R5 Owner's Perspective on Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra

Huntin4photos · Jan 15, 2021

Tony D said:
Two different beasts - one does so much processing when the shot is taken, which you can't control, it gets a 'good' image and the other you have to process it yourself after the shot is taken to get a 'good' image.

Its mind blowing the way phones get such good shots - multiple images, fusing multiple images together using AI to select the best parts from different images etc. I wish photo processing programs could do similar with less work :-D

This is like the raw verses jpg discussions - neither is right each has its own place. If you want to play with the image/create arty personal images yourself, then D-SLR/mirrorless camera (which shots in raw) is the way to go. If you want an image where someone else has decided the processing for you and want a quick result, then go with a phone.

I'm old enough to remember a similar discussions comparing 35mm, 120 format, 220 format (medium format in all its forms). Remember all the film formats aim at the public, which where always smaller than theses (cheaper and never blown up beyond 4x5 or 6x4) - all were tools and had their own place.

PS. Is it me do all phone images look over sharpened (they are) and has this practice now spread to D-SLR/mirrorless images.

With or without those thick lens in your new glasses?

Reminds me of my recent purchase of new glasses. My wife says, can you see that dog?

I said, sure can. He is a mangy one eyed hound headed our way.

She said, return those glasses. That dog aint coming, he is walking away from us.

Cell vs "real gear" is like brain cancer or that old dog. You know the end is coming.

Just don't know exactly when....that it will take away what I love doing as art..

But like the dog, you can't always tell if it is walking towards or away.

Progressing to something better or headed back ass backwards to God knows where?

grenow · Jan 15, 2021

Huntin4photos said:
There was a Sixties song by the Who that had a chorus of I hope I die before I turn 30.

To be exact: "I hope I die before I get old" - My Generation, The Who, 1965

Huntin4photos said:
Then ten years later, it became 40.
Then later 50 and then later 6o.

Definitions of what old actually is depend somewhat on the age of the person defining it. Pete Townshend is now 75, Roger Daltrey 76, and Keith Moon and John Entwistle both dead.

And my smartphone is quite happy to stream that song to me anytime, anywhere... ;-)

To get back on topic: the way I justify upgrading my iPhone every two years is as a point and shoot camera that I always have with me. Hasn't stopped me buying an R6 though...

rrc1967 · Jan 16, 2021

JasonTheBirder said:
rlaplaca said:

I know that this subject has been beat to death, but the vast majority of people will never need an R series or other mirrorless or DSLR camera and I am reluctant, but depressed, to say that I can only see the continued death spiral of the traditional camera industry.

Click to expand...

I never understood why so many people assume a shrinking market is a dying one. There are plenty of examples of shrinking markets that stabilize and remain healthy albeit smaller and there are also plenty of examples where a market dies completely.

To me it seems obvious that a phone will never replace dedicated cameras for certain applications. Thus it seems much more likely that the camera market will stabilize at some point and mainly higher-end cameras will remain.

agreed - the ILC market wasn't that big film days. and the industry was pretty robust.

rrc1967 · Jan 16, 2021

grenow said:
Huntin4photos said:

There was a Sixties song by the Who that had a chorus of I hope I die before I turn 30.

Click to expand...

To be exact: "I hope I die before I get old" - My Generation, The Who, 1965

grenow said:

Then ten years later, it became 40.
Then later 50 and then later 6o.

Click to expand...

Definitions of what old actually is depend somewhat on the age of the person defining it. Pete Townshend is now 75, Roger Daltrey 76, and Keith Moon and John Entwistle both dead.

And my smartphone is quite happy to stream that song to me anytime, anywhere... ;-)

To get back on topic: the way I justify upgrading my iPhone every two years is as a point and shoot camera that I always have with me. Hasn't stopped me buying an R6 though...

I think this is really it. I upgrade my phone as my compact camera, but it doens't replace a serious camera.

computational photography only goes so far, and most computational tricks I can do on my ILC's - just with photoshop.

Dlee13 · Jan 16, 2021

I haven’t used a Samsung phone for a few years now but I know when it comes to my iPhone XS Max, I barely use the camera for any actual photos. From time to time I’ll mess around with it and shoot in DNG using LR Mobile but it actually ends up worse than shooting JPEG. The main advantages a phone has is all computational so when you shoot DNG, the files fall apart so easily.

The main thing I’d love for is to see an ILC Camera manufacturer actually work computational effects into their JPEGS. This means for someone who wants to actual have control over their images they can use RAW as usual. But for someone who just wants good looking JPEGS with better the advantages of an ILC like low light performance, they have the camera still.

KEG · Jan 16, 2021

2014 era tiny sensor CR2 vs Pro RAW DNG

--
KEG

Huntin4photos · Jan 16, 2021

rrc1967 said:
grenow said:

Huntin4photos said:

There was a Sixties song by the Who that had a chorus of I hope I die before I turn 30.

Click to expand...

To be exact: "I hope I die before I get old" - My Generation, The Who, 1965

rrc1967 said:

Then ten years later, it became 40.
Then later 50 and then later 6o.

Click to expand...

Definitions of what old actually is depend somewhat on the age of the person defining it. Pete Townshend is now 75, Roger Daltrey 76, and Keith Moon and John Entwistle both dead.

And my smartphone is quite happy to stream that song to me anytime, anywhere... ;-)

To get back on topic: the way I justify upgrading my iPhone every two years is as a point and shoot camera that I always have with me. Hasn't stopped me buying an R6 though...

Click to expand...

I think this is really it. I upgrade my phone as my compact camera, but it doens't replace a serious camera.

computational photography only goes so far, and most computational tricks I can do on my ILC's - just with photoshop.

What is makes any of you think either cell phone camera, DSLR or anything with a lens has any long term future? It aint that good YET but

OpenAI's new DALL-E AI program generates images of anything with fascinating success: Digital Photography Review
https://m.dpreview.com/news/9173310...s-images-of-anything-with-fascinating-success

More yuk from me

But when I told my wife about your exact phrase of "old" and not "th, ta, ere tt,tar tired, tee" [trying to imitate that stuttering in the song], she says i am right and you are wrong.

They changed or dropped it cause they were getting
older than 30 plus Keith Moon got his wish when he died before the age of thirty.

We got that old record when he clearly stutters out 30.

She starts looking on the internet and can't find anything about the change.

Her: Must be very rare, worth big bucks. We got to find it...

Me: well, err ...

She: We got a bunch of old records in those milk carton containers, where are they? storage unit?

Me: well ere oh...

Her: Must be in there

Me: well I think..err...that garage sale about 25 years ago, before we bought this house and were moving, we sold all that..along with all those laser discs...and.....

Well anyway the Doc says I should be able to walk in a few days, but I do remember as she does remember 30. The rest was my hyerbole, made for effect.

But nowadays I am glad to get up and remember....now what was I trying to remember...oh yeah my name....what is my name anyway.

RDM5546 · Jan 16, 2021

rrc1967 said:
JasonTheBirder said:

rlaplaca said:

I know that this subject has been beat to death, but the vast majority of people will never need an R series or other mirrorless or DSLR camera and I am reluctant, but depressed, to say that I can only see the continued death spiral of the traditional camera industry.

Click to expand...

I never understood why so many people assume a shrinking market is a dying one. There are plenty of examples of shrinking markets that stabilize and remain healthy albeit smaller and there are also plenty of examples where a market dies completely.

To me it seems obvious that a phone will never replace dedicated cameras for certain applications. Thus it seems much more likely that the camera market will stabilize at some point and mainly higher-end cameras will remain.

Click to expand...

agreed - the ILC market wasn't that big film days. and the industry was pretty robust.

During the days film cameras (1950's & 1960's only 20% of U.S. Households had cameras and took pictures according to Kodak. Birthdays of children were the common photographic even. Film was not free and cost money. Many did not buy cameras because using film was frustrating because not photographed events ended up with usable pictures. Under and overexposure was common as well as out focus shots. All this frustration and money spent resulted in a limited market.

Cellphones existed for around a decade or so in the 1990's before cameras . Cameras were put in cellphones just after the turn of the century, 2001-2003. At this time more people had phones than had cameras so the number of households having cameras rapidly increased. Today, in 2021, well over 90% of households in the U.S. have cellphones and cameras in those cell phones. Along with the rapid increase in ownership of cameras by ordinary people the number of uses of images and pictures rapidly increased with reduction in cost, size, weight and ease of use of the cellphone based cameras. Pictures became more popular on the internet while digital social networking blossomed.

The demand for pictures increased to share with others through digital network. Initially the demand for pictures, photographers and for point and shoot cameras grew rapidly from 2000 to 2010 driven by internet sharing and improved digital camera designs.

During this inita 2000-2010l phase of image use expansion the pictures made by cellphones were of poor quality and demand was high for better quality images. During the most recent 10 years the cellphones camera improves has increased in a major way decreasing the annual fraction of images made in the U.S. by professional photographer. More and more images were made by cellphone and the sales of point & shoot cameras has subsided cutting the monetary value of the dedicated cameras in half as the sales of simple digital point and shoot cameras subsided.

The new digital technologies applied to cellphone cameras took away demand for dedicated cameras to take the images that the very same digital technologies had created a large demand for.

It is not clear where the size of the market for dedicated cameras will slide to in the future but it is very likely that in next decade continue on to fill the needs of people not satlisfied by the current cellphones. Most likely, IMO, the market will remain at about the same level for high quality cameras for advanced individual and professional photographers with the new uses for image content expand and the new consumer cellphones improves. The high quality cameras will make better images as needs for them increase due to better displays, and faster networks. More rapid growth in video content than stills is also possible according to current trends where every camera device can easily do both. Quality, cost and value will continue to be traded off for different solutions in the marketplace. Hopefully, the greater increase in imagery will promote more human to human communication and sharing of feelings.

rrc1967 · Jan 16, 2021

Huntin4photos said:
rrc1967 said:

grenow said:

Huntin4photos said:

There was a Sixties song by the Who that had a chorus of I hope I die before I turn 30.

Click to expand...

To be exact: "I hope I die before I get old" - My Generation, The Who, 1965

Huntin4photos said:

Then ten years later, it became 40.
Then later 50 and then later 6o.

Click to expand...

Definitions of what old actually is depend somewhat on the age of the person defining it. Pete Townshend is now 75, Roger Daltrey 76, and Keith Moon and John Entwistle both dead.

And my smartphone is quite happy to stream that song to me anytime, anywhere... ;-)

To get back on topic: the way I justify upgrading my iPhone every two years is as a point and shoot camera that I always have with me. Hasn't stopped me buying an R6 though...

Click to expand...

I think this is really it. I upgrade my phone as my compact camera, but it doens't replace a serious camera.

computational photography only goes so far, and most computational tricks I can do on my ILC's - just with photoshop.

Click to expand...

What is makes any of you think either cell phone camera, DSLR or anything with a lens has any long term future?

did you have a point in there?

most computational photography "tricks" can be done using ILC's. I can take a burst of 16-20 images and combine them, to increase dynamic range, reduce noise, and even to increase resolution.

A lot of people are going to be disappointed in their smartphones when they have 8K tv's and see their pictures.

The popularity of smartphone photography is driven by social media, once you get out of that envelope, it really doesn't do well.

rrc1967 · Jan 16, 2021

RDM5546 said:
rrc1967 said:

JasonTheBirder said:

rlaplaca said:

I know that this subject has been beat to death, but the vast majority of people will never need an R series or other mirrorless or DSLR camera and I am reluctant, but depressed, to say that I can only see the continued death spiral of the traditional camera industry.

Click to expand...

I never understood why so many people assume a shrinking market is a dying one. There are plenty of examples of shrinking markets that stabilize and remain healthy albeit smaller and there are also plenty of examples where a market dies completely.

To me it seems obvious that a phone will never replace dedicated cameras for certain applications. Thus it seems much more likely that the camera market will stabilize at some point and mainly higher-end cameras will remain.

Click to expand...

agreed - the ILC market wasn't that big film days. and the industry was pretty robust.

Click to expand...

During the days film cameras (1950's & 1960's only 20% of U.S. Households had cameras and took pictures according to Kodak.

Film went into the 90's. Compact film cameras, disposable film cameras were readily available. You could walk into Walmart, get a camera with ISO 400, drop it off, and get the prints later in the mail.

granted it was more expensive, but there was still the convenience aspect versus ILC's that we are seeing today.

Just like back then, no one printed those images past 4x6 either. You want to medium format if you wanted to print large.

the point is, the number of ILC's that old during the 90's wasn't a huge number, and yet the camera manufacturers survived - and that was with them giving a share of the profits to kodak for each shot taken.

also the emerging screen sizes such as 8K and beyond, each time the resolution jumps it will be harder for smartphones to compete with that.

MikeJ9116 · Jan 16, 2021

rrc1967 said:
JasonTheBirder said:

rlaplaca said:

I know that this subject has been beat to death, but the vast majority of people will never need an R series or other mirrorless or DSLR camera and I am reluctant, but depressed, to say that I can only see the continued death spiral of the traditional camera industry.

Click to expand...

I never understood why so many people assume a shrinking market is a dying one. There are plenty of examples of shrinking markets that stabilize and remain healthy albeit smaller and there are also plenty of examples where a market dies completely.

To me it seems obvious that a phone will never replace dedicated cameras for certain applications. Thus it seems much more likely that the camera market will stabilize at some point and mainly higher-end cameras will remain.

Click to expand...

agreed - the ILC market wasn't that big film days. and the industry was pretty robust.

The advantage the film cameras had was no competition from a completely different marks segment like digital has today. It is the equivalent as if film cameras were competing against wallets and purses having a small Instamatic or Polaroid camera built into them. Smartphones are now as common as wallets and purses.

Huntin4photos · Jan 16, 2021

rrc1967 said:
Huntin4photos said:

rrc1967 said:

grenow said:

Huntin4photos said:

There was a Sixties song by the Who that had a chorus of I hope I die before I turn 30.

Click to expand...

To be exact: "I hope I die before I get old" - My Generation, The Who, 1965

rrc1967 said:

Then ten years later, it became 40.
Then later 50 and then later 6o.

Click to expand...

Definitions of what old actually is depend somewhat on the age of the person defining it. Pete Townshend is now 75, Roger Daltrey 76, and Keith Moon and John Entwistle both dead.

And my smartphone is quite happy to stream that song to me anytime, anywhere... ;-)

To get back on topic: the way I justify upgrading my iPhone every two years is as a point and shoot camera that I always have with me. Hasn't stopped me buying an R6 though...

Click to expand...

I think this is really it. I upgrade my phone as my compact camera, but it doens't replace a serious camera.

computational photography only goes so far, and most computational tricks I can do on my ILC's - just with photoshop.

Click to expand...

What is makes any of you think either cell phone camera, DSLR or anything with a lens has any long term future?

Click to expand...

did you have a point in there?

most computational photography "tricks" can be done using ILC's. I can take a burst of 16-20 images and combine them, to increase dynamic range, reduce noise, and even to increase resolution.

A lot of people are going to be disappointed in their smartphones when they have 8K tv's and see their pictures.

The popularity of smartphone photography is driven by social media, once you get out of that envelope, it really doesn't do well.

My point was and is that a piece of glass and sensor will no longer be necessary given the direction that this software represents merely a first step in that direction.

How much is longer? A few years ago I would have said sometime in 2150.

Then this article comes along and now i say 10 years, 20, 30 or more perhaps.

I have no idea when, but is coming.

I don't like it for many reasons.

But if you have not read the article in detail from Dpreview, suggest you and others should.

MikeJ9116 · Jan 16, 2021

rrc1967 said:
Huntin4photos said:

rrc1967 said:

grenow said:

Huntin4photos said:

There was a Sixties song by the Who that had a chorus of I hope I die before I turn 30.

Click to expand...

To be exact: "I hope I die before I get old" - My Generation, The Who, 1965

rrc1967 said:

Then ten years later, it became 40.
Then later 50 and then later 6o.

Click to expand...

Definitions of what old actually is depend somewhat on the age of the person defining it. Pete Townshend is now 75, Roger Daltrey 76, and Keith Moon and John Entwistle both dead.

And my smartphone is quite happy to stream that song to me anytime, anywhere... ;-)

To get back on topic: the way I justify upgrading my iPhone every two years is as a point and shoot camera that I always have with me. Hasn't stopped me buying an R6 though...

Click to expand...

I think this is really it. I upgrade my phone as my compact camera, but it doens't replace a serious camera.

computational photography only goes so far, and most computational tricks I can do on my ILC's - just with photoshop.

Click to expand...

What is makes any of you think either cell phone camera, DSLR or anything with a lens has any long term future?

Click to expand...

did you have a point in there?

most computational photography "tricks" can be done using ILC's. I can take a burst of 16-20 images and combine them, to increase dynamic range, reduce noise, and even to increase resolution.

A lot of people are going to be disappointed in their smartphones when they have 8K tv's and see their pictures.

If this is a major issue count on smartphone makers to address it. High resolution sensor are coming to more smartphones as time passes. One thing I admire about smartphone makers is they are very in tune with what their users desire and they make adjustments very quickly to accommodate them. I think most people are fine viewing old photos taken with the resolution norms of the time. I look at photos I took with a Kodak digital camera in the late 1990s and am not disappointed in the resolution. Even though I could have gotten far better resolution shooting film and scanning the photos to digital format.

rrc1967 said:
The popularity of smartphone photography is driven by social media, once you get out of that envelope, it really doesn't do well.

The popularity of 99% of all imaging is driven by social media and online sharing. This includes ILCs. What percentage of people enjoy photos via large prints (which it where high resolution really means anything)? I would say a very small fraction of one percent.

rrc1967 · Jan 16, 2021

Huntin4photos said:
rrc1967 said:

Huntin4photos said:

rrc1967 said:

grenow said:

Huntin4photos said:

There was a Sixties song by the Who that had a chorus of I hope I die before I turn 30.

Click to expand...

To be exact: "I hope I die before I get old" - My Generation, The Who, 1965

Huntin4photos said:

Then ten years later, it became 40.
Then later 50 and then later 6o.

Click to expand...

Definitions of what old actually is depend somewhat on the age of the person defining it. Pete Townshend is now 75, Roger Daltrey 76, and Keith Moon and John Entwistle both dead.

And my smartphone is quite happy to stream that song to me anytime, anywhere... ;-)

To get back on topic: the way I justify upgrading my iPhone every two years is as a point and shoot camera that I always have with me. Hasn't stopped me buying an R6 though...

Click to expand...

I think this is really it. I upgrade my phone as my compact camera, but it doens't replace a serious camera.

computational photography only goes so far, and most computational tricks I can do on my ILC's - just with photoshop.

Click to expand...

What is makes any of you think either cell phone camera, DSLR or anything with a lens has any long term future?

Click to expand...

did you have a point in there?

most computational photography "tricks" can be done using ILC's. I can take a burst of 16-20 images and combine them, to increase dynamic range, reduce noise, and even to increase resolution.

A lot of people are going to be disappointed in their smartphones when they have 8K tv's and see their pictures.

The popularity of smartphone photography is driven by social media, once you get out of that envelope, it really doesn't do well.

Click to expand...

My point was and is that a piece of glass and sensor will no longer be necessary given the direction that this software represents merely a first step in that direction.

How much is longer? A few years ago I would have said sometime in 2150.

Then this article comes along and now i say 10 years, 20, 30 or more perhaps.

I have no idea when, but is coming.

I don't like it for many reasons.

But if you have not read the article in detail from Dpreview, suggest you and others should.

okay.. but that still won't take images of current events, etc.

someone still has to take those. that AI really doesn't do much for that.

I mean it's a cool trick but so what?

I can see this being useful for game design, etc .. but someone still has to take the images for AI, and the world is continually changing.

also what's the purpose of photography? to stop time and record an event.

whether it be your dinner, where you are, what you are doing, or where you are.

this AI won't change that.

MikeJ9116 · Jan 16, 2021

Huntin4photos said:
rrc1967 said:

Huntin4photos said:

rrc1967 said:

grenow said:

Huntin4photos said:

There was a Sixties song by the Who that had a chorus of I hope I die before I turn 30.

Click to expand...

To be exact: "I hope I die before I get old" - My Generation, The Who, 1965

Huntin4photos said:

Then ten years later, it became 40.
Then later 50 and then later 6o.

Click to expand...

Definitions of what old actually is depend somewhat on the age of the person defining it. Pete Townshend is now 75, Roger Daltrey 76, and Keith Moon and John Entwistle both dead.

And my smartphone is quite happy to stream that song to me anytime, anywhere... ;-)

To get back on topic: the way I justify upgrading my iPhone every two years is as a point and shoot camera that I always have with me. Hasn't stopped me buying an R6 though...

Click to expand...

I think this is really it. I upgrade my phone as my compact camera, but it doens't replace a serious camera.

computational photography only goes so far, and most computational tricks I can do on my ILC's - just with photoshop.

Click to expand...

What is makes any of you think either cell phone camera, DSLR or anything with a lens has any long term future?

Click to expand...

did you have a point in there?

most computational photography "tricks" can be done using ILC's. I can take a burst of 16-20 images and combine them, to increase dynamic range, reduce noise, and even to increase resolution.

A lot of people are going to be disappointed in their smartphones when they have 8K tv's and see their pictures.

The popularity of smartphone photography is driven by social media, once you get out of that envelope, it really doesn't do well.

Click to expand...

My point was and is that a piece of glass and sensor will no longer be necessary given the direction that this software represents merely a first step in that direction.

How much is longer? A few years ago I would have said sometime in 2150.

Then this article comes along and now i say 10 years, 20, 30 or more perhaps.

I have no idea when, but is coming.

I don't like it for many reasons.

But if you have not read the article in detail from Dpreview, suggest you and others should.

A massive change in camera capability and form would happen if current liquid lens technology gets perfected. Imagine a lens made of liquid instead of glass whose shape can be infinitely manipulated using electrical currents. It would nullify current lens technology in a very short time frame.

RDM5546 · Jan 16, 2021

MikeJ9116 said:
Huntin4photos said:

rrc1967 said:

Huntin4photos said:

rrc1967 said:

grenow said:

Huntin4photos said:

There was a Sixties song by the Who that had a chorus of I hope I die before I turn 30.

Click to expand...

To be exact: "I hope I die before I get old" - My Generation, The Who, 1965

MikeJ9116 said:

Then ten years later, it became 40.
Then later 50 and then later 6o.

Click to expand...

Definitions of what old actually is depend somewhat on the age of the person defining it. Pete Townshend is now 75, Roger Daltrey 76, and Keith Moon and John Entwistle both dead.

And my smartphone is quite happy to stream that song to me anytime, anywhere... ;-)

To get back on topic: the way I justify upgrading my iPhone every two years is as a point and shoot camera that I always have with me. Hasn't stopped me buying an R6 though...

Click to expand...

I think this is really it. I upgrade my phone as my compact camera, but it doens't replace a serious camera.

computational photography only goes so far, and most computational tricks I can do on my ILC's - just with photoshop.

Click to expand...

What is makes any of you think either cell phone camera, DSLR or anything with a lens has any long term future?

Click to expand...

did you have a point in there?

most computational photography "tricks" can be done using ILC's. I can take a burst of 16-20 images and combine them, to increase dynamic range, reduce noise, and even to increase resolution.

A lot of people are going to be disappointed in their smartphones when they have 8K tv's and see their pictures.

The popularity of smartphone photography is driven by social media, once you get out of that envelope, it really doesn't do well.

Click to expand...

My point was and is that a piece of glass and sensor will no longer be necessary given the direction that this software represents merely a first step in that direction.

How much is longer? A few years ago I would have said sometime in 2150.

Then this article comes along and now i say 10 years, 20, 30 or more perhaps.

I have no idea when, but is coming.

I don't like it for many reasons.

But if you have not read the article in detail from Dpreview, suggest you and others should.

Click to expand...

A massive change in camera capability and form would happen if current liquid lens technology gets perfected. Imagine a lens made of liquid instead of glass whose shape can be infinitely manipulated using electrical currents. It would nullify current lens technology in a very short time frame.

I could as easily image a cow jumping over the moon. Imaging does not make it consistent with the laws of physics, but dreaming is a good starting point of invention though not necessarily the end point. Oil may not make the best lenses as some optical properties fluctuate vary over 300% in the visible light range. That may be ok but something else may be better.

Thomas A Anderson · Jan 16, 2021

JasonTheBirder said:
rlaplaca said:

I know that this subject has been beat to death, but the vast majority of people will never need an R series or other mirrorless or DSLR camera and I am reluctant, but depressed, to say that I can only see the continued death spiral of the traditional camera industry.

Click to expand...

I never understood why so many people assume a shrinking market is a dying one.

Irrational thinking in one aspect of life tends to indicate a thinking process that is compromised in general. In this case, someone has fallen victim to a false extrapolation: the assumption is that a trend is strictly linear and will have the same behavior no matter the circumstances into the future. That means a downward trend will inevitably end at zero. Likewise, the trend of phone cameras improving means they must continue like that forever....and at the same time if you assume ILC tech somehow will remain static forever then phone cameras will eclipse ILC usability and quality eventually. It’s a strange mix of assumptions, fallacious logic, and magical thinking.

Member said:
There are plenty of examples of shrinking markets that stabilize and remain healthy albeit smaller and there are also plenty of examples where a market dies completely.

I’d have to think about that. I mean, 8 tracks are no longer manufactured, but records are raging back. I suppose a few markets die... but sometimes they just ebb and flow.

Member said:
To me it seems obvious that a phone will never replace dedicated cameras for certain applications. Thus it seems much more likely that the camera market will stabilize at some point and mainly higher-end cameras will remain.

Yeah. The digital camera craze was a bit of an aberration. Companies like Canon were not really software and tech companies, and I think that’s why they knew this decline was inevitable. They were measured in their responses because they knew they were in the long game. That’s why the repetitive comparisons to Kodak always made me laugh — totally different strategies don’t in any way imply the same outcome.

grenow · Jan 16, 2021

Huntin4photos said:
But when I told my wife about your exact phrase of "old" and not "th, ta, ere tt,tar tired, tee" [trying to imitate that stuttering in the song], she says i am right and you are wrong.

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest..."

The Boxer, Simon & Garfunkel, 1969

Huntin4photos said:
Well anyway the Doc says I should be able to walk in a few days, but I do remember as she does remember 30. The rest was my hyerbole, made for effect.

Actual LOLs.

Huntin4photos said:
But nowadays I am glad to get up and remember....now what was I trying to remember...oh yeah my name....what is my name anyway.

If I Could Only Remember My Name - David Crosby, 1971. Great album...

RDM5546 · Jan 16, 2021

Thomas A Anderson said:
JasonTheBirder said:

rlaplaca said:

I know that this subject has been beat to death, but the vast majority of people will never need an R series or other mirrorless or DSLR camera and I am reluctant, but depressed, to say that I can only see the continued death spiral of the traditional camera industry.

Click to expand...

I never understood why so many people assume a shrinking market is a dying one.

Click to expand...

Irrational thinking in one aspect of life tends to indicate a thinking process that is compromised in general. In this case, someone has fallen victim to a false extrapolation: the assumption is that a trend is strictly linear and will have the same behavior no matter the circumstances into the future. That means a downward trend will inevitably end at zero. Likewise, the trend of phone cameras improving means they must continue like that forever....and at the same time if you assume ILC tech somehow will remain static forever then phone cameras will eclipse ILC usability and quality eventually. It’s a strange mix of assumptions, fallacious logic, and magical thinking.

Thomas A Anderson said:

There are plenty of examples of shrinking markets that stabilize and remain healthy albeit smaller and there are also plenty of examples where a market dies completely.

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I’d have to think about that. I mean, 8 tracks are no longer manufactured, but records are raging back. I suppose a few markets die... but sometimes they just ebb and flow.

Thomas A Anderson said:

To me it seems obvious that a phone will never replace dedicated cameras for certain applications. Thus it seems much more likely that the camera market will stabilize at some point and mainly higher-end cameras will remain.

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Yeah. The digital camera craze was a bit of an aberration. Companies like Canon were not really software and tech companies, and I think that’s why they knew this decline was inevitable. They were measured in their responses because they knew they were in the long game. That’s why the repetitive comparisons to Kodak always made me laugh — totally different strategies don’t in any way imply the same outcome.

MikeJ9116 · Jan 16, 2021

RDM5546 said:
MikeJ9116 said:

Huntin4photos said:

rrc1967 said:

Huntin4photos said:

rrc1967 said:

grenow said:

Huntin4photos said:

There was a Sixties song by the Who that had a chorus of I hope I die before I turn 30.

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To be exact: "I hope I die before I get old" - My Generation, The Who, 1965

RDM5546 said:

Then ten years later, it became 40.
Then later 50 and then later 6o.

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Definitions of what old actually is depend somewhat on the age of the person defining it. Pete Townshend is now 75, Roger Daltrey 76, and Keith Moon and John Entwistle both dead.

And my smartphone is quite happy to stream that song to me anytime, anywhere... ;-)

To get back on topic: the way I justify upgrading my iPhone every two years is as a point and shoot camera that I always have with me. Hasn't stopped me buying an R6 though...

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I think this is really it. I upgrade my phone as my compact camera, but it doens't replace a serious camera.

computational photography only goes so far, and most computational tricks I can do on my ILC's - just with photoshop.

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What is makes any of you think either cell phone camera, DSLR or anything with a lens has any long term future?

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did you have a point in there?

most computational photography "tricks" can be done using ILC's. I can take a burst of 16-20 images and combine them, to increase dynamic range, reduce noise, and even to increase resolution.

A lot of people are going to be disappointed in their smartphones when they have 8K tv's and see their pictures.

The popularity of smartphone photography is driven by social media, once you get out of that envelope, it really doesn't do well.

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My point was and is that a piece of glass and sensor will no longer be necessary given the direction that this software represents merely a first step in that direction.

How much is longer? A few years ago I would have said sometime in 2150.

Then this article comes along and now i say 10 years, 20, 30 or more perhaps.

I have no idea when, but is coming.

I don't like it for many reasons.

But if you have not read the article in detail from Dpreview, suggest you and others should.

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A massive change in camera capability and form would happen if current liquid lens technology gets perfected. Imagine a lens made of liquid instead of glass whose shape can be infinitely manipulated using electrical currents. It would nullify current lens technology in a very short time frame.

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I could as easily image a cow jumping over the moon. Imaging does not make it consistent with the laws of physics, but dreaming is a good starting point of invention though not necessarily the end point. Oil may not make the best lenses as some optical properties fluctuate vary over 300% in the visible light range. That may be ok but something else may be better.

You are being a little over the top. The technology already exists in some form. Like most current mainstream technology, all it takes is advancement to become mainstream. Most of the current technology we use now was seen as wizardry and magic not long ago. These days technological advancement is occurring much faster than in the past so don't discount any technology that currently has working prototypes as DOA.

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