Z6, Z7, Z50 and Cropability

lokatz · Feb 9, 2021

spec68 said:
lokatz said:

spec68 said:

So, my question to you is what is your motivation in planning on making such huge crops vs using a longer lens to fill the frame and not having to crop?

Click to expand...

I said I do the same, so I guess I'm qualified to respond.

Easy: the best camera and lens, as the old adage goes, are always the ones you have on you. If you shoot landscape and have a selection of good lenses for it, your argument holds water. If you're talking street, travel, etc., as the OP also did, well, that may be quite different.

For one, you may not have time to change lenses, so you shoot with whatever is on the body and crop as required. Also, you may not have the time to frame properly and decide on the best framing from an artistic standpoint. Maybe that's not how you work, but it is how a lot of photos, including some great ones, came to life: the framing decision was made in post, not on site.

In all these cases, having the ability to crop while keeping a perfectly printable picture is a godsend.

By the way, I remember that great 20x30" print hanging on my office wall, shot with a D90 at 12MP. "You wouldn't want to crop those [20MP] pictures more in crop"? Err, what? Don't overestimate how many MP you need for good prints.

Click to expand...

Right, but OP is 1) talking about making massive 75% crops, and 2) is starting his camera and lens collection from scratch. He has the opportunity to buy the right camera and zoom for the type of photography he will focus on. That is the advice he is seeking.

Deep crops are always a compromise. I think we all do it when required, but, personally I hate it. If I could carry a 5lb lens around I would. But I don't gather that is the reason OP is planning on frequent cropping, and that's is the difference.

You and I must be reading the OP's statements differently. I take the 75% to say that 25% of the image gets cropped away and 75% remain. That's not massive in my book.

Dan DeLion · Feb 9, 2021

sweetdavey said:
Hello!

I've been contemplating going Z for quite a while now, being already invested in the Nikon system. Trouble is I haven't been able to make up my mind on camera choice.

The way I see it there's several factors in favor of either choice. I shoot landscape, and occasionally street/lifestyle/travel. Non-professional enthusiast.

I was set on going Z6 for a while due to:

Greater speed (I do shoot dynamic scenes, such as waves, quite a lot)

Lesser filesize. It matters to me. Not only because of disk space, but also because of the significant difference in handling in post, especially in Lightroom

Price.

Slightly better low light performance theoretically, and possibly DR

I just figured the Z6 would be enough for my needs, especially as I felt that the 24 mp D7100 that I used to shoot with a couple of years ago was more than enough with very few exceptions.

Then again, cropping... This the main thing that would set my eyes on the Z7 again, seeing as I do crop quite often, and suspect a cropped frame would lack enough resolution on the Z6 in case I choose to print, which does happen now and again. The extra resolution in itself, ISO 64 and detail/sharpness increase when pixel peeping wouldn't be enough to veer me towards the Z7. But cropping-freedom is important.

However....it has come to my attention (and here's my actual question) that due to the greater pixel density, crop sensors punch way above their weight when it comes to cropping. Have I been needlessly stuck on full-frame? The reviews on the Z50 IQ are appealing for sure. Price is very low, and therefore deciding to upgrade to a later iteration z7 (or z8) later on wouldn't be a big waste of money. I wouldn't invest in crop sensor z-lenses, expect for the one in the bundle. I'm also aware low light / high ISO capabilities will be lower with the z50, but not to the extent that would bother me much, I think.

So, how does it really work? How much of the cropability of the Z7 would I get with a 20 mp Z50?

Thanks much in Advance!

Hi Davey -

The Z7’s IQ is superb. Arguably the best in the world. Its’ crop ability is outstanding. You can easily throw away 75% of the pixels and still produce excellent 16x20’s.

Why would you want to do that? Any prime lens (highest quality such as Z-S lenses) becomes a zoom. For example, the 85 f1.8 become an 85 to 135 zoom when you crop down to 23MP and an 85 to 200 when you crop down to 12MP. Think of the flexibility: - You can zoom to any degree after you’ve taken the pic. - You can choose any part of the full frame to zoom in on. - You have a f1.8 zoom. - You kit is much lighter.

Stay safe - Dan

sweetdavey · Feb 9, 2021

lokatz said:
spec68 said:

lokatz said:

spec68 said:

So, my question to you is what is your motivation in planning on making such huge crops vs using a longer lens to fill the frame and not having to crop?

Click to expand...

I said I do the same, so I guess I'm qualified to respond.

Easy: the best camera and lens, as the old adage goes, are always the ones you have on you. If you shoot landscape and have a selection of good lenses for it, your argument holds water. If you're talking street, travel, etc., as the OP also did, well, that may be quite different.

For one, you may not have time to change lenses, so you shoot with whatever is on the body and crop as required. Also, you may not have the time to frame properly and decide on the best framing from an artistic standpoint. Maybe that's not how you work, but it is how a lot of photos, including some great ones, came to life: the framing decision was made in post, not on site.

In all these cases, having the ability to crop while keeping a perfectly printable picture is a godsend.

By the way, I remember that great 20x30" print hanging on my office wall, shot with a D90 at 12MP. "You wouldn't want to crop those [20MP] pictures more in crop"? Err, what? Don't overestimate how many MP you need for good prints.

Click to expand...

Right, but OP is 1) talking about making massive 75% crops, and 2) is starting his camera and lens collection from scratch. He has the opportunity to buy the right camera and zoom for the type of photography he will focus on. That is the advice he is seeking.

Deep crops are always a compromise. I think we all do it when required, but, personally I hate it. If I could carry a 5lb lens around I would. But I don't gather that is the reason OP is planning on frequent cropping, and that's is the difference.

Click to expand...

You and I must be reading the OP's statements differently. I take the 75% to say that 25% of the image gets cropped away and 75% remain. That's not massive in my book.

Yep, I meant to have 75% remain.

Thanks again for all the replies. I'll probably save up a bit more money and go for the Z7. But wait until the 24-105 arrives, which I assume will be an f4 and the perfect middle ground between the 24-70 2.8 and the super zoom.

spec68 · Feb 9, 2021

lokatz said:
You and I must be reading the OP's statements differently. I take the 75% to say that 25% of the image gets cropped away and 75% remain. That's not massive in my book.

Yes, thanks for the catch there. My aging eyes at work again. But, 25% crop is still not insignificant, especially on a 20 or 24mp camera. Like I said we all do it in a pinch, but I don't think as regular practice. So while OP is learning photography he might as well learn good habits like buying the right body for the type of photography he plans to focus on and using the right lens over cropping.

BTW (this is for OP) Matt Granger just did a good demo of why cropping is not zooming and also added in "zooming with your feet" is not zooming either. Here is the link:

1llusive · Feb 9, 2021

sweetdavey said:
Virtual Photon said:

Z7 (and Z7II) have about the same pixel density as the Z50. I seriously doubt that you could tell the difference between a well exposed cropped Z7 image and a Z50 image in most circumstances - in most display/printed formats.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies! I realize I should have been a little clearer with my actual question. The above is really what I'm after. Seeing as the Z7 and the Z50 have about the same pixel density, what does this mean for cropping?

More specifically, If I crop the Z7 image to 75% of its original size, and ALSO crop the z50 to 75% of its original size, will that mean the quality wont suffer much more on the z50 than the z7, due to the same pixel density? Obviosuly the resolution will be much lower on the cropped z50, but does detail prevail almost as much as on the z7 ?

I'd use different terminology. Resolution is pixel density and aperture (which affects focal length). I would say: field of view will be smaller on the Z50 which will affect image viewing size and printing size.

So with the DX format you lose the larger lens advantage which collects more light leading to higher SNR (cleaner images) and shallower depth of field potential. Only you can decide if you need that difference.

Honestly I would make the decision based on lens availability and that hands down leads you to Z full frame.

sirhawkeye64 · Feb 9, 2021

sweetdavey said:
Hello!

I've been contemplating going Z for quite a while now, being already invested in the Nikon system. Trouble is I haven't been able to make up my mind on camera choice.

The way I see it there's several factors in favor of either choice. I shoot landscape, and occasionally street/lifestyle/travel. Non-professional enthusiast.

I was set on going Z6 for a while due to:

Greater speed (I do shoot dynamic scenes, such as waves, quite a lot)

Lesser filesize. It matters to me. Not only because of disk space, but also because of the significant difference in handling in post, especially in Lightroom

Price.

Slightly better low light performance theoretically, and possibly DR

I just figured the Z6 would be enough for my needs, especially as I felt that the 24 mp D7100 that I used to shoot with a couple of years ago was more than enough with very few exceptions.

Then again, cropping... This the main thing that would set my eyes on the Z7 again, seeing as I do crop quite often, and suspect a cropped frame would lack enough resolution on the Z6 in case I choose to print, which does happen now and again. The extra resolution in itself, ISO 64 and detail/sharpness increase when pixel peeping wouldn't be enough to veer me towards the Z7. But cropping-freedom is important.

However....it has come to my attention (and here's my actual question) that due to the greater pixel density, crop sensors punch way above their weight when it comes to cropping. Have I been needlessly stuck on full-frame? The reviews on the Z50 IQ are appealing for sure. Price is very low, and therefore deciding to upgrade to a later iteration z7 (or z8) later on wouldn't be a big waste of money. I wouldn't invest in crop sensor z-lenses, expect for the one in the bundle. I'm also aware low light / high ISO capabilities will be lower with the z50, but not to the extent that would bother me much, I think.

So, how does it really work? How much of the cropability of the Z7 would I get with a 20 mp Z50?

Thanks much in Advance!

The only thing I would say is that 20MP would probably be the lowest resolution camera I'd go if you're remotely considering doing any cropping of any kind (either using a crop mode in camera or in post).

I personally like to have a little wiggle room myself. Now I'm not saying you need to get a 45MP camera, but I would say the Z6 is probably better if you want the option to crop later on as you'll have more pixels you can throw away before the image starts to degrade. Granted 3MP difference isn't huge, but if given the choice, I'd personally go with the Z6 (or more rather, the Z6 II for its slight burst shooting bump over the original Z6 if you plan on doing wildlife).

Comparing the Z7 in crop mode vs Z50 (native resolution) you're talking about 19MP on the Z7 in crop mode vs the 20.9 native resolution of the Z50. About the same and the extra 1MP is probably not noticeable at viewing distance anyway. I always feel that if you're going to crop, you're better off cropping from a higher-res image which is why I personally prefer a higher-res camera (just in case). If I want to, I can put my Z7 into crop mode if I want a tight shot or to take advantage of the extra "reach" of one of my lenses, and I don't plan on cropping that much in post.

plumberdp69 · Feb 10, 2021

spec68 said:
BTW (this is for OP) Matt Granger just did a good demo of why cropping is not zooming and also added in "zooming with your feet" is not zooming either. Here is the link:

Thanks for the link. Informative.

jfw · Feb 10, 2021

sweetdavey said:
Hello!

I've been contemplating going Z for quite a while now, being already invested in the Nikon system. Trouble is I haven't been able to make up my mind on camera choice.

The way I see it there's several factors in favor of either choice. I shoot landscape, and occasionally street/lifestyle/travel. Non-professional enthusiast.

I was set on going Z6 for a while due to:

Greater speed (I do shoot dynamic scenes, such as waves, quite a lot)

Lesser filesize. It matters to me. Not only because of disk space, but also because of the significant difference in handling in post, especially in Lightroom

Price.

Slightly better low light performance theoretically, and possibly DR

I just figured the Z6 would be enough for my needs, especially as I felt that the 24 mp D7100 that I used to shoot with a couple of years ago was more than enough with very few exceptions.

Then again, cropping... This the main thing that would set my eyes on the Z7 again, seeing as I do crop quite often, and suspect a cropped frame would lack enough resolution on the Z6 in case I choose to print, which does happen now and again. The extra resolution in itself, ISO 64 and detail/sharpness increase when pixel peeping wouldn't be enough to veer me towards the Z7. But cropping-freedom is important.

However....it has come to my attention (and here's my actual question) that due to the greater pixel density, crop sensors punch way above their weight when it comes to cropping. Have I been needlessly stuck on full-frame? The reviews on the Z50 IQ are appealing for sure. Price is very low, and therefore deciding to upgrade to a later iteration z7 (or z8) later on wouldn't be a big waste of money. I wouldn't invest in crop sensor z-lenses, expect for the one in the bundle. I'm also aware low light / high ISO capabilities will be lower with the z50, but not to the extent that would bother me much, I think.

So, how does it really work? How much of the cropability of the Z7 would I get with a 20 mp Z50?

Thanks much in Advance!

Hi Davey, I'm also a hobbyist that shoots mostly landscape. IMHO you are WAY over thinking this. I agree with you 100% - cropping is important for landscape. There are a lot of situations where, in the field you eye sees it one way, but in the lab in post-processing you see additional opportunities. Composition in these situations will trump any of the minor other differences you are parsing between the Z models in this thread. Given your specific situation (i.e., landscape guy who does a lot of cropping), the Z7 (of which I have 2) seems like a no-brainer.

Not taking a poke - just offering some perspective. I hope this helps, at least a little!

Cheers, Jerry

Dan628 · Feb 10, 2021

lokatz said:
spec68 said:

So, my question to you is what is your motivation in planning on making such huge crops vs using a longer lens to fill the frame and not having to crop?

Click to expand...

I said I do the same, so I guess I'm qualified to respond.

Easy: the best camera and lens, as the old adage goes, are always the ones you have on you. If you shoot landscape and have a selection of good lenses for it, your argument holds water. If you're talking street, travel, etc., as the OP also did, well, that may be quite different.

For one, you may not have time to change lenses, so you shoot with whatever is on the body and crop as required. Also, you may not have the time to frame properly and decide on the best framing from an artistic standpoint. Maybe that's not how you work, but it is how a lot of photos, including some great ones, came to life: the framing decision was made in post, not on site.

In all these cases, having the ability to crop while keeping a perfectly printable picture is a godsend.

By the way, I remember that great 20x30" print hanging on my office wall, shot with a D90 at 12MP. "You wouldn't want to crop those [20MP] pictures more in crop"? Err, what? Don't overestimate how many MP you need for good prints.

I am also interested in reality how big the difference if you print out a crop image from a z6 vs z7. I think if someone focuses on using primes the in body cropping can come in pretty handy in a lot of situations. It can really help the composition imo.

So basically a Z7 produces a 20mp image after cropping while the z6 around 10/11mp.

If I know correctly if someone doesnt want to print larger the A2 the both are fine. I think the z7 20mp is capable around 250 dpi which is of course a very good quality. The z6 is around 180dpi if i know correctly (maybe not) still decent. For A3 print both are above 270dpi so that should be okay.

Is there anyone who can say how visible is that difference? I do not have real life experience with that but as far as I know that woudnt be huge. Of course side by side you could tell the difference but I think even a 180dpi A2 print could be a decent image quality. For sure if you want to print larger than that the difference would be notable but as long as it is around A2/A3 size I think it doest really matter unless you really use it very often.

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Z6, Z7, Z50 and Cropability

lokatz

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Dan DeLion

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sweetdavey

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spec68

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1llusive

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sirhawkeye64

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plumberdp69

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jfw

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Dan628

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