Improving xt4 for portraits

Rikochikoniko · Feb 1, 2021

Hey Y’all,

So I recently bought an xt4 with the kit lens 18-55 f 2.8.

I bought it to get more into video but I was also hoping it could possibly replace my current portrait set up (5d Mark II with ef 24-105mm f4 lens). Heard it was a good hybrid camera so figured there was a chance.

I started taking comparative portrait shots with the two cameras (5d mk II vs xt4) and found some differences that made me not as excited about the xt4. I’m trying to understand why these differences are showing up and if there’s a way to simulate in the xt4 what I like with my 5d, whether it’s different settings or a new lens.

List of differences

Dynamic range / skin tones popping

-I feel like with the 5d skin tones pop more naturally against the background. With Fuji, it feels like the skin tones become more neutral and more closely match the background lighting. I’ve been able to partly address this with increasing the dynamic range to 400% but it still seems to slightly fall short from the 5d.

Not inherently a problem, but I really love how subjects pop with my 5d and would love a similar effect with my xt4. Does this have to do with the xt4 being a crop sensor?

Skin tone highlights / shadows

-closely related, it feels like shadows and highlights in skin tones themselves aren’t as dynamic with the xt4 compared to the canon. I found the ability to up the shadows and highlights but couldn’t find the perfect amount to leave it at and get consistent shots I felt comfortable with. Again, is this related to being a crop sensor? I've tried a wide array of film simulation and white balance options and nothing quite gets it where I would like

(Bratty concern)slightly too digital

-this sounds pretty petty, but there seems to be a digital crispness to the xt4 shots that make it feel like a highly upgraded iPhone. This sounds so stupid and such a petty diss, just coming from such an old canon I think there’s an aesthetic to these old DSLRs that I kinda miss. Maybe with a different / vintage lens I can recapture what I’m looking for with the xt4

That’s my long rant! Below are some examples of what I'm talking about. Any advice about why these differences are there and how to make subjects pop more and to increase dynamic range for subjects / skin tones would be super helpful, whether it's about settings or lenses. If I'm just not suited for the xt4, are there other cameras you'd suggest?

Left xt4 (28.9 mm), right 5d mark II (40mm) (Settings for both are SS1/200, F 4, ISO 2000)

I prefer the pop of the skin on the right

Left xt4 (18mm) right 5d mark ii (28mm) (both at SS 1/200, f 4, Iso 2000)

Again, I prefer the pop of the skin on the right

xt4 left, canon right (too lazy to put all the details in, comment if you'd like to know)

prefer skin pop on canon

xt4 left, 5d mark ii right (same settings)

While the highlights are slightly blown out, I do prefer the range of lights and darks on my face with the canon, and while I experimented with raising the shadows and highlights on the xt4, this was the most natural version I could find.

xt4 left, canon right (same settings)

I'm just so used to and attached to that less crisp / textured with the canon and would like to retain that with the xt4.

If you're interested in the portraits I do, here's my instagram, let me know if you have any suggestions for what gear would fit my current work

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Ashley Barrett · Feb 1, 2021

Hmmm. Strange, I don't have this problem. I have the x-t4 and the 5d mark iv, but the canon has not been used once since I got the Fuji.

I vaguely remember it taking a couple shoots to really dial in the settings and post production on the Fuji, but I don't remember what that entailed.

And as someone who still shoots a lot of film (or did before I got into Fuji), Fuji definitely more closely resembles the film look compared to Canon (to me).

Keep shooting. Play with the in camera settings. Play with your post prod. You'll get there.

Good luck!

Rikochikoniko · Feb 1, 2021

Thanks!

PeterWallace · Feb 1, 2021

Give it a nudge on exposure...seems under exposed compared to Canon

KAAMBIC · Feb 1, 2021

Here's a problem i see. You mention the words dynamic and pop but im not sure what you mean by them. The Canon shots have more contrast, ie the difference between blacks and whites is greater, the Fuji is flatter with less contrast. You also mention setting the Fuji to DR400?

If so, that's the opposite of what you should do, lower it to 200 or do the base 100 setting, the higher that DR setting the flatter the look. Also, you can change the HL on the XT4, im guessing from -2 to +2. A +2 will make the whites brighter and increase contrast, that should make it look more like the Canon.

I personally prefer a flatter look, we all have different taste so just copying other settings isn't the best answer. But i will say, it also looks like you are oversaturated on the Fuji. I don't know what film sim you are using if any, but Fuji has the best jpeg custom settings i have found yet, you just need to go through them and test.

I have owned Sony, Canon, Pentax, Nikon, Olympus, Panasonic and Fuji, i think Fuji has the best skin tones of all but you do have to adjust settings depending on the film sim and what look you want. Here's a sample FWIW. If i remember, it's DR400, HL-2, Color-2, Eterna sim.

--
"You taught me hate, I'll teach you fear" -

ikaika777 · Feb 1, 2021

Rikochikoniko said:
Hey Y’all,

So I recently bought an xt4 with the kit lens 18-55 f 2.8.

I bought it to get more into video but I was also hoping it could possibly replace my current portrait set up (5d Mark II with ef 24-105mm f4 lens). Heard it was a good hybrid camera so figured there was a chance.

I started taking comparative portrait shots with the two cameras (5d mk II vs xt4) and found some differences that made me not as excited about the xt4. I’m trying to understand why these differences are showing up and if there’s a way to simulate in the xt4 what I like with my 5d, whether it’s different settings or a new lens.

List of differences

Dynamic range / skin tones popping

-I feel like with the 5d skin tones pop more naturally against the background. With Fuji, it feels like the skin tones become more neutral and more closely match the background lighting. I’ve been able to partly address this with increasing the dynamic range to 400% but it still seems to slightly fall short from the 5d.

Not inherently a problem, but I really love how subjects pop with my 5d and would love a similar effect with my xt4. Does this have to do with the xt4 being a crop sensor?

Skin tone highlights / shadows

-closely related, it feels like shadows and highlights in skin tones themselves aren’t as dynamic with the xt4 compared to the canon. I found the ability to up the shadows and highlights but couldn’t find the perfect amount to leave it at and get consistent shots I felt comfortable with. Again, is this related to being a crop sensor? I've tried a wide array of film simulation and white balance options and nothing quite gets it where I would like

(Bratty concern)slightly too digital

-this sounds pretty petty, but there seems to be a digital crispness to the xt4 shots that make it feel like a highly upgraded iPhone. This sounds so stupid and such a petty diss, just coming from such an old canon I think there’s an aesthetic to these old DSLRs that I kinda miss. Maybe with a different / vintage lens I can recapture what I’m looking for with the xt4

That’s my long rant! Below are some examples of what I'm talking about. Any advice about why these differences are there and how to make subjects pop more and to increase dynamic range for subjects / skin tones would be super helpful, whether it's about settings or lenses. If I'm just not suited for the xt4, are there other cameras you'd suggest?

Left xt4 (28.9 mm), right 5d mark II (40mm) (Settings for both are SS1/200, F 4, ISO 2000)

I prefer the pop of the skin on the right

Left xt4 (18mm) right 5d mark ii (28mm) (both at SS 1/200, f 4, Iso 2000)

Again, I prefer the pop of the skin on the right

xt4 left, canon right (too lazy to put all the details in, comment if you'd like to know)

prefer skin pop on canon

xt4 left, 5d mark ii right (same settings)

While the highlights are slightly blown out, I do prefer the range of lights and darks on my face with the canon, and while I experimented with raising the shadows and highlights on the xt4, this was the most natural version I could find.

xt4 left, canon right (same settings)

I'm just so used to and attached to that less crisp / textured with the canon and would like to retain that with the xt4.

If you're interested in the portraits I do, here's my instagram, let me know if you have any suggestions for what gear would fit my current work

https://www.instagram.com/nikolai_ewert_photography/

Sorry, I don’t see any “pop” from the Canon. What I do see is that the Fuji has better colors while the Canon shots have a green hue to them.

--
After all is said and done and your photo is hanging on the wall, no one is going to know or care what camera, lens, or what post processing you used. All they care about is if the image moves them.
I’m not hung up on the Bokeh fad because I’m too busy chasing shadows.

Rikochikoniko · Feb 2, 2021

Thank you! Totally misunderstood the dr function

Waldemar · Feb 2, 2021

I know what you mean, because I´ve used the 5D II in the old days. It produced phantastic portrait shots sooc with an adapted MF Zeiss-Contax 28-85mm F3.3-4 or the F2/100mm USM. I never even bothered with raw back then, it just wasn´t woth it.

If you want a similiar look in jpegs you need to incease the contrast on the X-T4. By increasing the DR to 400% you´ve done the opposite.

You could set the individual values for shadows and highlights to, say, +2 and play with these values until you get a satisfying result.

To better understand the whole issue with contrast curves and jpegs I recommend to shoot in raw and use one of the free Fuji raw converters or Luminar.

---------------------------------------------
Waldemar

Rikochikoniko · Feb 2, 2021

Thank you! Yeah, totally misunderstood the DR fuji option

DuncanIdaho · Feb 5, 2021

Probably you should first get a new monitor - the canon files have an awkward green tint

But jokes aside: the old canons are very flat and designed to be tweaked in post while the Fuji JPEGs are more "ready to use" hence have more saturation and contrast. you could dial back shadow and highlight tones but first I recommend using astia for portraits. first it is better suited for skin tones and the overall look is a bit less contrasty.

in addition ISO 2000 is where details are becoming to wash out, but that is not the issue here as the old canon sensor has rather worse ISO performance compared to the latest gen sony APSC sensor.

Waldemar · Feb 7, 2021

Rikochikoniko said:
Thank you! Yeah, totally misunderstood the DR fuji option

I´ve also used the Fuji S5 Pro back then and got some of my best people shots ever from that, especially in backlit situations. The 5D II had a much higher contrast in the standard setting and tended to blow the highlights quite easily, while the S5 Pro had a very flat standard jpeg profile, which took advantage of its good DR, but was completely unfit for landscape shots. But this is all a matter of jpegs. Since all modern sensors (even Canon´s now) have tons of raw DR, it´s worth to shoot raw now. I used to hate my Luminar 3 (slow and crashes...), but the portrait filter in Luminar 4 is great. It recognizes faces in a shot and gives you the possibility to lighten them, while leaving the rest of the picture alone. So no masking needed anymore. This is really, really great.

---------------------------------------------
Waldemar

The Davinator · Feb 7, 2021

Interesting thoughts. One area that needs correction though is dynamic range. The fujifilm exceeds the 5D2 by at least 1.5 stops.

OmarCCX · Feb 7, 2021

Lenses make a big difference. I wouldn't be too critical of a camera by using it's kit lens. Color and rendering are one of the reasons I stick to primes.

El Vuelo del Escorpion · Feb 7, 2021

OmarCCX said:
Lenses make a big difference. I wouldn't be too critical of a camera by using it's kit lens. Color and rendering are one of the reasons I stick to primes.

Absolutely agree. Get the 35 f/1.4 or the 56 f/1.2 and you will see a huge difference compared to the 18-55 in terms of image rendering.

Krummj · Feb 7, 2021

To make them look the same, first shoot the Fuji at f2.8 if you are shooting the Canon at F4. Then you can lower the iso a little as well for the Fuji.

The other thing to do is to get your white balance to where you like it in the Fuji.

The final thing to do is to accept that full frame cameras will always have slightly richer color depth and dynamic range compared to smaller sensor cameras. You can partly address it by using good lighting technique and high quality glass. If you bought a Fuji GFX100S and compared it to your Canon, you might see a similar discrepancy.

DuncanIdaho · Feb 7, 2021

Krummj said:
To make them look the same, first shoot the Fuji at f2.8 if you are shooting the Canon at F4. Then you can lower the iso a little as well for the Fuji.

The other thing to do is to get your white balance to where you like it in the Fuji.

The final thing to do is to accept that full frame cameras will always have slightly richer color depth and dynamic range compared to smaller sensor cameras. You can partly address it by using good lighting technique and high quality glass. If you bought a Fuji GFX100S and compared it to your Canon, you might see a similar discrepancy.

I beg to differ here, the older Canon sensor he uses does not have any benefits over the APSC sensor in terms of DR or Color depth.

white Balance is indeed the most crucial and essential thing to get right before spending ANY thought about colours

OnCam · Feb 8, 2021

Have always noticed that the Fuji never matches canons exposure settings even if they are identical, if your at 1/200 in the first photos with the canon you probably need to shoot at 1/125 with the Fuji to match output exposure. Usually 1/2 to a full stop behind in most cases. I have the RP and XT2. That would be where I would start to get closer images.

Rikochikoniko · Feb 8, 2021

Thank you! I'm noticing that duplicating settings is not working. I'm getting a much better look with the 35 f2, it really helps raising that f stop above canons.

Rikochikoniko · Feb 8, 2021

I rented the 35mm f2, and having it at f2 made it work, along with realizing that matching the ISO with the canon wasn't helping

The Davinator · Feb 8, 2021

OnCam said:
Have always noticed that the Fuji never matches canons exposure settings even if they are identical, if your at 1/200 in the first photos with the canon you probably need to shoot at 1/125 with the Fuji to match output exposure. Usually 1/2 to a full stop behind in most cases. I have the RP and XT2. That would be where I would start to get closer images.

Canon and Fuji use different metering standards...SOS and REI. That is why one gets different settings between cameras.

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