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Move on from Foveon

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furtle said:
Thanks, Scott. I hadn't seen those photos or links. Some good work on show. All using Sigma's DG lenses which is not surprising. This small DG lenses promised by Sigma look like a great pairing for the fp. Like the Sony A7, I think some adapted lenses will work well but not wide angle. Such as M mount lenses. However, without a EVF, focussing will be very tricky. The Sigma loupe is too big to mess around with.
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I can't say, because I haven't used it, but that loupe is almost three hundred dollars. That's pretty annoying, but it makes the camera just over two grand. That's not bad, in my opinion, for a camera that can be tiny. I doubt it weighs as much as the SD Quattro or SD1 Merrill, even with the loupe attached. Of course you will probably need to carry an extra battery with you. I had to carry two extra batteries in my back pocket for my SD Quattro H, and those batteries have a decent battery life. I just didn't want to get to a location, and then have no battery power, after an hour long hike. That actually almost happened to me. I was almost out of battery power one time, when I finally made it to the location of the waterfall I had hiked up the mountain to shoot. Unfortunately, my camera fell over, and broke, and I could only shoot with my Nikon after that. I wonder how much it will cost to fix my SD Quattro H.
furtle said:
The fp's high ISO performance looks to be excellent making it a great low light camera.
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Yes, it sure does. I doubt the fp is good at focusing in the dark situations though, unfortunately. Hopefully I'm wrong.
 
DMillier said:
If you are merging multiple images, you have any resolution you like. That's not really a basis for computing the effective pixel ratio for Bayer to Foveon images.

I tested my DP2M against my 2/3" sensor 6MP Fuji X10. A3 prints looked identical. I think the DP2M is higher resolving though!

I have more confidence in technical measurements of resolution over subjective conclusions.

Imaging Resource resolution chart measurements for:

D500 (~21MP Bayer)

~2,550 lines of strong detail from JPEGs, about the same from converted RAW files.

DP2M (~15MP)

Very high resolution, ~2,200 lines of strong detail

D3400 (~24MP Bayer)

~2,750 to ~2,800 lines of strong detail.

dp2 quattro (~20MP) is:

Extremely high resolution, about 3,100 to 3,200 lines of strong detail

D800 (36MP Bayer)

Extremely high resolution, ~3,300 to 3,400 lines of strong detail.

One can question the methodology, of course, but I don't see any real evidence that Foveon resolves more than about 1.5x Bayer sensor. IR tend to report lower resolution than some sites, because they are more conservative about aliasing artefacts. Foveon detail can sometimes be enhanced by aliasing false data. IR ignore this.

Enlargeability also involves microcontrast and freedom from artefacts which complicates things but in terms of basic resolution performance, I think we can rule out some of the wilder claims.
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Image processing is as important as the small differences in megapixels. Still, there is this:

"So, which camera in this Sigma SD1 Merrill vs Nikon D800E review would I recommend for Fine Art landscape work?

Both, actually. The Sigma SD1 Merrill is definitely the best bang for your buck if you are starting from scratch, or if you want to step up your game and haven’t already invested heavily into one particular system. If you already have a Nikon D800E, I’d not sell it to get the Sigma unless you felt hopelessly in love with the Foveon look. If you shoot stuff other than landscape and Fine Art and you can’t afford to maintain two systems, the Nikon D800E is definitely the choice making more sense out of the two.

However, if you are a romantic like me and do not mind spending a bit of time to get your images right and to process them carefully one by one, for Fine Art Landscape work the Foveon look has something special to it that to me makes it worth working with, no matter the headaches that Sigma’s software will give you to get there. So, I will keep the Sigma SD1 Merrill for now and bring it with me to my next outing in Scotland (leaving the Nikon D800E at home this time over), to work with it exclusively for about a month and see what I can do with it."

https://www.vieribottazzini.com/2013/06/sigma-sd1-merrill-vs-nikon-d800e-review-part-1.html
 
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Scottelly said:
Unfortunately, my camera fell over, and broke, and I could only shoot with my Nikon after that. I wonder how much it will cost to fix my SD Quattro H.
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Sorry to hear about the H, Scott!

My condolences ...
 
Thanks Ted.
 
I'd be happy to play with a SD1 if someone gave me one. I don't think I'd pay the kind of asking prices I'm seeing.

I'd like someone to give me a Fuji 50, as well, if they are feeling generous :-)
 
xpatUSA said:
Scottelly said:
xpatUSA said:
danski0224 said:
D Cox said:
20 Megapixels for a FFF is definitely not enough. Even 24 Mpix is too low for 2021, unless the price is very low (as it is for the sdQ).

30 Megapixels would be more like it. Remember the competition has pixel shift.

Don Cox
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Disclosure: I have a Sigma Merrill, a Quattro and a Canon 5DsR (none purchased new).

In my experience, either of those Sigma cameras will run neck and neck with the 50 megapixel Canon. All require "the best" lenses and deliberate use to produce sharp photos that stand up to scrutiny.

Using Sigma math backwards, that 50mp Canon is really "only" 12.5mp, right? So it is a lower resolution than either Sigma generation mentioned above.
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If I recall correctly, the consensus over the years in this Forum is a factor of about 1.6. Ergo, 50MP would equate to about 30MP.

I may have forgotten, where can I find the "Sigma math" for 1:1:1?
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Ummm . . . I think it's 1.7, and that is a spacial calculaition, not a megapixel calculation.
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No, @danski has already explained his arithmetic here:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64593656
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I was referring to posts like this one Ted, though he goes on to calculate MP * 1.7, which is wrong, because calculations need to be linear pixels horizontal and vertical (i.e. when comparing to a 24 MP Bayer pattern CFA sensor, you'd calculate 1.7x the horizontal for my SD Quattro images, which are 6,192 pixels across, so the Sigma image would be equivalent to 6,192 x 1.7 = 10,526 and in vertical 4,128 x 1.7 = 7,018 . . . and the total megapixel equivalency being 10,526 x 10,018 = 73,871,468 or about 74 MP):

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60713377

Of course Sigma does not claim the Quattro H to be equivalent to a 74 MP Bayer pattern CFA camera. Those 1.7x claims for spatial resolution were for the original X3 sensors, and not the Quattro sensors. Today Sigma is claiming twice the top layer, which for the SD Quattro H is 25.5 MP, so Sigma claims a 51 MP equivalence.

It will be interesting to see what Sigma claims for the 20 MP per layer full-frame Foveon. Will they go back to the total equivalence of the megapixels of the three layers, or will they make a 2x claim, like they did for the Quattros, or will it be something else? At the moment they're calling the new, upcoming sensor a 60 MP sensor. That will be interesting, and surely controversial.

--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
 
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xpatUSA said:
Scottelly said:
DMillier said:
When you mention 60MP 1:1:1, are you referring to 20:20:20 or 60:60:60?
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20 MP per layer.
xpatUSA said:
If 20MP X3, we are talking a Bayer equivalent of 30-40MP
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Maybe, but maybe not. It all depends on who you talk to. I have read in many places that the 15 MP images from the SD Quattro H are superior to the 36 MP images from the Nikon D800E/D810.
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Scott, I haven't read anything about the 15 MP images from the SD Quattro H ...

... puzzled. ;-)
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Ooops! I'm so used to typing SD Quattro H that I used that instead of SD1 Merrill. Sorry Ted.
 
DMillier said:
[snip]
The fp is unfortunately the only recently new camera Sigma has made said:
"Digital SLRs with full-frame 35mm (44 mm diagonal) sensors are the cameras of choice for professionals and serious amateurs who can afford them. The best of them-- the Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II-- has image quality comparable to medium format film (645). The recently-announced EOS 5D comes close, and it is smaller, lighter, and less expensive. The number of pixels in full frame cameras will slowly increase, topping out around 24 megapixels. There would be little benefit from more pixels: resolution would be limited by the lens, and noise, dynamic range, and yield would deteriorate."

He also wrote:

"Fantasy 4: X3 sensor, same spacing as the D60, filling a 24x36mm frame.

4864x3242 (15.8MP)

resolution relative to 35mm film: 1.58

Performance may surpass medium format [film] if such a sensor could be built."

And you call the fp "low resolution".... :-)
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Yes, I do, and compared to the current state-of-the-art 61 MP sensor in the Sony A7r IV, a 24 MP sensor is indeed a low resolution sensor. Sigma has been pushing the envelope for detail capture for about ten years. Why step back now, and not offer a camera with more resolution, like an L-mount camera with the 51 MP equivalent H size Quattro sensor? I already explained why, but I wish Sigma had made new SDL Quattro and SDL Quattro H cameras last year or even this year. I don't know how difficult it would have been, so maybe this idea would not really be practical. Maybe their decision not to had something to do with the different lenses that would be mounted on the L-mount cameras.
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Scottelly said:
xpatUSA said:
Scottelly said:
DMillier said:
When you mention 60MP 1:1:1, are you referring to 20:20:20 or 60:60:60?
Click to expand...
20 MP per layer.
Scottelly said:
If 20MP X3, we are talking a Bayer equivalent of 30-40MP
Click to expand...
Maybe, but maybe not. It all depends on who you talk to. I have read in many places that the 15 MP images from the SD Quattro H are superior to the 36 MP images from the Nikon D800E/D810.
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Scott, I haven't read anything about the 15 MP images from the SD Quattro H ...

... puzzled. ;-)
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Ooops! I'm so used to typing SD Quattro H that I used that instead of SD1 Merrill. Sorry Ted.
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No problema, Scott.

Just as I know what you mean by "SD Quattro H", I did guess what was implied by "15MP" ... :-D
 
Lukacs85 said:
Quattro's problem also the noise. I got green color noise even at iso200. 50 f1.4 art lens was really good, but even at 1.4 most times iso100 was just too low to get enough shutter speed handheld. Of course if you have tripod it's not problem. The sensor needs at least clean iso 400 to become competitive. Live only at iso100 after 2020 is a dead end.
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I don't think so. As long as the camera is not too expensive, then it will have its uses, even if limited to ISO 100. I almost always shoot from a tripod, and almost always at ISO 100. I use my SD Quattro H more than my Nikon D810. Soon I will be shooting with my SD1 Merrill again, and I will see what I think of it compared to my Nikon D810. The problem is I only have one really good lens for my Nikon. I plan to get more i.e. 50mm f1.4 Art lens and 14-24mm f2.8 G). I might get the Nikon 24-70mm f2.8 G for mid-range use. I still plan to shoot with my Sigma SD Quattro H most of the time though. I just LOVE the photos from that thing.

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--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
 
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joe173 said:
Ceistinne said:
furtle said:
The DP2M was launched in 2012. The only current Foveon Sigma camera, the dp and sp Quattro's, were launched in 2014 & 2016. respectively. For electronic devices, they are old. Earlier SD and DP cameras are now very old. Only Ricoh with its GR has had such a long periods without new models.

The cameras' ages alone, makes it no surprise that people "move on". These old cameras will fail entirely or end up with intermittent faults and their values make them irrational to repair, even if it is possible to do so. I've got a dead DP1s with a failed focus mechanism. It looks like a new camera but it's useless.

All the above are statements of the blindly obvious but because of them, Sigma have to acknowledge their loyal Foveon buyers will drift away. Getting them back will be hard, even if a full frame Foveon (FFF) sensor camera is launched.

There is no doubt that Sigma can produce a camera with a very high build quality cameras and the fp is an excellent example. I gather it's been popular and looking at some of the photos it produces with the Sigma Art lenses, especially in conditions where the Foveon cameras are hopeless, its popularity comes as no surprise.

If a FFF camera is delivered in 2021 - and I now sense that is a big if - and it is sensible money what is the expected market? I'd guess it would be tiny. If it ends up as a camera that only shines at ISO 100, then it's an even smaller market. To add to Sigma's FFF challenge, Bayer sensors have improved since the Quattro launch in 2014.

For me, I guess I'll carry on as an occasional amateur photographer using my current Sigma Foveon cameras when I can and until they pack up. I certainly wouldn't have them repaired. I'm potentially a prime customer for the FFF at the moment but that situation is fading.

Best, Steve
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Steve,

I think you should email exactly what you have written here directly to Kazuto Yamaki at Sigma Japan, because I think you are right and people will continue to drop off unless some information is released soon regarding the FFF or some other new camera offering. I was tempted to copy your post myself but would not do so without your permission.

S
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Hmm...there is a valley in the camera market. People are unable to travel safely with the virus so that is happening less.
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I just traveled to 8 states over the last five weeks, and I ate at almost 100 restaurants, and did not get the virus! I don't agree that people can not travel safely. I don't know if people are traveling less - most likely, because either they don't have the income now, or they are locked down, like they seem to be in many places in Australia. Many countries have closed their borders to foreigners, so I won't even try to fly somewhere. Besides, flying in a plane with a bunch of strangers for a few hours doesn't sound very appealing to me right now. I don't mind driving places though, and most countries have lots of interesting places to go by car, and shoot photos.
joe173 said:
Money is an issue with less work.
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Yes, but some people are doing quite well right now. A friend of mine is doing great, and getting paid more per hour than ever. Another friend is selling houses like hotcakes.
joe173 said:
This is a perfect time to spend the extra time to get the next camera done right. Most people are buying videocams and spending their time on zoom, not out on vacation.
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I'm not so sure about that either. The campground I stayed in a couple of weeks ago decided to stay open for November, because they were so busy. They always closed at the end of October in years past.
joe173 said:
Regarding sales, the number has always been low. I'd bet not more than 10k cameras are being sold per year, maybe less.
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I wouldn't be surprised, but I think Sigma will keep selling their dp series cameras for a while, and I think the full-frame Foveon camera might be the best-selling camera Sigma has ever made with a Foveon sensor in it. I believe the fp might out-sell it though, because people see the Foveon sensor as alien, and not capable, because of its high-ISO noise.
 
Scottelly said:
Lukacs85 said:
Quattro's problem also the noise. I got green color noise even at iso200. 50 f1.4 art lens was really good, but even at 1.4 most times iso100 was just too low to get enough shutter speed handheld. Of course if you have tripod it's not problem. The sensor needs at least clean iso 400 to become competitive. Live only at iso100 after 2020 is a dead end.
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I don't think so. As long as the camera is not too expensive, then it will have its uses, even if limited to ISO 100.
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Agreed, Scott.

I've NEVER understood the high-ISO fetish exhibited by many digital camera users.

The plain fact is that, unlike film cameras, the digital camera comes loaded with a sensor that has only a fixed, unchangeable ISO (ignoring Aptina dual). Any setting above so-called "base" ISO underexposes the sensor giving a lower Signal-to-Noise Ratio. That is to say that if a camera provides a "clean iso 400" then an iso 100 shot will be 4X cleaner.

As I have said before, my cameras are super-glued in "base" ISO ...

... "not enough light" = no shot in my world.

--
WYSINWIG: what you see is not what I got.
 
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DMillier said:
[snip]
The fp is unfortunately the only recently new camera Sigma has made said:
"Digital SLRs with full-frame 35mm (44 mm diagonal) sensors are the cameras of choice for professionals and serious amateurs who can afford them. The best of them-- the Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II-- has image quality comparable to medium format film (645). The recently-announced EOS 5D comes close, and it is smaller, lighter, and less expensive. The number of pixels in full frame cameras will slowly increase, topping out around 24 megapixels. There would be little benefit from more pixels: resolution would be limited by the lens, and noise, dynamic range, and yield would deteriorate."

He also wrote:

"Fantasy 4: X3 sensor, same spacing as the D60, filling a 24x36mm frame.

4864x3242 (15.8MP)

resolution relative to 35mm film: 1.58

Performance may surpass medium format [film] if such a sensor could be built."

And you call the fp "low resolution".... :-)
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In support of which, long ago Clark wrote:

"Too few pixels are bad for image quality and too many pixels are bad for image quality. So there must be an optimum."

See graph here:

Loading…

clarkvision.com

Apparently 5 to 6 um pixel pitch is optimum. Not too far away from the current FFF proposal.

Old article though, before anyone rushes to point that out ...
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Greetings Again

I can't do it. I can't change here's why.

I know why I'm addicted to Sigma. I was watching the movie folklore by Tyler Swift on Disney +(here in the USA) and I realized that musicians use different pianos, but there still pianos. All the guitars are different, but they're still guitars. They all have a different flavor, that's the Sigma/Foveon to me, that's the the SD9 through the SDQ-H. They have different flavors as they changed the Foveon. For me I was looking at it all wrong, one camera one lens is great, but one Foveon for that days shoot, like using a SD9 with a 35mm one day then the next time or day the SDQ-H with a 35mm. It's like film, when I used film I had 4 cameras with different film types in each camera and I took the time to use them. Let me say that again, I took the time to use them. With a Bayer camera they're all the same, they look the same. I believe Fuji is different. The Fuji isn't a Bayer sensor it has a different flavor.

Here's what I leaned while watching Tyler Swift movie folklore: the long pond studio sessions, they don't talk about gear, they use what they have, a guitar is a guitars a piano is a piano. Where I have a issues is all the cameras use different lens systems that's where Sony is smart with all they're adapters. I was thinking about this all wrong. For me the difference is like shooting different films only using the same lens system. I can't make up excuses for changing systems any longer, time is getting short. Try and watch folklore: the long pond studio sessions. It reminded me of people/photographers I use to know, I use to hang out with for years, it's with great sadness I say they all past on now except me I'm the last one. We use to sit around and talk photography, not gear or tech crap or what company was going under today we talked photography. So Sigma and I are together to the end.

I'm returning the Olympus tomorrow.

Enjoy

Roger J.
 
Scottelly said:
D Cox said:
Scottelly said:
D Cox said:
xpatUSA said:
D Cox said:
20 Megapixels for a FFF is definitely not enough.
Click to expand...
For whom?

It's much more than enough for me!
Click to expand...
Entry level today is 24 Mpix, and customers expect a low price for that. It's no good saying "But these are better pixels" as this can be countered by "I don't want a weird camera."
Click to expand...
If that were true, Nikon wouldn't be making this brand new camera:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1515330-REG/nikon_d6_dslr_camera_body.html
Click to expand...
That's a special use model, meant for sports photographers who want very fast burst rates. The price is extremely high.
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Is this also a "special use" model?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1547010-REG/canon_eos_r6_mirrorless_digital.html

The fact is there are many high-end digital cameras that come with a 20 MP sensor. There are hundreds of digital cameras listed at B and H, when I searched for cameras with 20 MP sensors, and they include many of the m4/3 cameras, the top-of-the-line Canon and Nikon cameras, including that one I first linked to, which is Nikon's newest professional camera, if I'm not mistaken, and all the cameras with 1" sensors, but there are still cameras on the market with sensors that capture fewer than 20 MP. I don't think it's accurate to say that entry level is more than 20 MP.
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My idea of an entry level camera is the Sony A6000, now discontinued.
 
xpatUSA said:
DMillier said:
[snip]
The fp is unfortunately the only recently new camera Sigma has made said:
"Digital SLRs with full-frame 35mm (44 mm diagonal) sensors are the cameras of choice for professionals and serious amateurs who can afford them. The best of them-- the Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II-- has image quality comparable to medium format film (645). The recently-announced EOS 5D comes close, and it is smaller, lighter, and less expensive. The number of pixels in full frame cameras will slowly increase, topping out around 24 megapixels. There would be little benefit from more pixels: resolution would be limited by the lens, and noise, dynamic range, and yield would deteriorate."

He also wrote:

"Fantasy 4: X3 sensor, same spacing as the D60, filling a 24x36mm frame.

4864x3242 (15.8MP)

resolution relative to 35mm film: 1.58

Performance may surpass medium format [film] if such a sensor could be built."

And you call the fp "low resolution".... :-)
Click to expand...
In support of which, long ago Clark wrote:

"Too few pixels are bad for image quality and too many pixels are bad for image quality. So there must be an optimum."

See graph here:

https://clarkvision.com/articles/digital.sensor.performance.summary/index.html#FSAIQ

Apparently 5 to 6 um pixel pitch is optimum. Not too far away from the current FFF proposal.

Old article though, before anyone rushes to point that out ...
Click to expand...
I have seen no sign at all that image quality is lower on the high resolution cameras.

But my argument for having more than 20 Mpix on the FFF is about marketing. I don't think people will buy a low resolution camera in 2022, however magical the pixels.

At 24 Mpix, direct comparisons with the usual Bayer cameras can be made without having to scale one of the images up or down. Moire can be compared.

Remember that potential customers will be looking for reasons not to buy a Sigma camera.
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D Cox said:
xpatUSA said:
DMillier said:
[snip]
The fp is unfortunately the only recently new camera Sigma has made said:
"Digital SLRs with full-frame 35mm (44 mm diagonal) sensors are the cameras of choice for professionals and serious amateurs who can afford them. The best of them-- the Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II-- has image quality comparable to medium format film (645). The recently-announced EOS 5D comes close, and it is smaller, lighter, and less expensive. The number of pixels in full frame cameras will slowly increase, topping out around 24 megapixels. There would be little benefit from more pixels: resolution would be limited by the lens, and noise, dynamic range, and yield would deteriorate."

He also wrote:

"Fantasy 4: X3 sensor, same spacing as the D60, filling a 24x36mm frame.

4864x3242 (15.8MP)

resolution relative to 35mm film: 1.58

Performance may surpass medium format [film] if such a sensor could be built."

And you call the fp "low resolution".... :-)
Click to expand...
In support of which, long ago Clark wrote:

"Too few pixels are bad for image quality and too many pixels are bad for image quality. So there must be an optimum."

See graph here:

https://clarkvision.com/articles/digital.sensor.performance.summary/index.html#FSAIQ

Apparently 5 to 6 um pixel pitch is optimum. Not too far away from the current FFF proposal.

Old article though, before anyone rushes to point that out ...
Click to expand...
I have seen no sign at all that image quality is lower on the high resolution cameras.
Click to expand...
Hard to comment without a definition of "image quality".

Clark posts his definition in the reference provided, and shows the aforesaid optimum quite clearly in the referenced graph.

I on the hand have measured that sharpness per pixel decreases consistently with pixel pitch.
Click to expand...
 
D Cox said:
Scottelly said:
D Cox said:
Scottelly said:
D Cox said:
xpatUSA said:
D Cox said:
20 Megapixels for a FFF is definitely not enough.
Click to expand...
For whom?

It's much more than enough for me!
Click to expand...
Entry level today is 24 Mpix, and customers expect a low price for that. It's no good saying "But these are better pixels" as this can be countered by "I don't want a weird camera."
Click to expand...
If that were true, Nikon wouldn't be making this brand new camera:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1515330-REG/nikon_d6_dslr_camera_body.html
Click to expand...
That's a special use model, meant for sports photographers who want very fast burst rates. The price is extremely high.
Click to expand...
Is this also a "special use" model?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1547010-REG/canon_eos_r6_mirrorless_digital.html

The fact is there are many high-end digital cameras that come with a 20 MP sensor. There are hundreds of digital cameras listed at B and H, when I searched for cameras with 20 MP sensors, and they include many of the m4/3 cameras, the top-of-the-line Canon and Nikon cameras, including that one I first linked to, which is Nikon's newest professional camera, if I'm not mistaken, and all the cameras with 1" sensors, but there are still cameras on the market with sensors that capture fewer than 20 MP. I don't think it's accurate to say that entry level is more than 20 MP.
Click to expand...
My idea of an entry level camera is the Sony A6000, now discontinued.
Click to expand...
Here's my idea of an entry level camera:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...ar_vx054_blk_10_1mp_digital_camera_black.html

Here's a nice step up to a "quality" Kodak entry level camera:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1318517-REG/kodak_fz53_bk_pixpro_fz53_compact_digital.html

Here's my idea of an entry level pro-sumer camera (also a Kodak, surprisingly):

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1391175-REG/kodak_az652bk_pixpro_az652_astro_zoom.html

Here's my idea of an entry level interchangeable lens pro-sumer

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1351010-REG/olympus_v207072bu010_om_d_e_m10_mark_iii.html

Here's my idea of an entry level interchangeable lens pro-sumer DSLR camera:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1238183-REG/canon_1159c003_eos_rebel_t6_dslr.html

. . . and here's my idea of an entry level interchangeable lens pro-sumer full-frame camera:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...lce7sm2_b_alpha_a7sii_mirrorless_digital.html

The first version would have been a better choice, but they've been discontinued.

This might be a more appropriate choice for an entry level full-frame camera, because of the price:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1459282-REG/canon_eos_rp_mirrorless_digital.html

Of course, if you wanted to stick with Sony products, because you have a Sony TV and a Sony stereo system, you might decide on this, less-expensive Sony camera, with which you get twice the megapixels vs that more expensive Sony:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...ilce7m2_b_a7ii_mirrorless_digital_camera.html

The thing is, that less expensive Sony is not good in low-light situations, where a typical beginner might expect their camera to work. It's only able to meter in -1 EV, while the one I chose initially can meter to -4 EV. That one can clear its buffer faster too, which is something a typical beginner would want (and a pro too, I guess).

You see . . . entry level can mean a lot of things to a lot of people.

;)
 
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Scottelly said:
furtle said:
Thanks, Scott. I hadn't seen those photos or links. Some good work on show. All using Sigma's DG lenses which is not surprising. This small DG lenses promised by Sigma look like a great pairing for the fp. Like the Sony A7, I think some adapted lenses will work well but not wide angle. Such as M mount lenses. However, without a EVF, focussing will be very tricky. The Sigma loupe is too big to mess around with.
Click to expand...
I can't say, because I haven't used it, but that loupe is almost three hundred dollars. That's pretty annoying, but it makes the camera just over two grand. That's not bad, in my opinion, for a camera that can be tiny. I doubt it weighs as much as the SD Quattro or SD1 Merrill, even with the loupe attached. Of course you will probably need to carry an extra battery with you. I had to carry two extra batteries in my back pocket for my SD Quattro H, and those batteries have a decent battery life. I just didn't want to get to a location, and then have no battery power, after an hour long hike. That actually almost happened to me. I was almost out of battery power one time, when I finally made it to the location of the waterfall I had hiked up the mountain to shoot. Unfortunately, my camera fell over, and broke, and I could only shoot with my Nikon after that. I wonder how much it will cost to fix my SD Quattro H.
Scottelly said:
The fp's high ISO performance looks to be excellent making it a great low light camera.
Click to expand...
Yes, it sure does. I doubt the fp is good at focusing in the dark situations though, unfortunately. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Click to expand...
Scott,

What is broken in your sd Q H.?

Was the lens damaged also.?

S
 
Ceistinne said:
Scottelly said:
furtle said:
Thanks, Scott. I hadn't seen those photos or links. Some good work on show. All using Sigma's DG lenses which is not surprising. This small DG lenses promised by Sigma look like a great pairing for the fp. Like the Sony A7, I think some adapted lenses will work well but not wide angle. Such as M mount lenses. However, without a EVF, focussing will be very tricky. The Sigma loupe is too big to mess around with.
Click to expand...
I can't say, because I haven't used it, but that loupe is almost three hundred dollars. That's pretty annoying, but it makes the camera just over two grand. That's not bad, in my opinion, for a camera that can be tiny. I doubt it weighs as much as the SD Quattro or SD1 Merrill, even with the loupe attached. Of course you will probably need to carry an extra battery with you. I had to carry two extra batteries in my back pocket for my SD Quattro H, and those batteries have a decent battery life. I just didn't want to get to a location, and then have no battery power, after an hour long hike. That actually almost happened to me. I was almost out of battery power one time, when I finally made it to the location of the waterfall I had hiked up the mountain to shoot. Unfortunately, my camera fell over, and broke, and I could only shoot with my Nikon after that. I wonder how much it will cost to fix my SD Quattro H.
Ceistinne said:
The fp's high ISO performance looks to be excellent making it a great low light camera.
Click to expand...
Yes, it sure does. I doubt the fp is good at focusing in the dark situations though, unfortunately. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Click to expand...
Scott,

What is broken in your sd Q H.?

Was the lens damaged also.?

S
Click to expand...
The front plate broke (almost came off the camera). I don't think the lens is broken at all. It looks to have no problems. It doesn't have a scratch on it. The camera "saved" the lens, "cushioning" its landing. Here's a photo of the front of the camera, showing the crack and how the front panel of the camera is pulled out from the camera (most-likely caused by the lens, when the camera stopped moving, and the lens just refused to stop moving):

View attachment 2663804
Notice the dirt on the right side of the camera, where it hit the ground.

I was hoping for some kind of killer deal on the SD Quattro H on Black Friday, but so far that hasn't happened. I worry that if I get the camera fixed, it will cost me almost as much as a new one, and the weather seals won't work right anymore. If that happens, since it won't be under warranty it could be put out of commission again the first time I get caught in a sprinkling rain again, like happened more than once on this recent trip. The thing is, that's the first time it happened to me in more than a year, so I could get the camera back and use it for a few weeks or a few months, before it gets ruined by rain, and my money is down the drain. At least if I get a new one, I can be relatively sure a light rain won't kill my camera. Too bad the 24-70mm f2.8 OS Art isn't weather sealed too. I COULD just buy a Nikon 24-70 G or 24-120 f4 VR G lens, and be done with it. I can still use my Sigma lenses on a Sony A7r IV, when I finally get one, using my MC-11 adapter, or on a future Sigma full-frame Foveon camera. I've also been considering the purchase of a used Nikon Z7, with an adapter for my Nikon lenses and another adapter for using Sony E-mount lenses, which would be much less expensive than the Sony A7r IV, and I can use my amazing Nikon 85mm f1.4 G and all Sony E-mount lenses (including my Sigma SA-mount lenses, by using my MC-11 adapter). Eventually I'll probably get another SD Quattro H though, whether it be one that comes on sale or a good deal on a used one, because I believe that even a Nikon Z7 won't have the image quality I got with my SD Quattro H. For now I will continue to shoot with my Nikon D810 and my Sigma SD1 Merrill, and I will miss my SD Quattro H for a while.

Luckily the SD Quattro H didn't get killed near the beginning of my trip, so I have lots of photos of the autumn leaves, made with a Foveon sensor, like this one:

957afa2dbf7b461e8190477bdcfde8d8.jpg

. . . and here's what that looks like after adjusting and sharpening the OOC jpeg:

d92ee903b28b4a7dac6808f2d7869ca4.jpg



--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
 

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