Panasonic DMZ 1000 vs Canon 7D Mark II Sports indoors

Detjason

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I have had the Panasonic LUMIX DMZ 1000 For a few years and it has worked good for most of my needs, except indoor basketball. which are good, but always grainy compared to my other photos.

I have been researching camera for sports and am considering Canon EOS 7D Mark II. Although the Panasonic is actually faster in burst mode.

Is it likely that I am doing something wrong and can set my Panasonic to take better indoor pictures or do you believe the Canon (or other professional DSLR) will an improvement?

I am also considering renting a 7D for a day to answer my own question, if that would cost about 100 bucks which I would rather go towards a used 7D.
I am open to other suggestions for professional DSLR under $800 used range.
thanks.
 
Solution
I have had the Panasonic LUMIX DMZ 1000 For a few years and it has worked good for most of my needs, except indoor basketball. which are good, but always grainy compared to my other photos.
It isn't grain, it's noise.

Indoor sports is one of the most technically challenging forms of still photography. Photography is about capturing light, and the low light levels in gyms combined with the high shutter speeds needed to freeze motion means that not a lot of light is captured.

The noisiness of a photo depends primarily on how much light you capture. The less light captured, the noisier the photo. The amount of light captured depends on three things:
  1. the exposure (which is the the amount of light falling on the sensor per...
Maybe if you post one of those photos with the full EXIF (straight off the camera, not processed) , someone here might be able to suggest a better setting.
 
I have had the Panasonic LUMIX DMZ 1000 For a few years and it has worked good for most of my needs, except indoor basketball. which are good, but always grainy compared to my other photos.

I have been researching camera for sports and am considering Canon EOS 7D Mark II. Although the Panasonic is actually faster in burst mode.

Is it likely that I am doing something wrong and can set my Panasonic to take better indoor pictures or do you believe the Canon (or other professional DSLR) will an improvement?

I am also considering renting a 7D for a day to answer my own question, if that would cost about 100 bucks which I would rather go towards a used 7D.
I am open to other suggestions for professional DSLR under $800 used range.
thanks.
Do you mean a Panasonic DMC FZ1000? The Canon 7D is an excellent sports camera but it's not going to beat an FZ1000 unless you get a bunch of expensive lenses; no way to do it within your budget.

The FZ1000 has a zoom that goes from 25mm to 400mm (equivalent) at f/2.8 to f/4. You can get a comparable lens like an 18-300 or a 55-250 for your Canon but it's going to be slower so your results will be similar.

If you want superior sports shots, you'll need big fast lenses like a 70-200 f/2.8 but those things are expensive.
 
I have had the Panasonic LUMIX DMZ 1000 For a few years and it has worked good for most of my needs, except indoor basketball. which are good, but always grainy compared to my other photos.
It isn't grain, it's noise.

Indoor sports is one of the most technically challenging forms of still photography. Photography is about capturing light, and the low light levels in gyms combined with the high shutter speeds needed to freeze motion means that not a lot of light is captured.

The noisiness of a photo depends primarily on how much light you capture. The less light captured, the noisier the photo. The amount of light captured depends on three things:
  1. the exposure (which is the the amount of light falling on the sensor per unit area),
  2. the efficiency of the sensor at capturing light falling on it, and
  3. the size of the sensor.
These days, efficiency is pretty much a wash between cameras, so concern yourself with the other two factors.

The sensor in the 7DII has an surface area of 336 sq mm. The sensor on the FZ1000 has a surface area of 116 sq. mm, so at the same exposure, the Canon will capture about 1 and half stops more light and thus will make less noisy images, or will produce about the same noisiness at f/6.5 and a given shutter speed as the Pansonic will produce at f/4 and the same shutter speed in the same light.

The exposure (which is not how light or dark the image looks) depends on three things
  1. the amount of light in the scene (this is low in typical gyms)
  2. the T-stop (approximated by f-stop)
  3. the length of time the shutter remains open (shutter speed)
You need a fast shutter speed to freeze motion. So with an FZ1000 shooting indoor basketball, you have a smallish sensor, low light levels, your widest f-number at the focal lengths you'll use is f/4 (not particularly wide) and you'll need a relatively fast shutter. So none of the factors is conducive to low-noise images.

With the Canon, you'll gain 1.5 stops of light from its larger sensor, and you can get f/2.8 zooms or f/1. 8 primes (another 1 - 2.3 stop advantage. So with the right lens, you'd be better off in two of the factors, which might be enough to get acceptable noise levels.
I have been researching camera for sports and am considering Canon EOS 7D Mark II. Although the Panasonic is actually faster in burst mode.
The Canon is designed for sports and action, the Panny is not. But the Canon is now a bit long in the tooth. Nikon has two newer and better models: the D500 and the D7500. I presume you chose the Canon because of its relatively low price.
Is it likely that I am doing something wrong and can set my Panasonic to take better indoor pictures
Probably not. You've probably run into the performance limits of the camera.
or do you believe the Canon (or other professional DSLR) will an improvement?
It can be with the right lens.
I am also considering renting a 7D for a day to answer my own question, if that would cost about 100 bucks which I would rather go towards a used 7D.
I am open to other suggestions for professional DSLR under $800 used range.
thanks.
Your budget is a problem here. Even used lenses that have the performance you'd likely need will tend to be expensive. A lot of inexpensive zooms for the Canon that have the right focal length will be f/5.6 at that focal length With those you'll be giving up 1 of the 1.5 stops you gained from the larger sensor, A 0.5 stop net gain isn't worth it. If you found an f/4 zoom, you'd only get a 1.5 stop increase, which will still result in noticeably noisy pictures. Zooms that are f/2.8 are expensive, but that's probably the slowest lens that would give what might be acceptable results. One way you might be able to stay in budget is to find an 85mm f/1.8 lens. You'd be restricted to a single FF equivalent focal length of 136mm (50mm native on your FZ1000). I'd suggest trying to shoot basketball at that single focal length on your Panasonic before proceeding with that solution.
 
Solution
I think FingerPainter did a good job explaining why you're having a problem with indoor sports.

The FZ1000 is a great general purpose camera but it is limited by its one-inch sensor and there are just some things it won't do as well as a larger sensor camera with a fast lens.

You haven't posted an example image so I'm not sure about how much noise you're talking about but there are some excellent noise reduction programs like Neat Image that could be a good thing for you if you decide not to spend the money for a DSLR and a good lens.

Noise reduction programs have been improved greatly over the years, and are a lot less expensive than a new camera and lens especially if a camera like the FZ1000 is on;y letting you down for a small percentage of your shots.

Anyway, good luck and do post an example if you can. With your permission, I'd like to try a little noise reduction on it just to see how it turns out.
 
Wow. This helps a lot. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain. I will try these suggestions once sports resume in a couple weeks and come back and report, with a sample.



thanks again.
 
The Canon is designed for sports and action, the Panny is not. But the Canon is now a bit long in the tooth. Nikon has two newer and better models: the D500 and the D7500. I presume you chose the Canon because of its relatively low price.
I am curious that your two recommendations are not full frame sensor, but have high burst rate. Did you not recommend a full sensor such as the D750 for low burst rate or other reason?

Thanks
 
Yes, please do. Not sure if these are the best samples, but they don't get much better. Thanks



6831808b9d92434c90cd11c4e7d98c2e.jpg





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The Canon is designed for sports and action, the Panny is not. But the Canon is now a bit long in the tooth. Nikon has two newer and better models: the D500 and the D7500. I presume you chose the Canon because of its relatively low price.
I am curious that your two recommendations are not full frame sensor, but have high burst rate. Did you not recommend a full sensor such as the D750 for low burst rate or other reason?
Price/performance, mostly. The D500 is designed as a camera for sports and action and has Nikon's Pro interface. The D7500 has many of its features in a prosumer body. The D750 is more general-purpose, but it may give you around another stop of noise advantage. It has a body similar to the D7500.

Right now the D500 and D750 cost the same at B&H. The question is whether the feature advantage of the D500 will outweigh the sensor size advantage of the D750. I think it might. And the D7500 gives you a less expensive option. IN ioncluded it becaseu price seemed to be an issue for you.

If you check this site's recommendations for best sports camera, you'll see they recommend two, the extremely expensive D5 and the D500. The D750's successor, the D780 makes the "Also consider" list, and IMO, deserves to be there. I don't understand why the D7500 didn't make that list but cameras like the X-T4 the two Olympuses and the Panasonic did. None of them focuses as well as the D7500 in typical indoor sports situations.
 
Yes, please do. Not sure if these are the best samples, but they don't get much better. Thanks

6831808b9d92434c90cd11c4e7d98c2e.jpg
I only made minor adjustments to this one and I think your focus might have been a little off but all in all, if I was taking these for myself they would be pretty good with just a little noise reduction.



6e33414bcce8452f91c6a580bc07a3af.jpg
 
Thanks. I see the improve my. What software do you use?
All I did was download the free standalone version of Neat Image and used the auto features. (nothing fancy or hard).

I think that if a person normally shoots JPEG and has a camera with a smaller sensor one of these standalone programs is pretty good provided the person isn't a perfectionist and isn't viewing their images at large sizes.

Besides that, I'm one of those people who thinks a little bit of noise is a good thing, at times, and I've even added noise to some of my images during post-processing. :-)

Just the same I do agree with others that if a person is going to take a lot of indoor sports images a DSLR and a fast lens is the best option.
 
I think FingerPainter did a good job explaining why you're having a problem with indoor sports.

The FZ1000 is a great general purpose camera but it is limited by its one-inch sensor and there are just some things it won't do as well as a larger sensor camera with a fast lens.
You haven't posted an example image so I'm not sure about how much noise you're talking about but there are some excellent noise reduction programs like Neat Image that could be a good thing for you if you decide not to spend the money for a DSLR and a good lens.

Noise reduction programs have been improved greatly over the years, and are a lot less expensive than a new camera and lens especially if a camera like the FZ1000 is on;y letting you down for a small percentage of your shots.

Anyway, good luck and do post an example if you can. With your permission, I'd like to try a little noise reduction on it just to see how it turns out.
I totally agree with all of the above.

While it indeed has some inherent limitations from its 1"-type sensor, the FZ-1000 has many features and other advantages you will lose w/ a dSLR.

There is no perfect camera for all situations, and the question concerning your overall usage bears repeating. A moderate noise-reduction may be your best and most economical solution.
 
Thanks. I see the improve my. What software do you use?
All I did was download the free standalone version of Neat Image and used the auto features. (nothing fancy or hard).
Neat Image is an excellent program.
I think that if a person normally shoots JPEG and has a camera with a smaller sensor one of these standalone programs is pretty good provided the person isn't a perfectionist and isn't viewing their images at large sizes.

Besides that, I'm one of those people who thinks a little bit of noise is a good thing, at times, and I've even added noise to some of my images during post-processing. :-)

Just the same I do agree with others that if a person is going to take a lot of indoor sports images a DSLR and a fast lens is the best option.
However, fast zoom lenses are expensive.
 
Thanks. I see the improve my. What software do you use?
All I did was download the free standalone version of Neat Image and used the auto features. (nothing fancy or hard).
Neat Image is an excellent program.
I think that if a person normally shoots JPEG and has a camera with a smaller sensor one of these standalone programs is pretty good provided the person isn't a perfectionist and isn't viewing their images at large sizes.

Besides that, I'm one of those people who thinks a little bit of noise is a good thing, at times, and I've even added noise to some of my images during post-processing. :-)

Just the same I do agree with others that if a person is going to take a lot of indoor sports images a DSLR and a fast lens is the best option.
However, fast zoom lenses are expensive.
I agree and that's why a person who doesn't take a lot of images that a camera like the FZ1000 may not be the best at, might want to put up with a little noise and use a program like Neat Image instead of spending a lot of money on another camera and an expensive lens that's going to be worthwhile.

I also agree that Neat Image is a good program. I just used the basic auto function on his image but if a person takes their time and manually adjusts the noise profile and filter settings, the program works very well.

I sometimes think casual photographers who frequent these forums get the wrong impression and believe everyone who loves photography has to have the perfect camera for every situation and they either forget or don't realize there are some excellent workarounds that can also be pretty good.

Naturally, I'm one of the biggest idiots ( :-) ) when it comes to a person who thinks they have to have the perfect camera and lenses and it's cost me a lot of money, over the years, but the biggest problem for me hasn't been the money it's that most of my pictures are still just snapshots. :-D
 
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Thanks to all of the responses. I almost bought a D500 (which is only $1219 with free shipping right now at Abes of Maine). But, I have decided to stick with my Panasonic and try the suggestions regarding settings and post production.

One observation I wanted to make here is that for me, a zoom lens isnt necessary for high school indoor basketball like it is for other sports. I have the opportunity to sit near the basket and take photos when the players are close. I only sit there for 10 or 15 minutes and get most of my shots for the game. When I go back to my seat, I would definitely need a longer lens if I wanted to keep shooting with a dslr from seats, but the Panasonic gives me this opportunity, albeit with reduced image quality.

Thanks again.
 
Thanks to all of the responses. I almost bought a D500 (which is only $1219 with free shipping right now at Abes of Maine). But, I have decided to stick with my Panasonic and try the suggestions regarding settings and post production.
Note that Abe's of Maine is not an authorized Nikon dealer and any Nikon you buy from them will not have a warranty. Typically, after you order, someone calls you and tries to sell you a third-party warranty.

In general, if you buy a new camera, you should get it from an authorized dealer of that camera manufacturer to get full factory warranty protection.
 
The Canon is designed for sports and action, the Panny is not. But the Canon is now a bit long in the tooth. Nikon has two newer and better models: the D500 and the D7500. I presume you chose the Canon because of its relatively low price.
I am curious that your two recommendations are not full frame sensor, but have high burst rate. Did you not recommend a full sensor such as the D750 for low burst rate or other reason?
Price/performance, mostly. The D500 is designed as a camera for sports and action and has Nikon's Pro interface. The D7500 has many of its features in a prosumer body. The D750 is more general-purpose, but it may give you around another stop of noise advantage. It has a body similar to the D7500.

Right now the D500 and D750 cost the same at B&H. The question is whether the feature advantage of the D500 will outweigh the sensor size advantage of the D750. I think it might. And the D7500 gives you a less expensive option. IN ioncluded it becaseu price seemed to be an issue for you.

If you check this site's recommendations for best sports camera, you'll see they recommend two, the extremely expensive D5 and the D500. The D750's successor, the D780 makes the "Also consider" list, and IMO, deserves to be there. I don't understand why the D7500 didn't make that list but cameras like the X-T4 the two Olympuses and the Panasonic did. None of them focuses as well as the D7500 in typical indoor sports situations.
Now that indoor sports are back, I have tried a variety of the recommended settings with the Pani and I am not pleased. I am now considering a used D750 (to save money over d500) with a Tamron 70-200mm F/2.8. I would be interested to hear what you think about that combo.

Thanks
 

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