Is it a good idea to buy a Lumix DMC-LX100 for portraits ?

Vouty

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Hi !

On the paper, I love that old camera even if only 13 MB. It has a lot of features, light, ...

My question is :

Is it a good idea to buy a Lumix DMC-LX100 for portraits?

I want to buy a camera to take portraits and a camera able to manage low light (no flash) and depth of field. If the camera and I become friends, I want to keep it for years.

What do you think ?

Still possible to take good portraits with that old camera?

Printing would be no more than 8x12"

Any remark or suggestion would be welcome ... even if I do not know a lot about photography. I will do my homework to understand.

Thank you very much

nota: my budget is 300US$ (and I found a second-hand LX-100 at that price)
 
Could you provide some example photos that you admire and want to emulate? You can just provide links to a few.

This will let us better understand your needs.
 
Could you provide some example photos that you admire and want to emulate? You can just provide links to a few.

This will let us better understand your needs.
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the question and answering is quite a challenge for a new beginner that I am. So be indulgent if my ambition and my examples are very modest. I 've to learn a lot and I'm not an artist.

For me taking portraits would be 98% with the camera in hands, people waiting for the picture or not.
How I see it :
1/ preparing/calculating quickly settings before.
2/ When taking picture, my job would be just to focus on a area and to displace "depth of field" at the chosen position ( For a face to move camera closer or further)

Depth of field (blur on medal) :
even if I think it is difficult with this camera to control the Depth of field while taking the picture, I think I can make tests to know the camera and to manage it (/aperture/distance/focal length) if it is possible to focus on one spot.

My big problem is that I do not know how to check on the paper depth of field I would have at 6 feet, 10 feet , ... This is first parameter for my decision to achieve my goals

24 mm // 1.7 = ?

24mm // 5.6 = ?

24mm //16 = ?

Same for 75mm

75 mm //2.8 = ?

75 mm // ...= ?

Examples of pictures I would like to be able to take :

Example 1: (blur on medal)

example 2 :
to isolate a person in a group : at 10 feet (or less) , I would appreciate to be able to manage a depth of field of 5 to 10 inches.

Light and blur (background)
lot of this :

I would try this kind of things ... on the fly if I like the light


also help of flash (may be) :

Thank you for your help

Gilles
 
You can take good portraits with almost any camera.

Good results in dim light are more of a problem. An APS-C or M4/3 camera with an f/1.7 (or brighter) lens is a good starting point.
 
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even if I think it is difficult with this camera to control the Depth of field while taking the picture, I think I can make tests to know the camera and to manage it (/aperture/distance/focal length) if it is possible to focus on one spot.

My big problem is that I do not know how to check on the paper depth of field I would have at 6 feet, 10 feet , ... This is first parameter for my decision to achieve my goals
To calculate the DOF you could get, you need to know the crop factor of the lens.

The lens is marked as 10-9-34mm and is said to have a FF equivalent focal length range of 24-75mm. If you divide 24 by 10.9 or 75 by 34 you get 2.2, so that's the crop factor.

Divide a standard Circle of Confusion of 0.03mm for FF by the crop factor and you get a CoC of 0.01363.

Now plug that CoC into a Depth of Field calculator like the one at dofmaster.com along with your shooting distance and f-number and you'll get answers like:
24 mm // 1.7 = ?
@3m (10'). about 5.7m (19')
24mm // 5.6 = ?

24mm //16 = ?

Same for 75mm

75 mm //2.8 = ?
@3m, about 0.62m (2')
75 mm // ...= ?

Examples of pictures I would like to be able to take :

Example 1: (blur on medal)

https://www.pexels.com/photo/photo-of-woman-wearing-white-top-2811087/
example 2 :
to isolate a person in a group : at 10 feet (or less) , I would appreciate to be able to manage a depth of field of 5 to 10 inches.
https://www.pexels.com/photo/woman-wearing-white-and-pink-hijab-1122679/

Light and blur (background)
https://www.pexels.com/photo/female-barista-in-beanie-and-apron-resting-chin-on-had-4350057/
lot of this :
https://www.pexels.com/photo/cheerf...t-daughter-using-smartphone-together-3791664/
I think all the above have shallower DoF than the LX100 is capable of at the shooting distances used.

I think you could manage all of the below with an LX100
In your OP you also mentioned low light work. With an old sensor smaller than micro four thirds, this camera will produce noisy images in low light.
Thank you for your help

Gilles
 
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On DoF
A lens focuses at only one distance. Depth of field is the distance in front of and behind this distance, where the picture is acceptably sharp.

There are several DoF calculator apps you can download to your phone. Experience helps.

Note that the lens is actually a 10.9-34 mm lens, the 24-75 designation is the full frame equivalent field of view. DoF at f/2.8 is likewise equivalent to a full frame lens at f/6.3.

To learn more about equivalence: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2666934640/what-is-equivalence-and-why-should-i-care

The choice of aperture for a portrait depends on several factors. Very shallow DoF is one, but IMO not the best way to isolate your subject. Deliberate choice of background, distance, and careful lighting are better.

On focal length
With that being said, I'd choose a longer focal length for portraiture. I'd prefer a 70-200 mm zoom (full frame equivalent), but most of your examples (except #1) could probably be made with the LX100.

IMO, choice of focal length depends primarily on the distance between photographer and subject. In his "50 Portraits", Gregory Heisler writes:

"Distance is a funny thing in portraiture: it can work for you or against you. There's a bubble of intimacy, and you don't want it to burst. If you're too far from the subject, the connection is lost; if you're too close, it's threathened. And then there's the question of scale: How much of this person do we want to see? How big is this person in the frame? Do the eyes say it all? The set of the shoulders? How do they sit or stand? What about their clothing? Are they better isolated or seen in context? These are just some of the many considerations that come into play, occasionally resolved in advance, but more often split-second decisions made on the fly in response to the subject, situation, or moment."

Further, you may envision a certain type of portrait; environmental, with a large viewing angle which takes in some ambience, or headshot-like where the whole face can hardly be contained within the frame.

In addition, you may feel that somebody with a big nose would benefit from some perspective compression from a greater distance, or maybe you want to convey the sense of intimacy a shorter focal length could give.

IMHO, the 24-75 mm EFL of the LX100 is a limitation to be reckoned with.

On resolution
12 Mp is sufficient for an 8x10" print, but with portraits, you often need to frame loosely when taking the picture to crop closer later. It's a matter of temperament, of course, but 12 Mp leaves little headroom for cropping.

On AF speed
Generally, I think portraiture benefits greatly from fast AF. Once you've framed your model and the expression is right, you don't want to wait for the camera to focus. It seems to me, that when the LX100II was released, one of the points that was improved was AF speed. I'd check this out before buying.

Good luck and good light.
 
lx 100 sample gallery .will give you an idea what the camera is capable of.

https://www.dpreview.com/sample-gal...ic-lumix-dmc-lx100-samples-gallery/8367363979
Hi Donald,

I did it yesterday and I didn't find what I was looking for such as :

https://www.pexels.com/photo/woman-wearing-white-and-pink-hijab-1122679/

So I came here. Maybe, best would be to compare to other galleries to see if more pictures about DOF.

Thank you
All the pictures you've linked to (except the cat) were shot with wide aperture primes on full frame bodies. You simply won't get shallow DoF like that from a smaller-than-micro4/3 sensor with a wide to short telephoto zoom, even if it's reasonably bright (at f/2.8 on the long end).
 
All the pictures you've linked to (except the cat) were shot with wide aperture primes on full frame bodies. You simply won't get shallow DoF like that from a smaller-than-micro4/3 sensor with a wide to short telephoto zoom, even if it's reasonably bright (at f/2.8 on the long end).
That's true.

Only the last two photos had a background blur that could almost be duplicated by the LX100.

The cat photo had about double what the Panasonic can deliver, while the rest have 3 to 4 times the amount of blur.
 
Hi Figure Painter !

I did my homework and I care about your remarks

your numbers are :
  • 24mm/1.7 @3m (10'). about 5.7m (19') (0.7m)
  • 75mm/16 ?? @3m, about 0.62m (2') (not sure about settings)
Depth of Field Calculator
CoC:0.013 / 24mm / 1.7 / 3m => 0.7 m (2')
CoC:0.013 / 24mm / 5.6 / 3m => 2.66 m (9')
CoC:0.013 / 24mm / 16 / 3m => infinite

CoC:0.014 / 65mm / 1.7 / 4.5m => 0.21 m (8")
CoC:0.014 / 65mm / 2.8 / 4.5m => 0.35 m (1'2")
CoC:0.014 / 65mm / 5.6 / 4.5m => 0.70 m (2')
CoC:0.014 / 65mm / 16 / 4.5m => 2.06 m (7')

CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 1.7 / 3m => 0.07 m (3")
CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 2.8 / 3m => 0.11 m (5")
CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 5.6 / 3m => 0.23 m (9")
CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 16 / 3m => 0.66 m (2')

CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 1.7 / 4m => 0.12 m (5")
CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 5.6 / 4m => 0.41 m (16")
CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 16 / 4m => 1.19 m (4')

So, can we say :

This kind of picture (DOF) would be possible


not this one ?


Thank you
 
So, can we say :
This kind of picture (DOF) would be possible
not this one ?
I have an LX100 (first gen) and I don't see any reason that it wouldn't be able to take either shot but I don't get anal over DOF and I don't do portraits. I shot 50 portraits for work 8 years ago with an LX7 on a tripod with off-camera flash (and on-camera trigger) and they turned out fine for the purpose.

The LX100 is a great little camera that was subject to a lot of aggravation due to dust being drawn into the lens. I never had that as an issue.

I don't know that if I were buying a camera today I'd go with a 1st gen LX100 exclusively for portraits but it really isn't clear to me what your criteria for success is or how it will be measured.

Good luck.
 
Thank you for providing links to sample photos, and from what I can see, I don't think the LX100 will be adequate for emulating these.

Instead of depth of field, I think a better measure is the amount of background blur, which is typically what people are looking for. The amount of background blur in your sample photos are often between 3 and 4 times what the LX100 can deliver.

A very simple measure of potential background blur is proportional to the focal length divided by the f/stop value, which is the "entrance pupil width" of the lens, or the size of the optical opening in the lens when viewed from the front of the lens.

The advertising literature for the LX100 only give full frame equivalent focal lengths, not actual focal lengths. The actual focal lengths are 10.9 mm (at f/1.7) and 34 mm (at f/2.8), which gives us pupil widths of 10.9 mm / 1.7 = 6.4 mm, and 34 mm / 2.8 = 12 mm. These values are considerably smaller than the pupil widths in most of your sample photos, although much larger than high-end smartphone cameras, which have to resort to digital trickery to get blurry-looking backgrounds in portraits.

Background blur is also highly dependent on how far away is your background, and you'll get a nearly maximum effect if the background is at least ten times the distance to the subject. The blur is also proportional to the magnification of the subject on the sensor, and so limiting the field of view at your focus distance is important as well; be sure to fill the frame with your subject.
Examples of pictures I would like to be able to take :

Example 1: (blur on medal)

https://www.pexels.com/photo/photo-of-woman-wearing-white-top-2811087/
This was taken at 85 mm at f/2, which gives us a pupil width of 42.5 mm. The LX100 can't give quite the narrow angle of view as this lens, but the closest gives us only a 12 mm pupil width, meaning that you'd get about 3.5 times as much background blur with the Canon.

But this image does not have a background that really needs blurring. As Klaus mentioned, a nondescript background can substitute for blur. Blurred backgrounds are an artifice that photographers can take advantage of—in order to isolate and emphasize the subject—but we don't actually see blur in real life. While many photographers consider this a useful artifice, there are others who reject it due to it being unrealistic, and so they put much effort instead into finding good backgrounds.
example 2 :
to isolate a person in a group : at 10 feet (or less) , I would appreciate to be able to manage a depth of field of 5 to 10 inches.
https://www.pexels.com/photo/woman-wearing-white-and-pink-hijab-1122679/
This image was taken with a focal length of 55 mm f/1.8, which gives us an entrance pupil width of 30.6 mm, which again is significantly larger than what the LX100 can deliver.
This is 35 mm at f/1.8, or a pupil width of 19.4 mm
This is 50 mm at f/1.4, which gives us another large pupil width of 36 mm, giving a much blurrier background than the LX100 can deliver.

The cat photo has maybe double the blur, while the last two photos are the only ones that the LX100 could nearly duplicate, as they have only slight background blur. This is a useful comparison tool:


But again, you have to use the actual, and not equivalent focal lengths. To calculate actual focal lengths from equivalent, you divide the equivalent value by the camera crop factor, which in the case of the LX100 is 2.2, and so 24 mm equivalent / 2.2 = 10.9 mm actual.

The LX100 is a well-regarded camera, and many photographers don't miss its lack of ability to strongly blur backgrounds. It has a fairly large, low noise sensor as well, so the images will be rather clean, even in somewhat low light.

Also, if you do instead consider a larger sensor interchangeable lens camera (which is what I use), understand that lens quality will be important when shoot wide open: many ordinary f/1.8 or f/1.4 lenses suffer from lots of aberrations at wide apertures, and they may have distracting, jittery background blur or bokeh, which kind of ruins the viewing experience.
 
Depth of Field Calculator
CoC:0.013 / 24mm / 1.7 / 3m => 0.7 m (2')
CoC:0.013 / 24mm / 5.6 / 3m => 2.66 m (9')
CoC:0.013 / 24mm / 16 / 3m => infinite

CoC:0.014 / 65mm / 1.7 / 4.5m => 0.21 m (8")
CoC:0.014 / 65mm / 2.8 / 4.5m => 0.35 m (1'2")
CoC:0.014 / 65mm / 5.6 / 4.5m => 0.70 m (2')
CoC:0.014 / 65mm / 16 / 4.5m => 2.06 m (7')

CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 1.7 / 3m => 0.07 m (3")
CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 2.8 / 3m => 0.11 m (5")
CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 5.6 / 3m => 0.23 m (9")
CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 16 / 3m => 0.66 m (2')

CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 1.7 / 4m => 0.12 m (5")
CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 5.6 / 4m => 0.41 m (16")
CoC:0.014 / 75mm / 16 / 4m => 1.19 m (4')
Unfortunately, you have to use the actual focal lengths of the lens, not the full frame equivalent. For the LX100, which has a crop factor of 2.2 (that is, a full frame sensor is 2.2 times as wide as the LX100 sensor), you need to divide the equivalent focal length by 2.2:

So 24 mm equivalent is actually 24 mm / 2.2 or 10.9 mm.

65 mm equivalent = 29.5 mm actual.

75 mm equivalent = 34 mm actual.
I'm afraid not. This photo has about three times the amount of blur than the LX100 can deliver.
There is no visible background here to blur. But if there were a distant background the Canon would deliver maybe 3-4 times the blur.
 
Hi Klaus !

To read your page was also very helpful to look for the big picture :

_ To frame loosely when taking the picture to crop closer later
_ AF speed: to take a picture on the fly/expressions
_ Deliberate choice of background, distance, and careful lighting .... Yes, I agree , also important parameters
_ Citation of Gregory Heisler touches me because I'm very sensitive about this intimacy or connexion. I can feel it without any effort and it is a part of the challenge.
_ a 70-200 mm zoom (full-frame equivalent) : any suggestion for a camera + lens to know the budget ?

Thank you
 
Still possible to take good portraits with that old camera?
Who is going to decide if your portraits are good? You? Define the criteria for good. Is your intent to set up a business? Are you going to compete against portraits taken by professionals? Is your goal to take photographs of the members of a youth sporting team and sell to their parents?

I understand wanting to be good however there is good (in the eyes of the amateur and professionals who have given you answers here) and good enough meaning most people (you included) would say: that's good.

It doesn't sound like you have anything more than a general idea of what you want. With even the most expensive camera, oodles of professional lights and a professional studio it is unlikely that you are going to get good portraits for a while.

The LX100 is within your budget but was it discarded by its original owner due to dust in the zoom lens? A clean LX100 would most likely appeal to a person who was experienced with a fully manual camera from 50 years ago due to the way you are able to set all parameters using physical selections rather than menu selections. It is a capable, small camera that happens to use a MFT sensor although it isn't classified as MFT because it has a fixed lens (not changeable).

There are quite possibly cameras that would be better suited if your only purpose was to take a specific type of portrait.

As has been mentioned already - any camera (of similar vintage) will take good images (if it hasn't been otherwise damaged).

Is your intent to shoot SOOC jpg files? Do you also plan to do post processing? Using what s/w?
 
Hi !

After reading all of your answers, I decided to wait ... and not buy the LX100 camera.

I want to thank you all because I learned a lot (and I still have to learn to be comfortable with all the technical calculations on DOF and equivalent focal length).

The most important thing is that I have come back to the essence of what I would like to do.

By the way: do you have any suggestions for what kind of used camera might be right for the job?

I'll read your answers carefully, but for now, I need a break

Thank you again and have a good day everyone
 
Hi !

After reading all of your answers, I decided to wait ... and not buy the LX100 camera.
Well, it is a great camera, but not for what you said you wanted to do.
I want to thank you all because I learned a lot (and I still have to learn to be comfortable with all the technical calculations on DOF and equivalent focal length).

The most important thing is that I have come back to the essence of what I would like to do.

By the way: do you have any suggestions for what kind of used camera might be right for the job?
You have a budget of US$300, but that should not limit you too much.

I would suggest a used older DSLR, and a longish fast prime lens, in addition to a basic kit lens for other photography besides portraits.

Here are some used cameras which might be good:


A good inexpensive portrait focal length for these cameras would be about 50 mm, or more, with a minimum f/stop of f/2 or smaller, although longer lenses can get away with high f/stop values (remember focal length divided by f/stop for to background blur). Typically, you need to get lenses that are specifically for these cameras.
I'll read your answers carefully, but for now, I need a break

Thank you again and have a good day everyone
You too!
 
Still possible to take good portraits with that old camera?
Who is going to decide if your portraits are good? You? Define the criteria for good. Is your intent to set up a business? Are you going to compete against portraits taken by professionals? Is your goal to take photographs of the members of a youth sporting team and sell to their parents?

I understand wanting to be good however there is good (in the eyes of the amateur and professionals who have given you answers here) and good enough meaning most people (you included) would say: that's good.

It doesn't sound like you have anything more than a general idea of what you want. With even the most expensive camera, oodles of professional lights and a professional studio it is unlikely that you are going to get good portraits for a while.

The LX100 is within your budget but was it discarded by its original owner due to dust in the zoom lens? A clean LX100 would most likely appeal to a person who was experienced with a fully manual camera from 50 years ago due to the way you are able to set all parameters using physical selections rather than menu selections. It is a capable, small camera that happens to use a MFT sensor although it isn't classified as MFT because it has a fixed lens (not changeable).

There are quite possibly cameras that would be better suited if your only purpose was to take a specific type of portrait.

As has been mentioned already - any camera (of similar vintage) will take good images (if it hasn't been otherwise damaged).

Is your intent to shoot SOOC jpg files? Do you also plan to do post processing? Using what s/w?
You are right, and I like your answer. I'll be back later, for now, I need a break. Thank you
 

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