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A1 and flash master /slave problem

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Poulsan

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I have been doing experiments with the wireless flash function (I have the Minolta 3600 flash): in the 3600 manual, it says that when used as wireless, you can use the built-in camera flash to light up shadows on the motive. However, I can't seem to get this to work. The built-in flash only works as a trigger for the WL, I can't get it to work as a light source itself. I have tried to use it manually, but when you choose WL flash, the manual flash option greys out.

Bottom line is, when I use flash, I find my resulting pics way too harsh with hard shadows on the back wall. When I can bounce the flash, it's much better, but this will not work with a natural wooden ceiling f.ex. The WL flash also makes hard shadows, they are just cast to the side instead.

I know I can get options for a studio setup that can solve this problem. But the whole idea of purchasing the A1 was to have an easy transportable unit with minimum of accessories to get good results. The Bosch flash for my old film camera had a reflector I could turn down in front of the unit, which gave me nice smooth indoor pics. This option I miss terrible on the 3600.

Perhaps someone know an easy solution for this - perhaps I overlooked something in the manual. If it's not possible to use the built-in flash in WL mode, it would be a big point on the wishlist for me!

Thanks,
Poul
 
Hi,
Poulsan said:
in the 3600 manual, it says that when
used as wireless, you can use the built-in camera flash to light up
shadows on the motive. However, I can't seem to get this to work.
Click to expand...
I think you may be expecting too much. I also use the 3600 with my A1, but don't have the manual here to check the page you're talking about.

If you use any flash directly at a subject, with nothing in the light path, you'll get harsh shadows. The built-in flash may lift those shadows slightly, but as the 3600 is so much more powerful it won't remove them completely.

Bouncing flash off dark/coloured ceilings and walls does work, although the reflected light may have a cast to it. Have you tried adjusting the flash exposure to compensate for the "lost" light?

If you want to use direct flash, you're best off buying a diffuser like you had on your Bosch. Sto-fen are the usually recommended brand, but I've never seen one designed for the 3600 - does anyone have any suggestions?

HTH,
Jon
 
Jon, if you read the 3600 manual, it says so indeed. There are also three pics on the page to describe what is accomplished with the master slave setup.

I have tried to bounce the flash to a dark ceiling, and it was no good. It might help if it has a shiny surface (laquered), but this one was just dark, untreaded wood. I'd gladly spend the money if there was a thing like a diffuser for the 3600.

Poul
Jon Read said:
Hi,

I think you may be expecting too much. I also use the 3600 with my
A1, but don't have the manual here to check the page you're talking
about.

If you use any flash directly at a subject, with nothing in the
light path, you'll get harsh shadows. The built-in flash may lift
those shadows slightly, but as the 3600 is so much more powerful it
won't remove them completely.

Bouncing flash off dark/coloured ceilings and walls does work,
although the reflected light may have a cast to it. Have you tried
adjusting the flash exposure to compensate for the "lost" light?

If you want to use direct flash, you're best off buying a diffuser
like you had on your Bosch. Sto-fen are the usually recommended
brand, but I've never seen one designed for the 3600 - does anyone
have any suggestions?

HTH,
Jon
Click to expand...
 
I have the 5600hsd.

I think the flash manual applies to the film camera, and the behaviour is different for the digital camera, where the on camera flash only serves to fire the off camera flash, and does not illuminate the subject. There is no ratio flash.
Poulsan said:
I have tried to bounce the flash to a dark ceiling, and it was no
good. It might help if it has a shiny surface (laquered), but this
one was just dark, untreaded wood. I'd gladly spend the money if
there was a thing like a diffuser for the 3600.

Poul
Jon Read said:
Hi,

I think you may be expecting too much. I also use the 3600 with my
A1, but don't have the manual here to check the page you're talking
about.

If you use any flash directly at a subject, with nothing in the
light path, you'll get harsh shadows. The built-in flash may lift
those shadows slightly, but as the 3600 is so much more powerful it
won't remove them completely.

Bouncing flash off dark/coloured ceilings and walls does work,
although the reflected light may have a cast to it. Have you tried
adjusting the flash exposure to compensate for the "lost" light?

If you want to use direct flash, you're best off buying a diffuser
like you had on your Bosch. Sto-fen are the usually recommended
brand, but I've never seen one designed for the 3600 - does anyone
have any suggestions?

HTH,
Jon
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Dimage A1, Epsom 3200 scanner, HP 2500 printer
 
Engbert, I think you are right. I miss this feature anyway. Wouldn't it be possible to implement in the firmware? A trigger flash followed by a ratio flash - couldn't be that hard?

I'll be doing some experiments with trying to bounce the flash just one step upwards, combined with the 17mm wideangle filter that comes with the 3600. I just think that the result will be motive underexposed on the lower part...

If anybody else has good advice, you are welcome...
engbert said:
I have the 5600hsd.

I think the flash manual applies to the film camera, and the
behaviour is different for the digital camera, where the on camera
flash only serves to fire the off camera flash, and does not
illuminate the subject. There is no ratio flash.
Click to expand...
 
Don't get on me for saying this, but I thought for sure that it did ratio flash with the 5600 hsd. If not, bummer..
I was looking forward to using that feature.

Craig, the negative poster.
Poulsan said:
I have been doing experiments with the wireless flash function (I
have the Minolta 3600 flash): in the 3600 manual, it says that when
used as wireless, you can use the built-in camera flash to light up
shadows on the motive. However, I can't seem to get this to work.
The built-in flash only works as a trigger for the WL, I can't get
it to work as a light source itself. I have tried to use it
manually, but when you choose WL flash, the manual flash option
greys out.

Bottom line is, when I use flash, I find my resulting pics way too
harsh with hard shadows on the back wall. When I can bounce the
flash, it's much better, but this will not work with a natural
wooden ceiling f.ex. The WL flash also makes hard shadows, they are
just cast to the side instead.

I know I can get options for a studio setup that can solve this
problem. But the whole idea of purchasing the A1 was to have an
easy transportable unit with minimum of accessories to get good
results. The Bosch flash for my old film camera had a reflector I
could turn down in front of the unit, which gave me nice smooth
indoor pics. This option I miss terrible on the 3600.

Perhaps someone know an easy solution for this - perhaps I
overlooked something in the manual. If it's not possible to use the
built-in flash in WL mode, it would be a big point on the wishlist
for me!

Thanks,
Poul
Click to expand...
 
Poulsan said:
If anybody else has good advice, you are welcome...
Click to expand...
Have you tried making your own diffuser?

I'd try some tissue paper over the flash head, secured with an elastic band for a start. I've also heard that taping an inflated white plastic bag to the flash works well.

You could even try getting someone to hold a sheet of white paper/card/reflector above the flash, if you have no white ceiling to bounce from.

I'm thinking of building something like this myself that clips directly onto the flash head.

Cheers,
Jon
 
I guess you could buy another 3600 or 5600 hsd then they will definately work in ratio mode.. With both flashes you will be able to light up your life!
I am getting another 5600, I need it for weddings anyways.

Craig, the trying to be positive poster.
Poulsan said:
I have been doing experiments with the wireless flash function (I
have the Minolta 3600 flash): in the 3600 manual, it says that when
used as wireless, you can use the built-in camera flash to light up
shadows on the motive. However, I can't seem to get this to work.
The built-in flash only works as a trigger for the WL, I can't get
it to work as a light source itself. I have tried to use it
manually, but when you choose WL flash, the manual flash option
greys out.

Bottom line is, when I use flash, I find my resulting pics way too
harsh with hard shadows on the back wall. When I can bounce the
flash, it's much better, but this will not work with a natural
wooden ceiling f.ex. The WL flash also makes hard shadows, they are
just cast to the side instead.

I know I can get options for a studio setup that can solve this
problem. But the whole idea of purchasing the A1 was to have an
easy transportable unit with minimum of accessories to get good
results. The Bosch flash for my old film camera had a reflector I
could turn down in front of the unit, which gave me nice smooth
indoor pics. This option I miss terrible on the 3600.

Perhaps someone know an easy solution for this - perhaps I
overlooked something in the manual. If it's not possible to use the
built-in flash in WL mode, it would be a big point on the wishlist
for me!

Thanks,
Poul
Click to expand...
 
Craig, problem is that you are not allowed to switch to manual flash mode when in WL mode ('manual' gets greyed out). Of course, you can use two slave units, but they both fire at full strength...
vfr800craig said:
I guess you could buy another 3600 or 5600 hsd then they will
definately work in ratio mode.. With both flashes you will be able
to light up your life!
I am getting another 5600, I need it for weddings anyways.

Craig, the trying to be positive poster.
Click to expand...
 
This also stroke my mind...but I'm afraid I'd end up with some kind of clumpsy setup...carrying a big white piece for flash bouncing isn't exactly what I had in mind when I bought the A1...
Jon Read said:
Jon Read said:
If anybody else has good advice, you are welcome...
Click to expand...
Have you tried making your own diffuser?

I'd try some tissue paper over the flash head, secured with an
elastic band for a start. I've also heard that taping an inflated
white plastic bag to the flash works well.

You could even try getting someone to hold a sheet of white
paper/card/reflector above the flash, if you have no white ceiling
to bounce from.

I'm thinking of building something like this myself that clips
directly onto the flash head.

Cheers,
Jon
Click to expand...
 
Poulsan said:
vfr800craig said:
I guess you could buy another 3600 or 5600 hsd then they will
definately work in ratio mode.. With both flashes you will be able
to light up your life!
I am getting another 5600, I need it for weddings anyways.

Craig, the trying to be positive poster.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
No, the one on the camera becomes the master and you can ratio it, 2/3 or 3/2 it will fire the slave, then you can always adjust the power setting to 1/2 etc. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
On page 92 in the manual, it says that you have to be in manual mode to ratio the flash at 1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 or 1/16 power. If you want to fire a WL unit, you have to be in WL mode - and then manual mode is not possible (at least not on my A1). You can also correct me if I'm wrong :-)
vfr800craig said:
No, the one on the camera becomes the master and you can ratio it,
2/3 or 3/2 it will fire the slave, then you can always adjust the
power setting to 1/2 etc. Correct me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...
 
I believe you do it thru the flash not the camera. Go thru the menus on the flash, it has it's own wireless system. I am talking about using 2 3600 or 5600 flashes..
Craig
Poulsan said:
vfr800craig said:
No, the one on the camera becomes the master and you can ratio it,
2/3 or 3/2 it will fire the slave, then you can always adjust the
power setting to 1/2 etc. Correct me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, but you still have to fire both flashes. And the 3600 manual says nothing about local ratio mode - I guess it uses plain TTL when firing in WL. Perhaps the 5600 can do ratio mode, I don't know...

Poul
vfr800craig said:
Poulsan said:
vfr800craig said:
No, the one on the camera becomes the master and you can ratio it,
2/3 or 3/2 it will fire the slave, then you can always adjust the
power setting to 1/2 etc. Correct me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
What a diffusing piece of material (you can use a handkerchief with as many folds as you like) will do is to diminish the light - generally undesirable. It will cause a little bit of light dispersion, but almost none if it's right on the flash surface.

What you're trying to do is to get a large-area light source, which is possible if you aim upward onto a sizable white card at 45deg. The bigger and farther away the better. This contradicts easy carrying, so make something that folds. I keep a piece of white flexible plastic in my bag, that I think I cut to size from a flat-sided liquid bottle of some sort years ago. It also serves to set WB.

I've used the stick-on diffusers and they are better than nothing, but they haven't the large area needed and consume far too much light for a round-table group picture such as at wedding receptions.

Nothing beats a large reflector/diffuser and a powerful flash aimed up at it.

Don D
Jon Read said:
Jon Read said:
If anybody else has good advice, you are welcome...
Click to expand...
Have you tried making your own diffuser?

I'd try some tissue paper over the flash head, secured with an
elastic band for a start. I've also heard that taping an inflated
white plastic bag to the flash works well.

You could even try getting someone to hold a sheet of white
paper/card/reflector above the flash, if you have no white ceiling
to bounce from.

I'm thinking of building something like this myself that clips
directly onto the flash head.

Cheers,
Jon
Click to expand...
 
With my D7i and A1, for the second flash (I have a 3600), I use a Vivitar 285HV with a Wein Digital Slave Trigger mounted on its shoe. I already had the flash ($0) but the trigger cost about $75. So you may have a way that's cheaper than a 2d 3600, but that may be good to get anyway for other reasons - backup, same light power, etc.
vfr800craig said:
Craig, the trying to be positive poster.
Poulsan said:
I have been doing experiments with the wireless flash function (I
have the Minolta 3600 flash): in the 3600 manual, it says that when
used as wireless, you can use the built-in camera flash to light up
shadows on the motive. However, I can't seem to get this to work.
The built-in flash only works as a trigger for the WL, I can't get
it to work as a light source itself. I have tried to use it
manually, but when you choose WL flash, the manual flash option
greys out.

Bottom line is, when I use flash, I find my resulting pics way too
harsh with hard shadows on the back wall. When I can bounce the
flash, it's much better, but this will not work with a natural
wooden ceiling f.ex. The WL flash also makes hard shadows, they are
just cast to the side instead.

I know I can get options for a studio setup that can solve this
problem. But the whole idea of purchasing the A1 was to have an
easy transportable unit with minimum of accessories to get good
results. The Bosch flash for my old film camera had a reflector I
could turn down in front of the unit, which gave me nice smooth
indoor pics. This option I miss terrible on the 3600.

Perhaps someone know an easy solution for this - perhaps I
overlooked something in the manual. If it's not possible to use the
built-in flash in WL mode, it would be a big point on the wishlist
for me!

Thanks,
Poul
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Here is some info on Minolta flashes, Only the 5600 can go manual I guess
http://www.photozone.de/bindex2.html
I'm trying to remember another write up on them..

Craig
Poulsan said:
Poul
vfr800craig said:
Poulsan said:
vfr800craig said:
No, the one on the camera becomes the master and you can ratio it,
2/3 or 3/2 it will fire the slave, then you can always adjust the
power setting to 1/2 etc. Correct me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
This from Imaging resource
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/A1/A1A6.HTM

The built-in, pop-up flash offers two methods of flash metering. Advanced Distance Integration (ADI) bases its exposure on the lens aperture, feedback from the autofocus system (how far the subject is from the camera), as well as on a separate metering flash. Pre-Flash TTL (through the lens) uses only the small metering flash prior to the main exposure to gauge how much light is reflected by the scene. The Dimage A1 also includes a top-mounted hot shoe for attaching Minolta external flash units (and any compatible third-party units). An external flash sync terminal offers a standard "PC" style sync jack for connecting to studio strobes or other external flash devices. Flash modes include Fill-Flash, Red-Eye Reduction, and Rear Flash Sync, with Flash Compensation available from -2 to +2 exposure equivalents (EV) in one-third-step increments. A Wireless flash mode lets the camera work with certain Minolta-brand wireless flash units. A manual flash mode fires the onboard flash at full, 1/4, or 1/16 power. Since manual flash mode doesn't use a pre-flash, it's perfect for driving studio strobes via conventional slave triggers.

Craig
 
Poulsan said:
vfr800craig said:
No, the one on the camera becomes the master and you can ratio it,
2/3 or 3/2 it will fire the slave, then you can always adjust the
power setting to 1/2 etc. Correct me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
From Minolta UK:

"You cannot alter the output of one 5600HS(D) and the internal flash. The
internal flash only releases the external flash. Mostly it is not
visible on the image. The ration can be changed if you are using more
than one external flash (e.g. two 5600HS(D))"

--
robab
 
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