If you're in no hurry, I'd wait and see what the GX10 brings to the table. I'd hazard a guess it will finally fix all the little niggles of the 7 & 9.
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If the G100 is such a failure where are the price discounts?
- Thread starter Laszlo13
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Impulses
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Thanks a lot for looking into that Helen.
Impulses
Forum Pro
Weather sealing and a better EVF or gtfo, those were it's biggest weakness from the start IMO and they got less easy to forgive on latter models (tho price drops have mitigated that)... I dunno why Pana refuses to put sealing in a body smaller than a G##.
It seems one of these accepted fallacies that gear is always overpriced and that if we wait long enough then the price will drop to something reasonable.
Its a sort or arm-wrestle between the manufacturer and a team of customers made up of members of the early-adopter type who wish to be at the fore-front of anything new, and the price-matters type who will take the attitude that they don’t mind if it is a dud as long as it is cheap.
It is the job of the engineers to make great kit, the marketers to find the suitable market and the been-counters to figure out pricing and size of product run based on their colleagues professional advice. Bean counters are (surprisingly) not as tight fisted as their repute and anxious to help. But it is their job to try and make sure that any new wonder product actually makes money over its life cycle.
I don’t remember any particular discounting over the GF7-GX850 model range - but it was made by a process of an apparent updated make-over model each year. The two GM series camera bodies on the other hand were quite revolutionary when launched and were sold over many years without change to either model.
At the risk of glazing eyes over:
This lumps itself into what is known as the “Payback Theory” of accounting which basically says that no money is made until sales revenue covers the full cost of development and the entire product run. Once this is achieved then every one of the remaining stock sold is “the profit” - at any price. Discounting before payback is achieved risks making the entire model not profitable at all and it will never be repeated.
The GM series models seem to be more typical of high R&D and establishment costs and a big manufacturing run - which took longer to reach payback and resulted in the cameras being sold over a fairly long time-frame. What seemed notable was that there seemed to be a base-price below which no GM body was ever retailed. But as there was a continuing smaller demand Panasonic preferred to draw that base price line in the sand and sell to that lower level market over a period of time. Obviously closer sailing to the wind and a lesson well understood.
The GF7 and successors seem to have been sold on a different manufacturing model - much of the R&D would have been recovered from the GM series. Smaller batches allowed the camera to be made-over in successive annual batches and carefully learned marketing information made sure that the batches were of a size where the product made was likely to be sold at close to constant RRP over its annual batch life cycle.
Like the G100 the GF7 and successors hardly were seen as “top of the pops” - but enabled Panasonic to sell a smaller camera body with a more assured-sold market without the need to discount to move stock.
My guess is that the G100 is an interesting camera that has been incorrectly marketed to a hoped-for new fashion of entry-level video users that just is not there. I still believe that video is a niche and no amount of new-product persuasion is going to turn that niche into a mainstream demand product. Hence the G100 gets bad press as a low-level video machine and the serious video users spurn it whilst the still-shooters looking for a small stills-oriented camera cannot see that it is the camera that they absolutely need. They were not the target market.
But as the G100 is presumably a relatively small batch - maybe becoming “annual” - then there is no need to discount to encourage sales as long as the marketing crowd have managed to get their sales projections properly sorted out.
Maybe next years model will be friendlier for still-shooters?
But no discounting for those that refuse to buy anything unless it is a distress sale when the camera model has been abandoned and will surely not be repeated.
Weather sealing is no biggie for me. But once you've used cameras with brilliant EVF's such as the GX8 and G9, those GX EVF's have very little appeal. To me. Yeah, they're perfectly usable, but just don't take a look through the other two I mentioned
The market has changed radically, and the manufacturers have to change their marketing strategies to cope with it. The days of deep discounting might be over. Even for Panasonic, who was always loved for slashing prices six months after launch, and bundling free lenses into the deal. (Think: GX85 with two kit lenses for $499. Why on earth would anyone buy a used one, when the new ones are selling so cheaply?)
According to CIPA statistics the average price of a MILC camera since 2012 has more than doubled, while the average price of a DSLR has remained virtually flat. This shows us that manufacturers are increasing prices faster on MILC cameras because it is the best performing type of camera they have.
I suspect manufacturers might be producing in much smaller batches now to closely match sales. If true, the result would much less excess inventory, and much less reason to discount.
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Marty
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
According to CIPA statistics the average price of a MILC camera since 2012 has more than doubled, while the average price of a DSLR has remained virtually flat. This shows us that manufacturers are increasing prices faster on MILC cameras because it is the best performing type of camera they have.
I suspect manufacturers might be producing in much smaller batches now to closely match sales. If true, the result would much less excess inventory, and much less reason to discount.
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Marty
Laszlo13
Leading Member
I continue to be perplexed by both Olympus and Panasonic of not continuing the GX8 and Pen-F (at least to date). It's not to say that the other larger cams (video orientation, wildlife, etc.) don't make sense - but travel & street shooting is a natural strength of m4/3 - so why not make the best rangefinder cam you can? Meaning great EVF, weather sealing, strong IBIS, and good portability. My ideal would be just a slightly slimmed down GX8, or even same size if the a good IBIS (including hand held high res) necessitates it. This is where this system wins - despite Sony's efforts with the A7C, by the time you add lenses to it - I just feel it's not it for a high end compact travel cam.Weather sealing is no biggie for me. But once you've used cameras with brilliant EVF's such as the GX8 and G9, those GX EVF's have very little appeal. To me. Yeah, they're perfectly usable, but just don't take a look through the other two I mentioned
alcelc
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You might notice that GX8 is the largest GX. A major reason delayed my upgrade from GX7, waiting for more than a year to skip the GX8.I continue to be perplexed by both Olympus and Panasonic of not continuing the GX8 and Pen-F (at least to date). It's not to say that the other larger cams (video orientation, wildlife, etc.) don't make sense - but travel & street shooting is a natural strength of m4/3 - so why not make the best rangefinder cam you can? Meaning great EVF, weather sealing, strong IBIS, and good portability. My ideal would be just a slightly slimmed down GX8, or even same size if the a good IBIS (including hand held high res) necessitates it. This is where this system wins - despite Sony's efforts with the A7C, by the time you add lenses to it - I just feel it's not it for a high end compact travel cam.Weather sealing is no biggie for me. But once you've used cameras with brilliant EVF's such as the GX8 and G9, those GX EVF's have very little appeal. To me. Yeah, they're perfectly usable, but just don't take a look through the other two I mentioned
WR indeed does not neccessary require GX to grow in size. Nor a bigge hand grip (the hand grip of GX7 is good enough to me). Nor an improved IBIS. In fact GX85 and GX9 uses a 5-axis floating IBIS sensor told it. Nor a 20Mp sensor, GX9 proved it. 4K requires Panny to put in a bigger heat sink to tackle heat issue, again GX85/GX9 proved it could retain their size for the job. Also a tiltable evf that GX7 and GX9 confirmed won't need a size of GX8 to do it.
Therefore, a large evf, in 4:3 format indeed is the key reason for the GX8 to have a size similar, or even larger than G85...
Ergonomically and feature wise, there is the G85/95 already ( no more size advantage, as a RF form factor, of GX8), can't see any factor for Panny to maintain a GX8 line of product (GX85 and GX9 are IMHO intentionally to keep non WR as class differentiation from G). The sales condition of GX8 said it, and with this difficult market condition...?
Hence if looking for a RF model because of size (I do, only reason to use GXs), prepare to accept the tiny evf of GX85/9.
If size is not an issue, more realistically look for a G.
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Albert
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Cafe Racer
Senior Member
It is possible to see significant price reductions, which appears to come from the retailer and not the manufacturer, at least here in the UK. This is not just for cameras that are being discontinued. Some retailers seem to be prepared to offer discounts beyond what would normally be expected, for whatever reason.
The most recent case I remember was last year when British retailer John Lewis had what could be described as a 'fire sale' on the Panasonic G90 - £499 for body only and I think £599 for the kit. The discount continued until the stock was sold out. As far as I'm aware it was never re-stocked on their website. I also remember LCE offering a £300 discount on the Olympus Pen F when it was a current model and was not discounted elsewhere.
There's also manager's specials. I bought 4 Panasonic GF7+12-32mm kits for £125 each when they were being sold elsewhere for £350.
Of course, it's not known if or when a retailer may offer a deep discount on any particular camera but it does happen, so not impossible for it to happen with the G100.
The most recent case I remember was last year when British retailer John Lewis had what could be described as a 'fire sale' on the Panasonic G90 - £499 for body only and I think £599 for the kit. The discount continued until the stock was sold out. As far as I'm aware it was never re-stocked on their website. I also remember LCE offering a £300 discount on the Olympus Pen F when it was a current model and was not discounted elsewhere.
There's also manager's specials. I bought 4 Panasonic GF7+12-32mm kits for £125 each when they were being sold elsewhere for £350.
Of course, it's not known if or when a retailer may offer a deep discount on any particular camera but it does happen, so not impossible for it to happen with the G100.
Laszlo13
Leading Member
I'm not arguing against the rationale for the GX7 / GX9 - I had the GX7 and really liked it's form factor. And if it's possible to fit the best IBIS, and high end EVF into a size like that, all the better! Absolutely right that the weather sealing can be done at any size. However, the GX9's IBIS isn't as effective as the G9. I'm suggesting to make a range finder style camera that's the best it can be - pretty much no one else is doing it in any format, except for Fuji (and even theirs lacks IBIS). Many people don't like the SLR form factor - but would love the equivalent capability in a rangefinder body. Heck - I would have already bought the G100 if they kept it in a rangefinder body (i.e. an evolution of the GM5).You might notice that GX8 is the largest GX. A major reason delayed my upgrade from GX7, waiting for more than a year to skip the GX8.I continue to be perplexed by both Olympus and Panasonic of not continuing the GX8 and Pen-F (at least to date). It's not to say that the other larger cams (video orientation, wildlife, etc.) don't make sense - but travel & street shooting is a natural strength of m4/3 - so why not make the best rangefinder cam you can? Meaning great EVF, weather sealing, strong IBIS, and good portability. My ideal would be just a slightly slimmed down GX8, or even same size if the a good IBIS (including hand held high res) necessitates it. This is where this system wins - despite Sony's efforts with the A7C, by the time you add lenses to it - I just feel it's not it for a high end compact travel cam.Weather sealing is no biggie for me. But once you've used cameras with brilliant EVF's such as the GX8 and G9, those GX EVF's have very little appeal. To me. Yeah, they're perfectly usable, but just don't take a look through the other two I mentioned
... Hence if looking for a RF model because of size (I do, only reason to use GXs), prepare to accept the tiny evf of GX85/9.
If size is not an issue, more realistically look for a G.
I guess it depends on how sensitive you are to EVF quality. I own a G9 and GX9 and sometimes go out shooting with both. If I swap between them and take the time to examine their EVFs then I can see that the G9's is better, but to me it's a pretty minor difference.Weather sealing is no biggie for me. But once you've used cameras with brilliant EVF's such as the GX8 and G9, those GX EVF's have very little appeal. To me. Yeah, they're perfectly usable, but just don't take a look through the other two I mentioned
When I'm actually using the EVFs to frame a shot they both work fine and the size/quality differences isn't something I ever really think about. Personally I much prefer using the GX9 - despite any technical deficiencies it suits me much better.
Great write up Helen, thank you! I think it is an interesting body if looked at as an "evolution of the GM line".
I use my GM1 with the pan 30 macro for handheld macro all the time and don't miss ibis on that at all despite having a G9. It's convenient and I'm usually taking pictures of moving subjects anyway, so IBIS won't do much for me.
People will tend to mount short focal lengths on the small bodies which negates some need for IBIS for photography so I think the exclusion isn't as tragic as folks make it out to be.
For vid they have hybrid IBIS, you just have to give up some resolution for it.
007peter
Forum Pro
Agree, it's hard to argue against GX9 in term of functions (but) I ♡ small camera. My biggest criticism against m43 of late was the huge size & weight gained. G9 has amazing price and spec but is bigger than both Panasonic S5 and Sony A7iii Fullframe. GM1/GM5 were lovely but is no longer in production. G100 (really is the only choice) for the old M43 faithful who value small camera
Agree 200%. My eyes hurts looking through the tiny EVF of the GM5. It was so painful to use that I'll just the LCD the entire time. What I really need is an updated GM series with Bigger Center-Mount EVF with a full articulating LCD, and G100 comes closest to that ideal camera for me. I totally understand why you want a G100. It's the only M43 camera that is worthy of replacing my GF6.
Agree 300% on "I don't want to pay full price for G100" too. My biggest problem is the price of the competition. As of today, I can buy a newly refurbish Canon M50 from Canon.com for just $460! It has the big center EVF + articulating LCD + small lightweight camera design I ♡. The price saving would allow me to buy either a Canon 22mm F/2 pancake or Viltrox 23mm F/1.4 of my choosing. Then again, stay with M43 = no need to buy new lens. It would be nice if there is a G100 Fire Sale
to removed the quandary. Sadly, I don't think that'll happen any time soon Best of Luck
ps ~ I heard somebody is able to dug up a pile of poorly sold Nintendo games burried in the desert and resold on EBay as collectors item. Maybe we should do some desert hunting for the Lost Treasured of M43, I called dip on an Olympus Pen F
Sad that no camera can now be made without IBIS - that puts an end to any GM5 update - Fuji has also just released a compact camera without IBIS - my guess that the IBIS knives are being sharpened already.I'm also not convinced that size is the reason for not having any kind of IBIS in the G100. Panasonic could use their older 3 axis IBIS system like what Olympus done with their Pen Lite line.Hmmm, take a a good look at this:
There is a good reason the GM5 did not have IBIS: size.
However,
There is no excuse the G100 does not have IBIS.
At least Panasonic has put lens IS in every lens that has really needed it. The Olympus 12-100/4.0 IS works very well on a GM5, in fact the horribly unstable Olympus 75/1.8 works very well on my equally unstable GM5 - one of my favourite combinations.
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Tom Caldwell
You have to give Panasonic a clap for testing a segment of the market with an actual product. It might not be the camera for everyone - like the GM series was - but I am so glad that they also tested another market segment with the GM5 and that I had the wit to buy a few whilst they were still available as new.I agree that making sound business decisions is important under the current market conditions. Given the criticism levelled against the G100, questioning it's competitiveness as a vlogging camera, it could turn out that Panasonic misjudged the market and failed to add the right specs for the target customer. Time will tell I guess.Panny indeed did it.I'm also not convinced that size is the reason for not having any kind of IBIS in the G100. Panasonic could use their older 3 axis IBIS system like what Olympus done with their Pen Lite line.Hmmm, take a a good look at this:
There is a good reason the GM5 did not have IBIS: size.
However,
There is no excuse the G100 does not have IBIS.
But G100 8s built on the GF9/10 instead of a full IBIS support GX85/9... Put on a big evf, add a more substantial grip at the front, add 2 extra internal mic and install a new audio system... Its launching price is indeed close to its higher spec brother, GX9 IIRC. What better than this way of escalating the price of an existing model.
If Panny use a GX9 instead (change the evf, put in 2 extra internal mic, enlarge the front hand grip... ), it could become a non WR version, video centric G95. I suppose it would cost a lot more ( at least more than G95)... Also such new model must be heavier than G100, making it less desirable for selfie/vlogging.
Moreover, under the current market uncertainty (Covid 19), what would you do if you are the boss. To test the water (vlogging centric) by launching a cheaper repackage GF9/10, or a high launching price repackage GX9/G95?
It is not easy to make business decision under the current market: shrinking + unbelievably long dragging pandemic.
If the G100 lights your fire then buy one now and don’t hang about waiting for the fire sale - once they are gone they will be gone.
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Tom Caldwell
Sounds like their bank manager talking ... need to reduce the overdraft by getting rid of slow moving over-stocked (at any price). Also a smart business practice. A shelf full of stock that is not selling - get rid of it quick and buy no more.
Or it could be a manufacturer special deal - buy 100 units and we will give you a unit price you could not refuse but you will have to pass it on and unload this stock quickly.
Even multinational corporations have nervous bank managers as well.
cba_melbourne
Veteran Member
Not necessarily. The Pen-F is actually 1mm THINNER than the GM5, and does have a quite good IBIS.Sad that no camera can now be made without IBIS - that puts an end to any GM5 updateI'm also not convinced that size is the reason for not having any kind of IBIS in the G100. Panasonic could use their older 3 axis IBIS system like what Olympus done with their Pen Lite line.Hmmm, take a a good look at this:
There is a good reason the GM5 did not have IBIS: size.
However,
There is no excuse the G100 does not have IBIS.
The GM5 is now 6 years old, the Pen-F 5 years. Chances are today a GM5 successor could be designed with an IBIS, and without any size penalty for it.
But yes, I agree in 2021 an m43 camera without IBIS is doomed to become a flop. We have come to expect IBIS as a basic necessity.
Smaller batches are also more expensive per unit but reduce the risk of heavy discounted residual stock from excessive over-production.The market has changed radically, and the manufacturers have to change their marketing strategies to cope with it. The days of deep discounting might be over. Even for Panasonic, who was always loved for slashing prices six months after launch, and bundling free lenses into the deal. (Think: GX85 with two kit lenses for $499. Why on earth would anyone buy a used one, when the new ones are selling so cheaply?)
According to CIPA statistics the average price of a MILC camera since 2012 has more than doubled, while the average price of a DSLR has remained virtually flat. This shows us that manufacturers are increasing prices faster on MILC cameras because it is the best performing type of camera they have.
I suspect manufacturers might be producing in much smaller batches now to closely match sales. If true, the result would much less excess inventory, and much less reason to discount.
There is also the issue of re-setting production lines more often as they switch from product to product. I imagine that there is a limit to how many parallel production lines any particular corporate can handle until it even gets down to bespoke assembly on bench by demand.
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Tom Caldwell
Impulses
Forum Pro
Yeah it's getting skewered in the comments... On the one hand, you could get a similarly sized GX85 years ago with IBIS, so I see people's point, a small body like that is often someone's primary body so they're right to want IBIS. OTOH, IBIS isn't really standard fare at that price point if you look at it's direct APS-C competitors. The Z50 doesn't have IBIS, nor does the 6400 or the M6 II.Sad that no camera can now be made without IBIS - that puts an end to any GM5 update - Fuji has also just released a compact camera without IBIS - my guess that the IBIS knives are being sharpened already.I'm also not convinced that size is the reason for not having any kind of IBIS in the G100. Panasonic could use their older 3 axis IBIS system like what Olympus done with their Pen Lite line.Hmmm, take a a good look at this:
There is a good reason the GM5 did not have IBIS: size.
However,
There is no excuse the G100 does not have IBIS.
I dunno how well any of them are doing in the market, but that's still (or used to be) the pricing sweet spot for smaller formats, so if they're not doing well then I guess no APS-C or M4/3 player is doing well anymore. Time will tell...
In a way they've fallen into a similar trap than M4/3's midrange bodies did. For "just" $150 more than the X-E4 you can simply get the X-S10 with IBIS, a way nicer EVF, etc. You've then traded away a good deal of the former's compact nature tho, and round and round we go! It's worth noting that in a very un-Fuji like move they also dumbed it down a little, took a dial away, etc.
Yeah, I didn't think much of it at the time but I'm rather glad they stuck OIS into stuff like the 42.5/1.7 (half the reason I got it) and even tiny zooms like the 35-100 f4-5.6. You can pry my 75/1.8 from my cold dead hands! I've looked hard for anything in another format that's as small while having the same reach even if it's slower (by equivalence even) or not nearly as sharp, even vintage options end up being larger once you add an adapter.
It's kinda heavy for such a small lens but I think that actually helps with using proper hand holding technique when you've got it on a tiny body. I need to use my 35-100/2.8 some more on the GX850, it's versatility & OIS should be useful at times... But I keep grabbing that 42.5/1.7 + 75/1.8 combo most of the time.
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