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My idea... Designing the same lens for both the L mount and M43.

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C Sean

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Just to clarify I’m thinking out loud and I don’t hold any inside knowledge.

We seen companies like Sigma design one lens and have various lens mounts stuck on the back of their lenses. A lot of the Sigma M43 lenses were actually designed for APS-C formats if not all of them.

It got me thinking since Panasonic is investing in both M43 and L Mount. Would it be sensible either converting some of their L Mounts lenses to M43 or designing lenses that could be used both on the M43 and L Mount format?

For example Panasonic will be releasing a 70-300mm 4.5-5.6 for the L mount. Maybe they could convert the lens to the M43 format especially since the S5 is actually smaller than the G9.

The biggest pro to this idea if Panasonic designed say a 90mm Macro lens for both M43 and L Mount. So on one hand, the L mount get their macro lens and for M43 they get a Macro lens with a greater reach when compared to existing M43 macro lenses. However this doesn’t stop there because the strength of this when it comes to wildlife and sport lenses. For example Panasonic could design primes lenses like the 300mm F4 or a 400mm F5.6 for both formats. The L mount get a shorter prime lens but for M43 photographers they get a long reaching birding lens. We could have a 100-400mm 4.5-5.6 for the L mount and later converted to M43.

The question then raised can photographers swap the mounts on these lenses so they can use them both on the G9 or say the S1r camera. Can the lenses designed to have swappable mounts on them or a type of adapter on the lens so you could screw on either the L mount of M43 Mount depending what camera you want to use?

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C Sean said:
Just to clarify I’m thinking out loud and I don’t hold any inside knowledge.

We seen companies like Sigma design one lens and have various lens mounts stuck on the back of their lenses. A lot of the Sigma M43 lenses were actually designed for APS-C formats if not all of them.

It got me thinking since Panasonic is investing in both M43 and L Mount. Would it be sensible either converting some of their L Mounts lenses to M43 or designing lenses that could be used both on the M43 and L Mount format?

For example Panasonic will be releasing a 70-300mm 4.5-5.6 for the L mount. Maybe they could convert the lens to the M43 format especially since the S5 is actually smaller than the G9.

The biggest pro to this idea if Panasonic designed say a 90mm Macro lens for both M43 and L Mount. So on one hand, the L mount get their macro lens and for M43 they get a Macro lens with a greater reach when compared to existing M43 macro lenses. However this doesn’t stop there because the strength of this when it comes to wildlife and sport lenses. For example Panasonic could design primes lenses like the 300mm F4 or a 400mm F5.6 for both formats. The L mount get a shorter prime lens but for M43 photographers they get a long reaching birding lens. We could have a 100-400mm 4.5-5.6 for the L mount and later converted to M43.

The question then raised can photographers swap the mounts on these lenses so they can use them both on the G9 or say the S1r camera. Can the lenses designed to have swappable mounts on them or a type of adapter on the lens so you could screw on either the L mount of M43 Mount depending what camera you want to use?
Click to expand...
An mFT to L converter would be a bit over 1mm thick, so unlikely to be easy to implement (There is a Nikon Z to Sony FE converter, but that has 2mm to play with). So, in the end what you're talking about is a secondary mount system on the lens, a bit like the old Tamron 'Adaptall' system. It's certainly technically possible, but the mount adapter would need to be 'smart', so might be quite expensive. In addition, it's putting another potential source of misalignment in the lens, which might not be acceptable.

Personally, I think that Panasonic is much more likely to come out with an APS-C L-mount (probably in addition to mFT) if they want to offer a sensor size option on one of their systems. It would be much less trouble for them.
 
Thinking about it the other way, if my m43 lenses can be used on L-mount cameras via an adapter, I’d seriously consider buying into L-mount Panasonic such as the just announced S5.

The flange back is longer on the L mount but the mount is larger so the m43 lenses will have to sit inside the L mount but technically it should be doable although difficult.

I’m fully aware the image circle of my m43 won’t cover FF or APS-C but I’d be able to use any of my m43 lenses in any aspect ratio up to the full image circle.

I’m also aware a m43 crop from 24MP yields pretty low MP count but frankly I rarely need the MPs for where the images end up.

I’d then have a solid base already to start with but will probably only buy L-mount lenses going forward.

So if Panasonic wants me to transition to their FF L-mount they need to provide me a pathway to use my existing m43 lenses.
 
bobn2 said:
Personally, I think that Panasonic is much more likely to come out with an APS-C L-mount (probably in addition to mFT) if they want to offer a sensor size option on one of their systems. It would be much less trouble for them.
Click to expand...
Lately FF cameras have been gaining on APS-C cameras in both size and price. I don't think it would make sense for Panasonic to split the line at this time, they'd have nothing to gain by it.
 
Designing for L makes it too big for m43. I don't see a benefit.

Also, TBH, I wouldn't touch L-mount. They are so late to the game, with a tiny market share in a shrinking market. I would only consider one of the "big 3" being Canon, Sony, or Nikon.
 
bobn2 said:
C Sean said:
Just to clarify I’m thinking out loud and I don’t hold any inside knowledge.

We seen companies like Sigma design one lens and have various lens mounts stuck on the back of their lenses. A lot of the Sigma M43 lenses were actually designed for APS-C formats if not all of them.

It got me thinking since Panasonic is investing in both M43 and L Mount. Would it be sensible either converting some of their L Mounts lenses to M43 or designing lenses that could be used both on the M43 and L Mount format?

For example Panasonic will be releasing a 70-300mm 4.5-5.6 for the L mount. Maybe they could convert the lens to the M43 format especially since the S5 is actually smaller than the G9.

The biggest pro to this idea if Panasonic designed say a 90mm Macro lens for both M43 and L Mount. So on one hand, the L mount get their macro lens and for M43 they get a Macro lens with a greater reach when compared to existing M43 macro lenses. However this doesn’t stop there because the strength of this when it comes to wildlife and sport lenses. For example Panasonic could design primes lenses like the 300mm F4 or a 400mm F5.6 for both formats. The L mount get a shorter prime lens but for M43 photographers they get a long reaching birding lens. We could have a 100-400mm 4.5-5.6 for the L mount and later converted to M43.

The question then raised can photographers swap the mounts on these lenses so they can use them both on the G9 or say the S1r camera. Can the lenses designed to have swappable mounts on them or a type of adapter on the lens so you could screw on either the L mount of M43 Mount depending what camera you want to use?
Click to expand...
An mFT to L converter would be a bit over 1mm thick, so unlikely to be easy to implement (There is a Nikon Z to Sony FE converter, but that has 2mm to play with). So, in the end what you're talking about is a secondary mount system on the lens, a bit like the old Tamron 'Adaptall' system. It's certainly technically possible, but the mount adapter would need to be 'smart', so might be quite expensive. In addition, it's putting another potential source of misalignment in the lens, which might not be acceptable.

Personally, I think that Panasonic is much more likely to come out with an APS-C L-mount (probably in addition to mFT) if they want to offer a sensor size option on one of their systems. It would be much less trouble for them.
Click to expand...
Further to Bobn's commment, the diameter of the L-mount is significantly larger then the diameter of the M43 mount.

An adapter without optics of an L-mount lens to an M43 camera is likely to have a clearance issue with other items on the front of the camera.

An adaptal approach can of course address this as well, but it leads to further design difficulties because the rear element of the lens is typically close to the mounting flange, and now the diameter of the rear element is constrained by the throat diameter of the M43 mount.
 
bobn2 said:
C Sean said:
Just to clarify I’m thinking out loud and I don’t hold any inside knowledge.

We seen companies like Sigma design one lens and have various lens mounts stuck on the back of their lenses. A lot of the Sigma M43 lenses were actually designed for APS-C formats if not all of them.

It got me thinking since Panasonic is investing in both M43 and L Mount. Would it be sensible either converting some of their L Mounts lenses to M43 or designing lenses that could be used both on the M43 and L Mount format?

For example Panasonic will be releasing a 70-300mm 4.5-5.6 for the L mount. Maybe they could convert the lens to the M43 format especially since the S5 is actually smaller than the G9.

The biggest pro to this idea if Panasonic designed say a 90mm Macro lens for both M43 and L Mount. So on one hand, the L mount get their macro lens and for M43 they get a Macro lens with a greater reach when compared to existing M43 macro lenses. However this doesn’t stop there because the strength of this when it comes to wildlife and sport lenses. For example Panasonic could design primes lenses like the 300mm F4 or a 400mm F5.6 for both formats. The L mount get a shorter prime lens but for M43 photographers they get a long reaching birding lens. We could have a 100-400mm 4.5-5.6 for the L mount and later converted to M43.

The question then raised can photographers swap the mounts on these lenses so they can use them both on the G9 or say the S1r camera. Can the lenses designed to have swappable mounts on them or a type of adapter on the lens so you could screw on either the L mount of M43 Mount depending what camera you want to use?
Click to expand...
An mFT to L converter would be a bit over 1mm thick, so unlikely to be easy to implement (There is a Nikon Z to Sony FE converter, but that has 2mm to play with). So, in the end what you're talking about is a secondary mount system on the lens, a bit like the old Tamron 'Adaptall' system. It's certainly technically possible, but the mount adapter would need to be 'smart', so might be quite expensive. In addition, it's putting another potential source of misalignment in the lens, which might not be acceptable.

Personally, I think that Panasonic is much more likely to come out with an APS-C L-mount (probably in addition to mFT) if they want to offer a sensor size option on one of their systems. It would be much less trouble for them.
Click to expand...
1mm? Wow, that's slim! Sounds like a job for IBIS to move the sensor back a bit - if L to 4/3 is even physically possible without introducing more glass.
 
Won't work, wouldn't sell. FF lenses are larger and heavier in order to produce a large enough image circle. Focal lengths would be total mismatch at wide-normal sizes. M43 would just be sampling the center of the image, but would be paying for 4x the image production.

Sigma made some APS-C to M43 lenses which are big and heavy at only a 1.5x crop factor (or a little over 2x the image production).
 
C Sean said:
Just to clarify I’m thinking out loud and I don’t hold any inside knowledge.

We seen companies like Sigma design one lens and have various lens mounts stuck on the back of their lenses. A lot of the Sigma M43 lenses were actually designed for APS-C formats if not all of them.

It got me thinking since Panasonic is investing in both M43 and L Mount. Would it be sensible either converting some of their L Mounts lenses to M43 or designing lenses that could be used both on the M43 and L Mount format?

For example Panasonic will be releasing a 70-300mm 4.5-5.6 for the L mount. Maybe they could convert the lens to the M43 format especially since the S5 is actually smaller than the G9.

The biggest pro to this idea if Panasonic designed say a 90mm Macro lens for both M43 and L Mount. So on one hand, the L mount get their macro lens and for M43 they get a Macro lens with a greater reach when compared to existing M43 macro lenses. However this doesn’t stop there because the strength of this when it comes to wildlife and sport lenses. For example Panasonic could design primes lenses like the 300mm F4 or a 400mm F5.6 for both formats. The L mount get a shorter prime lens but for M43 photographers they get a long reaching birding lens. We could have a 100-400mm 4.5-5.6 for the L mount and later converted to M43.

The question then raised can photographers swap the mounts on these lenses so they can use them both on the G9 or say the S1r camera. Can the lenses designed to have swappable mounts on them or a type of adapter on the lens so you could screw on either the L mount of M43 Mount depending what camera you want to use?
Click to expand...
A Panasonic exec once said that they looked at making L-mount compatible with m43. Maybe that will be revisited, but probably not.

But I don't think a common/swapable mount system will benefit that many people. m43 is fairly complete and has the size-weight advantage, but with the smaller image circle.

Given that the new s5 is smaller than the GH5 and about the same price, what would make more sense is a lens adapter. Then you can shoot the lens system that you wish. I believe from looking at specs that physically, the M43 lens mount will (just) fit inside the throat of L-Mount (which is needed for the correct flange distance).
 
Bassam Guy said:
bobn2 said:
C Sean said:
Just to clarify I’m thinking out loud and I don’t hold any inside knowledge.

We seen companies like Sigma design one lens and have various lens mounts stuck on the back of their lenses. A lot of the Sigma M43 lenses were actually designed for APS-C formats if not all of them.

It got me thinking since Panasonic is investing in both M43 and L Mount. Would it be sensible either converting some of their L Mounts lenses to M43 or designing lenses that could be used both on the M43 and L Mount format?

For example Panasonic will be releasing a 70-300mm 4.5-5.6 for the L mount. Maybe they could convert the lens to the M43 format especially since the S5 is actually smaller than the G9.

The biggest pro to this idea if Panasonic designed say a 90mm Macro lens for both M43 and L Mount. So on one hand, the L mount get their macro lens and for M43 they get a Macro lens with a greater reach when compared to existing M43 macro lenses. However this doesn’t stop there because the strength of this when it comes to wildlife and sport lenses. For example Panasonic could design primes lenses like the 300mm F4 or a 400mm F5.6 for both formats. The L mount get a shorter prime lens but for M43 photographers they get a long reaching birding lens. We could have a 100-400mm 4.5-5.6 for the L mount and later converted to M43.

The question then raised can photographers swap the mounts on these lenses so they can use them both on the G9 or say the S1r camera. Can the lenses designed to have swappable mounts on them or a type of adapter on the lens so you could screw on either the L mount of M43 Mount depending what camera you want to use?
Click to expand...
An mFT to L converter would be a bit over 1mm thick, so unlikely to be easy to implement (There is a Nikon Z to Sony FE converter, but that has 2mm to play with). So, in the end what you're talking about is a secondary mount system on the lens, a bit like the old Tamron 'Adaptall' system. It's certainly technically possible, but the mount adapter would need to be 'smart', so might be quite expensive. In addition, it's putting another potential source of misalignment in the lens, which might not be acceptable.

Personally, I think that Panasonic is much more likely to come out with an APS-C L-mount (probably in addition to mFT) if they want to offer a sensor size option on one of their systems. It would be much less trouble for them.
Click to expand...
1mm? Wow, that's slim! Sounds like a job for IBIS to move the sensor back a bit - if L to 4/3 is even physically possible without introducing more glass.
Click to expand...
IBIS can't move the sensor back a bit. All IBIS systems feature a hard location in the Z-axis, generally running the sensor plane on ball bearings, sometimes PTFE sliders.
 
Interesting idea, could work for some lenses like tele lenses and macro as you pointed out.
 
bobn2 said:
Bassam Guy said:
1mm? Wow, that's slim! Sounds like a job for IBIS to move the sensor back a bit - if L to 4/3 is even physically possible without introducing more glass.
Click to expand...
IBIS can't move the sensor back a bit. All IBIS systems feature a hard location in the Z-axis, generally running the sensor plane on ball bearings, sometimes PTFE sliders.
Click to expand...
Maybe you can't repurpose IBIS to do it, but it should be possible to have a mechanism that locks the sensor into one of two Z positions depending on what mount you're using. Doesn't even have to be motorized. Whether it would be worth it is questionable.
 
john isaacs said:
Won't work, wouldn't sell. FF lenses are larger and heavier in order to produce a large enough image circle. Focal lengths would be total mismatch at wide-normal sizes. M43 would just be sampling the center of the image, but would be paying for 4x the image production.
Click to expand...
It's not really the case. Long focal length lenses generally produce a pretty large image circle whatever you do with the. At the long end, there is nothing particularly small about mFT lenses compared with FF lenses with trhe same focal length and aperture. The difference is that the mFT lenses give half the angle of view, but that applies also to an FF lens mounted on mFT. It's something that Nikon and Canon users often take advantage of, buying an APS-C camera to give more reach with their longer lenses. It makes sense for Panasonic to offer a similar facility, if they can.
john isaacs said:
Sigma made some APS-C to M43 lenses which are big and heavy at only a 1.5x crop factor (or a little over 2x the image production).
Click to expand...
Which ones are 'big and heavy' compared with similar mFT lenses?
 
Mark Ransom said:
bobn2 said:
Bassam Guy said:
1mm? Wow, that's slim! Sounds like a job for IBIS to move the sensor back a bit - if L to 4/3 is even physically possible without introducing more glass.
Click to expand...
IBIS can't move the sensor back a bit. All IBIS systems feature a hard location in the Z-axis, generally running the sensor plane on ball bearings, sometimes PTFE sliders.
Click to expand...
Maybe you can't repurpose IBIS to do it, but it should be possible to have a mechanism that locks the sensor into one of two Z positions depending on what mount you're using. Doesn't even have to be motorized. Whether it would be worth it is questionable.
Click to expand...
Indeed, no problem with that, though it would have to be very precise. In fact, it's been done. You might remember the old Contax AX, which did autofocus by moving the film plane. It was big.

See this article for the history:

https://emulsive.org/reviews/camera...he-contax-ax-autofocusing-manual-focus-lenses

Yashica/Contax should have beaten Minolta to have the first practical AF system. They even demonstrated it, but they couldn't persuade Zeiss to go along with the concept. Finally, the AX appeared as a workaround to Zeiss' intransigence.
 
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I don't see any appeal to using m43 lenses on L mount, nor vice versa.

On the 24 MP S5 or S1, an m43 lens would give you about 6MP.

And why would anyone want to bother with 6 MP from, say, the PL10-25 when the much less expensive L 20-60 kit zoom covers a similar FOV and uses the whole sensor? Yes, the 10-25 is f1.7 throughout the range, but the 20-60 is not that much darker once you account for sensor size.

If you take that 20-60 and put it on an m43 body... now an interesting wide-to-normal lens is an oddball mid-range tele zoom, replicating the (IMO) least interesting range of a kit zoom.

You mentioned a forthcoming L 75-300 f4.5-5.6. Surely this will be bigger, heavier and more expensive than the existing 100-300 f4-5.6 or the Oly 75-300, and maybe even the m43 100-400 options. What possible reason could there be to put such a lens on an m43 body? Struggling to think of any.

Overall I think the prospect of interoperability between L and m43 is a pipe dream. And it ain't tobacco in the pipe.
 
While I fully acknowledge my wishful thinking of swappable lens mount is an engineering nightmare. It could also be exploited by third parties if somehow you could screw off the L mount and screw on a M43 Mount.

However, I still think it is sensible or worth looking into if possible to design lenses that could be used for both mounts. I repost my examples again below.
  • 90mm 2.8 Macro lens
  • 400mm 5.6
  • 300mm F4
  • 100-400mm F4.5-5.6
Sadly by designing a lens for two formats, it will not save much money since the M43 lens would be smaller than it L mount counterpart and therefor won’t share the same components such as glass. The only way around this and to save money from manufacturing cost if some M43 would be happy to shoot with a redsign(Mount) Full Frame lens on their G9/Gh or E-M1. Something Fuji 100-400 owners know full well. Just to be clear it is a L mount lens except the mount and a glass redesigned to use on a M43 camera.

It worth pointing out in a Panasonic interview, they are looking at making more wildlife and sport lenses for M43.
 
C Sean said:
While I fully acknowledge my wishful thinking of swappable lens mount is an engineering nightmare. It could also be exploited by third parties if somehow you could screw off the L mount and screw on a M43 Mount.

However, I still think it is sensible or worth looking into if possible to design lenses that could be used for both mounts. I repost my examples again below.
  • 90mm 2.8 Macro lens
  • 400mm 5.6
  • 300mm F4
  • 100-400mm F4.5-5.6
Sadly by designing a lens for two formats, it will not save much money since the M43 lens would be smaller than it L mount counterpart and therefor won’t share the same components such as glass. The only way around this and to save money from manufacturing cost if some M43 would be happy to shoot with a redsign(Mount) Full Frame lens on their G9/Gh or E-M1. Something Fuji 100-400 owners know full well. Just to be clear it is a L mount lens except the mount and a glass redesigned to use on a M43 camera.

It worth pointing out in a Panasonic interview, they are looking at making more wildlife and sport lenses for M43.
Click to expand...
Just buy them all in Canon EF mount. Then an EF-M43 adapter will take care of your M43 cameras, and I'm pretty sure an EF-L mount adapter will be available if it isn't already.
 
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