. If it's important that you get it absolutely
right then use Custom White Balance it is explained in the manual.
Click to expand...
The backside of the grey cards is white although I have found that
in fact the whitebalance setting using the grey or the white side
gives very similar results (not for metering though, obviously)
Member said:
Member said:
As for focus, it's not that the camera doesn't produce sharp
photos. It does but not at the point is suppossed to focus on. I
used a manual focus 50/1.8 lens quite a bit last week and the
photos are very sharp.
Click to expand...
Are you still using the multi-point focusing? If so change to one
point only preferably center point. Don't use the fully auto
modes, if you want auto exposure use the "P" mode.
Click to expand...
multi-point and single point, also have done for the tests, result
is the same in that the focus is just not where indicated. Have
used P,M etc.
Member said:
It would be better if you could post some shots for the people here
to look at. There is a wealth of knowledge here on this forum try
to take advantage of it.
Click to expand...
just posted, see further down the thread.
Member said:
If you have tried those with no luck then by all means take it back
and ask for a new one.

Cheers
Steve
--
A machine is only as good as its operator.
http://www.pbase.com/hangman/galleries
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
----------------------------------------------------
My 300D photos:
http://www.pbase.com/matekb/300d
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/matekb
 
Acctually, I don't see much of a focus problem. Not in the dog photos anyway (the map is too dark to see anything). But, I can only view the small size version, and that one looks quite sharp to me, but on the other hand, a lot of photos look sharp in that kind of small picture. But I have to say that I don't think your setup are very good. You should have the camera aligned with the subject. Also, do you have some exif data? Were you handholding? The lighting seems not to be any good.
mattias
Chris said:
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ch_fischer

The one of the dog puzzle are about the WB. BTW, in that one, the
rebel was focused (in automatic with flash off) on the puzzle box
and even with the reduced size it's clearly out of focus.

The one with the map is an original, if you have a fast connection,
try . Compare tdownloading it and opening it in fileviewerhe focus
point with where the photo is in focus and all will be clear.
My connection is too slow but I get consistently out of focus shot
like the example.

Opinions?

Chris
Chris said:
Very disappointing, I'll have to return the 300D, it just doesn't
work! I HOPE that I've gotten a monday-morning model and this isn't
systematic.

The two issues are White Balance and Auto Focus. The automatic
white balance is extremely poor in anything but daylight, I've
never seen any digital camera that bad. I've tonight compared my
Sony F707, a Coolpix 3100 and a Sony U20. Same position, same
light, same tripod etc. all models in fully automatic (with and
without flash). The Sony F707 clearly the best but not one of them,
not even the cheapo u20 and 3100 as off as the 300D. Extremely
dissappointing. Only with flash the white balance of the 300D was
ok.
Much worse is the focus issue, the autofocus simply doesn't work.
Whether it's a problem with the (kit) lens or the camera, I can't
tell. In short, the focus points are not in focus, the focus nearly
always is somewhere a little further in the back. It consistently
doesn't work. And no, I am not speaking of camera shake etc., I
have mounted the camera on a tripod, have used the timer release
etc. and double and quadruple checked the focus point in file
viewer etc, set the lens to about 25mm. It simply doesn't work. and
since the in-focus area could always be found a little further back
in the photo, camera shake wasn't an option.

Did anyone else experience these problems?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
----------------------------------------------------
My 300D photos:
http://www.pbase.com/matekb/300d
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/matekb
 
Well, maybe it's not that evident, resized like this. The sony one was sharp, the 300D focused (as usual with mine) behind the subject and totally out of focus because of that, although it two focus points on the puzzle box indicated that it would be in focus. All the shots were with a tripod and timer release, either way, the focus is consistently so totally off that it's immediately obvious from the full size shots that the focus in incorrect.

As for the lighting, it sure isn't brilliant but it wasn't suppossed to be a studio. I just wanted the same conditions for all the shots and it sure was good enough for the two sony and the nikon ...
Mattias Ekberg said:
Chris said:
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ch_fischer

The one of the dog puzzle are about the WB. BTW, in that one, the
rebel was focused (in automatic with flash off) on the puzzle box
and even with the reduced size it's clearly out of focus.

The one with the map is an original, if you have a fast connection,
try . Compare tdownloading it and opening it in fileviewerhe focus
point with where the photo is in focus and all will be clear.
My connection is too slow but I get consistently out of focus shot
like the example.

Opinions?

Chris
Chris said:
Very disappointing, I'll have to return the 300D, it just doesn't
work! I HOPE that I've gotten a monday-morning model and this isn't
systematic.

The two issues are White Balance and Auto Focus. The automatic
white balance is extremely poor in anything but daylight, I've
never seen any digital camera that bad. I've tonight compared my
Sony F707, a Coolpix 3100 and a Sony U20. Same position, same
light, same tripod etc. all models in fully automatic (with and
without flash). The Sony F707 clearly the best but not one of them,
not even the cheapo u20 and 3100 as off as the 300D. Extremely
dissappointing. Only with flash the white balance of the 300D was
ok.
Much worse is the focus issue, the autofocus simply doesn't work.
Whether it's a problem with the (kit) lens or the camera, I can't
tell. In short, the focus points are not in focus, the focus nearly
always is somewhere a little further in the back. It consistently
doesn't work. And no, I am not speaking of camera shake etc., I
have mounted the camera on a tripod, have used the timer release
etc. and double and quadruple checked the focus point in file
viewer etc, set the lens to about 25mm. It simply doesn't work. and
since the in-focus area could always be found a little further back
in the photo, camera shake wasn't an option.

Did anyone else experience these problems?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
----------------------------------------------------
My 300D photos:
http://www.pbase.com/matekb/300d
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/matekb
Click to expand...
 
I know that, I've read it in the handbook also and it has crossed my mind. However, in my case the focus is basically always off. Portrait-style photos, almost totally flat subjects like the dog puzzle sample and others like the map, they're all washed out.

It has also occurred to me that it could be an issue of the accuracy either of the fields or of the AF. However, there is no reason for autofocus with huge DOF, everything is going to be in focus anyway. In the example of the map, the depth of field should have been in the order of 30cms or so, the actual focus was over 50cm behind the focusing points. That's not good enough.

Thanks for the other thread
Peter K Wagner said:
The focus sensors aren't merely tiny points. Check out this
picture that shows the 10D's viewfinder overlay and the "actual"
focus sensors.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/uploaded-file?bboard_upload_id=14972084

Note that the 10D viewfinder has fairly substantial boxes to
indicate the focus point wherease the 300D viewfinder uses tiny
dots. In either case, you can see that the actual sensors are
quite a lot larger than what is indicated in the viewfinder.

This means two things:
(1) If you happen to focus on something that takes up a very small
part of the view, you can easily miss your target.
(2) If you focus on something that isn't flat perpendicular to your
camera (i.e.: both your examples were sloping away from the
camera), you are likely to get focus for the closest part of the
sensor guaranteeing a slight focus miss! Yikes! (And, with a
relatively small depth of field, that could spell real trouble.)

Number (2) might be the problem with your map picture. (I can't
see the map in enough detail to determine anything.) Let me
guess... the actual focus of the map is closer than where you were
aiming? On the 10D camera I would set to use only the bottom focus
point (which is horizontal in nature), set single-focus mode,
half-press the fire button to focus on my intended target with the
single bottom focus point, recompose the picture, and then fire.

Here's another interesting read about the focus issues:
http://emedia.leeward.hawaii.edu/frary/canon_eos10d_03.htm
Click to expand...
 
Yes, DOF can explain part of it, as far as focusing goes. But I cannot check the autofocus with the lens stopped down too much, otherwise everything will be in focus anyway. I've done a few tests and for the same scene (from a tripod, timer release) with a single focus point, I needed to stop down the lens to f8.0 before the focus points started to be approximately in focus. At the given focus distance (about 1.5, the lens set to ca. 24mm) that's increasing the DOF from about 40 cm to about 100 cm. At f 4-8, the focus was is consistently well behind the focus points.

Chris
Daniella said:
but can you post samples so that we can see? you,re comparing DSLR
with non DSLR wich have very different DOF..could be that simple
issue.

as for the white balance..we need to see the samples.
Chris said:
Very disappointing, I'll have to return the 300D, it just doesn't
work! I HOPE that I've gotten a monday-morning model and this isn't
systematic.

The two issues are White Balance and Auto Focus. The automatic
white balance is extremely poor in anything but daylight, I've
never seen any digital camera that bad. I've tonight compared my
Sony F707, a Coolpix 3100 and a Sony U20. Same position, same
light, same tripod etc. all models in fully automatic (with and
without flash). The Sony F707 clearly the best but not one of them,
not even the cheapo u20 and 3100 as off as the 300D. Extremely
dissappointing. Only with flash the white balance of the 300D was
ok.
Much worse is the focus issue, the autofocus simply doesn't work.
Whether it's a problem with the (kit) lens or the camera, I can't
tell. In short, the focus points are not in focus, the focus nearly
always is somewhere a little further in the back. It consistently
doesn't work. And no, I am not speaking of camera shake etc., I
have mounted the camera on a tripod, have used the timer release
etc. and double and quadruple checked the focus point in file
viewer etc, set the lens to about 25mm. It simply doesn't work. and
since the in-focus area could always be found a little further back
in the photo, camera shake wasn't an option.

Did anyone else experience these problems?
Click to expand...
--
Daniella
main gallery: http://www.infrareddream.com
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=26918
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
C7OO FORUM: http://www.c700uz.com
c7OOuz, Dimage-7, Tcon14tele, C210tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND,
Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya_R_72.
Click to expand...
 
Well folks....

It's a pitty but I will waite for a couple of months before I decide to buy this camera! To many "pre"-problems on this 300D.

By the way, WB is nearly the most important issue for a serious photographer....hmmmmm.
I.ve also studied several pictures taken with the 18-55 mm kit-lens.
Terrible!!!

Regards, Arno
 
AHB said:
By the way, WB is nearly the most important issue for a serious
photographer....hmmmmm.
Click to expand...
"Serious" photographers work in raw, and WB is not at all an issue to them. Very easy to adjust the raw images.
AHB said:
I.ve also studied several pictures taken with the 18-55 mm kit-lens.
Terrible!!!
Click to expand...
Guess it depends on who is taking the picture of what. I have seen plenty of good pics from this lens.

--
Later,

Jeff
 
Chris said:
Very disappointing, I'll have to return the 300D, it just doesn't
work! I HOPE that I've gotten a monday-morning model and this isn't
systematic.

The two issues are White Balance and Auto Focus. The automatic
white balance is extremely poor in anything but daylight, I've
never seen any digital camera that bad. I've tonight compared my
Sony F707, a Coolpix 3100 and a Sony U20. Same position, same
light, same tripod etc. all models in fully automatic (with and
without flash). The Sony F707 clearly the best but not one of them,
not even the cheapo u20 and 3100 as off as the 300D. Extremely
dissappointing. Only with flash the white balance of the 300D was
ok.
Much worse is the focus issue, the autofocus simply doesn't work.
Whether it's a problem with the (kit) lens or the camera, I can't
tell. In short, the focus points are not in focus, the focus nearly
always is somewhere a little further in the back. It consistently
doesn't work. And no, I am not speaking of camera shake etc., I
have mounted the camera on a tripod, have used the timer release
etc. and double and quadruple checked the focus point in file
viewer etc, set the lens to about 25mm. It simply doesn't work. and
since the in-focus area could always be found a little further back
in the photo, camera shake wasn't an option.

Did anyone else experience these problems?
Click to expand...
--Hi Cris...

Don,t expect to get an honest answer. Seems like those "Pros" herein feel the is no problem. I just brought one four or five days ago and I will tell you ...auto focus is erratic. It's to sensitive due to the number of focus points and takes more than a bit to get used to it (not that I have).

Forget any automatic mode. To get better results one needs to move into the "adjustment" modes. My vote is still out on this piece of equipment. Good luck..

Old ex-Polaroid Employee
 
Chris said:
Very disappointing, I'll have to return the 300D, it just doesn't
work! I HOPE that I've gotten a monday-morning model and this isn't
systematic.

The two issues are White Balance and Auto Focus. The automatic
white balance is extremely poor in anything but daylight, I've
never seen any digital camera that bad. I've tonight compared my
Sony F707, a Coolpix 3100 and a Sony U20. Same position, same
light, same tripod etc. all models in fully automatic (with and
without flash). The Sony F707 clearly the best but not one of them,
not even the cheapo u20 and 3100 as off as the 300D. Extremely
dissappointing. Only with flash the white balance of the 300D was
ok.
Much worse is the focus issue, the autofocus simply doesn't work.
Whether it's a problem with the (kit) lens or the camera, I can't
tell. In short, the focus points are not in focus, the focus nearly
always is somewhere a little further in the back. It consistently
doesn't work. And no, I am not speaking of camera shake etc., I
have mounted the camera on a tripod, have used the timer release
etc. and double and quadruple checked the focus point in file
viewer etc, set the lens to about 25mm. It simply doesn't work. and
since the in-focus area could always be found a little further back
in the photo, camera shake wasn't an option.

Did anyone else experience these problems?
Click to expand...
I've generally done light balance corrections in Photoshop 7.01, haven't payed a lot of attention to the white balance, even with the Sony Mavica I had been using.

I do notice a broader spectrum spread on auto white balance on the digital rebel.

On autofocus, I have shifted to the center point only when I use it, and most shots I use manual focus. I appreciate the ability to switch to it so easily, the Sony was a pain in that respect. The multipoint focus tends to shift focus to who knows where spastically.
Jim
 
Dr Lands Fan said:
Chris wrote:
Don,t expect to get an honest answer. Seems like those "Pros"
herein feel the is no problem. I just brought one four or five
days ago and I will tell you ...auto focus is erratic. It's to
sensitive due to the number of focus points and takes more than a
bit to get used to it (not that I have).
Click to expand...
Not sure how to be more honest ...there is either a problem with your camera or the lens ...or both
OR ...more likely according to percentages:

There is a problem with the user (and not an issue witht he camera) ...which if you follow many of the instances of new users experiening problems and then overcomming them after a learning period has proven to be the situation in the majority of instances. And then I am sure that there have been instances where new users thought they had problems and exchanged the camera for no reason. There is probably a percentage of users that were the problem (and not the camera) that decided not to use the camera and returned it rather than exchanging it.

So what is dishonest about that answer???
Dr Lands Fan said:
Forget any automatic mode. To get better results one needs to move
into the "adjustment" modes. My vote is still out on this piece of
equipment. Good luck..

Old ex-Polaroid Employee
Click to expand...
--
http://tkis.com/wild-mike/

It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer -- Albert Einstein
 
I actually like the kit lens, especially, it's great value for money. I doubt very much that there is a problem with the lens in my case.

I disagree about the white balance issue though. Working in raw is a personal choice and it's not mine because I like to keep postprocessing to an absolute minimum because I found over the last few years that I don't really need it much. More annoying is the fact that even cheapo cameras seem to be having much better White balance. This is my 5-th digital camera, my first was a F505 in 99 and that was already much better ... so, it's not about not being able to correct it, it's about having bought an expensive camera that has a WB algorithm which is years behind.

Chris
Jeff_S said:
AHB said:
By the way, WB is nearly the most important issue for a serious
photographer....hmmmmm.
Click to expand...
"Serious" photographers work in raw, and WB is not at all an issue
to them. Very easy to adjust the raw images.
Jeff_S said:
I.ve also studied several pictures taken with the 18-55 mm kit-lens.
Terrible!!!
Click to expand...
Guess it depends on who is taking the picture of what. I have seen
plenty of good pics from this lens.

--
Later,

Jeff
Click to expand...
 
the focusing problem I have is not due to the multi-point focus. Behaviour is the same for single point: Focus is not at all where it is suppossed to be but always somewhat further away from the camera

Chris
jim williams said:
Chris said:
Very disappointing, I'll have to return the 300D, it just doesn't
work! I HOPE that I've gotten a monday-morning model and this isn't
systematic.

The two issues are White Balance and Auto Focus. The automatic
white balance is extremely poor in anything but daylight, I've
never seen any digital camera that bad. I've tonight compared my
Sony F707, a Coolpix 3100 and a Sony U20. Same position, same
light, same tripod etc. all models in fully automatic (with and
without flash). The Sony F707 clearly the best but not one of them,
not even the cheapo u20 and 3100 as off as the 300D. Extremely
dissappointing. Only with flash the white balance of the 300D was
ok.
Much worse is the focus issue, the autofocus simply doesn't work.
Whether it's a problem with the (kit) lens or the camera, I can't
tell. In short, the focus points are not in focus, the focus nearly
always is somewhere a little further in the back. It consistently
doesn't work. And no, I am not speaking of camera shake etc., I
have mounted the camera on a tripod, have used the timer release
etc. and double and quadruple checked the focus point in file
viewer etc, set the lens to about 25mm. It simply doesn't work. and
since the in-focus area could always be found a little further back
in the photo, camera shake wasn't an option.

Did anyone else experience these problems?
Click to expand...
I've generally done light balance corrections in Photoshop 7.01,
haven't payed a lot of attention to the white balance, even with
the Sony Mavica I had been using.

I do notice a broader spectrum spread on auto white balance on the
digital rebel.

On autofocus, I have shifted to the center point only when I use
it, and most shots I use manual focus. I appreciate the ability to
switch to it so easily, the Sony was a pain in that respect. The
multipoint focus tends to shift focus to who knows where
spastically.
Jim
Click to expand...
 
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