Why most cameras as default, forcing you to press a button for changing ISO via dial?

john isaacs said:

Bill Ferris said:

cameras prioritize allowing photographers ease and immediacy of elllllllxposure and creative control. It just makes sense that shutter speed & f-stop are controllable via dials using the right thumb and index finger.

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I turn a dial on the camera to change shutter speed, and turn a ring on the lens to control aperture. Which makes sense, because the shutter is in the camera and the aperture is in the lens.

Right?

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If an aperture ring is what's available to the photographer to control f-stop, it should be designed to be reachable and adjustable without having to significantly change your left hand position on the lens. I use an aperture ring to control f-stop on the lens mounted to my X-T20 and it's conveniently adjustable using my left thumb.

Personally, I prefer Nikon's (and others') interface of using the front and rear command dials on the camera body to control f-stop and shutter speed. I infrequently adjust ISO and, while not as convenient, it's not inconvenient to adjust.

Erik Baumgartner said:

If you have the Exposure Compensation dial in C mode and manually set SS and aperture, the front command dial effectively acts as an ISO dial.

Click to expand...

No. it doesn't work like that. I just tried again to confirm it that it doesn't work that way.

ms18 said:

mahidoes said:

If you have the Exposure Compensation dial in C mode and manually set SS and aperture, the front command dial effectively acts as an ISO dial.

Click to expand...

No. it doesn't work like that. I just tried again to confirm it that it doesn't work that way.

Click to expand...

Sure it does, if your SS and aperture are fixed, the EC dial will fine tune the ISO.

No, it doesn't operate like a discrete ISO dial, but that wasn't the point, why manually set everything every time if the camera can do the same thing you would instantly and automatically? If you want three discrete dials, you want an X-T2 or similar.

john isaacs said:

Bill Ferris said:

cameras prioritize allowing photographers ease and immediacy of elllllllxposure and creative control. It just makes sense that shutter speed & f-stop are controllable via dials using the right thumb and index finger.

Click to expand...

I turn a dial on the camera to change shutter speed, and turn a ring on the lens to control aperture. Which makes sense, because the shutter is in the camera and the aperture is in the lens.

Right?

Click to expand...

Makes sense but perhaps doesn't work as well. The way one holds a lens, one can only operate one control ring on the lens at a time. For a zoom lens, you'd need three control rings; zoom, aperture and focus. Only one of those three can be in an optimal position. Putting three control rings on a lens, instead of two, makes acessing the right ring more difficult.

Erik Baumgartner said:

ms18 said:

Erik Baumgartner said:

If you have the Exposure Compensation dial in C mode and manually set SS and aperture, the front command dial effectively acts as an ISO dial.

Click to expand...

No. it doesn't work like that. I just tried again to confirm it that it doesn't work that way.

Click to expand...

Sure it does, if your SS and aperture are fixed, the EC dial will fine tune the ISO.

Click to expand...

I tried again dear. It doesn't work nor change ISO. It does nothing when Apeture and Shutter speed was set manually. When only one was selected manually it compensate the exposure as it suppose to.

http://fujifilm-dsc.com/en-int/manual/x-t2/taking_photo/exposure/index.html

This is what it does. It doesn't change ISO

Erik Baumgartner said:

why manually set everything every time if the camera can do the same thing you would instantly and automatically?

Click to expand...

I use dedicated camera to have the full control. I have used auto exposure when I was using OVF and DSLR. Even that was in certain circumstances. Even with OVF i shot 60% full manual. Now that i can preview exposure in my Viewfinder I do every thing manually. This was one of the reason i moved to mirrorless camera.

Erik Baumgartner said:

If you want three discrete dials, you want an X-T2 or similar.

Click to expand...

Correct,

[No message]

ms18 said:

Erik Baumgartner said:

ms18 said:

mahidoes said:

If you have the Exposure Compensation dial in C mode and manually set SS and aperture, the front command dial effectively acts as an ISO dial.

Click to expand...

No. it doesn't work like that. I just tried again to confirm it that it doesn't work that way.

Click to expand...

Sure it does, if your SS and aperture are fixed, the EC dial will fine tune the ISO.

Click to expand...

I tried again dear. It doesn't work nor change ISO. It does nothing when Apeture and Shutter speed was set manually. When only one was selected manually it compensate the exposure as it suppose to.

Click to expand...

If your other fixed parameters put ISO 200-12800 in range it does (make sure you click the front dial to select EC control). Like I said using SS in Auto works best most of the time, though when shooting low light theatre I often set a fixed aperture and SS and manually tweak the ISO with the front dial. I’ve done it a million times, it works.

mahidoes said:

http://fujifilm-dsc.com/en-int/manual/x-t2/taking_photo/exposure/index.html

This is what it does. It doesn't change ISO

Click to expand...

It adjusts exposure compensation, if the other two parameters are fixed, it effectively controls ISO.

mahidoes said:

mahidoes said:

why manually set everything every time if the camera can do the same thing you would instantly and automatically?

Click to expand...

I use dedicated camera to have the full control. I have used auto exposure when I was using OVF and DSLR. Even that was in certain circumstances. Even with OVF i shot 60% full manual. Now that i can preview exposure in my Viewfinder I do every thing manually. This was one of the reason i moved to mirrorless camera.

Click to expand...

I much prefer semi-manual, I still maintain the same full creative control, but with much greater speed and versatility. I can shoot continuously walking from blazing sunshine into a dark interior space without missing a beat, exposing perfectly the whole time with just an aperture change, fine-tuning exposure, as always, with just a tweak of the front dial if needed with my eye in the viewfinder the whole time. The aperture is always manually chosen, SS is automatic and always above a chosen minimum, ISO is whatever it needs to be to satisfy the other two creatively important parameters.

mahidoes said:

mahidoes said:

If you want three discrete dials, you want an X-T2 or similar.

Click to expand...

Correct,

Click to expand...

I have both cameras. I don’t really miss the ISO dial much on the X-T20, but as I always use the EC dial in “C” mode, I would rather it be an ISO dial instead. Some newer models without ISO dials do allow you to assign normal ISO control to the front dial, my X100V does, I’m pretty sure the X-T30 does too.

mahidoes said:

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Click to expand...

Erik Baumgartner said:

If your other fixed parameters put ISO 200-12800 in range

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Can you explain more clearly. Which place you want me to put this range?

Erik Baumgartner said:

it does (make sure you click the front dial to select EC control).

Click to expand...

What is EC control? I also tried clicking and rotating front dail, no avail.

Erik Baumgartner said:

It adjusts exposure compensation, if the other two parameters are fixed, it effectively controls ISO.

Click to expand...

In my case. rotating front dial does nothing. I always keep every parameters fixed. My dials have never been parked to A from the day i bought the camera.

Erik Baumgartner said:

I much prefer semi-manual,

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In my theory there is Auto and Manual. By semi manual you are choosing which parameters camera can have to get the right exposure according to the camera. Still the exposure is auto and beyond your manual control of light. I want to have exact consistent exposure in my photos. This also make my editing process easy when i have many photos.

Erik Baumgartner said:

I still maintain the same full creative control,

Click to expand...

You will have creative control but not exposure (amount of light) control.

Erik Baumgartner said:

but with much greater speed and versatility.

Click to expand...

As a person who want perfect light in photos full manual is easy and versatile. Might not same for every one! I don't argue my way is easy for every one. But certainly it's hell lot easier for me.

Erik Baumgartner said:

I can shoot continuously walking from blazing sunshine into a dark interior space without missing a beat, exposing perfectly the whole time with just an aperture change, fine-tuning exposure, as always, with just a tweak of the front dial if needed with my eye in the viewfinder the whole time. The aperture is always manually chosen, SS is automatic and always above a chosen minimum, ISO is whatever it needs to be to satisfy the other two creatively important parameters.

Click to expand...

Good!

Erik Baumgartner said:

I have both cameras. I don’t really miss the ISO dial much on the X-T20, but as I always use the EC dial in “C” mode, I would rather it be an ISO dial instead.

Click to expand...

I'm trying to figure out that, but no success :-(

Erik Baumgartner said:

Some newer models without ISO dials do allow you to assign normal ISO control to the front dial, my X100V does, I’m pretty sure the X-T30 does too.

Click to expand...

Yes yes. Have been told. I also like 15sec exposure in bulb mode which my X-T20 doens't have.

Thanks for trying to help me.

Why ?

Because to many shifting by mistake the aperture or shutters speed dial soon becomes more obvious than doing that with the ISO dial.

yes , I do understand that this does not work for you but it does for others.

ms18 said:

mahidoes said:

If your other fixed parameters put ISO 200-12800 in range

Click to expand...

Can you explain more clearly. Which place you want me to put this range?

Click to expand...

If your other fixed parameters don’t force the Auto ISO to one end if the ISO range, you will be able to adjust it using the front dial (EC dial in C mode - rotate the top EC dial to “C”)

mahidoes said:

mahidoes said:

it does (make sure you click the front dial to select EC control).

Click to expand...

What is EC control? I also tried clicking and rotating front dail, no avail.

Click to expand...

mahidoes said:

Clicking the front dial will move a half moon (dial) icon between different parameters to adjust (Exposure Compensation is the +/- icon)

Click to expand...

mahidoes said:

mahidoes said:

It adjusts exposure compensation, if the other two parameters are fixed, it effectively controls ISO.

Click to expand...

In my case. rotating front dial does nothing. I always keep every parameters fixed. My dials have never been parked to A from the day i bought the camera.

Click to expand...

Try it, you pick which ones that must be at a specific setting and the camera automatically adjusts the others to where they need to be - and you manually fine tune with EC on the front dial (if necessary)

mahidoes said:

mahidoes said:

I much prefer semi-manual,

Click to expand...

In my theory there is Auto and Manual. By semi manual you are choosing which parameters camera can have to get the right exposure according to the camera. Still the exposure is auto and beyond your manual control of light. I want to have exact consistent exposure in my photos. This also make my editing process easy when i have many photos.

mahidoes said:

I still maintain the same full creative control,

Click to expand...

You will have creative control but not exposure (amount of light) control.

Click to expand...

Of course you do, you set the critical parameters and Auto ISO automatically adjusts the others to get the exposure in the ballpark - you can then tweak the exposure up or down to exactly where you want it using one finger on the front dial in a split second. There’s nothing wrong with shooting manual, but it’s slow and difficult to manage in quickly changing circumstances and one front fingertip dial is a lot easier and faster to adjust with your eye in the EVF than two awkward top dials.

mahidoes said:

mahidoes said:

but with much greater speed and versatility.

Click to expand...

As a person who want perfect light in photos full manual is easy and versatile. Might not same for every one! I don't argue my way is easy for every one. But certainly it's hell lot easier for me.

mahidoes said:

I can shoot continuously walking from blazing sunshine into a dark interior space without missing a beat, exposing perfectly the whole time with just an aperture change, fine-tuning exposure, as always, with just a tweak of the front dial if needed with my eye in the viewfinder the whole time. The aperture is always manually chosen, SS is automatic and always above a chosen minimum, ISO is whatever it needs to be to satisfy the other two creatively important parameters.

Click to expand...

Good!

mahidoes said:

I have both cameras. I don’t really miss the ISO dial much on the X-T20, but as I always use the EC dial in “C” mode, I would rather it be an ISO dial instead.

Click to expand...

I'm trying to figure out that, but no success :-(

mahidoes said:

Some newer models without ISO dials do allow you to assign normal ISO control to the front dial, my X100V does, I’m pretty sure the X-T30 does too.

Click to expand...

Yes yes. Have been told. I also like 15sec exposure in bulb mode which my X-T20 doens't have.

Thanks for trying to help me.

Click to expand...

No problemo. I’m not saying that my method is necessarily right for you, but you might want explore some alternate approaches (not just mine) so that you have a better understanding if what’s possible. There are lots of clever ways to set up and use these cameras, some far more efficient than others. There’s much to ponder and experiment with. It’ll take a while to figure out what suits you best.

Erik Baumgartner said:

ms18 said:

Erik Baumgartner said:

If you have the Exposure Compensation dial in C mode and manually set SS and aperture, the front command dial effectively acts as an ISO dial.

Click to expand...

No. it doesn't work like that. I just tried again to confirm it that it doesn't work that way.

Click to expand...

Sure it does, if your SS and aperture are fixed, the EC dial will fine tune the ISO.

No, it doesn't operate like a discrete ISO dial, but that wasn't the point, why manually set everything every time if the camera can do the same thing you would instantly and automatically? If you want three discrete dials, you want an X-T2 or similar.

Click to expand...

Pressing the front dial toggles between shutter time and EC

ms18 said:

Erik Baumgartner said:

ms18 said:

mahidoes said:

If you have the Exposure Compensation dial in C mode and manually set SS and aperture, the front command dial effectively acts as an ISO dial.

Click to expand...

No. it doesn't work like that. I just tried again to confirm it that it doesn't work that way.

Click to expand...

Sure it does, if your SS and aperture are fixed, the EC dial will fine tune the ISO.

Click to expand...

I tried again dear. It doesn't work nor change ISO. It does nothing when Apeture and Shutter speed was set manually. When only one was selected manually it compensate the exposure as it suppose to.

http://fujifilm-dsc.com/en-int/manual/x-t2/taking_photo/exposure/index.html

This is what it does. It doesn't change ISO

Click to expand...

Camera manufacturers don't agree on what the EC control does with the camera in auto ISO and M mode. Some think it's just a meter bias, and it biasses the meter, whichever mode you are in. Others think that it is 'exposure compensation' and it can only affect exposure, not ISO.

24IS said:

Responding narrowly to your question by restricting my observations to Canon cameras, the first implementation of ASA/ISO by a switch was on the T70 (1984). The AE1 Program and the New F-1 coupled ASA/ISO implementation with the exposure compensation dial situated below the rewind knob. Canon first placed the ASA/ISO dial here on the EF (1971), without any exposure compensation feature. On other cameras, the ASA/ISO selection was made on the shutter speed dial. In both instances it was a form of simple resistive electrical coupling that affected the sensitivity of the meter.

I found the arrangement on the New F-1 to be particularly convenient, as, I could set the ASA/ISO to my most frequently used film speed, and simply adjust the exposure compensation dial up or down when I used a different film. In terms of exposure, the effect was the same.

With the transition to all-electronic cameras, Canon did away with electro-mechanical couplings to supply inputs. For good or bad, you could argue that an all-electronic system of inputs would offer more reliability in the long run. Certainly all cameras that offer a dial to implement ISO nowadays, do so by electronic means.

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On various Canonets (QL17, 28 at least) you set the ASA using a dial on the lens. Nikkormats do something similar. On the Olympus Trip setting the ASA simply covers or hides some of the sensor with a little screen ( https://www.petervis.com/electronic...mon Issues/Olympus Trip 35 Selenium Cell.html ) but then the Trip is a masterpiece of simplicity of design.

FingerPainter said:

I think the answer is that the shape of the human hand and the way it holds the camera means that it is not practical to have more than two general-purpose command dials that the user can use without taking their eye from the viewfinder.

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I find the three dials of my R6 quite practical. I have the front dial (index finger) assigned to shutter speed, the back dial (thumb, up) assigned to f-number, and the “wheel” (thumb, down) assigned to the ISO setting in increments of one whole stop (since that’s where the drops in read noise occur). I certainly don’t need to look at them to use them.

I need to have ISO set to Auto for this.

Thanks for your replies. I'll try that and see if it improve my work flow.

Also what is easy is depend of what we shoot. If you are a landscape shooter with tripod you will definitely find shooting full manual is far easier

Many cameras allow you to change default settings but that said I suspect most people use auto ISO, don't want a wheel dedicated to ISO and would rather press a button first for the few times they want to change it. Default settings are set at the most common usage.

ms18 said:

That's why i mentioned "as default"

I use back button focusing but I do understand why that's not default.

But i strongly believe changing ISO should not be burred as default in today's era.
In my Fuji X-T20 there is no way to change ISO without pressing another button first. But indeed Aperture and Shutter can be changed by rotating dials.

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Unfortunately you are the exception to the rule and camera companies aren't going to satisfy the desires of a few people at the expense of the majority.

Overrank said:

24IS said:

Responding narrowly to your question by restricting my observations to Canon cameras, the first implementation of ASA/ISO by a switch was on the T70 (1984). The AE1 Program and the New F-1 coupled ASA/ISO implementation with the exposure compensation dial situated below the rewind knob. Canon first placed the ASA/ISO dial here on the EF (1971), without any exposure compensation feature. On other cameras, the ASA/ISO selection was made on the shutter speed dial. In both instances it was a form of simple resistive electrical coupling that affected the sensitivity of the meter.

I found the arrangement on the New F-1 to be particularly convenient, as, I could set the ASA/ISO to my most frequently used film speed, and simply adjust the exposure compensation dial up or down when I used a different film. In terms of exposure, the effect was the same.

With the transition to all-electronic cameras, Canon did away with electro-mechanical couplings to supply inputs. For good or bad, you could argue that an all-electronic system of inputs would offer more reliability in the long run. Certainly all cameras that offer a dial to implement ISO nowadays, do so by electronic means.

Click to expand...

On various Canonets (QL17, 28 at least) you set the ASA using a dial on the lens.

Click to expand...

That's right. The shutter speed was also selected by a dial on the lens. This approach made sense, since the camera was equipped with a leaf shutter. As I recall, the meter cell was mounted on the front of the lens bezel.

Overrank said:

Nikkormats do something similar.

Click to expand...

I used Nikons (F2AS, Nikkormat FTN) for a few years in the early 1980s. It's been a while. As I recall, the ASA setting was part of the, shutter speed ring that was situated behind the aperture coupling assembly.

Overrank said:

On the Olympus Trip setting the ASA simply covers or hides some of the sensor with a little screen ( https://www.petervis.com/electronic...mon Issues/Olympus Trip 35 Selenium Cell.html ) but then the Trip is a masterpiece of simplicity of design.

Click to expand...

john isaacs said:

Bill Ferris said:

cameras prioritize allowing photographers ease and immediacy of elllllllxposure and creative control. It just makes sense that shutter speed & f-stop are controllable via dials using the right thumb and index finger.

Click to expand...

I turn a dial on the camera to change shutter speed

Click to expand...

Yes.

john isaacs said:

and turn a ring on the lens to control aperture.

Click to expand...

No. Most (maybe all?) modern lenses are gelded, meaning there is no physical aperture control on the lens. The rings on the lens are for focus and zoom (or just 1 focus ring for primes.)

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24IS said:

Overrank said:

24IS said:

Responding narrowly to your question by restricting my observations to Canon cameras, the first implementation of ASA/ISO by a switch was on the T70 (1984). The AE1 Program and the New F-1 coupled ASA/ISO implementation with the exposure compensation dial situated below the rewind knob. Canon first placed the ASA/ISO dial here on the EF (1971), without any exposure compensation feature. On other cameras, the ASA/ISO selection was made on the shutter speed dial. In both instances it was a form of simple resistive electrical coupling that affected the sensitivity of the meter.

I found the arrangement on the New F-1 to be particularly convenient, as, I could set the ASA/ISO to my most frequently used film speed, and simply adjust the exposure compensation dial up or down when I used a different film. In terms of exposure, the effect was the same.

With the transition to all-electronic cameras, Canon did away with electro-mechanical couplings to supply inputs. For good or bad, you could argue that an all-electronic system of inputs would offer more reliability in the long run. Certainly all cameras that offer a dial to implement ISO nowadays, do so by electronic means.

Click to expand...

On various Canonets (QL17, 28 at least) you set the ASA using a dial on the lens.

Click to expand...

That's right. The shutter speed was also selected by a dial on the lens. This approach made sense, since the camera was equipped with a leaf shutter. As I recall, the meter cell was mounted on the front of the lens bezel.

Click to expand...

Yes, the original Canonets had a Selenium meter wrapped around the lens like thE Trip, the later ones had a CdS cell above the lens. You get automatic filter correction that way too.

Charles McRobert said:

Charles McRobert said:

Nikkormats do something similar.

Click to expand...

I used Nikons (F2AS, Nikkormat FTN) for a few years in the early 1980s. It's been a while. As I recall, the ASA setting was part of the, shutter speed ring that was situated behind the aperture coupling assembly.

Click to expand...

On the Nikkormats it was part of the shutter speed ring behind the lens mount, on the F2 it’s part of the metered heads DP-1, -2, -3, -11, -12. There’s also the DE-1 unmetered head. The ASA selector is part of the shutter speed dial on the metered heads.