The problem is weak laws over here. The US, Canada and I believe Mexico, has these firmware updates from Epson that blocks third-party ink cartridges. Over in the EU, China and other countries they can't do that and third-party cartridges will work.
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New P700 and P900 : Explicit Note about aftermarket inks ?
- Thread starter mikling
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I'm surprised that China has strong consumer laws. I would imagine every product is what is claimed and all counterfeits as well as dangerous copies have been removed from the marketplace. This is a remarkable change in a short time. I never would have thought.
allofthemweretaken
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Why buy a semi-pro/pro -printer and then use 3rd party inks?
To me that's like putting cheap no-name tires on an old muscle car and complain about their performance and it's big block V8's fuel consumption.
To me that's like putting cheap no-name tires on an old muscle car and complain about their performance and it's big block V8's fuel consumption.
These printers use 1.5pl drops vs 4pl in previous models. This requires micro-filtration of the ink to reduce particles size, otherwise that can cause a permanent clog. This means inks, developed fornolder Epsons may not be compatible and are potentially unsafe.
You have been warned.
You have been warned.
Because some third party inks produce results which are comparable at a fraction of the cost. With refillable carts it is also possible to use inexpensive OEM ink reclaimed for larger cartridges. Finally the ability to use refillables means you can aspirate cleaning solutions in order to safely store the printer when it will not be used for weeks or months.
Many people are using OEM inks from larger printers to cut cost. I use Canon pro-1 inks in canon pro-10. Saved quite a lot money over the years.
Philip Eihuyar
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I agree in the OEM superiority -in longevity- but third party inks [owl and PC inks] color matching is excellent. So, what would be the use of a printer that prints very inexpensively but the prints fade within a couple of years? Printing advertising notices, prints that are not meant to be archival but are needed in volume. So, just as an example, you have a Canon Pro 100 and a Canon Pro 10. Both 13" printers. One is using PC ink and printing in volume using PC inks - a fraction of what OEM inks would cost for volume printing. But the second printer that is meant for weddings, professional clients that will expect longevity as well as perfect color would be using OEM. The Pro 100 costs next to nothing and you don't need to switch out your cartridges depending on the needs of the client - because you have both inks in separate printers.
I've been reading statements like that for Epson's consumer printers for some time.
Others have reported differently, but when Epson offers up software updates the firmware option is always greyed out (Mac). There is no option to NOT take the firmware update, so I never update any Epson software.
On these consumer printers (WorkForce), every week or two I will get a not-recognized cart message. One has to remove the 3rd party cartridge and reset it; sometimes more than once. But I have never been locked out.
On Canons, I never receive such messages using 3rd party $1/cart cartridges. In fact, they are reported as genuine. (TS9020; MG6220)
I'm interested in the new Epson P700 or Canon Pro-300 (Thanks, Keith, for the reviews), but am leaning to Canon because my impression is that Canon presses less hard on locking out 3rd party supplies???
I will not be buying any newer consumer printers. I have enough for the mid-term future.
Others have reported differently, but when Epson offers up software updates the firmware option is always greyed out (Mac). There is no option to NOT take the firmware update, so I never update any Epson software.
On these consumer printers (WorkForce), every week or two I will get a not-recognized cart message. One has to remove the 3rd party cartridge and reset it; sometimes more than once. But I have never been locked out.
On Canons, I never receive such messages using 3rd party $1/cart cartridges. In fact, they are reported as genuine. (TS9020; MG6220)
I'm interested in the new Epson P700 or Canon Pro-300 (Thanks, Keith, for the reviews), but am leaning to Canon because my impression is that Canon presses less hard on locking out 3rd party supplies???
I will not be buying any newer consumer printers. I have enough for the mid-term future.
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I do not have any scientific way of testing and verifying the quite positive claims for longevity of the Cone inks. So I did what I could to achieve a level of assurance. I made a couple of identical prints of an image with lots of colors including some pale colors. One print when into storage in an archival box. The other I put about 12" from a 100 watt bulb that is on about 12-16 hours a day. After about 4 months, I traveled for a 3 months and the print went into a west facing window pointing towards the outside. When I returned the print went back to the 12" distance from the light bulb. The print remained there about another year. So it received about 18 months of harsh bright lighting. I could not tell the control print from the test print and neither could my wife. That amount of light was equivalent to decades of normal display with typical household lighting and acrylic glazing.
The Cone inks are pigments and also nanocoated to prevent clumping and deter precipitation. I would only want to use 3rd party inks if the results are excellent including longevity. I would avoid dyes and inks known to fade. I would also avoid buying a printer that cannot be modified for refillable cartridges and I would want to make sure that I could buy high quality 3rd party inks.
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Jim, aka camperjim
Special Places Photography
This site contains fine art photographs. Most are available for sale as prints either plain, matted, or framed. Subjects include nature, flowers, and landscapes. Many of the landscapes are from the major American National Parks, including Death Valley, Yellowstone, Arches, Canyonlands...
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This started many years after Epson lost the class action lawsuit. It appears that they were already putting DRM tidbits already. This essentially is the key lockout on the P800. This indicates Epson can at anytime determine whether or not after market chips are being used. The only way this can be done is with some sort of digital signature on the chip. The P800 routine was stepped up with this, as well as with serial number AND ink level. This was kept in non accessible NVRAM on the motherboard. If a tank is seen a consecutive time with a higher ink level than it had retained in its memory. If was not accepted. The assumption here is that it was tampered with.
On the P800, if you had followed the slow tit for tat updates on the North American model, the last entry point was the firmware. Entry to the firmware had not been blocked as was traditional on printers. The only aspect left is whether they can both provide firmware updates as well as restrict it so that only "genuine" Epson apps can access the firmware. I think this is easily viable provided the printer is communicating with an Epson server. Then this is not a big deal. Chipless solutions is then blocked. Will Epson do something like this? They could and I think they will.
On the P800, if you had followed the slow tit for tat updates on the North American model, the last entry point was the firmware. Entry to the firmware had not been blocked as was traditional on printers. The only aspect left is whether they can both provide firmware updates as well as restrict it so that only "genuine" Epson apps can access the firmware. I think this is easily viable provided the printer is communicating with an Epson server. Then this is not a big deal. Chipless solutions is then blocked. Will Epson do something like this? They could and I think they will.
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1,5pl. How many pigment particles are actually in that droplet? Let's keep it simple...lots and lots. Droplet size is mega sized relative to pigment particles, Pigment particles can be filtered out to a specific size.
Grinding down pigment particles to a specific size is not an issue for quality aftermarket inks.
Grinding down pigment particles to a specific size is not an issue for quality aftermarket inks.
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allofthemweretaken
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"Comparable" - even longetivity/lifespan of the print? I thought that was one of the reasons for buying ink from the printer manufacturer? At least to me it is.
Once put into bottles, coagulation also becomes an issue with pigment inks. But again - even though there is a grinding process that should produce average particle size, the process on its own may not fully guarantee that all produced particles will be below certain size. This is why filtering is important. And if the filter size is calculated for 4pl drop volume, there is a chance to get a permanent clog.
Finer filters are more expensive and have lower flow, so you have a reason that some producers may overlook this.
Comparable in quality but not in cost. If you have no issue with the high prices for OEM ink cartridges then there is no reason for you to consider an alternative.
"One of the reasons". And whose reasons are these?
allofthemweretaken
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A few others are:
#no need to worry about compatibility or clogging because of lack of compatibility (ofcourse there might be clogging issues anyways but at least then I know it's not because of bad ink from a 3rd party)
#no need to worry about warranty void
#I expect 0 variation between batches (maybe foolish)
#no need to worry about prints fading since paper and inks are made for each other - at least it's as good as it can possibly be
All good thoughts.
We each do what we are comfortable with.
If I am selling a print, I believe in OEM ink, either new cartridge or careful refill if possible from a larger cartridge of the same OEM ink.
Otherwise, OEM is simply too expensive for some users, but we still want to enjoy printing.
We each do what we are comfortable with.
If I am selling a print, I believe in OEM ink, either new cartridge or careful refill if possible from a larger cartridge of the same OEM ink.
Otherwise, OEM is simply too expensive for some users, but we still want to enjoy printing.
As many as these topics go round and round, the missing link is that neither Canon nor Epson really give us the necessary details (about which so many are speculating) to give us informed decisions.
I may be wrong, but it seems we know a lot more about the nitty-gritty of even more complex automobiles than we do these printers.
I may be wrong, but it seems we know a lot more about the nitty-gritty of even more complex automobiles than we do these printers.
enduser
Senior Member
The OEM inks in my HP Design Jet are pigment black and dye color. Any printing using color sees rapid fading in well lighted premises. Changing to 3rd party pigment color inks gave a huge non-fade extension to color prints.
Probably not as long as HP pigments, but much longer than OEM dye.
Probably not as long as HP pigments, but much longer than OEM dye.
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NAwlins Contrarian
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By any chance can you cite to the judgment where you say Epson lost a class-action lawsuit? Or even link to a reputable media report about it? I'd be very interested to see what there is to it, and would report back here what I found. Thanks!
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