e Why pussyfoot around just go for a FF PEN F

Because it would be huge, heavy and have gigantic lenses. The Fuji X-Pro is bad enough and it is only an APS size sensor. Moreover, it would have the miserable 3:2 aspect ratio sensor that requires cropping for almost every popular print size.

Finally, it already exists. It is called a Leica M9. Sony makes one too.

Now, if you took the old film Pen-F body and just put a half frame sensor in it I would buy that in a heart beat!

Tedolph
 
I don't see that adding FF to the PEN-F brings anything but larger lenses and direct competion with the Sony A7C.

However, adding a substantial grip to the PEN-F would add enough top real estate to allow moving the front dial to the top, make it easier to hold long lenses, and provide room for a larger battery.

Now add a a tilt screen and BSI (M43) sensor, and I think there would be a competitve product.
 
Because it would be huge, heavy and have gigantic lenses. The Fuji X-Pro is bad enough and it is only an APS size sensor. Moreover, it would have the miserable 3:2 aspect ratio sensor that requires cropping for almost every popular print size.
It would either have to sacrifice size or develop smaller internal components to make room for a larger sensor to maintain the same feature set. Maybe they could cram in an apsc sized sensor to into the existing penf body. If it doesn't use an existing mount though, we would have to wait for lenses :(
Finally, it already exists. It is called a Leica M9. Sony makes one too.
As was pointed out to me the leica's are more true rangefinders. But I agree, if want a full frame pen f just save your cash for leica. You get an actual rangefinder with modern digital benefits.
Now, if you took the old film Pen-F body and just put a half frame sensor in it I would buy that in a heart beat!

Tedolph
The cool thing about the film Pen F was that it was an slr in a rangefinder format.
 
I don't see that adding FF to the PEN-F brings anything but larger lenses and direct competion with the Sony A7C.

However, adding a substantial grip to the PEN-F would add enough top real estate to allow moving the front dial to the top, make it easier to hold long lenses, and provide room for a larger battery.
I find that the "smaller" battery in my E-M5 III gets way better battery life than that old tech battery in my Pen F.
Now add a a tilt screen and BSI (M43) sensor, and I think there would be a competitve product.
 
I don't see that adding FF to the PEN-F brings anything but larger lenses and direct competion with the Sony A7C.

However, adding a substantial grip to the PEN-F would add enough top real estate to allow moving the front dial to the top, make it easier to hold long lenses, and provide room for a larger battery.
I find that the "smaller" battery in my E-M5 III gets way better battery life than that old tech battery in my Pen F.
I think there was some talk that they made the em5 mkiii more power efficient. I don't know if thats true or just marketing.
Now add a a tilt screen and BSI (M43) sensor, and I think there would be a competitve product.
 
I don't see that adding FF to the PEN-F brings anything but larger lenses and direct competion with the Sony A7C.

However, adding a substantial grip to the PEN-F would add enough top real estate to allow moving the front dial to the top, make it easier to hold long lenses, and provide room for a larger battery.
I find that the "smaller" battery in my E-M5 III gets way better battery life than that old tech battery in my Pen F.
I think there was some talk that they made the em5 mkiii more power efficient. I don't know if thats true or just marketing.
Now add a a tilt screen and BSI (M43) sensor, and I think there would be a competitve product.
Maybe so...but I've had the older battery in the PEN F, E-5 M II, and the E-M1. The smaller battery in my E-M5 III, E-M10 III, E-M10 II and the PEN PL7, easily outlasted any of the others.

For me simply put the innards from the E-M5 III, plus an expanded JPEG engine from the Pen F and an OLED EVF and I'm in.
 
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I don't see that adding FF to the PEN-F brings anything but larger lenses and direct competion with the Sony A7C.

However, adding a substantial grip to the PEN-F would add enough top real estate to allow moving the front dial to the top, make it easier to hold long lenses, and provide room for a larger battery.

Now add a a tilt screen and BSI (M43) sensor, and I think there would be a competitve product.
 
I don't see that adding FF to the PEN-F brings anything but larger lenses and direct competion with the Sony A7C.

However, adding a substantial grip to the PEN-F would add enough top real estate to allow moving the front dial to the top, make it easier to hold long lenses, and provide room for a larger battery.
I find that the "smaller" battery in my E-M5 III gets way better battery life than that old tech battery in my Pen F.
I think there was some talk that they made the em5 mkiii more power efficient. I don't know if thats true or just marketing.
Now add a a tilt screen and BSI (M43) sensor, and I think there would be a competitve product.
Maybe so...but I've had the older battery in the PEN F, E-5 M II, and the E-M1. The smaller battery in my E-M5 III, E-M10 III, E-M10 II and the PEN PL7, easily outlasted any of the others.

For me simply put the innards from the E-M5 III, plus an expanded JPEG engine from the Pen F and an OLED EVF and I'm in.
Its a balance between the battery's storage capacity and the camera's power consumption.

Improving the power stored per unit volume requires changing the battery chemistry. The E-M5mkIII battery is the same used for E-PL7 and Stylus 1. Its unlikely they changed any part of that.

Its more likely that the EM5-III is more power efficient than its predecessors, which they would need to do anyway to put the camera into a smaller plastic body, with its smaller and less efficient radiating surface.

This is achievable by using ICs with smaller line widths, and by choosing more efficient power conversion circuits.
 
Maybe so...but I've had the older battery in the PEN F, E-5 M II, and the E-M1. The smaller battery in my E-M5 III, E-M10 III, E-M10 II and the PEN PL7, easily outlasted any of the others.

For me simply put the innards from the E-M5 III, plus an expanded JPEG engine from the Pen F and an OLED EVF and I'm in.
CIPA ratings are almost on par: 310 shots for the M5iii and 330 for Pen F. IIUC the M5iii battery capacity is lower so some efficiency improvements with the M5iii seem to have occurred, especially given the much bigger feature set. As electronic components continue to be miniaturized that seems likely.

Cheers,

Rick
 
Maybe so...but I've had the older battery in the PEN F, E-5 M II, and the E-M1. The smaller battery in my E-M5 III, E-M10 III, E-M10 II and the PEN PL7, easily outlasted any of the others.

For me simply put the innards from the E-M5 III, plus an expanded JPEG engine from the Pen F and an OLED EVF and I'm in.
CIPA ratings are almost on par: 310 shots for the M5iii and 330 for Pen F. IIUC the M5iii battery capacity is lower so some efficiency improvements with the M5iii seem to have occurred, especially given the much bigger feature set. As electronic components continue to be miniaturized that seems likely.

Cheers,

Rick
Good comment.

As chip manufacturers decrease line widths, power consumption drops. Power consumption is mostly determined by toggling rate x gate output capacitance x operating voltage. (the gate output capacitance has to charged to hi voltage or discharged to lo voltage on every toggle).

As line width drops, operating voltage drops, drain capacitance drops and power consumption drops.
 
We all know that a full frame Pen F will not happen, even the crazy hare knows it he is just stirring up ideas .

There have only been two digital rangefinder makers one is Leica and the other is the defunct Epson RD1.

Sony and Fuji make cameras the look like a rangefinder as that is where they draw their inspiration and cater for those that want auto focusing and not having to shoot manual all the time as it is the case with rangefinders.

The greatest asset of the Pen F is it’s jpeg engine. I know many hate it as they are raw shooters but they don’t need to buy one as there are plenty of cameras that cater for their needs.

The Pen F is not a big seller but rates high on the I want list due to it’s nostalgic appearance but there are those that use the jpeg dial to their advantage and exploit all the possibilities. For that group a full frame Pen F would give them those extra low light and shallower DOF capabilities.

As for the dial there are designers capable of solving that problem, I am out a camera designer so it is out of my league

There is merit to the idea but only to those that are interested, people that hate the idea well why post you have plenty of other cameras to look at.
 
Maybe so...but I've had the older battery in the PEN F, E-5 M II, and the E-M1. The smaller battery in my E-M5 III, E-M10 III, E-M10 II and the PEN PL7, easily outlasted any of the others.

For me simply put the innards from the E-M5 III, plus an expanded JPEG engine from the Pen F and an OLED EVF and I'm in.
CIPA ratings are almost on par: 310 shots for the M5iii and 330 for Pen F. IIUC the M5iii battery capacity is lower so some efficiency improvements with the M5iii seem to have occurred, especially given the much bigger feature set. As electronic components continue to be miniaturized that seems likely.

Cheers,

Rick
Good comment.

As chip manufacturers decrease line widths, power consumption drops. Power consumption is mostly determined by toggling rate x gate output capacitance x operating voltage. (the gate output capacitance has to charged to hi voltage or discharged to lo voltage on every toggle).

As line width drops, operating voltage drops, drain capacitance drops and power consumption drops.
My point was meant to be that any new Pen F need not accommodate a larger battery. Perhaps the efficiencies in newer technology is enough to realize enough battery life gain to negate the need for a larger battery.

I’m also dubious about the validity of CIPA shot count comparisons as I think they have become pretty much irrelevant in the Mirrorless world.
 
Maybe so...but I've had the older battery in the PEN F, E-5 M II, and the E-M1. The smaller battery in my E-M5 III, E-M10 III, E-M10 II and the PEN PL7, easily outlasted any of the others.

For me simply put the innards from the E-M5 III, plus an expanded JPEG engine from the Pen F and an OLED EVF and I'm in.
CIPA ratings are almost on par: 310 shots for the M5iii and 330 for Pen F. IIUC the M5iii battery capacity is lower so some efficiency improvements with the M5iii seem to have occurred, especially given the much bigger feature set. As electronic components continue to be miniaturized that seems likely.

Cheers,

Rick
Good comment.

As chip manufacturers decrease line widths, power consumption drops. Power consumption is mostly determined by toggling rate x gate output capacitance x operating voltage. (the gate output capacitance has to charged to hi voltage or discharged to lo voltage on every toggle).

As line width drops, operating voltage drops, drain capacitance drops and power consumption drops.
My point was meant to be that any new Pen F need not accommodate a larger battery. Perhaps the efficiencies in newer technology is enough to realize enough battery life gain to negate the need for a larger battery.

I’m also dubious about the validity of CIPA shot count comparisons as I think they have become pretty much irrelevant in the Mirrorless world.
Well I would welcome a slightly larger battery and more efficient components. Although I only take stills and don't spray and pray so the battery usually last me a full day.
 
I’m also dubious about the validity of CIPA shot count comparisons as I think they have become pretty much irrelevant in the Mirrorless world.
CIPA is the sole (that I'm aware of) standardized comparison tool among camera models. The shot count itself doesn't mimic how most people really use cameras but is quite helpful learning which has longer life between/among competing models. Among cameras I own, it's a pretty reliable predictor of duration.

Cheers,

Rick
 
Maybe so...but I've had the older battery in the PEN F, E-5 M II, and the E-M1. The smaller battery in my E-M5 III, E-M10 III, E-M10 II and the PEN PL7, easily outlasted any of the others.

For me simply put the innards from the E-M5 III, plus an expanded JPEG engine from the Pen F and an OLED EVF and I'm in.
CIPA ratings are almost on par: 310 shots for the M5iii and 330 for Pen F. IIUC the M5iii battery capacity is lower so some efficiency improvements with the M5iii seem to have occurred, especially given the much bigger feature set. As electronic components continue to be miniaturized that seems likely.

Cheers,

Rick
Good comment.

As chip manufacturers decrease line widths, power consumption drops. Power consumption is mostly determined by toggling rate x gate output capacitance x operating voltage. (the gate output capacitance has to charged to hi voltage or discharged to lo voltage on every toggle).

As line width drops, operating voltage drops, drain capacitance drops and power consumption drops.
My point was meant to be that any new Pen F need not accommodate a larger battery. Perhaps the efficiencies in newer technology is enough to realize enough battery life gain to negate the need for a larger battery.

I’m also dubious about the validity of CIPA shot count comparisons as I think they have become pretty much irrelevant in the Mirrorless world.
Well I would welcome a slightly larger battery and more efficient components. Although I only take stills and don't spray and pray so the battery usually last me a full day.
But if the battery was actually smaller in size, but longer in battery life ( like the battery in my E-M5 III compared to the one in my E-M5 II) that would seem to me to be the better alternative than just a larger battery.
 
Maybe so...but I've had the older battery in the PEN F, E-5 M II, and the E-M1. The smaller battery in my E-M5 III, E-M10 III, E-M10 II and the PEN PL7, easily outlasted any of the others.

For me simply put the innards from the E-M5 III, plus an expanded JPEG engine from the Pen F and an OLED EVF and I'm in.
CIPA ratings are almost on par: 310 shots for the M5iii and 330 for Pen F. IIUC the M5iii battery capacity is lower so some efficiency improvements with the M5iii seem to have occurred, especially given the much bigger feature set. As electronic components continue to be miniaturized that seems likely.

Cheers,

Rick
Good comment.

As chip manufacturers decrease line widths, power consumption drops. Power consumption is mostly determined by toggling rate x gate output capacitance x operating voltage. (the gate output capacitance has to charged to hi voltage or discharged to lo voltage on every toggle).

As line width drops, operating voltage drops, drain capacitance drops and power consumption drops.
My point was meant to be that any new Pen F need not accommodate a larger battery. Perhaps the efficiencies in newer technology is enough to realize enough battery life gain to negate the need for a larger battery.

I’m also dubious about the validity of CIPA shot count comparisons as I think they have become pretty much irrelevant in the Mirrorless world.
Well I would welcome a slightly larger battery and more efficient components. Although I only take stills and don't spray and pray so the battery usually last me a full day.
But if the battery was actually smaller in size, but longer in battery life ( like the battery in my E-M5 III compared to the one in my E-M5 II) that would seem to me to be the better alternative than just a larger battery.
Yeah ok I agree
 
I'd buy it. Make it L-mount and release a 35 mm 1.8 with it.
Yes - I am sure that Panasonic would be happy to take their order and build it under licence with an added distinctive pretty badge. Leica might also be happy to also re-badge and re-knob it with a red roundel for twice as much - would sell like hot cakes.
If Panasonic followed Sony's lead and made a rangefinder FF (maybe in a GX8 sized body with a great EVF, though), I would have to seriously consider FF again.

-J
It did seem like it might be logical - after all Panasonic quickly followed the G9 with the GX9 and they have seemed to make faux-dslr bodies and similar RF-style Flat Tops as well.

Maybe it was a pre-emptive strike from Sony? In any case Sony did surprise as so far in FF ML bodies they just have made four series of A7 style bodies and very similar A9 bodies in various permutations. One of the strengths of M4/3 has been multiple shapes and sizes of camera bodies which can mount any of the oem M4/3 lenses.

Maybe the Sigma fp was supposed to be “it”. But it is so way out there in video land and does not even have an inbuilt evf of any description.

The S1 is a very nice camera to use and seems in the Panasonic tradition of something I would be happy to use for years and years. But of course I only have it as another horse to mount my tribe of canon EF lenses on. It is as big as my GM5 bodies are small.
 

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