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ricci talks 70-200 f2.8 s vs E-FL

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rokoko said:
BISCUT said:
I enjoy Ricci's reviews. I find him trustworthy and his opinions come across as genuine.
Click to expand...
What do we expect from a Nikon spokesman? I think he is doing his job well enough. By default, I can imagine his conclusion before finishing the whole video: "it's sharper than F mount equivalent wide open"; "corner is sharper than the F mount equivalent"...

;-)
Click to expand...
If you watched Ricci's other videos you'd realize that he can be both complimentary and equivocal. He admires the new Nikon zooms with good reason but is pretty clear when pointing out differences that may be discernible but are immaterial in real-world photography. He sees what he sees and doesn't gush over something just because it is new and shiny.
 
Virtual Photon said:
rokoko said:
BISCUT said:
I enjoy Ricci's reviews. I find him trustworthy and his opinions come across as genuine.
Click to expand...
What do we expect from a Nikon spokesman? I think he is doing his job well enough. By default, I can imagine his conclusion before finishing the whole video: "it's sharper than F mount equivalent wide open"; "corner is sharper than the F mount equivalent"...

;-)
Click to expand...
If you watched Ricci's other videos you'd realize that he can be both complimentary and equivocal. He admires the new Nikon zooms with good reason but is pretty clear when pointing out differences that may be discernible but are immaterial in real-world photography. He sees what he sees and doesn't gush over something just because it is new and shiny.
Click to expand...
I am afraid I should have watched it, but frankly I already got my answers soon after the lens was available in Tokyo (showroom). But glad you mentioned what he said.

I did watch his video years ago, but less and less recently. I had reliable advisers here, who guided me through, in a typical Japanese style, to understand which to choose and why to choose.
 
rokoko said:
VBLondon said:
Where do you read that the AF speed of the R5/6 is better than the Z6/7? I am not saying it isn't, it's just that I haven't read anything either way. It seems to me that AF speed has pretty much plateaued across most higher end bodies with the latest lenses - I just don't recall the last time I read "the X lens focuses faster with this Y body than this Z body"
Click to expand...
By chance I just read this:

http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html

6. Lens Performance: Autofocus.

Because autofocus performance is dependent on BOTH the AF performance of the camera lens AND the camera body in use, and because at this point in time the AF speed and responsiveness of Nikon's Z-series cameras lags considerably behind their top DSLR's,
Click to expand...
But he is mixing AF "performance" and AF speed.

I read Thom's review: https://www.zsystemuser.com/z-mount-cameras/nikon-z-camera-reviews/nikon-z6-camera-review.html

It specifically address AF speed (my underline added below)

The main worry of Nikon DSLR users considering a Z6 has tended to be focus speed. They needn't have worried. Phase detect is essentially instant—okay, there's lag in the electronics stream to account for, but that's minimal—so it really depends upon the performance of the focus motor in the lens as to whether the actual focus speed is good or not. The worry among DSLR users was that no other mirrorless camera with adapter has managed to achieve reasonable focus speed with existing F-mount Nikkors...................I see no tangible difference in how AF-S lenses on the FTZ adapter work (yeah, a confusion of terms, that's not single servo, but a lens motor designation). I actually think AF-P lenses may work a little faster on the Z6 than they do on the DSLRs, but that "little" is so little that I can't really measure it, and you have an apples and oranges problem to deal with even trying to do such a test. Suffice it to say that Nikon DSLR AF-I, AF-S, and AF-P autofocus lenses mounted on an FTZ adapter pretty much keep their performance characteristics on the Z6.

So I stand by my point that the AF speed with the Z70-200 does not seem to me to be waiting for a better body. Yes, overall AF performance (tracking especially I guess) will need better firmware and/or a better body. But that will apply to any lens, not specifically this one.
 
VBLondon said:
rokoko said:
VBLondon said:
Where do you read that the AF speed of the R5/6 is better than the Z6/7? I am not saying it isn't, it's just that I haven't read anything either way. It seems to me that AF speed has pretty much plateaued across most higher end bodies with the latest lenses - I just don't recall the last time I read "the X lens focuses faster with this Y body than this Z body"
Click to expand...
By chance I just read this:

http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html

6. Lens Performance: Autofocus.

Because autofocus performance is dependent on BOTH the AF performance of the camera lens AND the camera body in use, and because at this point in time the AF speed and responsiveness of Nikon's Z-series cameras lags considerably behind their top DSLR's,
Click to expand...
But he is mixing AF "performance" and AF speed.

I read Thom's review: https://www.zsystemuser.com/z-mount-cameras/nikon-z-camera-reviews/nikon-z6-camera-review.html

It specifically address AF speed (my underline added below)

The main worry of Nikon DSLR users considering a Z6 has tended to be focus speed. They needn't have worried. Phase detect is essentially instant—okay, there's lag in the electronics stream to account for, but that's minimal—so it really depends upon the performance of the focus motor in the lens as to whether the actual focus speed is good or not. The worry among DSLR users was that no other mirrorless camera with adapter has managed to achieve reasonable focus speed with existing F-mount Nikkors...................I see no tangible difference in how AF-S lenses on the FTZ adapter work (yeah, a confusion of terms, that's not single servo, but a lens motor designation). I actually think AF-P lenses may work a little faster on the Z6 than they do on the DSLRs, but that "little" is so little that I can't really measure it, and you have an apples and oranges problem to deal with even trying to do such a test. Suffice it to say that Nikon DSLR AF-I, AF-S, and AF-P autofocus lenses mounted on an FTZ adapter pretty much keep their performance characteristics on the Z6.

So I stand by my point that the AF speed with the Z70-200 does not seem to me to be waiting for a better body. Yes, overall AF performance (tracking especially I guess) will need better firmware and/or a better body. But that will apply to any lens, not specifically this one.
Click to expand...
Please, try the lens.
 
rokoko said:
VBLondon said:
rokoko said:
VBLondon said:
Where do you read that the AF speed of the R5/6 is better than the Z6/7? I am not saying it isn't, it's just that I haven't read anything either way. It seems to me that AF speed has pretty much plateaued across most higher end bodies with the latest lenses - I just don't recall the last time I read "the X lens focuses faster with this Y body than this Z body"
Click to expand...
By chance I just read this:

http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html

6. Lens Performance: Autofocus.

Because autofocus performance is dependent on BOTH the AF performance of the camera lens AND the camera body in use, and because at this point in time the AF speed and responsiveness of Nikon's Z-series cameras lags considerably behind their top DSLR's,
Click to expand...
But he is mixing AF "performance" and AF speed.

I read Thom's review: https://www.zsystemuser.com/z-mount-cameras/nikon-z-camera-reviews/nikon-z6-camera-review.html

It specifically address AF speed (my underline added below)

The main worry of Nikon DSLR users considering a Z6 has tended to be focus speed. They needn't have worried. Phase detect is essentially instant—okay, there's lag in the electronics stream to account for, but that's minimal—so it really depends upon the performance of the focus motor in the lens as to whether the actual focus speed is good or not. The worry among DSLR users was that no other mirrorless camera with adapter has managed to achieve reasonable focus speed with existing F-mount Nikkors...................I see no tangible difference in how AF-S lenses on the FTZ adapter work (yeah, a confusion of terms, that's not single servo, but a lens motor designation). I actually think AF-P lenses may work a little faster on the Z6 than they do on the DSLRs, but that "little" is so little that I can't really measure it, and you have an apples and oranges problem to deal with even trying to do such a test. Suffice it to say that Nikon DSLR AF-I, AF-S, and AF-P autofocus lenses mounted on an FTZ adapter pretty much keep their performance characteristics on the Z6.

So I stand by my point that the AF speed with the Z70-200 does not seem to me to be waiting for a better body. Yes, overall AF performance (tracking especially I guess) will need better firmware and/or a better body. But that will apply to any lens, not specifically this one.
Click to expand...
Please, try the lens.
Click to expand...
I will. My dealer thinks in the next batch.

But to come back to your point I was discussing: AF speed may depend on the body. Current Zs are not the same level as R5/6 AF wise. So the meaningful test should be held in the future

I don't think AF speed depends on the body significantly with Z lenses. The meaningful test of this lens can be done with the current Zs.
 
Last edited:
rokoko said:
VBLondon said:
rokoko said:
VBLondon said:
Where do you read that the AF speed of the R5/6 is better than the Z6/7? I am not saying it isn't, it's just that I haven't read anything either way. It seems to me that AF speed has pretty much plateaued across most higher end bodies with the latest lenses - I just don't recall the last time I read "the X lens focuses faster with this Y body than this Z body"
Click to expand...
By chance I just read this:

http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html

6. Lens Performance: Autofocus.

Because autofocus performance is dependent on BOTH the AF performance of the camera lens AND the camera body in use, and because at this point in time the AF speed and responsiveness of Nikon's Z-series cameras lags considerably behind their top DSLR's,
Click to expand...
But he is mixing AF "performance" and AF speed.

I read Thom's review: https://www.zsystemuser.com/z-mount-cameras/nikon-z-camera-reviews/nikon-z6-camera-review.html

It specifically address AF speed (my underline added below)

The main worry of Nikon DSLR users considering a Z6 has tended to be focus speed. They needn't have worried. Phase detect is essentially instant—okay, there's lag in the electronics stream to account for, but that's minimal—so it really depends upon the performance of the focus motor in the lens as to whether the actual focus speed is good or not. The worry among DSLR users was that no other mirrorless camera with adapter has managed to achieve reasonable focus speed with existing F-mount Nikkors...................I see no tangible difference in how AF-S lenses on the FTZ adapter work (yeah, a confusion of terms, that's not single servo, but a lens motor designation). I actually think AF-P lenses may work a little faster on the Z6 than they do on the DSLRs, but that "little" is so little that I can't really measure it, and you have an apples and oranges problem to deal with even trying to do such a test. Suffice it to say that Nikon DSLR AF-I, AF-S, and AF-P autofocus lenses mounted on an FTZ adapter pretty much keep their performance characteristics on the Z6.

So I stand by my point that the AF speed with the Z70-200 does not seem to me to be waiting for a better body. Yes, overall AF performance (tracking especially I guess) will need better firmware and/or a better body. But that will apply to any lens, not specifically this one.
Click to expand...
Please, try the lens.
Click to expand...
I have, and I agree with VB.

I previously owned the F-mount 70-200mm f/2.8E.

All I can say is that anyone worried about AF speed with the Z 70-200mm can relax. It's absolutely fine!
 
briantilley said:
I have, and I agree with VB.

I previously owned the F-mount 70-200mm f/2.8E.

All I can say is that anyone worried about AF speed with the Z 70-200mm can relax. It's absolutely fine!
Click to expand...
I think you were ahead of me in the list at Gray's.....so I won't know until the next batch!
 
rokoko said:
I can imagine his conclusion before finishing the whole video: "it's sharper than F mount equivalent wide open"; "corner is sharper than the F mount equivalent"...
Click to expand...
Why "imagine"?

Just look at the posted results - no imagination needed ;-)

As an owner of both lenses - I find the S is the better optic.

When it comes to AF speed I did different tests.

Based on good detail parallel to the long dimension of the frame (where Nikon ML performs best) I find the S fastest compared to the FL on a D850 - a different comparison to that in the review.

Based on detail parallel to the long dimension of the frame which is not a Nikon ML strongpoint I find the FL on the D850 can lock on better - a different comparison to that in the review.

Ricci showed both lenses about equal for AF with the FL on an FTZ.
 
Leonard Shepherd said:
rokoko said:
I can imagine his conclusion before finishing the whole video: "it's sharper than F mount equivalent wide open"; "corner is sharper than the F mount equivalent"...
Click to expand...
Why "imagine"?

Just look at the posted results - no imagination needed ;-)

As an owner of both lenses - I find the S is the better optic.
Click to expand...
Agree. By default, we already knew the conclusion with/without this video. :-)
 
Last edited:
VBLondon said:
rokoko said:
VBLondon said:
rokoko said:
VBLondon said:
Where do you read that the AF speed of the R5/6 is better than the Z6/7? I am not saying it isn't, it's just that I haven't read anything either way. It seems to me that AF speed has pretty much plateaued across most higher end bodies with the latest lenses - I just don't recall the last time I read "the X lens focuses faster with this Y body than this Z body"
Click to expand...
By chance I just read this:

http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html

6. Lens Performance: Autofocus.

Because autofocus performance is dependent on BOTH the AF performance of the camera lens AND the camera body in use, and because at this point in time the AF speed and responsiveness of Nikon's Z-series cameras lags considerably behind their top DSLR's,
Click to expand...
But he is mixing AF "performance" and AF speed.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Very interesting. So do I, and the Nikon people I talked with. :-D
VBLondon said:
VBLondon said:
VBLondon said:
I read Thom's review: https://www.zsystemuser.com/z-mount-cameras/nikon-z-camera-reviews/nikon-z6-camera-review.html

It specifically address AF speed (my underline added below)

The main worry of Nikon DSLR users considering a Z6 has tended to be focus speed. They needn't have worried. Phase detect is essentially instant—okay, there's lag in the electronics stream to account for, but that's minimal—so it really depends upon the performance of the focus motor in the lens as to whether the actual focus speed is good or not. The worry among DSLR users was that no other mirrorless camera with adapter has managed to achieve reasonable focus speed with existing F-mount Nikkors...................I see no tangible difference in how AF-S lenses on the FTZ adapter work (yeah, a confusion of terms, that's not single servo, but a lens motor designation). I actually think AF-P lenses may work a little faster on the Z6 than they do on the DSLRs, but that "little" is so little that I can't really measure it, and you have an apples and oranges problem to deal with even trying to do such a test. Suffice it to say that Nikon DSLR AF-I, AF-S, and AF-P autofocus lenses mounted on an FTZ adapter pretty much keep their performance characteristics on the Z6.

So I stand by my point that the AF speed with the Z70-200 does not seem to me to be waiting for a better body. Yes, overall AF performance (tracking especially I guess) will need better firmware and/or a better body. But that will apply to any lens, not specifically this one.
Click to expand...
Please, try the lens.
Click to expand...
I will. My dealer thinks in the next batch.

But to come back to your point I was discussing: AF speed may depend on the body. Current Zs are not the same level as R5/6 AF wise. So the meaningful test should be held in the future
Click to expand...
Well very obviously I "mixed" "the AF performance and AF speed". Sorry :-P
VBLondon said:
I don't think AF speed depends on the body significantly with Z lenses. The meaningful test of this lens can be done with the current Zs.
Click to expand...
Good luck with that. :-) Maybe you should suggest Nikon to delete this:

"The NIKKOR Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S sets an impressive new standard for fast telephoto zoom lenses optimized for the next generation of Nikon's advanced mirrorless cameras"
 
Last edited:
briantilley said:
rokoko said:
VBLondon said:
rokoko said:
VBLondon said:
Where do you read that the AF speed of the R5/6 is better than the Z6/7? I am not saying it isn't, it's just that I haven't read anything either way. It seems to me that AF speed has pretty much plateaued across most higher end bodies with the latest lenses - I just don't recall the last time I read "the X lens focuses faster with this Y body than this Z body"
Click to expand...
By chance I just read this:

http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html

6. Lens Performance: Autofocus.

Because autofocus performance is dependent on BOTH the AF performance of the camera lens AND the camera body in use, and because at this point in time the AF speed and responsiveness of Nikon's Z-series cameras lags considerably behind their top DSLR's,
Click to expand...
But he is mixing AF "performance" and AF speed.

I read Thom's review: https://www.zsystemuser.com/z-mount-cameras/nikon-z-camera-reviews/nikon-z6-camera-review.html

It specifically address AF speed (my underline added below)

The main worry of Nikon DSLR users considering a Z6 has tended to be focus speed. They needn't have worried. Phase detect is essentially instant—okay, there's lag in the electronics stream to account for, but that's minimal—so it really depends upon the performance of the focus motor in the lens as to whether the actual focus speed is good or not. The worry among DSLR users was that no other mirrorless camera with adapter has managed to achieve reasonable focus speed with existing F-mount Nikkors...................I see no tangible difference in how AF-S lenses on the FTZ adapter work (yeah, a confusion of terms, that's not single servo, but a lens motor designation). I actually think AF-P lenses may work a little faster on the Z6 than they do on the DSLRs, but that "little" is so little that I can't really measure it, and you have an apples and oranges problem to deal with even trying to do such a test. Suffice it to say that Nikon DSLR AF-I, AF-S, and AF-P autofocus lenses mounted on an FTZ adapter pretty much keep their performance characteristics on the Z6.

So I stand by my point that the AF speed with the Z70-200 does not seem to me to be waiting for a better body. Yes, overall AF performance (tracking especially I guess) will need better firmware and/or a better body. But that will apply to any lens, not specifically this one.
Click to expand...
Please, try the lens.
Click to expand...
I have, and I agree with VB.

I previously owned the F-mount 70-200mm f/2.8E.

All I can say is that anyone worried about AF speed with the Z 70-200mm can relax. It's absolutely fine!
Click to expand...
Since when" AF speed" a general term used by many, became so specific? AF speed = AF motor speed? :-D

I never worried the AF motor speed of my 80-200D ED, nor its AF speed on D850, a lens designed in 1997.
 
Last edited:
Leonard Shepherd said:
When it comes to AF speed I did different tests.

Based on good detail parallel to the long dimension of the frame (where Nikon ML performs best) I find the S fastest compared to the FL on a D850 - a different comparison to that in the review.

Based on detail parallel to the long dimension of the frame which is not a Nikon ML strongpoint I find the FL on the D850 can lock on better - a different comparison to that in the review.

Ricci showed both lenses about equal for AF with the FL on an FTZ.
Click to expand...
I did finish the video in the end.

I also tested something similar as you did, as well as Ricci did, and had the similar results.

Nikon just set up a new optical benchmark for 70-200 f2.8, period.

For now I am keeping the E version, just in case I pickup a D850 again. :-D
 
Last edited:
rokoko said:
Leonard Shepherd said:
rokoko said:
I can imagine his conclusion before finishing the whole video: "it's sharper than F mount equivalent wide open"; "corner is sharper than the F mount equivalent"...
Click to expand...
Why "imagine"?

Just look at the posted results - no imagination needed ;-)

As an owner of both lenses - I find the S is the better optic.
Click to expand...
Agree. By default, we already knew the conclusion with/without this video. :-)
Click to expand...
Conclusion ???

Surely you mean fact :-)
 
Leonard Shepherd said:
rokoko said:
Leonard Shepherd said:
rokoko said:
I can imagine his conclusion before finishing the whole video: "it's sharper than F mount equivalent wide open"; "corner is sharper than the F mount equivalent"...
Click to expand...
Why "imagine"?

Just look at the posted results - no imagination needed ;-)

As an owner of both lenses - I find the S is the better optic.
Click to expand...
Agree. By default, we already knew the conclusion with/without this video. :-)
Click to expand...
Conclusion ???

Surely you mean fact :-)
Click to expand...
Fact it is. :-D
 
rokoko said:
Photo_AK said:
bernardlang said:
The main problem with the Canon, besides its inferior optics compared to the Nikon, is the fragility resulting from its collapsing design.
Click to expand...
That's pure speculation.

Lensrentals put that lens apart and concluded that "... It’s obviously very robustly engineered from a mechanical standpoint. The internal composites are strong as hell. There are double cams, rods, and posts everywhere. There’s no play in any moving parts. We can’t imagine there will ever be play in the moving parts unless you run over it with a truck."
Click to expand...
LOL
Click to expand...
LOL ... what ...?
 
Photo_AK said:
rokoko said:
Photo_AK said:
bernardlang said:
The main problem with the Canon, besides its inferior optics compared to the Nikon, is the fragility resulting from its collapsing design.
Click to expand...
That's pure speculation.

Lensrentals put that lens apart and concluded that "... It’s obviously very robustly engineered from a mechanical standpoint. The internal composites are strong as hell. There are double cams, rods, and posts everywhere. There’s no play in any moving parts. We can’t imagine there will ever be play in the moving parts unless you run over it with a truck."
Click to expand...
LOL
Click to expand...
LOL ... what ...?
Click to expand...
If lensrentals didn't take that lens apart, everyone would still believe that could be fragile due to its design, as it supposed to be. And just forget about the truck running over... :-D
 
Last edited:
rokoko said:
Photo_AK said:
rokoko said:
Photo_AK said:
bernardlang said:
The main problem with the Canon, besides its inferior optics compared to the Nikon, is the fragility resulting from its collapsing design.
Click to expand...
That's pure speculation.

Lensrentals put that lens apart and concluded that "... It’s obviously very robustly engineered from a mechanical standpoint. The internal composites are strong as hell. There are double cams, rods, and posts everywhere. There’s no play in any moving parts. We can’t imagine there will ever be play in the moving parts unless you run over it with a truck."
Click to expand...
LOL
Click to expand...
LOL ... what ...?
Click to expand...
If lensrentals didn't take that lens apart, everyone would still believe that could be fragile due to its design, as it supposed to be. And just forget about the truck running over... :-D
Click to expand...
No, not "everyone," just the ones being wrong.
 
Photo_AK said:
rokoko said:
Photo_AK said:
rokoko said:
Photo_AK said:
bernardlang said:
The main problem with the Canon, besides its inferior optics compared to the Nikon, is the fragility resulting from its collapsing design.
Click to expand...
That's pure speculation.

Lensrentals put that lens apart and concluded that "... It’s obviously very robustly engineered from a mechanical standpoint. The internal composites are strong as hell. There are double cams, rods, and posts everywhere. There’s no play in any moving parts. We can’t imagine there will ever be play in the moving parts unless you run over it with a truck."
Click to expand...
LOL
Click to expand...
LOL ... what ...?
Click to expand...
If lensrentals didn't take that lens apart, everyone would still believe that could be fragile due to its design, as it supposed to be. And just forget about the truck running over... :-D
Click to expand...
No, not "everyone," just the ones being wrong.
Click to expand...
Correct. :-)
 
rokoko said:
Photo_AK said:
rokoko said:
Photo_AK said:
rokoko said:
Photo_AK said:
bernardlang said:
The main problem with the Canon, besides its inferior optics compared to the Nikon, is the fragility resulting from its collapsing design.
Click to expand...
That's pure speculation.

Lensrentals put that lens apart and concluded that "... It’s obviously very robustly engineered from a mechanical standpoint. The internal composites are strong as hell. There are double cams, rods, and posts everywhere. There’s no play in any moving parts. We can’t imagine there will ever be play in the moving parts unless you run over it with a truck."
Click to expand...
LOL
Click to expand...
LOL ... what ...?
Click to expand...
If lensrentals didn't take that lens apart, everyone would still believe that could be fragile due to its design, as it supposed to be. And just forget about the truck running over... :-D
Click to expand...
No, not "everyone," just the ones being wrong.
Click to expand...
Correct. :-)
Click to expand...
I don't like collapsing design and I'm glad Nikon went for internal zooming on the 70-200, it's just personal, nothing against the Canon that is built like a tank. I wish Nikon had also gone for internal zooming on the Z 247-70, at least on the f/2.8 pro lens
 
jetstream said:
rokoko said:
Photo_AK said:
rokoko said:
Photo_AK said:
rokoko said:
Photo_AK said:
bernardlang said:
The main problem with the Canon, besides its inferior optics compared to the Nikon, is the fragility resulting from its collapsing design.
Click to expand...
That's pure speculation.

Lensrentals put that lens apart and concluded that "... It’s obviously very robustly engineered from a mechanical standpoint. The internal composites are strong as hell. There are double cams, rods, and posts everywhere. There’s no play in any moving parts. We can’t imagine there will ever be play in the moving parts unless you run over it with a truck."
Click to expand...
LOL
Click to expand...
LOL ... what ...?
Click to expand...
If lensrentals didn't take that lens apart, everyone would still believe that could be fragile due to its design, as it supposed to be. And just forget about the truck running over... :-D
Click to expand...
No, not "everyone," just the ones being wrong.
Click to expand...
Correct. :-)
Click to expand...
I don't like collapsing design and I'm glad Nikon went for internal zooming on the 70-200, it's just personal, nothing against the Canon that is built like a tank. I wish Nikon had also gone for internal zooming on the Z 247-70, at least on the f/2.8 pro lens
Click to expand...
Not sure 24-70 internal zooming could be 100% internal, at least the 24-70 AF-S G seemed not. I do like internal zooming better.
 
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