New P700 and P900 : Explicit Note about aftermarket inks ?

NAwlins Contrarian said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

This started many years after Epson lost the class action lawsuit.

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By any chance can you cite to the judgment where you say Epson lost a class-action lawsuit? Or even link to a reputable media report about it? I'd be very interested to see what there is to it, and would report back here what I found. Thanks!

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The above were more recent class actions against Epson. Below is what I think was the original suit where Epson was sued because an Epson cartridge was declared 'empty' but there was still ink in the cartridge. Mike Lee at Precision ink discussed this in great detail on a chat with Jose Rodriguez last week or the week before. I recommend listening to that discussion. Epson had to do it the way they did (have a certain amount of ink in cartridge) because the printer would be damaged otherwise. After that lawsuit, Epson redesigned their cartridges and attemted to shutdown refill practices of users. Here is a link:

Philip Eihuyar said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Philip Eihuyar said:

This started many years after Epson lost the class action lawsuit.

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By any chance can you cite to the judgment where you say Epson lost a class-action lawsuit? Or even link to a reputable media report about it? I'd be very interested to see what there is to it, and would report back here what I found. Thanks!

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https://www.classaction.org/blog/cl...ned-printers-using-third-party-ink-cartridges

https://trofire.com/2019/11/13/laws...-disable-themselves-if-you-use-non-epson-ink/

The above were more recent class actions against Epson. Below is what I think was the original suit where Epson was sued because an Epson cartridge was declared 'empty' but there was still ink in the cartridge. Mike Lee at Precision ink discussed this in great detail on a chat with Jose Rodriguez last week or the week before. I recommend listening to that discussion. Epson had to do it the way they did (have a certain amount of ink in cartridge) because the printer would be damaged otherwise. After that lawsuit, Epson redesigned their cartridges and attemted to shutdown refill practices of users. Here is a link:

https://www.pcworld.com/article/113112/article.html

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Where is the link to the claimed lost lawsuit?

I don't know if the lawsuit was successful or not. No link to that. What I have heard from the discussion on this was with Mike at precision with Jose Rodriguez. What he said -if I am remembering correctly, is that the lawsuit forced or caused Epson to re-design the cartridges so the 'declared empty' was closer to actually being empty and therefore addressing the complaints of the users. I don't remember him saying if the lawsuit was successful though. BTW, why are you asking? Here is a link to a 3 hour discussion I referred to:
It has a lot of valuable information on Epson and Canon printer cartridges

Philip Eihuyar said:

BTW, why are you asking?

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Because that was what mikling claimed. Interested in facts.

Philip Eihuyar said:

Philip Eihuyar said:

Philip Eihuyar said:

This started many years after Epson lost the class action lawsuit.

Click to expand...

By any chance can you cite to the judgment where you say Epson lost a class-action lawsuit? Or even link to a reputable media report about it? I'd be very interested to see what there is to it, and would report back here what I found. Thanks!

Click to expand...

https://www.classaction.org/blog/cl...ned-printers-using-third-party-ink-cartridges

https://trofire.com/2019/11/13/laws...-disable-themselves-if-you-use-non-epson-ink/

The above were more recent class actions against Epson. Below is what I think was the original suit where Epson was sued because an Epson cartridge was declared 'empty' but there was still ink in the cartridge. Mike Lee at Precision ink discussed this in great detail on a chat with Jose Rodriguez last week or the week before. I recommend listening to that discussion. Epson had to do it the way they did (have a certain amount of ink in cartridge) because the printer would be damaged otherwise. After that lawsuit, Epson redesigned their cartridges and attemted to shutdown refill practices of users. Here is a link:

https://www.pcworld.com/article/113112/article.html

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I checked all three of those links, and they refer to lawsuits being filed, not Epson losing a lawsuit. It is important to remember:

(1) many lawsuits are dismissed without the defendant (e.g., Epson) losing anything;

(2) many "putative" class action lawsuits are filed without the court ever "certifying" a class, i.e., without the court ever allowing the suit to proceed as a class action; and

(3) often class action lawsuits are settled on terms that contain no admission of wrongdoing and provide very little real benefit to the members of the plaintiff class (e.g. those unhappy about Epson printer behavior relative to ink cartridges).

To be clear, I'm not saying that mikling was wrong and/or that Epson did not lose a lawsuit, but those links fall far short of supporting the claim that "Epson lost the class action lawsuit". And I am saying that however knowledgeable Mike Lee at Precision Colors and Jose Rodriguez might be about printers and ink, I have no faith in the ability of either of them to determine the legal effects of some lawsuit that was filed. If somebody can give me a reliable link or citation to a judgment against Epson, I will try to obtain it, and I'd report on DPR what it says.

mikling said:

http://www.epsonsettlement.com/

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Thanks, I saw that on the other thread, where I'll probably comment at some length after my review of it is finished. But Epson didn't lose that suit, they entered a 'coupon settlement' where they did not admit fault. Such settlements are usually (but not always) viewed by uninvolved legal and consumer experts as being only minimally-beneficial to the people with potential claims. In a coupon settlement, the members of the plaintiff class get coupons for future purchases from the defendant. In this case the face value of the coupons was $45 each, but Epson very likely was banking on most of them not being cashed in--which it typical with these sorts of settlements. OTOH, if you give me a $45 couple to the Epson store, I'll use it; occasionally I buy ink there.

Those interested in what coupon settlements involve, and what issues they may raise, may want to read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupon_settlement

NAwlins Contrarian said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

http://www.epsonsettlement.com/

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Thanks, I saw that on the other thread, where I'll probably comment at some length after my review of it is finished. But Epson didn't lose that suit, they entered a 'coupon settlement' where they did not admit fault. Such settlements are usually (but not always) viewed by uninvolved legal and consumer experts as being only minimally-beneficial to the people with potential claims. In a coupon settlement, the members of the plaintiff class get coupons for future purchases from the defendant. In this case the face value of the coupons was $45 each, but Epson very likely was banking on most of them not being cashed in--which it typical with these sorts of settlements. OTOH, if you give me a $45 couple to the Epson store, I'll use it; occasionally I buy ink there.

Those interested in what coupon settlements involve, and what issues they may raise, may want to read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupon_settlement

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I had 2 Epson printers at the time, Epson sent me 2 coupons. Bought ink cartridges at the Epson store.

Bob P.

Petruska said:

Petruska said:

In this case the face value of the coupons was $45 each, but Epson very likely was banking on most of them not being cashed in--which it typical with these sorts of settlements. OTOH, if you give me a $45 couple to the Epson store, I'll use it; occasionally I buy ink there.

Those interested in what coupon settlements involve, and what issues they may raise, may want to read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupon_settlement

Click to expand...

I had 2 Epson printers at the time, Epson sent me 2 coupons. Bought ink cartridges at the Epson store.

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I bet you were happy to get $90 of ink for no out-of-pocket cost, and I would have been, too.

My thinking, though, is really on the question of whether these lawsuits--the 2006-ish one that got you the $90 of ink or the May 2020 refile of the suit dismissed in February that Rich42 linked to--are a major factor driving Epson's behavior. My suspicion is that they're not.

I really don't know where the ink market is headed. Obviously Epson and Canon selling 'tank' printers with presumably lower-quality ink sold much more cheaply, albeit with higher initial printer prices, has changed the market some. You seem to have a system that works well for you, where you've gathered OEM ink at fairly low princes and use it for refilling. But what will the landscape be in a few years for owners of the P700 and Pro-300?

NAwlins Contrarian said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

In this case the face value of the coupons was $45 each, but Epson very likely was banking on most of them not being cashed in--which it typical with these sorts of settlements. OTOH, if you give me a $45 couple to the Epson store, I'll use it; occasionally I buy ink there.

Those interested in what coupon settlements involve, and what issues they may raise, may want to read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupon_settlement

Click to expand...

I had 2 Epson printers at the time, Epson sent me 2 coupons. Bought ink cartridges at the Epson store.

Click to expand...

I bet you were happy to get $90 of ink for no out-of-pocket cost, and I would have been, too.

My thinking, though, is really on the question of whether these lawsuits--the 2006-ish one that got you the $90 of ink or the May 2020 refile of the suit dismissed in February that Rich42 linked to--are a major factor driving Epson's behavior. My suspicion is that they're not.

I really don't know where the ink market is headed. Obviously Epson and Canon selling 'tank' printers with presumably lower-quality ink sold much more cheaply, albeit with higher initial printer prices, has changed the market some. You seem to have a system that works well for you, where you've gathered OEM ink at fairly low princes and use it for refilling. But what will the landscape be in a few years for owners of the P700 and Pro-300?

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One must look at the Asia and European markets. Those markets don't block refilling the P800 with the firmware. The refilling ban for the P800 is only with north America printer firmware. Time will tell if Asia/Europe will be able to refill the P700/900 and the US won't.

In all honesty I don't believe that I will own a printer where I need to be locked into OEM cartridges. It would hurt my heart deeply to have to pay about $400 for s set of P900 OEM cartridges where I can now refill R3000 cartridges with Epson OEM ink with that same quantity of ink for $40. If I need a new printer someday and if the only way to refill is to own an Asian/European model I would import one if possible. If I couldn't refill any new printer I would need to look at getting out of printing.

Bob P.

Petruska said:

Petruska said:

I really don't know where the ink market is headed. Obviously Epson and Canon selling 'tank' printers with presumably lower-quality ink sold much more cheaply, albeit with higher initial printer prices, has changed the market some. You seem to have a system that works well for you, where you've gathered OEM ink at fairly low princes and use it for refilling. But what will the landscape be in a few years for owners of the P700 and Pro-300?

Click to expand...

One must look at the Asia and European markets. Those markets don't block refilling the P800 with the firmware. The refilling ban for the P800 is only with north America printer firmware. Time will tell if Asia/Europe will be able to refill the P700/900 and the US won't.

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I wonder--this is really only slightly-informed speculation--whether at one end of the spectrum, e.g. the E.U. prohibits by law the sort of technological approach that Epson has used in the U.S. to lock out third-party cartridges on the P800; and at the other end of the spectrum, e.g. China does not have much enforcement of Epson's intellectual property rights and bootleg ink kits are common.

The French magazine 'Reponse photo' ---edition September/October features a detailed review of the SC P700.

Strong points noted being Printing quality, Separate black ink channels,High resolution, Greater range of colour, Various connection possibilities.

Negative points: Not faster than the SCP600, No profiles for advanced black/white printing. Ink costs.

Their comments about ink costs comparing the different SC printers being.....

Watch out, ink inflation.

The SC-P700 and SC-P900 have the same printing head and the same waste ink maintenance box. The printing quality and setting of the drivers are the same, and the ICC profits provided by Epson are the same. The size of their cartridges corresponds to those of the SC-P800, but their volumes vary. The SC-P800 contain 80 ml. Reduced to 50 ml for the SC-P900 and 25 ml for the SC-P700 compared to 25. 9 ml for the SC-P600. Epson is used to varying the volume of a cartridge, since the initial cartridges delivered with the printer contain a smaller amount of ink than the replacement cartridges. At installation, you only benefit from about 25% of the volume of a normal cartridge.

And the price per millilitre increases with the new models: SC-P800 is €59. 54, SC-P900 is €43. 99, SC-P600 is €29. 42 and SC-P700 is €32. 54 (prices on the Epson France website). Ink costs jump by 15% compared to previous models. And the millilitre of a SC-P700 cartridge costs 50% more than that of an SC-P900. (Since plastic pollutes the planet, it is curious that the cartridges of the two models are not interchangeable, and that the volume goes from 80 ml to 50 ml for the SC-P900. Apparently there is no ink incompatibility between the two printer models. ICC profits are the same. An adaptation of the firmware should resolve this constraint.

The P700 gets the max 5 star award. It is a better printer than the P600/800.

No mention is made of third party inks.

I wonder where all those used cartridges go??

Neither the P700 which I bought 10 days (at Vistek Ottawa) or the two P900 printers that replaced it (in the last seven days) have been able to print to my third party fine art paper (Moab and Canson). Three Epson technicians in Long Beach, California have each told me that the Epson P700 and P900 printers are built and designed to ONLY print on Epson paper. How the printer can differentiate between third party paper brands I do not know. All in all, my experiences with both the P700 and P900 have been extremely discouraging.

Michael Ricco said:

... Three Epson technicians in Long Beach, California have each told me that the Epson P700 and P900 printers are built and designed to ONLY print on Epson paper. ....

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Absolute nonsense. I get great results and have never printed a single sheet of Epson paper on my Epson printer. Every major paper vendor has ICC profiles and settings available which should work flawlessly. That and there is hardly a sliver a difference between many papers from different vendors. Most do not actually make paper but buy it from a small number of major paper mills.

Jim, aka camperjim

Any decent printer, including the P700 and P900, can be configured for different papers. The configuration settings include paper thickness settings for the platens and head elevation, drying time, ink amounts, paper sizes, etc. Selection of different papers will automatically make many of these settings. Similar papers for different suppliers can also use these settings. Specs from the suppliers will tell the user exactly which settings are appropriate for each printer model. Typically the setting is as simple as something like set the printer for "premium semi-gloss".

Color profiling can be a bit more involved. Typically a profile for a semi-gloss or luster paper from different suppliers will be close and interchangeable. That is also true for many matte papers but surfaces are often more variable. In any case the paper supplier will also include ICC profiles for the specific paper and specific printer model. If not available, they can easily be made using a spectrophotometer or colorimeter, or the user can have a custom profile made for roughly $25-40. It is easy to get great results for any photographic paper from any manufacturer.

sirkhann said:

New P700 and P900

These printers use 1.5pl drops vs 4pl in previous models. This requires micro-filtration of the ink to reduce particles size, otherwise that can cause a permanent clog. This means inks, developed fornolder Epsons may not be compatible and are potentially unsafe.

You have been warned.

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Two points:

(1) the difference in size between a 4.0 pl droplet and a 1.5 pl droplet is not that much: if the droplets are spherical, then the 1.5 pl droplet has a diameter 72% that of the 4.0 pl droplet; and

(2) the "previous models" were not 4.0 pl droplet machines, because the P600 could print 2.0 pl droplets (and the P800 could print 3.5 pl droplets).

So from an engineering standpoint, I'm very skeptical that the 1.5 pl minimum droplet size of the P700 and P900 substantially affects which inks will or will not work in them, compared to the P600 and P800.

Perhaps you can tell me the secret to printing on third party paper. Once again today, I could not print to Moab paper. In less than two weeks, I have tried an Epson P700 (returned it after 2 days), a P900 (returned that after 5 days) and now a second P900. I have yet to print consistently on either Moab or Canson 330 paper. Furthermore, this current P900 will not print via the front feeder at all, including to Epson Hot Press Bright 330 paper. As I have told the technicians at Epson, I am prepared to admit and even concede that my printing issues could lie somewhere between my chair and the printer. However, the technicians at Epson will not cast any blame on me, but neither will they help me. Their answer is either to tell me to return the printer or they ask me "what do you want"? My answer to that question is always, "I want to be able to print on the paper of my choice and and without issues" .... Any suggestions you may have will be most appreciated. Thank you.

Michael Ricco said:

Perhaps you can tell me the secret to printing on third party paper. Once again today, I could not print to Moab paper. ......

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I have no idea what you mean by "could not print". Your printer has no idea what brand of paper you are using. If it is set for a similar Epson paper, it will print on another brand. Will the paper feed? You mentioned difficulty in using different feeding pathways. For each paper type, the printer will select a default pathway and regardless of the brand of paper, you can only use that pathway.

What printer program are you using? The printer driver, Lightroom, Photoshop or something else?

What computer are you using? Please don't tell me it is a Mac.

Yes, its a Mac!

Sorry, I don't have a clue. I just know that over the years I have read numerous frustrated complaints about trying to set color profiles and print using a Mac. Worst case I have heard was old printers that were no longer useable because new Apple operating systems would not support them and there was no driver that would work.