Move on from Foveon

After more than 10 years with different Sigma cameras (DP1, DP2m, DP1m, SDQ, DP2Q, DP3m) I decided to move.

I have also Ricoh GR3, very comparable to DP1m after some PP. however never able accomplish to recreate Merrill's rendering, still I find more pleasant for wider purposes. This made the first intention to move higher MP bayer sensor based option without AA filter.

28mm is great point-and shoot FOV, my favourite still DP2's 45mm. I made a bold decision, just purchased an EF mount Voigtlander 40 1.2 barely used with a good deal. I'm selling my current Sigmas (DP1M, DP2M, DP2Q), except DP3M because it is the sharpest camera ever made and never able leave completely X3 I think. I use the fund to purchase A7RII or perhaps A7RIII body for CV40. I'm looking forward how will compare my new gear to older Foveon, also it is a quite different beast with the extreme wide aperture. I want to try more "analogue", MF challenging option. I feel 10 years with a computer like Sigma cameras with almost perfect edge-to edge sharpness was a long journey, and I just need something very different.

Lukacs85 said:

After more than 10 years with different Sigma cameras (DP1, DP2m, DP1m, SDQ, DP2Q, DP3m) I decided to move.

I have also Ricoh GR3, very comparable to DP1m after some PP. however never able accomplish to recreate Merrill's rendering, still I find more pleasant for wider purposes. This made the first intention to move higher MP bayer sensor based option without AA filter.

28mm is great point-and shoot FOV, my favourite still DP2's 45mm. I made a bold decision, just purchased an EF mount Voigtlander 40 1.2 barely used with a good deal. I'm selling my current Sigmas (DP1M, DP2M, DP2Q), except DP3M because it is the sharpest camera ever made and never able leave completely X3 I think. I use the fund to purchase A7RII or perhaps A7RIII body for CV40. I'm looking forward how will compare my new gear to older Foveon, also it is a quite different beast with the extreme wide aperture. I want to try more "analogue", MF challenging option. I feel 10 years with a computer like Sigma cameras with almost perfect edge-to edge sharpness was a long journey, and I just need something very different.

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You will find the IQ is better from that high res Sony, certainly the DR in your photos. I use my DP3M sometimes 'cause I like the Foveon rendering a lot and the sharpness of the images. But the lack of DR from Foveon is always obvious. As a camera tool, the DP3M is rubbish compared to the other cameras these days.

I like the 40mm focus lenght a lot too, but cameras have all lens corrections build in, as you know, with the native lenses. I use an EF 85mm with metabones om my Lumix, so no lens corrections are applied and it is always a stuggle to get the best IQ out of a non native lens with raw converters. I use Photolab.

I would use native lenses on the Sony, I think it needs always a lot of post production to get the best IQ out of the Voightlander on the Sony, but maybe it works ok, I don't know ... never saw any photos of that combination.

I had the Sony A7Rll in my hand in a shop, I thought it was a small fiddly camera, it didn't feel good in my hand. But I can't afford the Sony system anyway ...
Succes!

Jozef

Lukacs85 said:

After more than 10 years with different Sigma cameras (DP1, DP2m, DP1m, SDQ, DP2Q, DP3m) I decided to move.

I have also Ricoh GR3, very comparable to DP1m after some PP. however never able accomplish to recreate Merrill's rendering, still I find more pleasant for wider purposes. This made the first intention to move higher MP bayer sensor based option without AA filter.

28mm is great point-and shoot FOV, my favourite still DP2's 45mm. I made a bold decision, just purchased an EF mount Voigtlander 40 1.2 barely used with a good deal. I'm selling my current Sigmas (DP1M, DP2M, DP2Q), except DP3M because it is the sharpest camera ever made and never able leave completely X3 I think. I use the fund to purchase A7RII or perhaps A7RIII body for CV40. I'm looking forward how will compare my new gear to older Foveon, also it is a quite different beast with the extreme wide aperture. I want to try more "analogue", MF challenging option. I feel 10 years with a computer like Sigma cameras with almost perfect edge-to edge sharpness was a long journey, and I just need something very different.

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While I do retain an interest in the Foveon, I too am moving in a similar direction. Having already bought a Panasonic Lumix DC-G9 and a seriously good m4/3 12-35mm lens, I find the ease of use excellent and the image quality quite adequate for my needs.

I did buy a new SD9 for masochistic purposes ( like yourself, I can't let go entirely) and the SD15 for IR hangs in the balance as I begin to lose interest in full-spectrum work.

Lukacs85 said:

After more than 10 years with different Sigma cameras (DP1, DP2m, DP1m, SDQ, DP2Q, DP3m) I decided to move.

I have also Ricoh GR3, very comparable to DP1m after some PP. however never able accomplish to recreate Merrill's rendering, still I find more pleasant for wider purposes. This made the first intention to move higher MP bayer sensor based option without AA filter.

28mm is great point-and shoot FOV, my favourite still DP2's 45mm. I made a bold decision, just purchased an EF mount Voigtlander 40 1.2 barely used with a good deal. I'm selling my current Sigmas (DP1M, DP2M, DP2Q), except DP3M because it is the sharpest camera ever made and never able leave completely X3 I think. I use the fund to purchase A7RII or perhaps A7RIII body for CV40. I'm looking forward how will compare my new gear to older Foveon, also it is a quite different beast with the extreme wide aperture. I want to try more "analogue", MF challenging option. I feel 10 years with a computer like Sigma cameras with almost perfect edge-to edge sharpness was a long journey, and I just need something very different.

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You might consider moving up to Medium Format. The difference in prices is not that big nowadays

Unfortunately even A7RII is almost out of my budget for less than half price of 50R

Agreed. I moved from an sdQH to a Fuji GFX50R. The pace of taking photos is the same, but the RAW files are much more malleable in post, the DR is much better, and using Fuji lenses, things are much sharper. Also, it made me realize just how much shutter shock the sdQH had.

Lukacs85 said:

Unfortunately even A7RII is almost out of my budget for less than half price of 50R

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Still.. I would try to save up some more or look at the 2nd hand market. H-system from Hasselblad is plummeting, Fuji 50-series are 'dirt-cheap' and who know you can get your hands on a Pentax.

Then again, my own journey was peculiair. Went from Dp3M to 1Dsmk III for more speed, en after that to H5D50c... still use all of them.

Innocentius said:

Lukacs85 said:

Unfortunately even A7RII is almost out of my budget for less than half price of 50R

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Still.. I would try to save up some more or look at the 2nd hand market. H-system from Hasselblad is plummeting, Fuji 50-series are 'dirt-cheap' and who know you can get your hands on a Pentax.

Then again, my own journey was peculiair. Went from Dp3M to 1Dsmk III for more speed, en after that to H5D50c... still use all of them

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Fuji 50s or x1d are my favorites, they are not huge and heavy. But I don't want to invest so much money into this hobby. I like Foveon because the IQ for relative low price. High resolution Bayer was out of my league until now, older generation Sony cameras bacome quite affordable.

I find theese MF cameras a bit boring. Always tempted by film MF cameras, because they have shallow DOF at wide angle and same time quite sharp. Digital MF I think is most of resolution with sharpness. I choose the Voigtlander 40 1.2 path because I think it's renders more the film MF look than MF digital with clinical native lenses.

Good luck Luka. I bet you will come back when the full-frame Foveon sensor is finally in a camera, and it's available to the public in L mount. Who knows though? Maybe you'll just upgrade to the newer Sony A8, or whatever is available by then.

I bought a Sony A7Rii on Black Friday last year thinking it would be a good upgrade/replacement for my DP2M.

It is, and it isn't. Image quality in good light is about as good, image quality in low light is much much better, but I think I need a better lens than my Samyang 45mm f1.8 to really beat the DP2M (amazing that little lens is so good).
A better lens means a much larger camera/lens combination, and that's really the reason why I'm still using my DP2M more than the A7Rii.
If I'm going out for a walk or bike ride it's no problem putting the DP2M in a jacket pocket, but the A7Rii with lens needs a bag, so the DP2M still gets more use.

If I could go back I wouldn't have bought it, but then I'd still be wondering if I should have bought it, some things you just have to try out for yourself to see how it works for you.

--
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A7rii defintely not replacement for DP2M, the size difference is day and night. Also there are MILC cameras based on APS-C or 4/3 sensor with some f2.8 primes in small package. Merrill's texture rendering also irreplaceable, that's why I want to keep my DP3M.

I'm afraid when 1:1:1 FF camera comes out it will even bigger than SD Quattro. And if I want to mimic sheet film MF look I have to go with 35 f1.2 Art lens to produce that shallow DOF, 3D look with good sharpness. But also the size and weight would 3 times of A7R+CV40 combination.

Lukacs85 said:

A7rii defintely not replacement for DP2M, the size difference is day and night. Also there are MILC cameras based on APS-C or 4/3 sensor with some f2.8 primes in small package. Merrill's texture rendering also irreplaceable, that's why I want to keep my DP3M.

I'm afraid when 1:1:1 FF camera comes out it will even bigger than SD Quattro. And if I want to mimic sheet film MF look I have to go with 35 f1.2 Art lens to produce that shallow DOF, 3D look with good sharpness. But also the size and weight would 3 times of A7R+CV40 combination.

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I don't find the sdQH too big. It's very comfortable to hold and easy to use. And why would the FFF be bigger ?

Using a wide angle lens when you want a shallow depth of field strikes me as perverse. Anyway, there are plenty of good wide aperture manual focus lenses for the times when you want a shallow DoF. I find the Nikkor 50mm f/1.4 works well and has a smooth bokeh.

My concern about the FFF is that it will cost more than I can manage.

The DP2M was launched in 2012. The only current Foveon Sigma camera, the dp and sp Quattro's, were launched in 2014 & 2016. respectively. For electronic devices, they are old. Earlier SD and DP cameras are now very old. Only Ricoh with its GR has had such a long periods without new models.

The cameras' ages alone, makes it no surprise that people "move on". These old cameras will fail entirely or end up with intermittent faults and their values make them irrational to repair, even if it is possible to do so. I've got a dead DP1s with a failed focus mechanism. It looks like a new camera but it's useless.

All the above are statements of the blindly obvious but because of them, Sigma have to acknowledge their loyal Foveon buyers will drift away. Getting them back will be hard, even if a full frame Foveon (FFF) sensor camera is launched.

There is no doubt that Sigma can produce a camera with a very high build quality cameras and the fp is an excellent example. I gather it's been popular and looking at some of the photos it produces with the Sigma Art lenses, especially in conditions where the Foveon cameras are hopeless, its popularity comes as no surprise.

If a FFF camera is delivered in 2021 - and I now sense that is a big if - and it is sensible money what is the expected market? I'd guess it would be tiny. If it ends up as a camera that only shines at ISO 100, then it's an even smaller market. To add to Sigma's FFF challenge, Bayer sensors have improved since the Quattro launch in 2014.

For me, I guess I'll carry on as an occasional amateur photographer using my current Sigma Foveon cameras when I can and until they pack up. I certainly wouldn't have them repaired. I'm potentially a prime customer for the FFF at the moment but that situation is fading.


Best, Steve

I think FF high resolution cameras was always comparable to SD Quattro in terms of IQ, of course they presented Bayer weakness like moire, haloing edges at large magnification, but still have a huge DR reserve compared to Foveon. The main advantege of Simga cameras was:

1. Affordable low iso performance, comparable to high-end FF cameras

2. DP series compactness with unbeatable low iso IQ

3. Unique texture rendering, especially with Merrill serie.

The first advantage is becoming obselete, older high resolution models like A7R2 are quite affordable, and I don't think new FF 1:1:1 gonna cheaper than any high res FF camera.

Second also gone, Ricoh GR3 and Fuji X100V IQ are very comperable, also far more responsive and versitale, and now there are huge amount of mirrorless built with very good 24MP bayer or 26MP X-Trans sensor.

Third is still standing, however for only a very thin minority. It's not a problem, I like minoritis with special needs, preference. But I just get bored lately with foveon rendering, and slowly moved from landscapes, artistic stills to people where skin tones in different lighting, DR more critical than surface microcontrast. And always was a big fan of MF film wider FOV 3D look because shallower DOF, but in case of 6x9 where f2.8 normal lens is common, you need 1.8 with digital MF and 1.2 with 35mm for similar separation. Well at 6x9 it is still f2.8 with higher sharpness, less CA, but I don't want to bother with analogue film. Maybe sometime in future.

I don't think because better, cheaper cameras came out theese old foveon cameras became worse. They capable the same thing before 5-10 yeras, and I barely complained. Just my needs changed during the time.

I love the SD Quattro H for shooting portraits, using my "little" 70-300 OS. I think I'd like it even better with the 70-200mm f2.8 OS Sport or the 135mm f1.8 Art.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61777397

Keep in mind that those photos in that post are OOC jpegs. The SD Quattro H makes amazingly good OOC jpegs. I like them better than what I get out of my Nikon D810. The Nikon D850 still costs about three times as much as the SD Quattro H. Both are getting "old" now . . . but Canon's newest mirrorless camera is the same resolution as that older Nikon. So is Nikon's newest camera. At 45 MP neither blows away the SD Quattro H. It's more like they shoot faster, and with tilt screen capability, but for much more money. In my opinion, my 45 MP Sigma SD Quattro H is at least equivalent in resolution of fine details, when compared to those new Canon and Nikon cameras (the R5 and the Z7 II). Are those other cameras more capable in many ways? Sure. They both have video capability, IBIS, high-resolution viewfinders, fast speed of operation, Wi-Fi, etc. None of them can capture color quite as well as the Sigma cameras can, with their Foveon sensors, and I will venture to say that may stay the same forever. It seems that the resolution race (megapixel race) is over. Canon stepped back from 50 MP to 45 MP. Nikon never stepped up to 50 MP. Now Sony has a 60 MP camera, but neither Canon or Nikon decided to step up to match the newest Sony . . . so the new Sony will reign supreme for some time. I doubt Sony will do much other than upgrade the A7r IV to and A7r V that is capable of 8K video. The resolution of its sensor will remain the same (60 MP).

If Sigma does indeed make a 60 MP, full-frame, Foveon, 1:1:1 sensor, and put it into a good quality L-mount body, there will be buyers . . . possibly a lot of buyers. Sigma probably doesn't mind if there are only a few buyers though. It will be their first foray into the world of full-frame Foveon sensors. They probably expect it to fail in one way or another, though it does seem like they consider its success to be at least somewhat important. It's probably a matter of honor that they make the sensor well, and produce the best Sigma camera that they have ever made. I believe that it will be. I think it's a matter of pride for Mr. Yamaki that the camera will be very good. I expect it to be more expensive than the Sigma fp is today ($1,799), which is about 50% more than the SD Quattro H is today ($1,099).

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1493858-REG/sigma_fp_mirrorless_digital_camera.html


fp

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1234172-REG/sigma_sd_quattro_h_mirrorless.html


SDQH

I actually think it will sell pretty well, if it does turn out that the Sigma L-mount camera with the full-frame Foveon sensor is under $2,000. Even if it costs $3,000 though, I think it will sell quite a few units to people who are unsatisfied with the image quality of the Panasonic S1R, and want something special to use with their expensive Panasonic and Leica lenses. They will also be drawn into the quality of the Sigma line of Art lenses, but those are available in Sony mount too, where they can get the Sony A7r IV, with its 60 megapixel sensor. The Panasonic S1R will have its uses (high-ISO, speed shooting, and ultra-high-resolution pixel-shift capability), but for those who appreciate ultimate image quality, with its nuance color differences (like special films), the Sigma camera, with its amazing Foveon sensor, will be the camera they shoot with sometimes.

I don't think Sigma will ever offer a camera wih a Foveon sensor that does anything but fill a niche (and possibly a niche that never existed before that camera came along - see the fp), but filling a niche can be a way to success, as we have seen with the GoPro cameras. Sigma is used to selling very few camera. With the new mount they will get past the big limitation that the SA mount presented (the lack of customers willing to buy into a new system of lenses that were not usable wih other brands of cameras). Sigma sort of fixed the "limitation" with the SA mount, when they introduced the adapter to use their lenses on the Sony mirrorless cameras, and I think maybe in doing so they were given a taste of what they could have, if they used a more "popular" mount. They may have realized that joining the L Mount Alliance would be the right move, because of those adapters they made for using the SA-mount lenses on Sony cameras. It could be that because of its L mount the full-frame Foveon will be the most successful camera with a Foveon sensor ever made. Still, it will be a niche camera, incapable of doing many of the things that other cameras can do (i.e. high-ISO shooting with low noise, 14 frame per second shooting speed, auto-focus speed and accuracy good enough for pros to shoot the Olympics, 8K video, etc.), and that will make it a "limited" camera. I will probably buy one though, even though it will probably make 20 MP images in "native" mode, and my SD Quattro H makes 25.5 MP images in the similar mode. Why? Because the photos will be the best I have ever seen, and nobody else will be making a camera that offers more resolution of fine details, combined with nuance color capture and lack of color moiré. (Don't forget that upgrading to a Foveon sensor will upgrade all your lenses too - their definition will be improved, because there will be the lack of Bayer blur, and because they can offer a true 20 MP image, while they can not offer the same with a 60 MP sensor. 20 MP for a modern lens is easy, and just as it worked for the SD14, it will work for the full-frame Foveon camera too.) Sure, the Sony A7r IV will make 60 MP images with more dynamic range, and those will be quite a step up in size, and they'll have their advantages (less noise at higher ISO setttings, such as ISO 800 or 1600 or higher, but I don't believe that camera will offer a significant advantage over the Sigma down at lower ISO settings, just as I felt the 12.8 MP images from my Canon 5D did not offer a significant advantage over the 4.7 MP images from my Sigma SD14, which had a much smaller sensor. (That particular resolution and rendering advantage of the Canon, and other full-frame cameras, will be gone, with the full-frame Foveon camera - not the noise advantage, but the fact that you're using the full image circle of the full-frame lenses, though the other advantages will remain - speed of shooting and quick image review, faster and more accurate focusig. massive buffer for shooting a lot of raw shots quickly, a higher-quality viewfinder, longer battery life, etc.)

I think Foveon is still in its infancy. Sure, it's been almost twenty years, but photography will not just evaporate. Photographers will still exist a hundred years from now, and there might still be Foveon sensors by then. Imagine what camera there might be ten years in the future, with a full-frame Foveon sensor? It will be fast, like the fp. It will probably focus better than ever (i.e. the dp2 Quattro vs. the DP2 Merrill). Sigma keeps on making improvements to their cameras every few years. They are not afraid to experiment, and try new things. I think that is what it takes to be successful. That's what Elon Musk does with SpaceX and Tesla. That is what Fuji does. It is even what Canon does, with its new R5 (the first full-frame Canon with IBIS, and it can do 8K video!). Even Nikon has experimented to try and achieve success (i.e. the Nikon 1 system, and their first ever full-frame camera with IBIS). Obviously Sony experimented, pioneering full-frame mirrorless, and look at their great success. Sigma will succeed in the camera business, eventually, if they keep innovating and experimenting. One might say they already have succeeded, with the fp. I think they will find at least some limited success with their full-frame Foveon camera too. For all we know, it could end up out-selling all other camera models with Foveon sensors that Sigma ever made in the past, including the SD1 Merrill, the SD15, the SD Quattro, etc. I would call that a success, and I bet Mr. Yamaki would call that a success too.

You might even decide to get a full-frame Foveon with the L mount. After-all, you'd be buying into a robust system with a choice of cameras from three different brands! Does Sony offer that? Does Canon? Nikon? No. Nobody else does - only Sigma, Panasonic, and Leica - the L Mount Alliance!



--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/

Lukacs85 said:

A7rii defintely not replacement for DP2M, the size difference is day and night. Also there are MILC cameras based on APS-C or 4/3 sensor with some f2.8 primes in small package. Merrill's texture rendering also irreplaceable, that's why I want to keep my DP3M.

I'm afraid when 1:1:1 FF camera comes out it will even bigger than SD Quattro. And if I want to mimic sheet film MF look I have to go with 35 f1.2 Art lens to produce that shallow DOF, 3D look with good sharpness. But also the size and weight would 3 times of A7R+CV40 combination.

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Why would the size and weight be three times as much?!? The SD Quattro H has a larger sensor than the SD Quattro, and it is the same size and weight. It is likely to be the same with the full-frame camera too. Sigma has already shown us that they can make a tiny full-frame camera (the fp). Other than adding a viewfinder, the full-frame Foveon does not need to be any bigger than the fp, really. The fp has the processor capacity to handle the 60 MP files from the full-frame camera. It does 4K video, which is processor intensive. Then there is the fact that the fp will actually be old by the time the full-frame Foveon arrives. There could be a new processor available by then, which could make a tiny full-frame Foveon quite responsive and quick. There's no reason to think the full-frame Foveon can not be the same size or even smaller than the Sony A7r IV. I doubt it will be as fast or have a tilt screen, but some day Sigma might make a tilt-screen camera with a full-frame Foveon sensor. Only time will tell. In fact, only time will tell if Sigma makes the full-frame Foveon finally or not anyway. For all we know, the economy will take a nose-dive over the next year, and things will get so bad for camera companies that half of them go broke, and Sigma will have to stop almost all development, just to survive the recession . . . but maybe things will go well, and the economy will recover from COVID-19 quite well, and Sigma can indeed develop that full-frame Foveon sensor and put it into a camera (or maybe two cameras).

I don't know what a CV40 is, but if it is a small old lens, maybe it can be put on L mount too. If that is the case, then it would be a competition of the 665 gram Sony A7r IV vs the Sigma full-frame camera, which could be just 100 grams heavier than the 422 gram Sigma fp, making the Sigma L-mount kit smaller and lighter than the Sony kit (and both could end up being the same price, for all we know).



The real question is what is the image quality going to be like? I will guess the Sony will have the advantage in dynamic range and low noise at high-ISO settings. The Sony has IBIS, and the Sigma probably will not. The Sony has Wi-Fi, and the Sigma probably will not. All these things are no different than what we have seen before, but you still chose Sigma vs other brands then. Your use case may have changed though, as you say, so maybe the full-frame Foveon in L mount from Sigma will not fit your needs, but that is a matter of personal preference, and a niche camera does not fit everyone's needs. So be it.

For me 20-24 MP resolution is plenty. Only reason to go Sony R series, because downsizing 40+ MP to 20, fades bayer weakness, and after a bit PP very comparable to Quattro iso100, with less noise.

I'm looking forward the FF Foveon, I hope they can keep the size small, but I'm afraid 35mm three layer sensor's cooling, processing and necessary battery for comptitive operation demands quite big camera body.

CV40 is the Voigtlander Nokton 40 f1.2, it's modern digital lens, and the only way keep the size small is MF build. The 40 1.4 ART, or 35 f1.2 ART (if we speak same speed) are optically better and has AF, but huge and heavy for walk around lenses. CV40 has also Leica M-mount version, maybe possible to mount on L with adapter.

When you mention 60MP 1:1:1, are you referring to 20:20:20 or 60:60:60?

If 20MP X3, we are talking a Bayer equivalent of 30-40MP (subject dependent) which is high resolution but not class leading. In fact, not even the highest resolution Sigma if you take their resolution equivalents at face value.

Is anyone disatisfied with the Lumix full frame image quality? I've heard good things there - the main complaint seems to be that they don't phase detect AF.

For me, the reason to contemplate a FF Foveon would not be dissatisfaction with alternative cameras but a hankering for the Merrill look but improved.

The interesting thing about Sigma adopting the L mount is that future cameras will be directly comparable with alternatives from the same mount. If L mount users like what they see, they have the option of a Foveon as a second camera without having buy two systems. Theoretically, this could open up Foveon appeal to a wider range of people. Assuming Sigma don't botch it because that would also be exposed to a wider range of people...

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20 Megapixels for a FFF is definitely not enough. Even 24 Mpix is too low for 2021, unless the price is very low (as it is for the sdQ).

30 Megapixels would be more like it. Remember the competition has pixel shift.

Don Cox

D Cox said:

20 Megapixels for a FFF is definitely not enough.

Click to expand...

For whom?

It's much more than enough for me!

--
WYSINWIG: what you see is not what I got.