Advise on a non-Leica system

Vikas M Gore · Mar 22, 2021

I have been a Leica user for years and I’m likely to remain so. My wife, who doesn’t see herself as a photo enthusiast, has been using a C-Lux. She actually has a really good eye and I’ve been suggesting that she should use a more capable camera. However she likes to range from wide angle to longish telephoto but absolutely refuses change lenses. So Leica options like the CL are out.

However Nikon and Sony both have relatively light cameras with 24-200 or 24-240 lenses (as does Canon) and she thinks one of these may work for her. My question is sure to attract strong opinions but please understand I’m unfamiliar with all three systems and I’m just researching the system to make a decision. Here’s the question:

Is either of the three camera/lens combinations better than the other? Reading reviews I get the impression that the Nikon 24-200 lens is better that Sony’s 24-240 and that both are better than Canon’s 24-240. There is also the Tamron lens for the Sony of course. Sony has a much more extensive lens system so that’s could be an obvious choice but since, for the present, this is likely to see use only as a single camera+lens combination that is not a significant consideration.

I will probably go with a 45m or higher resolution sensor because with some cropping she could effectively have a 300mm reach with a still very good resolution.

Any advise welcome

SK_photography · Mar 23, 2021

I'm sure you've probably done the camerasize.com thing, but here it is. All the systems are quite bulky, when you include the "all-in-one" zoom lens. A lovely CL kit with two lenses would be so much nicer to carry ...

Comparison of camera sizes

S.

enrique santa · Mar 24, 2021

Hi Vikas. Take a look at the Fujifilm XE3 or E4 + 18-135 . It would be a nice combo.

Cheers

Vikas M Gore · Mar 24, 2021

SK_photography said:
I'm sure you've probably done the camerasize.com thing, but here it is. All the systems are quite bulky, when you include the "all-in-one" zoom lens. A lovely CL kit with two lenses would be so much nicer to carry ...

Comparison of camera sizes

S.

Yes, I agree that the CL is a much more compact and I use it all the time. I have done that camerasize comparison (BTW, your link shows a C-Lux rather than a CL!) but a view of all three options and the CL next to them is one I have not shown my wife so far. I think I should do that before I actually pull the trigger on this and buy anything!

Following Enrique's comment I also looked at the the Fujifilm X-T4 with the 18-135 lens which looks great, though I'd still go with the CL if it was for me!

Loading…

camerasize.com

Vikas M Gore · Mar 24, 2021

enrique santa said:
Hi Vikas. Take a look at the Fujifilm XE3 or E4 + 18-135 . It would be a nice combo.

Cheers

Thanks for that. I'd forgotten to include that option but it certainly looks like a compelling one! The sensor is not quite in the same league as the Sony/Nikon/Canon FF sensors, but it may just do the trick.

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- Vikas

Strangefinder · Mar 24, 2021

Vikas M Gore said:
enrique santa said:

Hi Vikas. Take a look at the Fujifilm XE3 or E4 + 18-135 . It would be a nice combo.

Cheers

Click to expand...

Thanks for that. I'd forgotten to include that option but it certainly looks like a compelling one! The sensor is not quite in the same league as the Sony/Nikon/Canon FF sensors, but it may just do the trick.

Some notes and cautions:

Fuji is always my default recommendation due to their quality lenses; readymade jpgs; intuitive interface/controls; and charming, lightweight formfactor, however, the XF18-135mmF3.5-5.6 is older and generally considered Fuji’s "worst lens" (of XF) and it has recently been superseded in travel kits by the shorter, constant F/4 XF16-80mmF4.

Having said that, I’m primarily a prime shooter, and have no experience with it at all, and it may well be brilliant for the use-case. I used to have the consumer-grade ("XC") XC50-230mmF?-6.7 (not even an "XF" X-Fujinon) and was stunned when it clearly outperformed the Olympus 40-150mmF2.8 when photographing the full moon one evening :/

CameraSize is very handy and I use it often, but does need cross-checking closer to decision-time. For instance, the L-mount options are incomplete and inconsistent across different cameras even of the same brand (the 24-105mmF4 is absent for some newer cameras despite being in the database for the same system). The 55-135mm f/3.5-4.5 APO-Vario-Elmar-TL is actually longer than the XF18-135mmF3.5-5.6. From this image, you can see that it flares beyond the perimeter of the mount, whereas in the line-up it’s shown flush with the mount (though, not as serious a difference as some).

I’d still recommend the 24-105mmF4 since it’s in L mount, but otherwise Fuji is a very solid option.

Someone mentioned sensor-stack thickness. I understand that the S1R (and probably the S5/S1) has 1.45mm, which surpasses Sony and Canon, but falls behind Nikon, with Leica and Sigma being the best with 1.2mm and 1.3mm respectively (not sure of the sources for these numbers, however.) Not that it’s the full story - with software corrections, aspherical micro-lenses etc.

--
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.” Malcolm X
“Remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible. But in the end, they always fall. Always.” Gandhi

Vikas M Gore · Mar 24, 2021

Thanks again. You're a wonderful mine of information.

I assume you meant the Panasonic 24-105 f4. Actually that mounted on a CL would range approximately from 35-157 - a useful range but probably not enough for my wife's needs.

I'm actually familiar with the Fuji 18-135 lens - I used to own an X-T2 and that was one of my lenses. You're right, it's not their best lens. I used the 18-55 f2.8-4 a lot more. I like the prospect of an X-T4. I wish more manufacturers made cameras with separate control dials for shutter speed, exposure compensation, and ISO, with aperture controls on lenses.

At any rate I will discuss that as an option. I think it's a choice between that and the Nikon with the 24-200. The advantage of the latter is that with a 45MP sensor you can do an APS-C crop and get a 300mm telephoto reach with 30MP. That combination weighs about 175g more than the X-T4 and it's a choice she can make.

Vikas M Gore · Mar 24, 2021

I want to thank everyone for the help and I know that for some of you it must have taken a lot of time and effort. I have now made a purchase.

In case anyone is interested in the process here is how the decision was reached, and if you are not interested, let me just say thank you once more!

The Canon was ruled out because of poor reviews of the lens. I am equally new to both the Nikon and Canon systems but everything I’ve read so far points to the Nikon lens being better.
The Sony was was dropped partly because I have not liked the Sony interface too much whenever I’ve tried, borrowing cameras from a couple of friends. Also it is a relatively heavier combination, though not by a huge margin.
In the end it was a choice between the Nikon Z7 II with the 24-200 lens and what had till the end been the outlier - the FujiFilm X-T4 with the 18-135 lens. I’m familiar with FujiFilm cameras and lenses from a few years back and have a lot of respect for them. However this particular lens is not one of their best. The one I previously had did the job but I never really took to it. Physically the zoom ring stiffened as I zoomed out and it just didn’t feel as well put together as the other Fuji lenses.
In the end, faced with the options and having narrowed them down to the FujiFilm and Nikon, my dear wife said “Well, if I decide I don’t want to use the new camera which would you like better as an additional camera?”

Left with a generous proposal like that, my choice was not a surprise for me. The Nikon Z7ii with a 24-200 lens has now been ordered. Part of me hopes she hates it :-D

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- Vikas

Jay OC · Mar 24, 2021

You may want to check out Nikon Cafe. They have some active members there that do good work. They can provide any guidance you may want about the Nikon system. Some of the better members have drunk the Z7 kool-aid and are fully immersed into the system.

I make an appearance in there from time to time.

Vikas M Gore · Mar 24, 2021

Jay OC said:
You may want to check out Nikon Cafe. They have some active members there that do good work. They can provide any guidance you may want about the Nikon system. Some of the better members have drunk the Z7 kool-aid and are fully immersed into the system.

I make an appearance in there from time to time.

Thank you. I’ve just registered.

Strangefinder · Mar 25, 2021

Vikas M Gore said:
Thanks again. You're a wonderful mine of information.

Very kind of you; moreso with the gravity of an esteemed mainstay of the forum.

Vikas M Gore said:
I assume you meant the Panasonic 24-105 f4. Actually that mounted on a CL would range approximately from 35-157 - a useful range but probably not enough for my wife's needs.

I'm actually familiar with the Fuji 18-135 lens - I used to own an X-T2 and that was one of my lenses. You're right, it's not their best lens. I used the 18-55 f2.8-4 a lot more. I like the prospect of an X-T4. I wish more manufacturers made cameras with separate control dials for shutter speed, exposure compensation, and ISO, with aperture controls on lenses.

At any rate I will discuss that as an option. I think it's a choice between that and the Nikon with the 24-200. The advantage of the latter is that with a 45MP sensor you can do an APS-C crop and get a 300mm telephoto reach with 30MP. That combination weighs about 175g more than the X-T4 and it's a choice she can make.

A comprehensively satisfying pairing - you may have chosen too well, with less playtime left for you! We can only hope that your wife is difficult to please

Vikas M Gore · Apr 2, 2021

A final update.

The Nikon Z7 II arrived and so did the Nikkor 24-200mm lens. I shot a couple of initial photos with it and, just for fun, similar shots with a Leica SL2 with a 24-90mm lens.

The bad news is that my wife seems to like it :-( so my access will be limited! The good news is I really like my Leica.

Two pictures in similar conditions. The Nikkor lens at 105mm and the Vario-Elmarit at 90mm, each focused at their closest distance. The Leica image looks larger because the Leica lens focuses a lot closer. Both straight from their cameras via Lightroom mobile on an iPad.

Nikon Z7 II

Leica SL2

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- Vikas

Jay OC · Apr 2, 2021

Glad she likes it. Once the new has worn off, you may have better access to it.

Leica28 · Apr 2, 2021

I like the Leica look a whole lot better, personally.

SK_photography · Apr 2, 2021

Nikon always has very pleasing OOC jpegs. Leica seem to go for a more neutral rendering as a default.

S.

Vikas M Gore · Apr 3, 2021

Leica28 said:
I like the Leica look a whole lot better, personally.

While this was far from a comprehensive test and just a couple of one of initial shots to compare after receiving the Z7II, I do agree. I found the Leica colours preferable and to my eyes they were closer to the flowers in front of me. Both cameras were on their default auto white balance.

Vikas M Gore · Apr 3, 2021

SK_photography said:
Nikon always has very pleasing OOC jpegs. Leica seem to go for a more neutral rendering as a default.

S.

Seen on their own, I would have been happy with the Nikon colour results. However I did like the Leica colours more when I compared the two.

However this is just a one-off random shot so I'm not going to draw conclusions just yet

theory03 · Apr 3, 2021

Vikas M Gore said:
SK_photography said:

Nikon always has very pleasing OOC jpegs. Leica seem to go for a more neutral rendering as a default.

S.

Click to expand...

Seen on their own, I would have been happy with the Nikon colour results. However I did like the Leica colours more when I compared the two.

However this is just a one-off random shot so I'm not going to draw conclusions just yet

I agree, and it is hard to make judgements based on just a couple of photos.

I like to take a camera system on a trip to really find out how it performs, and even then it might be a year or more later -- when looking back at the photo highlights -- that I might see something special.

For example, I spent a month in Southeast Asia some time back with both a Fuji X-T3 and the Leica TL2. Looking at the set of photos from both cameras now, in different lighting and other conditions, the Leica photos have a presence and dimensionality that really stand out.

Vikas M Gore · Apr 3, 2021

theory03 said:
For example, I spent a month in Southeast Asia some time back with both a Fuji X-T3 and the Leica TL2. Looking at the set of photos from both cameras now, in different lighting and other conditions, the Leica photos have a presence and dimensionality that really stand out.

As a kind of coincidence. We were living in Singapore till just before COVID-19 days and some year back I had an X-T2 and a CL at the same time when the CL was new. I used them both for a while but realized I was happier with the results I was getting from the CL. I decided to give the Fuji Assa to a neice, who was badly in need of a camera at the time because her old one was falling apart.

She’s still very happy with the X-T2 as I expect I would have been had I not met the CL

calgarykev · Apr 3, 2021

Usually if I compare side by side, I prefer Leica files too. The Dlux 109 swayed me from an LX100 even though I knew without a side by side the LX100 was fine. Leica's are funny that way.

Vikas M Gore said:
Vikas M Gore said:

For example, I spent a month in Southeast Asia some time back with both a Fuji X-T3 and the Leica TL2. Looking at the set of photos from both cameras now, in different lighting and other conditions, the Leica photos have a presence and dimensionality that really stand out.

Click to expand...

As a kind of coincidence. We were living in Singapore till just before COVID-19 days and some year back I had an X-T2 and a CL at the same time when the CL was new. I used them both for a while but realized I was happier with the results I was getting from the CL. I decided to give the Fuji Assa to a neice, who was badly in need of a camera at the time because her old one was falling apart.

She’s still very happy with the X-T2 as I expect I would have been had I not met the CL

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