Continued discussion -- Sunny 16 rule

In its current form it cannot be older than 1960 when the ASA specification changed. At that time all ratings were doubled, so 100ASA film was re-rated as 200ASA with no change in the film. Before 1960 you would have set the shutter speed to 1/ twice the box ASA to get the same exposure, or use f/22 instead of f/16.
That's what I was thinking, as film speed definitions didn't stabilize until quite late in history.
It wouldn't surprise me if “the early years of photography” is 1990s - 2000s for the phrase “Sunny 16”.
According to Google books search, the earliest occurrence of the phrase "sunny 16 rule" is in 1980, by George Thomas Yeamans, and it was frequently repeated throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

This does not mean that the rule didn't appear in magazines, newsletters, or in conversations before 1980, or in some book not digitized and indexed by Google, nor does it mean that some variation of the phrase wasn't used, although searching for "sunny sixteen" or "rule of sunny 16" didn't come up with anything earlier.

I couldn't find anything before 1980 that referred to "sunny 22" but of course that isn't proof that the rule didn't exist

*****

There is an interesting rule of thumb from the old days, the "One, Three, Five, and Double Rule" or "1-3-5-10 rule" for outdoor exposure. Basically, take the shutter speed settings needed for a bright sunny day, and multiply that by 3 for a hazy day, 5 for a cloudy day, and 10 for an overcast day. This is found in American Photography, Volume 19, from the year 1925. Obviously this doesn't tell you what all your settings ought to be, but if you already have a good exposure for one, you can guess the others. It was noted that these values weren't quite accurate, but close enough.

Tabulated exposure values, such as found in a Wikipedia article, have a somewhat different series, 1-2-4-8, which gives a fractional stop difference of exposure from the 1-3-5-10 rule in each cloudy situation. The 1-2-4-8 rule is what's found printed inside of many Kodak film cartons, although there are variations—sometimes the "2" for hazy conditions is omitted, or sometimes varying shutter speeds are shown, with faster speeds for sunny conditions, or sunny beaches and snow.
 
In its current form it cannot be older than 1960 when the ASA specification changed. At that time all ratings were doubled, so 100ASA film was re-rated as 200ASA with no change in the film. Before 1960 you would have set the shutter speed to 1/ twice the box ASA to get the same exposure, or use f/22 instead of f/16.
That's what I was thinking, as film speed definitions didn't stabilize until quite late in history.
It wouldn't surprise me if “the early years of photography” is 1990s - 2000s for the phrase “Sunny 16”.
According to Google books search, the earliest occurrence of the phrase "sunny 16 rule" is in 1980, by George Thomas Yeamans, and it was frequently repeated throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

This does not mean that the rule didn't appear in magazines, newsletters, or in conversations before 1980, or in some book not digitized and indexed by Google, nor does it mean that some variation of the phrase wasn't used, although searching for "sunny sixteen" or "rule of sunny 16" didn't come up with anything earlier.

I couldn't find anything before 1980 that referred to "sunny 22" but of course that isn't proof that the rule didn't exist
In the old days when I had one 35mm SLR I used to just use the meter - I’ve actually found Sunny 16 to be more useful as I’m using a number of different cameras, each with their own metering methods.
*****

There is an interesting rule of thumb from the old days, the "One, Three, Five, and Double Rule" or "1-3-5-10 rule" for outdoor exposure. Basically, take the shutter speed settings needed for a bright sunny day, and multiply that by 3 for a hazy day, 5 for a cloudy day, and 10 for an overcast day. This is found in American Photography, Volume 19, from the year 1925. Obviously this doesn't tell you what all your settings ought to be, but if you already have a good exposure for one, you can guess the others. It was noted that these values weren't quite accurate, but close enough.
That’s interesting - you see in old cameras that they can have very different shutter speeds to today, so the original Leica M3 has 1-2-5-10-25-50-100-250-500-1000, and my Agfa Standard has 2-5-25-50-100. The earlier Leicas (iiif etc) has different intermediate values
Tabulated exposure values, such as found in a Wikipedia article, have a somewhat different series, 1-2-4-8, which gives a fractional stop difference of exposure from the 1-3-5-10 rule in each cloudy situation. The 1-2-4-8 rule is what's found printed inside of many Kodak film cartons, although there are variations—sometimes the "2" for hazy conditions is omitted, or sometimes varying shutter speeds are shown, with faster speeds for sunny conditions, or sunny beaches and snow.
 
... though when I'm shooting, I'd still much rather trust a meter than this sort of estimate thing, even if it tends to work pretty well. I just wound't want to take a chance with it, particularly if I were shooting film, which is expensive and has less exposure latitude. I suppose though if I were shooting film and the meter in my camera (or handheld thing) were to fail, then I'd be using this sunny 16 rule thing...
 
The higher the exposure - amount of light that hits the sensor per unit area - the higher the SNR will be.
Yes, we know all that. :) I don't think you have wrapped your head around the idea behind Sunny 16, though -- it's not about setting exposure at f/16, it's about understanding scene luminance.
I have no need at all for the Sunny 16 "rule" since it will rarely maximise the exposure for me within my DOF and motion blur requirements and without clipping important highlights.
How do you think the Sunny 16 "guideline" would fail to let you maximize your exposure?

Aaron
 
I had example today where I used Sunny 16.
Funnily enough, so did I! I shot a scene with a couple of film cameras and my digicam. Bright sunlight and some bright-colored buildings. The meter showed EV15. Oddly enough, all of the film camera meters were a little thrown off. Most accurate in-camera meter with me that day was the Sony a6000, and when I widened to 18mm, selected Av, ISO 100, and f/16, guess what the shutter speed was? Yep, 1/100.

Zooming in threw off even the Sony's meter, but the Sunny 16 "rule" came to the rescue. (And no, I didn't shoot everything at 1/100 @ f/16.)

Aaron
 
Why are we still talking about this in 2021? Because is so happens that our digital cameras have a stated base ISO of 100 and this fits? Just in case anyone would want to use their camera in full manual without metering?

The film that made this setting popular, so popular that it's now become a rule of thumb of sorts is the Kodacolor II, rated at 100 ISO. but really you could just as well call it sunny 11.

c31559ac280644b7bc0e24b655d89e51.jpg

Different films had a different sunny rule.

Kodachrome II was sunny 5.6.

f62d713313eb41599bd9fd88c5ea82c2.jpg

Kodak PanX was sunny 8

31c04a1a1d4443c09c5aec58ad617971.jpg

Small apertures were good for snapshots, f/16 kept everything in focus from like 10 feet from the camera to infinity. Kodak made films and cameras for the masses, packed them with simple instructions. There's really nothing complicated about it. Cameras with set aperture and shutter speed, like the Kodak Brownie would just work without any fancy math at all. Just push the button. See here:

Why I Still Shoot with a Vintage Kodak Brownie Hawkeye Film Camera | Shutterbug

--
‘You don’t take a photograph, you make it.’ - Ansel Adams
 
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The higher the exposure - amount of light that hits the sensor per unit area - the higher the SNR will be.
Yes, we know all that. :)
But there might be some first time visitors to DPR who might not be aware of that.
I don't think you have wrapped your head around the idea behind Sunny 16, though -- it's not about setting exposure at f/16, it's about understanding scene luminance.
No-one is saying it is limited to f/16, so I am not sure what you are rambling on about.
I have no need at all for the Sunny 16 "rule" since it will rarely maximise the exposure for me within my DOF and motion blur requirements and without clipping important highlights.
How do you think the Sunny 16 "guideline" would fail to let you maximize your exposure?
I have answered that question several times in previous threads but thank you for giving me the opportunity to answer it again.

Sunny 16 has no idea whatsoever what my motion blur and DOF requirements are for any particular scene.

My aim is to maximise the exposure - amount of light that hits the sensor per unit area - within my DOF and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights.

Maximising the exposure maximises the SNR resulting in minimising the visible noise since it is a low SNR that creates noise.

I maximise the exposure by setting the widest aperture that gives me the DOF I want and the slowest shutter speed that meets my motion blur requirements. I then let the camera set ISO where it believes will produce the most appropriate image lightness.

If the camera's histogram shows I still have highlight headroom then I raise ISO because my aperture and shutter speed are already at their widest and slowest for my DOF and motion blur.

I can adjust the image lightness in post but obviously cannot adjust the exposure in post.

Consequently Sunny 16 is pointless and of no relevance to me at all.

In 99% of situations, Sunny 16 will not give me the shutter speed I need to meet my motion blur requirements.

I have no experience photographing with film but reading through what early days film users have posted I can see how it might have been used as a guide back then.
 
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I have no need at all for the Sunny 16 "rule" since it will rarely maximise the exposure for me within my DOF and motion blur requirements and without clipping important highlights.
How do you think the Sunny 16 "guideline" would fail to let you maximize your exposure?
After my previous post, perhaps you could attempt to enlighten me, and anyone else interested, on how you believe Sunny 16 will always maximise the exposure - amount of light that hits the sensor per unit area - given any set of DOF and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights.
 
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I have posted on many occasions that one of my main aims is to maximise the signal to noise ratio in the shadows which then results in minimising the visible noise since it is a low SNR that creates noise.

The higher the exposure - amount of light that hits the sensor per unit area - the higher the SNR will be.

I have no need at all for the Sunny 16 "rule" since it will rarely maximise the exposure for me within my DOF and motion blur requirements and without clipping important highlights.

That is why I prefer by default to use Manual + Auto ISO to maximise the exposure.
But [devil's advocate] how do you prevent an exposure that is too high?
As I, bobn2, FingerPainter et al have posted on numerous occasions, if the camera sets base ISO, when in Manual + Auto ISO, and the meter says there is still too much light hitting the sensor then obviously I have to compromise either my DOF or motion blur.

If there is no movement in the scene, the choice is a no-brainer and I set a faster shutter speed.
This illustrates a significant evolution from how photography was practiced what, 150 years ago when Sunny 16 rose to the fore, and how its practiced today.*

*Is there a documented first use of the phrase of rule? All I've found are a couple of references to it dating back to "the early years of photography" with no source cited.
In its current form it cannot be older than 1960 when the ASA specification changed. At that time all ratings were doubled, so 100ASA film was re-rated as 200ASA with no change in the film. Before 1960 you would have set the shutter speed to 1/ twice the box ASA to get the same exposure, or use f/22 instead of f/16.

It wouldn't surprise me if “the early years of photography” is 1990s - 2000s for the phrase “Sunny 16”.

The above linked discussion dates Sunny 16 back at least to the 1930s, if not earlier.
 
..... Most accurate in-camera meter with me that day was the Sony a6000, and when I widened to 18mm, selected Av, ISO 100, and f/16, guess what the shutter speed was? Yep, 1/100.
Aperture priority and setting ISO first is also what I used to do before joining DPR forums.

But I often found myself fiddling with ISO until I got the shutter speed I wanted for my motion blur requirement for the shot.

So, since I knew the aperture and shutter speed I wanted I thought to myself why fiddle around with ISO when I can just lock in the aperture and shutter speed I want and then let the camera set the image lightness with ISO.

Manual + Auto ISO gives me the benefits of both aperture and shutter priorities simultaneously to maximise the exposure as described earlier without having to fiddle toggling modes and/or fiddling with ISO, and all without wasting time thinking about Sunny 16.
 
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In its current form it cannot be older than 1960 when the ASA specification changed. At that time all ratings were doubled, so 100ASA film was re-rated as 200ASA with no change in the film. Before 1960 you would have set the shutter speed to 1/ twice the box ASA to get the same exposure, or use f/22 instead of f/16.

It wouldn't surprise me if “the early years of photography” is 1990s - 2000s for the phrase “Sunny 16”.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/archive/index.php/t-115038.html

The above linked discussion dates Sunny 16 back at least to the 1930s, if not earlier.
Obviously “rules” for setting exposure would have existed since the very first photograph (if only in the photographers log book), but in its specific form as stated “Sunny 16” must date from after the ASA change in 1960 (or the numbers don’t work). They do allude to that on the discussion with a “Sunny 11” being more accurate.
 
I had example today where I used Sunny 16.
Funnily enough, so did I! I shot a scene with a couple of film cameras and my digicam. Bright sunlight and some bright-colored buildings. The meter showed EV15. Oddly enough, all of the film camera meters were a little thrown off. Most accurate in-camera meter with me that day was the Sony a6000, and when I widened to 18mm, selected Av, ISO 100, and f/16, guess what the shutter speed was? Yep, 1/100.

Zooming in threw off even the Sony's meter, but the Sunny 16 "rule" came to the rescue. (And no, I didn't shoot everything at 1/100 @ f/16.)

Aaron
It's IMO not really the discussion whether you couldn't use Sunny 16 given your experience with it and in situations were you lack an adequate in-camera meter. But once again the easy situation [EV15] is given as an example and not the more difficult, because depending on user interpretation, situations with e.g. some cloud or some haze.

And I've yet to see a reply to my basic query: why should Sunny 16 be preferred as a teaching tool for beginners *) over what their cameras provide?

*) I'll define as a beginner someone who uses A mode [or P] and wants to get better control or at least better understanding
 
I had example today where I used Sunny 16.
Funnily enough, so did I! I shot a scene with a couple of film cameras and my digicam. Bright sunlight and some bright-colored buildings. The meter showed EV15. Oddly enough, all of the film camera meters were a little thrown off. Most accurate in-camera meter with me that day was the Sony a6000, and when I widened to 18mm, selected Av, ISO 100, and f/16, guess what the shutter speed was? Yep, 1/100.

Zooming in threw off even the Sony's meter, but the Sunny 16 "rule" came to the rescue. (And no, I didn't shoot everything at 1/100 @ f/16.)

Aaron
It's IMO not really the discussion whether you couldn't use Sunny 16 given your experience with it and in situations were you lack an adequate in-camera meter. But once again the easy situation [EV15] is given as an example and not the more difficult, because depending on user interpretation, situations with e.g. some cloud or some haze.

And I've yet to see a reply to my basic query: why should Sunny 16 be preferred as a teaching tool for beginners *) over what their cameras provide?

*) I'll define as a beginner someone who uses A mode [or P] and wants to get better control or at least better understanding
On the few times I’ve introduced people to using a camera I’ve told them to put it into (what Ken Rockwell calls) “Professional” mode ( P ), and then concentrate on the thing that really matters, which is the thing that is in the viewfinder. With modern cameras and their automatics that will get one what one wants 99%+ of the time. Everything else is secondary.
 
Why are we still talking about this in 2021?
Why not? We talk about lots of things.
Because is so happens that our digital cameras have a stated base ISO of 100 and this fits?
Sunny 16 is not tied to ISO 100. It applies to any ISO (ASA).
Different films had a different sunny rule.
No, they didn't. They were all Sunny 16 compatible as long as they were ASA rated.
Kodachrome II was sunny 5.6.
No.
Kodak PanX was sunny 8
No.

You are not understanding the purpose of Sunny 16 or how to apply it. It absolutely does not mean you always use a shutter speed of 1/125s, nor does it mean you always use an aperture of f/16.

f/16 was part of the 'rule' (which is actually just a handy mnemonic) because it happens that when ISO (ASA) is set to any number, the suggested shutter speed for a sunlit scene is approximately the reciprocal of that number if the aperture is f/16. That's it.

The aperture doesn't have to be f/16, though. Using other apertures just means switching to the appropriate shutter speed that offsets the difference between f/16 and the aperture you prefer to use.
 
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On the few times I’ve introduced people to using a camera I’ve told them to put it into (what Ken Rockwell calls) “Professional” mode ( P ),
I thought P mode was Pointless mode because only when I want a happy snap will it give me what I want.
and then concentrate on the thing that really matters, which is the thing that is in the viewfinder. With modern cameras and their automatics that will get one what one wants 99%+ of the time.
Only when I want a happy snap of something.
Everything else is secondary.
For me, composition and then maximising the exposure - amount of light that hits the sensor per unit area - within my DOF and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights is primary.
 
For me, composition and then maximising the exposure - amount of light that hits the sensor per unit area - within my DOF and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights is primary.
That's a misunderstanding of the rule. It's already been explained what it gives you is an EV. You can pick whatever aperture or SS you want that gives you that EV. You can adjust all you want.

Sunny 16 if nothing else is a sanity test on your camera meter. Pick up an old camera . Point it outside and compare the meter reading with Sunny 16. If it's widely off you know there is a problem.

With a known good camera you can still today at times fool the meter. Sunny 16 lets you catch that.

Yes you can chimp. A monkey can hammer keys. Having at least a vague idea of what is going on can't be a bad thing.
 
I haven't misunderstood the rule.

I explained why I have no need for Sunny 16 to maximise the exposure as described in earlier posts.

Perhaps you could also enlighten me on the question I posed earlier asking Autonerd to show how he believes Sunny 16 will always maximise the exposure as I described earlier.
 
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For me, composition and then maximising the exposure - amount of light that hits the sensor per unit area - within my DOF and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights is primary.
That's a misunderstanding of the rule. It's already been explained what it gives you is an EV. You can pick whatever aperture or SS you want that gives you that EV. You can adjust all you want.

Sunny 16 if nothing else is a sanity test on your camera meter. Pick up an old camera . Point it outside and compare the meter reading with Sunny 16. If it's widely off you know there is a problem.
That sanity check came in handy in film days as people with older SLRs that used mercury batteries ended up using a similar fit alkaline or silver cell as mercury cells were withdrawn from manufacture. The different voltage cell gave wackily wrong meter readings. Sunny 16 helped get things back on track.
With a known good camera you can still today at times fool the meter. Sunny 16 lets you catch that.

Yes you can chimp. A monkey can hammer keys. Having at least a vague idea of what is going on can't be a bad thing.
 
On the few times I’ve introduced people to using a camera I’ve told them to put it into (what Ken Rockwell calls) “Professional” mode ( P ),
I thought P mode was Pointless mode because only when I want a happy snap will it give me what I want.
I’m presuming you’re using “Happy Snap” as a pejorative ?
and then concentrate on the thing that really matters, which is the thing that is in the viewfinder. With modern cameras and their automatics that will get one what one wants 99%+ of the time.
Only when I want a happy snap of something.
Everything else is secondary.
For me, composition and then maximising the exposure - amount of light that hits the sensor per unit area - within my DOF and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights is primary.
For me composition is primary. You can take a perfectly exposed photo of a brick wall ( I do this quite a lot ) but for most people that is not interesting. The composition may then drive certain behaviours - DOF, shutter speed etc.
 
In the old days if you did a classic bridal photo you knew to put the dress in Zone VIII to maintain detail. AKA three stops above mid gray.

Was that the question you wanted answered? How to avoid blowing out the highlights while exposing to the max?

It was harder in the past because paper limited you far more than modern displays do.
 

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