News from Pentax

APSC, DSLR, YAWN.

We expect to go to our corporate graves making dSLRS. We will not attempt to make a Pentax MILC.

We do not expect to catch up in AF performance, nor to keep up in resolution, framerate or dynamic range.

We will rely on brand loyalty, good UI and the marketing of intangible subjective benefits to keep afloat.

The title should have been "Interpreted".

FingerPainter said:

We expect to go to our corporate graves making dSLRS. We will not attempt to make a Pentax MILC.

We do not expect to catch up in AF performance, nor to keep up in resolution, framerate or dynamic range.

We will rely on brand loyalty, good UI and the marketing of intangible subjective benefits to keep afloat.

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Kharan said:

dnscott645 said:

Why 4K video, 1080 is good enough for You Tube or Facebook.

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No. Seriously, just no. Oversampled 1080 (from 4K) is the minimum I'm willing to settle for.

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The once or twice I have used the video on my Pentax, it looked great on You Tube.

Kharan said:

Kharan said:

DSLR is a poor format for video anyway; mirrorless much better for that. Pentax is right as a small company to just make the best DSLR stills cameras available.

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But 4K video is almost a basic feature these days. I've come to accept that Pentax will never have cutting-edge video features (or even half that); but Ricoh are making great strides in that department, and the added value for the potential (future) Pentax userbase could be critical to position the brand as a worthy bastion of DSLRs.

TL;DR - Pentax has to start offering this feature in future models to pad the spec sheet, even if it sees little use.

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If 4K doesn't compromise the ability to shoot great stills, then add it, but adding something to a camera just to pad the spec sheet is rather useless and is usually poorly executed.

Kharan said:

Kharan said:

There is a good market out there for retro products. Pentax would be best to make two lighter weight K-1 models: one with a high megapixel sensor (42 mp plus) and one with a low megapixel (16 mp to 24 mp) low light monster. These cameras would be totally design for still photography. The 1080 video would be there in case you want quick video to post on You Tube or Facebook. They could also do the same for APSC.

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I don't think so. Experience shows that it isn't so. Unless Ricoh/Pentax want to go the "German Way", like Leica, and start offering no-compromise stills lenses and bodies that cost $8,000 (good luck with that), they need to remain competitive on features versus the other Japanese makers. The Nikon Df flopped hard, showing that retro for retro's sake is a bad move. Fujifilm offer an excellent suite of video features at an affordable price, and their brand is growing in a contracting market - they have not only the retro aesthetic, but also a value proposition. Olympus also did retro fairly well, but they came with too little, too late on the video front... and now, their Imaging Division is up for sale.

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Leica is a good example of a niche market company. They don't try to be everything and do what they do very well. The Nikon Df was a good idea poorly executed. Fujifilm has stayed out of the out of the full frame market and make good retro-style APSC & medium format cameras. I have an Olympus and bought it instead of Panasonic because it was better for stills. It is a great travel camera. If Ricoh/Pentax wants to be a successful niche company and do DSLRs then concentrate on what DSLRs are best at, still photography. Pentaprisms and mirrors are useless for video. If video really important to you, Then I would invest in Canon, Panasonic, or Sony since these are companies with extensive video experience.

dpthoughts said:

dpthoughts said:

Pentax principles

2.Our goal is to produce cameras with the power to capture images that allow for direct communication with the subject.

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This is a hidden but strong hint, that they will go mirrorless

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That would be a godsend, frankly. Alex Sarbu will likely roll his eyes about this, as he has before, but a mirrorless K1000 would be very much appreciated.

I can't say enough good things about the ergonomics, which is why I'd ask for such a body. I used my film version for years and loved its simplicity. Keep it K mount.

If Pentax, as a Ricoh subbrand, is going the Leica route, that would at the very least help underwrite the nostalgia factor a la the German firm's digital M bodies.

I'm a working journalist and imagine I'd get a lot of use out of it.

Mark Ransom said:

dpthoughts said:

Mark Ransom said:

So, shellnut version, "we are doubling down on what we've always been doing - making enthusiast Pentax dSLRs for a dwindling number of Pentax enthusiasts."

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That is hardly unique to Pentax though, every camera maker is going through the same. Cell phones are wiping out most people's excuse for owning a dedicated camera in the first place, and the differences between camera brands are becoming smaller.

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Yes, it's really just professionals who are buying cameras now. Though I will note that amongst the press, the allure of using mobiles instead of cameras, has faded. You see a lot more cameras now, at political events and press conferences, than ten years ago. There are a lot of Lumix bodies, I assume for the video, alongside Olympus and Fuji. The only DSLRs you see are Canons.

OpticsEngineer said:

"My only (personal) hope is that that that "enthusiast" does not only mean $1500-$2000 big lenses but also $800-$1000 quality lenses. My $0.02."

That is my hope as well. Anything over $1000 is pretty hard for me to justify, especially compared to other uses for the money like car repairs or college tuition for the kds.

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Hope? Did you forget about the D FA* 50mm f/1.4 already? That's still top level lens, yet fits into the $800-$1000 bracket.

Alex

Richard Murdey said:

dpthoughts said:

Richard Murdey said:

Pentax principles

2.Our goal is to produce cameras with the power to capture images that allow for direct communication with the subject.

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This is a hidden but strong hint, that they will go mirrorless

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The opposite, definitely. If you take the five points in total, the whole endeavour reads as a love letter to the pentaprism. - "yeah, mirrorless is better, but dSLRs are cooler"

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And where exactly did you see "mirrorless is better"? It isn't even true, both mirrorless and DSLRs have advantages and disadvantages with no overall winner.

Richard Murdey said:

As the gap in capability continues to widen, however, the number of people willing to compromise and buy Pentax has fallen and will continue to fall.

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We shouldn't talk about capabilities before seeing the next generation of Pentax cameras.

Alex

Richard Murdey said:

Richard Murdey wrote

Richard Murdey said:

It may be worth asking, WHY the number of Pentax enthusiasts is dwindling, though. There is a reason for that, like for anything else in the photo universe?

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That's an easy one. I 'll even give you an alphanumerical hint: A7, A9, Z6, Z7, Z50, R5, R6 &c ...

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I'm a Nikon user but 2 years ago I used a KP for a few months. I liked the camera a lot. I really did. I used an old Pentax 16-45/4 and a 55-300 PLM.

I shoot landscapes and street. I like using zoomlenses because they give me more flexibility to make a composition. But there was no standard fast zoomlens available... the Pentax 16 - 50/2.8 is old and very unreliable with its SDM problems. It also a has big problem with flare...no modern coatings.

And the Pentax 50 - 250/4 I was interested in is optically a great lens but also has possible SDM problems. I was really disappointed and finally sold the KP.

How can you attract new users with a system like this? Why were these lenses never updated? It's a pity and I think it has cost Pentax dearly.

James O'Neill said:

• Pentax will be Ricoh's SLR brand and won't try to be anything else.
• If you feel you are an SLR person and that other vendors aren't meeting your needs, join us.
• If SLRs are completely wiped out or we can't attract a big enough share of the people who want an SLR, the Pentax name will go, and if Ricoh makes other kinds of cameras they won't be named Pentax .

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And that, as far as it goes, is fair. With Canon and Nikon both clearly backing their new mounts 100%, and Sony and Fuji mirrorless only, it's nice to at least one company sticking up for SLR as something with intrinsic worth.

It could very well be that soon Pentax is the only enthusiast dSLR left in development. (weird, eh?)

By being the last one left, Pentax brand gains a cachet, and it might just be enough to let them go aspirational/upmarket where people buy Pentax because its cool, not just because, you know, astrotracer woo hoo!

The cameras will have to be better though. Less generic, more classic. I'd also suggest they need to get lighter and more petite, more like the 70's SLRs, but that may be too much of an ask.

Danny vange said:

Danny vange said:

Richard Murdey wrote

Danny vange said:

It may be worth asking, WHY the number of Pentax enthusiasts is dwindling, though. There is a reason for that, like for anything else in the photo universe?

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That's an easy one. I 'll even give you an alphanumerical hint: A7, A9, Z6, Z7, Z50, R5, R6 &c ...

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I'm a Nikon user but 2 years ago I used a KP for a few months. I liked the camera a lot. I really did. I used an old Pentax 16-45/4 and a 55-300 PLM.

I shoot landscapes and street. I like using zoomlenses because they give me more flexibility to make a composition. But there was no standard fast zoomlens available... the Pentax 16 - 50/2.8 is old and very unreliable with its SDM problems. It also a has big problem with flare...no modern coatings.

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A replacement for the 16-50/2.8 is currently on the roadmap, so it will appear probably by the end of 2022 at the latest, I would imagine.

Danny vange said:

And the Pentax 50 - 250/4 I was interested in is optically a great lens but also has possible SDM problems. I was really disappointed and finally sold the KP.

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My understanding is that the 60-250, being newer, is less affected by the SDM problems, or perhaps had a silent revision at some point. The 50/1.4 is also apparently fairly safe. I'd have to read up on this again, but there is a failsafe mode where if the SDM fails, the lens reverts to screwdrive. There are also firmware tweaks if you want to run the SDM lens in screwdrive mode permanently. Applies to all DA* lenses, but not to the 17-70mm (which isn't a DA* and has no screwdrive mode iirc).

Danny vange said:

How can you attract new users with a system like this? Why were these lenses never updated? It's a pity and I think it has cost Pentax dearly.

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Pentax sells lower volume, so the pace of model replacement also isn't the same. It also seems to me that for a while, they had an emphasis on having the best line-up of APS-C standard zooms, so for a while, you would see 16-45, 17-70, 18-55, 16-85, 18-135 all being available concurrently.

I understand you are very focused on constant f/2.8 aperture (or f/4 for teles, perhaps). Did you try the 70-200/2.8? Also, the 70-210/4 is just around the corner (pre-order is open, availability some time later this year, don't recall out of the top of my head).

Also, the 16-85 is optically very good, but it's a variable aperture design.

Been fairly new to the Pentax brand, watching the video I'm been told about the Pentax philosophy on their ideals about taking the photo. There seems to be a history from Pentax about the experience of using their cameras. Probably much in the way Leica talks about their cameras. It seems slow and steady is there thing.

I've come from Olympus and at the time when they went mirrorless I didn't like the new camera and the K1 felt just my old camera (E5), it even is the same size and similar in appearance. It felt great in the hands and I was moving to full frame.

Now from my experience with the new range of full frame mirrorless cameras. The only camera that comes close to been comfortable to hold is the Panasonic S1s. The Sony, the Z Nikons and the Canon cameras are uncomfortable to hold and don't feel like I would want to pick one up to use. They're come out with smaller bodies but the lenses are no smaller and in Canon's case they are huge.

Technology has moved along, and the new mirrorless cameras may focus a bit better, have faster frame rates and do video better but I don't care. My K1 is a joy to handle, it doesn't overheat, it has little noise and high dynamic range. The new R5 costs nearly 3 times the cost of a K1 in Australia and the RF lenses are up there as well. The Pentax cameras fit in the hand and are a joy to use.

So what tool you need to do the job at hand go forth and buy it and get the job done. The old adage the buying the best golf clubs doesn't always make you the best golfer. The same goes with cameras.

I don't think whingeing to Pentax will make things happen any quicker, but they maybe listening. Perhaps they can make Ricoh the mirrorless brand and have the best of both worlds.

Richard Murdey said:

James O'Neill said:

• Pentax will be Ricoh's SLR brand and won't try to be anything else.
• If you feel you are an SLR person and that other vendors aren't meeting your needs, join us.
• If SLRs are completely wiped out or we can't attract a big enough share of the people who want an SLR, the Pentax name will go, and if Ricoh makes other kinds of cameras they won't be named Pentax .

Click to expand...

And that, as far as it goes, is fair. With Canon and Nikon both clearly backing their new mounts 100%, and Sony and Fuji mirrorless only, it's nice to at least one company sticking up for SLR as something with intrinsic worth.

It could very well be that soon Pentax is the only enthusiast dSLR left in development. (weird, eh?)

By being the last one left, Pentax brand gains a cachet, and it might just be enough to let them go aspirational/upmarket where people buy Pentax because its cool, not just because, you know, astrotracer woo hoo!

The cameras will have to be better though. Less generic, more classic. I'd also suggest they need to get lighter and more petite, more like the 70's SLRs, but that may be too much of an ask.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is, because you need extra space for the SR (IBIS) mechanism. So it will always be thicker (in terms of depth) than a film era SLR.

If you were to leave that out, you could probably get close, at least with appropriate passive cooling designed in.

timo said:

A lot of it was vague. And I'm not sure they are wise to dismiss mirrorless as a route forward - I moved from Pentax DSLRs to M4/3 partly for the convenience of a live EVF.

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I'm not sure m4/3 and route forward should be together, in the same phrase... ;-)

Mirrorless can be a dead end.

Alex

My own "translation" follows.

FingerPainter said:

We expect to go to our corporate graves making dSLRS. We will not attempt to make a Pentax MILC.

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We will not even attempt to be a successful, surviving camera division by going MILC like Samsung and Olympus.

FingerPainter said:

We do not expect to catch up in AF performance, nor to keep up in resolution, framerate or dynamic range.

Click to expand...

Yeah, the new APS-C flagship we're working on? It's a hoax.

FingerPainter said:

We will rely on brand loyalty, good UI and the marketing of intangible subjective benefits to keep afloat.

Click to expand...

Because we're not making products. The D FA* 85mm? A hoax as well. What do you mean, users got theirs?

Alex

Danny vange said:

Danny vange said:

Richard Murdey wrote

Danny vange said:

It may be worth asking, WHY the number of Pentax enthusiasts is dwindling, though. There is a reason for that, like for anything else in the photo universe?

Click to expand...

That's an easy one. I 'll even give you an alphanumerical hint: A7, A9, Z6, Z7, Z50, R5, R6 &c ...

Click to expand...

I'm a Nikon user but 2 years ago I used a KP for a few months. I liked the camera a lot. I really did. I used an old Pentax 16-45/4 and a 55-300 PLM.

I shoot landscapes and street. I like using zoomlenses because they give me more flexibility to make a composition. But there was no standard fast zoomlens available... the Pentax 16 - 50/2.8 is old and very unreliable with its SDM problems. It also a has big problem with flare...

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I don't remember the 16-50 being particularly prone to flare, considering I'm pampered by Pentax in this regard...

How about the HD DA 20-40 f/2.8-4 Limited as an alternative?

Danny vange said:

no modern coatings.

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SMC was among the best when the 16-50 was released. Optical design matters, too...

Danny vange said:

And the Pentax 50 - 250/4 I was interested in is optically a great lens but also has possible SDM problems. I was really disappointed and finally sold the KP.

Click to expand...

Disappointed in what, in possible problems?

Danny vange said:

How can you attract new users with a system like this? Why were these lenses never updated? It's a pity and I think it has cost Pentax dearly.

Click to expand...

The explanation is likely long and requires inside info few would have. Fortunately, things are looking better:

- no old-style (micromotor) SDM lens since 2008. DC has proven reliable, PLM is very fast (but can only drive light focus group), ring-type SDM is here and works as expected.

- a new DA* 16-50mm f/2.8 PLM is expected for the next year. Yes, with a PLM drive so it should focus very fast.

- there's still a lot to do, but they did release quite a few good to excellent lenses these years

- the new APS-C flagship should be released this year, and it should be a significant advancement.

Alex

Breakfastographer 2 said:

Richard Murdey said:

James O'Neill said:

• Pentax will be Ricoh's SLR brand and won't try to be anything else.
• If you feel you are an SLR person and that other vendors aren't meeting your needs, join us.
• If SLRs are completely wiped out or we can't attract a big enough share of the people who want an SLR, the Pentax name will go, and if Ricoh makes other kinds of cameras they won't be named Pentax .

Click to expand...

And that, as far as it goes, is fair. With Canon and Nikon both clearly backing their new mounts 100%, and Sony and Fuji mirrorless only, it's nice to at least one company sticking up for SLR as something with intrinsic worth.

It could very well be that soon Pentax is the only enthusiast dSLR left in development. (weird, eh?)

By being the last one left, Pentax brand gains a cachet, and it might just be enough to let them go aspirational/upmarket where people buy Pentax because its cool, not just because, you know, astrotracer woo hoo!

The cameras will have to be better though. Less generic, more classic. I'd also suggest they need to get lighter and more petite, more like the 70's SLRs, but that may be too much of an ask.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is, because you need extra space for the SR (IBIS) mechanism. So it will always be thicker (in terms of depth) than a film era SLR.

If you were to leave that out, you could probably get close, at least with appropriate passive cooling designed in.

Click to expand...

It's not only the SR platform; the sensor itself, circuit board and back LCD - they all add to the camera's thickness.

Then, the modern camera has a large battery, autofocus, integrated "winder" (except for film advancement of course)...

OTOH, except for its mirror box, a KP has about the same thickness as an X-T4:

https://camerasize.com/compare/#706,841

Alex

DougOB said:

Richard Murdey said:

Tom Lusk said:

DougOB said:

So, shellnut version, "we are doubling down on what we've always been doing - making enthusiast Pentax dSLRs for a dwindling number of Pentax enthusiasts."

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Richard - you could have saved the company the time and (minimal) effort they put towards saying virtually nothing.

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I know, right? It was unusually meaningless drivel even by the standards of marketing fluff.

It's not statement of vision if you are already doing what it is you set out to do in your vision statement. That's just beautifying the status quo.

Insofar as it means anything - I think it is best taken as a public declaration of intent to take Pentax out of the common camera market and position it as a lifestyle/luxury/aspirational photography brand aka "pull a Leica".

That's not a stupid idea, and I and many other amateur pundits have for years predicted they'd need to do exactly that to survive.

Maybe I'm reaching here, but maybe just maybe I detect a hint of contrition, ie. that some of the cameras they've put out in the past have been company vanity projects designed to stand out, rather than cameras people would really enjoy using.

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Possibly.

The recent history of "Pentax" included different owners with different ideas. So we should not expect the K-New to be available 53 shades of ugly colours like the ~K-50s.

So is the future "something" along the lines of cameras targeted at photography enthusiasts (i.e., not amateurs nor specific professionals with very specific needs). And I use the word "enthusiasts" knowing that some will not like it.

To me this does sound somewhat like the Pentax "brand" and what got me here. Not cheap crap and not stupidly expensive "professional" gear for those who actually need it or for posers.

My only (personal) hope is that that that "enthusiast" does not only mean $1500-$2000 big lenses but also $800-$1000 quality lenses. My $0.02.

Doug

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To me this does sound somewhat like the Pentax "brand" and what got me here. Not cheap crap and not stupidly expensive "professional" gear for those who actually need it or for posers. So not people who buy the new DFA* 85mm and use it to photograph their cat's whiskers? ;-)

I know there wasn't any groundbreaking product announcements, but for some reason I find it disturbing that DPR can find front page space for a bug gopro and crazy startup companies that just want to rob gullible people, but no mentions of an interview with the top exec at Ricoh.

mxx said:

dpthoughts said:

mxx said:

Pentax principles

2.Our goal is to produce cameras with the power to capture images that allow for direct communication with the subject.

Click to expand...

This is a hidden but strong hint, that they will go mirrorless

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Don't think so. They feel that an optical viewfinger is still the best way for direct communication with the subject. That's my take.

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I agree, my most pleasing experience with cameras is with my Mamiya RB76. When I look through that viewfinder, it's though I'm inside the camera walking around the scene, there is nothing between me and the subject. I simply do not get that sense of engagement when the subject is mediated by a screen, either on the rear of a camera as in live view or in an EVF. It's as though there is not only a screen for viewing the subject but also a screen between me and the subject. Now it's true that the smaller image in my K5 and KP, are far from as good as the larger viewing image in the RB67 but it is still a vastly more satisfying experience than other forms of EVF viewfinder or live view screens.