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Should Sony develop an R5-like camera?

Should Sony develop an R5-like camera?

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Magnar W said:
From what I have seen, the R5 electronic shutter is claimed to read out sensor data at 1/50 sec.
Click to expand...
I have seen some claims of about 1/60 read out on the R5.
I have also seen claims saying that the 1DXmkIII is also around 1/60.
Below is a video that shows the 1DXmkIII vs the A9II.
So if all these claims with assumptions are correct, then this is what the R5 will also look like:
 
lattesweden said:
Magnar W said:
From what I have seen, the R5 electronic shutter is claimed to read out sensor data at 1/50 sec.
Click to expand...
I have seen some claims of about 1/60 read out on the R5.
I have also seen claims saying that the 1DXmkIII is also around 1/60.
Below is a video that shows the 1DXmkIII vs the A9II.
So if all these claims with assumptions are correct, then this is what the R5 will also look like:
Click to expand...
Nice and instructive video.

I would say that when electronic shutter readout is as fast or faster that vertical mechanical shutter slit travers speed (about 1/250 sec), everything is pretty good.

Why I don't say fine? I am looking forward to a full electronic shutter, where all sensor data is read out at once. Then rolling shutter/jelly effect is eliminated, and speedlites and other types of flashes can be used at any shutter speed.
 
Magnar W said:
lattesweden said:
Magnar W said:
From what I have seen, the R5 electronic shutter is claimed to read out sensor data at 1/50 sec.
Click to expand...
I have seen some claims of about 1/60 read out on the R5.
I have also seen claims saying that the 1DXmkIII is also around 1/60.
Below is a video that shows the 1DXmkIII vs the A9II.
So if all these claims with assumptions are correct, then this is what the R5 will also look like:
Click to expand...
Nice and instructive video.

I would say that when electronic shutter readout is as fast or faster that vertical mechanical shutter slit travers speed (about 1/250 sec), everything is pretty good.

Why I don't say fine? I am looking forward to a full electronic shutter, where all sensor data is read out at once. Then rolling shutter/jelly effect is eliminated, and speedlites and other types of flashes can be used at any shutter speed.
Click to expand...
I welcome electronic Global Shutter for the reason of not needing HSS on flashes and because that will also eliminate the need for a mechanical shutter making the bodys almost without moving parts (except IBIS and dails, flaps etc).
 
kolyy said:
Slaginfected said:
kolyy said:
M19 said:
kolyy said:
The motivation for this poll is that I see some Sony users to be heavily critical of the R5 in the discussions. While on the other hand I think Sony should introduce a direct competitor, which the A7S III is not, in my opinion.

What I mean by an R5-like camera? Around 45Mpx, so more like A7R III, not R IV, but sporting a significantly faster and usable electronic shutter, paired with high speed bursts. Add much improved IBIS, compared to current Sony cameras. And much more advanced video, even if heat limited in some cases. So a heat unlimited standard 4K/30p, but 10 bit 4:2:2. Then 4K/60p for 30 minutes and 4K/120p for 15 minutes. And a highly oversampled 4K (from roughly 8K) , but also limited to around 30 minutes. As for 8K or internal raw - I don't care, that's not the point, in my opinion. But let's say some of that might be in the mix as well,
Click to expand...
Technically if Sony took the A7R IV, then add 8K and 4K120p/60p (probably line skipped and limited recording for those frame rates) and oversampled 4K30p, then add some of the typical generation-to-generation improvements like AF, IBIS and rolling-shutter and maybe a deeper buffer courtesy of the CFExpress A cards, and call it the A7RV then they already have a contender against the R5.

I guess what I'm saying Sony doesn't need to create another family line to compete with the R5, the A7RIV is nearly there, it just needs a little push and called A7RV.
Click to expand...
That's a good point. My question then would be - would you like Sony to make the A7R V faster in the next generation, with better video, IBIS, but same Mpx? Or would you prefer them to go for higher resolution (say 100Mpx), but keep the rest the same (speed, video, stabilization). If it's the second case, should they then also introduce a lower resolution camera (~45Mpx), but faster with more advanced video features?
Click to expand...
While I'm repeating myself here, but it needs to be said: Resolution doesn't come for free, and the A7rIV has shown that already. 100MPix? Unless there is a big step somewhere in dealing with the light loss on a pixel level, this will have an impact (on the whole), despite people claiming the contrary. Downscaling will not fix everything.

With that said, Sony has already everything in place. They finally upgraded their Bionz for the A7sIII, and like with the Bionz X, it will be used in many many cameras to come. They are constantly improving their "Frontend-LSI", which does the initial load of image processing, probably AF, and a couple other things, before the data is handed to the Bionz. Their higher res sensors are 8K capable already.
Click to expand...
I don't think the sensors from A7R III/IV are fast enough for 8K/30p?
kolyy said:
In more recent cameras Sony reads the sensors in still shooting with 16bit. Faster FPS modes lower that to 14 or even 12bit only. In the end it is a quality vs. speed issue, and I'd rather opt for quality than 2 or 3 more FPS.
Click to expand...
Do you have any source for that? I though the A7S III is the first one with 16bit read out.
Click to expand...
There are rumors that even the A7III and maybe A7rIII are already read out in 16bit in certain shooting modes. It is definitively the case with the A7rIV in certain photo modes as outlined in the Sony white paper / marketing materials. However, the 16bits are converted in the Frontend-LSI to 14bits, same what is happening in the Sony A7sIII for pictures. The 16bit RAW video readout is unique to the A7sIII so far, yes.
 
Magnar W said:
kolyy said:
And there is a whole world between those two extremes. The A7R III/IV have a very slow electronic shutter. But the A9 is more close to the mechanical shutter in the second picture.
Click to expand...
I have mentioned this in my response higher up in this tread, where I also posted an example of rolling shutter with mechanical shutter (a little less than what should be expected from the A9/A9II).
Member said:
The R5 is probably somewhere in between, not nearly as bad as the A7R III.
Click to expand...
Even if the Canon R5 electronic shutter reads out twice as fast as the A7rIII, it will be too slow for sport and action. The A7rIII is about 1/30 sec with comressed raw. From what I have seen, the R5 electronic shutter is claimed to read out sensor data at 1/50 sec.
Member said:
My question was, whether you would value a more usable electronic shutter than in the first picture, even if it was not as perfect as the mechanical one.
Click to expand...
For static subjects readout speed doesn't matter, but as soon as there are movements the pictures might be affected by this defect.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

For anything that is moving, 1/30 second. 1/50 second or even 1/60 second readout is going to show severe problems --- to the point of being unusable in most action shooting scenarios.

For comparison Jim Kasson estimated the a9 sensor read duration at around 1/150th of a second . That's about the point at which rolling shutter and banding artefacts are mostly reduced to the point where the resulting images are acceptable. 1/60th - if that's what the R5 manages - isn't even halfway there.

There really isn't much point in delivering 20fps (which really only makes sense for fast-paced action shooting) unless you are also delivering ≥1/150th sensor readout.

Otherwise what you have is something akin to a bicycle for a fish. I.e. you can shoot 20fps but the shots will only be useful/useable if there's no fast action in them (which mostly defeats the purpose). That seems to be what the R5 is.

Of course, overheating issues (an entirely separate discussion) make for another comparable fish meets bicycle moment for the R5. ; )

--
Former Canon, Nikon and Pentax user.
Online Gallery: https://500px.com/raycologon
 
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mujana said:
...I think they should do it IF it has :
  • Global shutter
  • True 8 stops IBIS
  • unlimited 8k video recording without any overheating at all.
Click to expand...
I tend to agree.

If Sony come out with something that doesn't meet your three criteria (I would accept a stacked sensor that reads out at least as fast as the a9x as sufficient, though global shutter would be far preferable - and at least an hour of 8k without overheating would probably scrape in...) then they will have waded into the same treacherous swamp as Canon did.

Doing so after watching Canon getting roasted for going there would be a serious lapse of judgement on Sony's part. So far they have been cleverly avoiding obvious errors of this magnitude, and I hope they will continue to be smart!
 
lattesweden said:
Magnar W said:
From what I have seen, the R5 electronic shutter is claimed to read out sensor data at 1/50 sec.
Click to expand...
I have seen some claims of about 1/60 read out on the R5.
I have also seen claims saying that the 1DXmkIII is also around 1/60.
Below is a video that shows the 1DXmkIII vs the A9II.
So if all these claims with assumptions are correct, then this is what the R5 will also look like:
Click to expand...
That actually seems like a pretty damn good performance by the Canon. Of course, it's hard to judge without knowing the exact frequency of the fan, but that is just slightly distorted. In this case it is obvious to notice but in many situations it will be perfectly usable.

For comparison, or maybe just for fun, take a look at the bizarre pictures my A7 III produces while using the e-shutter:



Mechanical shutter - the world is all right
Mechanical shutter - the world is all right



E-shutter (12bit compressed) - the laws of physics are being bent
E-shutter (12bit compressed) - the laws of physics are being bent



E-shutter (14bit uncompressed) - the structure of spacetime is disrupted
E-shutter (14bit uncompressed) - the structure of spacetime is disrupted
 
mujana said:
As I said very often, I don’t care about video at all. But to keep those hybrid shooters satisfied, I think they should do it IF it has :

- Global shutter

- True 8 stops IBIS

- unlimited 8k video recording without any overheating at all.

I don’t see that happen any time soon. So stick with those different models.
Click to expand...
Well, that does not make much sense to me as I don't think there is a single camera in this world, stills or cinema, that can do it all.
 
Magnar W said:
kolyy said:
And there is a whole world between those two extremes. The A7R III/IV have a very slow electronic shutter. But the A9 is more close to the mechanical shutter in the second picture.
Click to expand...
I have mentioned this in my response higher up in this tread, where I also posted an example of rolling shutter with mechanical shutter (a little less than what should be expected from the A9/A9II).
Member said:
The R5 is probably somewhere in between, not nearly as bad as the A7R III.
Click to expand...
Even if the Canon R5 electronic shutter reads out twice as fast as the A7rIII, it will be too slow for sport and action. The A7rIII is about 1/30 sec with comressed raw. From what I have seen, the R5 electronic shutter is claimed to read out sensor data at 1/50 sec.
Member said:
My question was, whether you would value a more usable electronic shutter than in the first picture, even if it was not as perfect as the mechanical one.
Click to expand...
For static subjects readout speed doesn't matter, but as soon as there are movements the pictures might be affected by this defect.
Click to expand...
Yes and faster movement is more affected and needs a faster shutter. Slower movement is less affected and allows a slower shutter. Do you actually know that even the mechanical shutter is not instantaneous? There is no magic speed, just a continuum of more or less affected pictures.
 
kolyy said:
lattesweden said:
Magnar W said:
From what I have seen, the R5 electronic shutter is claimed to read out sensor data at 1/50 sec.
Click to expand...
I have seen some claims of about 1/60 read out on the R5.
I have also seen claims saying that the 1DXmkIII is also around 1/60.
Below is a video that shows the 1DXmkIII vs the A9II.
So if all these claims with assumptions are correct, then this is what the R5 will also look like:
Click to expand...
That actually seems like a pretty damn good performance by the Canon. Of course, it's hard to judge without knowing the exact frequency of the fan, but that is just slightly distorted. In this case it is obvious to notice but in many situations it will be perfectly usable.

For comparison, or maybe just for fun, take a look at the bizarre pictures my A7 III produces while using the e-shutter:

Mechanical shutter - the world is all right
Mechanical shutter - the world is all right

E-shutter (12bit compressed) - the laws of physics are being bent
E-shutter (12bit compressed) - the laws of physics are being bent

E-shutter (14bit uncompressed) - the structure of spacetime is disrupted
E-shutter (14bit uncompressed) - the structure of spacetime is disrupted
Click to expand...
d8cd19a78d394f79b0cd90babb6ba476.jpg

There are many images from about 100 years ago that looks like this. This one is from a Grand Prix in 1912 from what I know. A mechanical shutter with slow curtains makes the effect just like we today have problems with our e-shutters. I have often wondered but never gotten around to try if one can reproduce this awesome look with an e-shutter in a modern car race.

--
Best regards
/Anders
----------------------------------------------------
Mirrorless, mirrorless on the wall, say which is the best camera of them all?
Some images:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64169208
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64221482
 
Last edited:
kolyy said:
Magnar W said:
kolyy said:
And there is a whole world between those two extremes. The A7R III/IV have a very slow electronic shutter. But the A9 is more close to the mechanical shutter in the second picture.
Click to expand...
I have mentioned this in my response higher up in this tread, where I also posted an example of rolling shutter with mechanical shutter (a little less than what should be expected from the A9/A9II).
kolyy said:
The R5 is probably somewhere in between, not nearly as bad as the A7R III.
Click to expand...
Even if the Canon R5 electronic shutter reads out twice as fast as the A7rIII, it will be too slow for sport and action. The A7rIII is about 1/30 sec with comressed raw. From what I have seen, the R5 electronic shutter is claimed to read out sensor data at 1/50 sec.
kolyy said:
My question was, whether you would value a more usable electronic shutter than in the first picture, even if it was not as perfect as the mechanical one.
Click to expand...
For static subjects readout speed doesn't matter, but as soon as there are movements the pictures might be affected by this defect.
Click to expand...
Yes and faster movement is more affected and needs a faster shutter. Slower movement is less affected and allows a slower shutter.
Click to expand...
Sure. Electronic shutter with the A7rIII, R5 and other cameras with "slow" readout speed are great for static and slow moving subjects, but can't be used for those freezing moment fast action.
kolyy said:
Do you actually know that even the mechanical shutter is not instantaneous?
Click to expand...
Yes, here is an example I made with fast panning camera, clearly showing this,



c579123894744f8ab9ec8fc061549f01.jpg
 
kolyy said:
mujana said:
As I said very often, I don’t care about video at all. But to keep those hybrid shooters satisfied, I think they should do it IF it has :

- Global shutter

- True 8 stops IBIS

- unlimited 8k video recording without any overheating at all.

I don’t see that happen any time soon. So stick with those different models.
Click to expand...
Well, that does not make much sense to me as I don't think there is a single camera in this world, stills or cinema, that can do it all.
Click to expand...
True.

But this thread was about whether Sony should try to make such a camera.

Canon claimed (in effect) that they had done so, but the result is a bit less than convincing.

Mujana was suggesting that Sony should not enter the water until they've figured out how to swim (in a way that Canon, presently, has not).
 
It seems like Canon is only chasing specs, while Sony is concentrating on making reliable cameras. I'm seeing lots of reports of overheating while shooting photos with the R5 over in the EOS R forums. The AP must have seen the writing on the wall. Interest in the a7s III far exceeds that of the R5. I'm guessing a recall is in the works.

--
https://daejeonchronicles.com
 
Last edited:
SilvanBromide said:
kolyy said:
mujana said:
As I said very often, I don’t care about video at all. But to keep those hybrid shooters satisfied, I think they should do it IF it has :

- Global shutter

- True 8 stops IBIS

- unlimited 8k video recording without any overheating at all.

I don’t see that happen any time soon. So stick with those different models.
Click to expand...
Well, that does not make much sense to me as I don't think there is a single camera in this world, stills or cinema, that can do it all.
Click to expand...
True.

But this thread was about whether Sony should try to make such a camera.

Canon claimed (in effect) that they had done so, but the result is a bit less than convincing.

Mujana was suggesting that Sony should not enter the water until they've figured out how to swim (in a way that Canon, presently, has not).
Click to expand...
Yes, I think Sony should recall the A7S III immediately, as it has none of those things. And I have just thrown my A7 III in the garbage, where it rightfully belongs, POS with no global shutter. Nobody should release any camera, until it can do unlimited 8K video with global shutter and 8 stop IBIS.

And just to remind you, this thread is not about whether Sony should try to make an 8K video camera. What I meant aby an "R5-like camera" is in the first post and 8K video was not a requirement.
 
Last edited:
jonpais said:
It seems like Canon is only chasing specs, while Sony is concentrating on making reliable cameras. I'm seeing lots of reports of overheating while shooting photos with the R5 over in the EOS R forums. The AP must have seen the writing on the wall. Interest in the a7s III far exceeds that of the R5. I'm guessing a recall is in the works.
Click to expand...
You see what you wish to see, I am afraid.
 
kolyy said:
jonpais said:
It seems like Canon is only chasing specs, while Sony is concentrating on making reliable cameras. I'm seeing lots of reports of overheating while shooting photos with the R5 over in the EOS R forums. The AP must have seen the writing on the wall. Interest in the a7s III far exceeds that of the R5. I'm guessing a recall is in the works.
Click to expand...
You see what you wish to see, I am afraid.
Click to expand...
Well, the Canon R5 and R6 overheating is pretty well documented, also from Canon. Heat builds up and can't escape, so that the camera is blocked for a long period, no matter the environmental temperature. Must be frustrating, even for amateur use.
 
kolyy said:
SilvanBromide said:
kolyy said:
mujana said:
As I said very often, I don’t care about video at all. But to keep those hybrid shooters satisfied, I think they should do it IF it has :

- Global shutter

- True 8 stops IBIS

- unlimited 8k video recording without any overheating at all.

I don’t see that happen any time soon. So stick with those different models.
Click to expand...
Well, that does not make much sense to me as I don't think there is a single camera in this world, stills or cinema, that can do it all.
Click to expand...
True.

But this thread was about whether Sony should try to make such a camera.

Canon claimed (in effect) that they had done so, but the result is a bit less than convincing.

Mujana was suggesting that Sony should not enter the water until they've figured out how to swim (in a way that Canon, presently, has not).
Click to expand...
Yes, I think Sony should recall the A7S III immediately, as it has none of those things. And I have just thrown my A7 III in the garbage, where it rightfully belongs, POS with no global shutter. Nobody should release any camera, until it can do unlimited 8K video with global shutter and 8 stop IBIS.
Click to expand...
Did you deliberately miss the point for comedic effect, or was there a reading comprehension issue?

As stated, "this thread was about whether Sony should try to make such a camera". Such a camera being (as in your thread title) an "R5-like camera".

Neither the a7Siii nor the a7iii (nor any other existing Sony model) purport to be an R5-like camera, so the fact that they don't measure up to criteria for a successful competitor to the R5 is kinda moot.

Except as a flimsy justification for your frenzy of misdirected sarcasm, apparently...
kolyy said:
And just to remind you, this thread is not about whether Sony should try to make an 8K video camera. What I meant aby an "R5-like camera" is in the first post and 8K video was not a requirement.
Click to expand...
Sure.

You think a camera could be considered "R5-like" without 8K video capability. Got that.

Mujana doesn't, and I happen to agree with him.

If Sony wants to try to make the same play that Canon has just attempted, they should (in my opinion) do it properly or not at all. You're free to think otherwise, as apparently you do, but I respectfully suggest that you're mistaken.
 
SilvanBromide said:
kolyy said:
SilvanBromide said:
kolyy said:
mujana said:
As I said very often, I don’t care about video at all. But to keep those hybrid shooters satisfied, I think they should do it IF it has :

- Global shutter

- True 8 stops IBIS

- unlimited 8k video recording without any overheating at all.

I don’t see that happen any time soon. So stick with those different models.
Click to expand...
Well, that does not make much sense to me as I don't think there is a single camera in this world, stills or cinema, that can do it all.
Click to expand...
True.

But this thread was about whether Sony should try to make such a camera.

Canon claimed (in effect) that they had done so, but the result is a bit less than convincing.

Mujana was suggesting that Sony should not enter the water until they've figured out how to swim (in a way that Canon, presently, has not).
Click to expand...
Yes, I think Sony should recall the A7S III immediately, as it has none of those things. And I have just thrown my A7 III in the garbage, where it rightfully belongs, POS with no global shutter. Nobody should release any camera, until it can do unlimited 8K video with global shutter and 8 stop IBIS.
Click to expand...
Did you deliberately miss the point for comedic effect, or was there a reading comprehension issue?

As stated, "this thread was about whether Sony should try to make such a camera". Such a camera being (as in your thread title) an "R5-like camera".

Neither the a7Siii nor the a7iii (nor any other existing Sony model) purport to be an R5-like camera, so the fact that they don't measure up to criteria for a successful competitor to the R5 is kinda moot.

Except as a flimsy justification for your frenzy of misdirected sarcasm, apparently...
SilvanBromide said:
And just to remind you, this thread is not about whether Sony should try to make an 8K video camera. What I meant aby an "R5-like camera" is in the first post and 8K video was not a requirement.
Click to expand...
Sure.

You think a camera could be considered "R5-like" without 8K video capability. Got that.

Mujana doesn't, and I happen to agree with him.

If Sony wants to try to make the same play that Canon has just attempted, they should (in my opinion) do it properly or not at all. You're free to think otherwise, as apparently you do, but I respectfully suggest that you're mistaken.
Click to expand...
 
jonpais said:
It seems like Canon is only chasing specs, while Sony is concentrating on making reliable cameras. I'm seeing lots of reports of overheating while shooting photos with the R5 over in the EOS R forums. The AP must have seen the writing on the wall. Interest in the a7s III far exceeds that of the R5. I'm guessing a recall is in the works.
Click to expand...
Weren't there issues with the A9 and still shooting as well? Something nags my brain that Sony had some issues in that regard as well.

In any case, reading about some sports photographer who keeps bursting the camera in hot weather, I wouldn't wonder if it eventually comes to an overheating point as well.

I see the R5 as an "unlocked" piece of gear. Means you have access to all what it can do, and you can run it to its limits short before self-destruction, so to speak. That puts more responsibility on the user, but it offers to go full out for the moments where it is needed. The assumption probably is that these are not happening that often, and more normal usage scenarios are handled just fine and reliably.

We will see. Over time all the limitations will be better known, i.e. the final verdict is still open. I'm also sure that a lot of wonderful images will be created with it despite all this, and that is what counts in the end.
 
Sounds like you are suggesting a Sony A9R. This has been discussed before. I have no interest in the video functions, but would appreciate a high res camera with improved AF. I don't need higher frame rates then what is on the A7R now. With that said, I am not against your line of thinking, but with improvements coming in every generation, I'd give an A9R a look - particularly as I am starting to play with the idea of getting more seriously into birding - but the A7RV will most likely be my next camera.
 
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