motormatic
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- Thread starter 6 X 17 Feind
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007peter
Forum Pro
Agree 100%, the Image Lost going from
- 3:2 Ratio Full Frame 36mm X 24mm = 864mm^2
- 4:3 Ratio M43 17.3mm X 13mm = 225mm^2
- 225/864 = 0.26 or 26% of a 24mp FF resolution will be Horrible :-(
- I don't deny the terrible IQ lost
Imagine a common existing M43 users with 5 primes: 12/2, PL 15/.17, 20/1.7, PL25/1.4, and 42.5/1.7. If Panasonic makes a M43 → L adapter:
- then upgrading to a Panasonic $2000 S5 makes a lot of sense,
- without this adapter, then upgrade to $1799 Sony A7iii makes more sense or
- even downgrade into $999 Fuji X-S10 makes more sense
The current FF and APS-C competition is intense, and the $999 Fuji X-S!0 is awesome enough to makes a lot of us abandon m43 lens. I hope Panasonic wise up and makes one but I'm not in-charge, I can only HOPE. Finger Crossed.
rashid7
Veteran Member
"Both M43 & L mount share a 20mm flange distance, so it's technically possible."
But isn't that exactly the problem?! The reason it's so easy to adapt DSLR lenses to mirrorless is that the distance from lens to sensor is much greater in the former, allowing us to add an adapter to the "stack" of glass. Even the smallest of adapters will add about 10mm(???) in adapting m4/3 to L-mount.
And then the issue of only using a fraction of the sensor... kind of defeats the whole point of going FFrame!
Honestly, i don't see how you guys can be serious about this whole idea of adapting )-;
Naiive pie-in-the-sky
But isn't that exactly the problem?! The reason it's so easy to adapt DSLR lenses to mirrorless is that the distance from lens to sensor is much greater in the former, allowing us to add an adapter to the "stack" of glass. Even the smallest of adapters will add about 10mm(???) in adapting m4/3 to L-mount.
And then the issue of only using a fraction of the sensor... kind of defeats the whole point of going FFrame!
Honestly, i don't see how you guys can be serious about this whole idea of adapting )-;
Naiive pie-in-the-sky
Samuel Dilworth
Senior Member
[Post removed and reposted in reply to the right person this time.]
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Samuel Dilworth
Senior Member
Being realistic for a moment, most people who go full-frame will choose:
I wouldn’t touch a full-frame Panasonic, and I like Panasonic cameras and know the menu system.
Conversely, there are great unexploited opportunities in Micro Four Thirds and less direct competition – especially if Olympus drops out.
Snapping people out of their dopey full-frame reverie is a challenge, but clever marketing communications (now there’s an idea!) cost less than heaving a whole new system off the ground … in a contracting camera market. Panasonic, even now, would do better to invest seriously in educating customers about the benefits of Micro Four Thirds than going off on a doomed full-frame adventure.
But they’ve made that call, wrongly in my view, and I guess it’ll take five years before they give up full-frame as a losing proposition. And maybe, by then, all stills cameras.
The unbelievably durable fetish for the arbitrary ‘full-frame’ sensor amazes me. Who would have predicted that full-frame would hold such cachet in 2020, long after the masses abandoned 135-format film and went through a cycle of APS-C digital cameras for which new lenses were designed, breaking the reason to retain full-frame in the first place? It shows how fickle and irrational consumer markets are.
- the company with the best autofocus, sensor, etc., tech: Sony
- the company most likely to hang around for a decade: Canon
- the company with the best products: Nikon.
I wouldn’t touch a full-frame Panasonic, and I like Panasonic cameras and know the menu system.
Conversely, there are great unexploited opportunities in Micro Four Thirds and less direct competition – especially if Olympus drops out.
Snapping people out of their dopey full-frame reverie is a challenge, but clever marketing communications (now there’s an idea!) cost less than heaving a whole new system off the ground … in a contracting camera market. Panasonic, even now, would do better to invest seriously in educating customers about the benefits of Micro Four Thirds than going off on a doomed full-frame adventure.
But they’ve made that call, wrongly in my view, and I guess it’ll take five years before they give up full-frame as a losing proposition. And maybe, by then, all stills cameras.
The unbelievably durable fetish for the arbitrary ‘full-frame’ sensor amazes me. Who would have predicted that full-frame would hold such cachet in 2020, long after the masses abandoned 135-format film and went through a cycle of APS-C digital cameras for which new lenses were designed, breaking the reason to retain full-frame in the first place? It shows how fickle and irrational consumer markets are.
Bassman2003
Senior Member
I would say this situation is complicated. While the S-series are nice, the reluctance to switch entire systems will keep the lineup in the lower tiers for probably it lifetime. Meanwhile, there is a steady install base of M4/3rds users that have been seemingly been left in the dust of the FF move.
It would seem to me that Panasonic must have a better pipeline to FF sensors than M4/3rds sensors. Otherwise, why alienate your loyal customers?
I have a separate stills and video kit. The GH5 is at the center of my large sensor video equipment. I have been looking forward to a GH6 for at least two years when the GH5s did not include IBIS. Now, I am looking at the Sony a7SIII. The GH5 is just too noisy to be the 'forever cam' in your kit. Once I sell all my M4/3rds gear, I will probably never return to the format. So while this decision might be difficult for Panasonic, they are losing customers by waiting. In some ways, the pandemic gave them some more time to get the GH6 to market since the heavy hitter FF video monsters from Canon and Sony were delayed. Well, it seems they are not playing ball or the GH6 would be out already...
It would seem to me that Panasonic must have a better pipeline to FF sensors than M4/3rds sensors. Otherwise, why alienate your loyal customers?
I have a separate stills and video kit. The GH5 is at the center of my large sensor video equipment. I have been looking forward to a GH6 for at least two years when the GH5s did not include IBIS. Now, I am looking at the Sony a7SIII. The GH5 is just too noisy to be the 'forever cam' in your kit. Once I sell all my M4/3rds gear, I will probably never return to the format. So while this decision might be difficult for Panasonic, they are losing customers by waiting. In some ways, the pandemic gave them some more time to get the GH6 to market since the heavy hitter FF video monsters from Canon and Sony were delayed. Well, it seems they are not playing ball or the GH6 would be out already...
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Who says nikon has the best products? I'm not saying nikon doesn't produce nice cameras, but 'best' product is hardly a objective statement.
007peter
Forum Pro
Agree, Gh5(S) could be have been a Video Killer like Sony A7(S). Sadly the STUPID JUSTIFICATION for the Removal of IBIS KILLED any consumer appeal for a GH5(s) this has got to be one of the Top Worse panasonic decision ever made.
Agree Again. Most people here don't shoot video. They don't seem to realized that
If you FILM in lowlight, Fullframe sensor is a MUST. People here still like to blame Panasonic for making its (L) mount system. But the honest truth is poor high iso in M43 sensor is a severe limitation on filming. Making a $2000 Gh6 with a M43 sensor with the same poor iso6400~250,000 is Dead-on-Arrival. Sure, Panasonic will eventually release a m43 Gh6, but its finally released, both the high price tag and poor high iso will place it behind any FF competition.
Keep in mind also that a $999 Fuji X-S10 has IBIS, a 26mp X-Trans sensor that produce nice iso6400, it even offer a whopping 240P 10X Slow Motion @200mpbs for just $999. I don't see how a nearly $2000 Gh6 can compete at twice the price. I suspect, Panasonic knows this and why Gh6 is delay.
Its a no win situation for Panasonic. Gh6 (no matter what) will always be limited by its M43 sensor. If you're NOT happy with your Gh5 for its noisy performance, don't expect miracle with Gh6 either.
I'd already sold most of my M43 camera & lens, so I am free to choose between Fuji X-S10 vs Sony A7iii vs Canon RP vs Panasonic S5.
Bassman2003
Senior Member
I agree with your thoughts but I thought with a dual gain sensor they might be able to make a GH6 with clean images into the relatively high ISOs. For my uses, truly clean images up ISO 6400 would be enough for me. The GH5 really tops out at ISO 1600 where the Gh5s goes well beyond. Sadly, it is kind of a moot point because Panasonic needed to already have the GH6 on the market if they had any hope to compete. Between the Fuji and the Sony a7S III, there are a lot of features being deployed.
As I said over on DVXUser, I think they missed the window of opportunity.
As I said over on DVXUser, I think they missed the window of opportunity.
6 X 17 Feind
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Besides the Canon R-5 (that doesn't really) what other DSLRs in any sensor size out there ACTUALLY shoot unrestricted 8K? and by unrestricted I mean continuous without overheating or time limits?
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6 X 17 Feind
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6 X 17 Feind
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6 X 17 Feind
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So it appears at the moment the only DSLR sized camera capable of 8K is indeed the R5 but to make it work apparently you need to do surgery on your $3900 tool and add more thermal padding yourself.
If Panasonic comes out with an 8K capable MFT body that shoots unrestricted... 8K I think it will invigorate MFT like never before. It will be amusing to see all the videos come out on youtube,
"Why as a working professional I went back to Micro 4/3rds!"
Mark My words kids.
If Panasonic comes out with an 8K capable MFT body that shoots unrestricted... 8K I think it will invigorate MFT like never before. It will be amusing to see all the videos come out on youtube,
"Why as a working professional I went back to Micro 4/3rds!"
Mark My words kids.
Especially if they can do it with a sensor that shoots "clean" at iso 12800 or 25600
rashid7
Veteran Member
you are in dreamland my friend )-;
rashid7
Veteran Member
L-mount - yes. m4/3? - not hardly
6 X 17 Feind
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but HOPING like crazy they pull this off! and yes "clean" at iso 12800 or 25600 would be kinda dreamy... like having Margot Robbie's cell phone number dreamy but dreamy none the less.
Supposedly Sony is going to release its A9X early next year but I bet that is going to be north of $5K so I "figger" that if Panasonic wants to win back a ton of customers, an 8k GH6 that doesn't overheat and is in the $2k range? WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!
6 X 17 Feind
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