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D2H Samples Gallery In Tokyo

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Neil Crick said:
Highlights and generally, well-exposed areas looked good in the
colour shots. They had some plane to plane shots that looked very
nice. To play Devil's Advocate for a while, that could be due to
the noise-reduction working more effectively in those areas
Click to expand...
IMHO it is not noise reduction; but de-mosaicing and color space convertion working smoother and more effectivly in highlights and midtones, than in shadows.
 
Greg,

I keep reading 'delays'. What is delayed? The Nikon press release on this site says the D2H will be released 4th Quarter 2003. No specific date. I appreciated Neil's well considered post. That said, I for one am not rushing to judgement on the D2H (no offense Neil) - keeping in mind the D2H is what it is.....sports and photojournalism.

I believe Nikon set the bar very high in their July press release and comments from Richard LoPinto of Nikon USA pushed the bar higher. We shall see if the image quality, in particular noise, is what they claim, but we all agree it is a fine camera with major advances - now let's be patient until there are full proudction models (final firmware + hardware) in more hands. On another point I will hardly let digital website reviews determine my purchase decision - I would not own Nikon if I let this site's reviews directed my purchase decisions.

Cheers.
greg n said:
Neil Crick said:
Greetings

For Tokyo based souls, the Nikon Salon in Shinjuku is having
pre-launch seminars on the D2H (need to reserve) and they have a
gallery with 30 or so big prints (20"+) that's on until the 20th. I
just spent 30 mins going around the gallery and pushing my nose
right up to the prints, and for those who may be curious, here are
my thoughts; random as ever.

Firstly, don't plonk your money down until you've seen a full
workout by Phil. My overall impression is that this camera is aimed
at PJs whose priority is to get the shot, rather than worry about
image quality. Personally, I think noise and colour range are going
to be the biggest issues.

Without being able to compare directly to film grain at a similar
ISO, I'd be tempted to say the D2H is a LOT more noisy. Shadow
areas at 200 show intrusive grain, enough to take attention from
other areas on what are otherwise excellent photos. Sports shots at
640 and 800+ showed grain like cannonballs, and was more
noticeable on the B&W shots than the colour ones.

Colour was very good and well saturated, except for reds and neons.
Reds seem plastic and become single shade with no gradient (like
old Sony cameras), while neons too lose realism. Whites looked
beautiful and showed great detail. One shot of an F1 car in bright
sunshine showed squished bugs on a white cowling, while the wheel
spinner in shadow, showed the bearing clip and race.

In many indoor shots, shadow colours are clipped, meaning that
gradient colours dissolved into horrible blocks and bands, with a
green cast reminiscent of underexposed film.

It also seems like some agressive anti-noise is going on too. Some
indoor gymnastic shots at around 640, showed that indiviudal
strands of hair were just smeared and blocked, as were different
shades in the faces. They looked very poor, and reminded me of the
Fuji noise reduction effects. I got the feeling that the sensor
ramped up the gain aggressively when shadows were present. One shot
of a silver Mustang was lovely over the top of the plane, with
great colous and contrast. However, the underside around the intake
and wing root were in shadow, and the noise just leapt out.

Contradictorily, in some shots the dynamic range was impressive
with highlight and shadow detail in some air to air shots of a dark
plane in bright sunshine. Beautifully exposed.

It looks like the white balance system dealt well with the indoor
sports, with natural-looking colours, except for reds, neons and
shadows.

In other shots at 200, there was lots of detail, which looked great
from a distance, but getting closer looked very digital. Haloes,
jaggies, accentuated edges and a kind of 'video camera' effect.

I left feeling a bit flat actually. This will be the camera for
those that have high burst speed and white balance at the top of
their shopping lists. For those who worry about image quality, then
perhaps they will be disappointed. This was further reinforced when
I looked at D100 and Canon 10D demo pics at the dealers down the
road; they roasted the D2H in all areas.

I realise that it's only 4mp, and these were big prints, and
perhaps I was expecting too much, but... I'll not be saying
sayonara to my D100 anytime soon.

It'll be in the shops in the last week in October here.

I'm not sure I can answer any technical questions, but you are
welcome to ask.

Cheers

Slightly deflated Noodle
Tokyo
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Noodles Galleries (early days yet)
http://www.pbase.com/noodle2003
--------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Neil Crick said:
I guess so. The labels were very brief and just listed the camera,
lens and ISO setting as far as I remember. There were shots from an
outdoor athletics meet in Yokohama, a motor race (poss F1), an
indoor gymnastics comp, some beautiful air to air photography and
other assorted goodies. They could well have been taken over a few
months.
Click to expand...
When you look at the amazing improvement with firmware updates of the Olympus E-1 photos from just a couple of months ago, I am not too worried about Nikon. I am sure that it will best what is out there now and they will continue to fine tune it.
 
Neil Crick said:
Without being able to compare directly to film grain at a similar
ISO, I'd be tempted to say the D2H is a LOT more noisy. Shadow
areas at 200 show intrusive grain, enough to take attention from
other areas on what are otherwise excellent photos. Sports shots at
640 and 800+ showed grain like cannonballs, and was more
noticeable on the B&W shots than the colour ones.
Click to expand...
This leaves me deeply puzzled. Last week I examined shots taken at the same time, in the same place, by a D1x and a D2h. The D2h won hands down in terms of noise - light years better than the D1x. Are we talking about the same camera?

peter ibbotson
 
I am talking of delays because I have had the date changed three times by the rep here in Toronto. Also I think we should expect a little more from this camera than the D1H and not just in speed. The rep has told me that this camera will be great for PJ, wedding, action photo's, and landscape. As far as rushing to judgement I did say I will wait till final release and give Nikon bennifit of the doublt.

As for "digital website reviews determine my purchase" your darn right they do. I don't know about you but I don't get the chance to just go test drive a D2H and take home the pictures and check them out. So yes I read all the info I can on the D2H from digital review places online and off. I try to consider the source, but other than these sites such as Phils I don't know where else you would get the info to make your buying decision.

I mean this is a $4700.00 Canadian camera. Few stores will even carry this camera and those that do, will have them sold out the door before most can even look at it. So unless you are just going to take Nikon totally for their word, which I am not. I will read the reviews, such as Phils and others and go from there. I like Nikon, but I am still going to try to be as knowledgeable as possible in my buying decision.
Member said:
decision
Click to expand...
Terry Cioni said:
I keep reading 'delays'. What is delayed? The Nikon press release
on this site says the D2H will be released 4th Quarter 2003. No
specific date. I appreciated Neil's well considered post. That
said, I for one am not rushing to judgement on the D2H (no offense
Neil) - keeping in mind the D2H is what it is.....sports and
photojournalism.

I believe Nikon set the bar very high in their July press release
and comments from Richard LoPinto of Nikon USA pushed the bar
higher. We shall see if the image quality, in particular noise, is
what they claim, but we all agree it is a fine camera with major
advances - now let's be patient until there are full proudction
models (final firmware + hardware) in more hands. On another point
I will hardly let digital website reviews determine my purchase
decision - I would not own Nikon if I let this site's reviews
directed my purchase decisions.

Cheers.
greg n said:
I have to say your review is a little scarry. You make it sound
like the D2H is worse than the D1H. I would hope that this is not
the case. You say even the pictures at 200 look bad. I find this
quite dissapointing. This combined with the delays and lack of
reviews and full picture releases do raise a lot of questions. I
have played with the camera and it seems amazing, but then picture
quality is the final result.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Greg,

I am sorry you took my comments personally. I in no way wanted to suggest you have rushed to judgement about anything... As for dpreview reviews by all means whatever works for you in the purchase decision making process - again I was referring to my approach. On the subject of delays - I am totally surprized that one of the Toronto sales reps was giving you dates beyond the open ended 4th quarter indicated in the press release. Over the years I have found Nikon Canada is generally careful on being specific until they have the camera in hand. In my humble, very humble experience the reps tend know when we know...not to much sooner than that.

May I ask what you are currently shooting with - body wise - and what you would be using the D2H for....should it meet your expectations that is. I am curious because I have decided that although it has a many cool new features - it seems aimed at the photojournalism sports shooter and I will wait for the X version which will more likely fit my needs.

Anyway...nothing personal sir....

Terry
greg n said:
greg n said:
decision
Click to expand...
Terry Cioni said:
I keep reading 'delays'. What is delayed? The Nikon press release
on this site says the D2H will be released 4th Quarter 2003. No
specific date. I appreciated Neil's well considered post. That
said, I for one am not rushing to judgement on the D2H (no offense
Neil) - keeping in mind the D2H is what it is.....sports and
photojournalism.

I believe Nikon set the bar very high in their July press release
and comments from Richard LoPinto of Nikon USA pushed the bar
higher. We shall see if the image quality, in particular noise, is
what they claim, but we all agree it is a fine camera with major
advances - now let's be patient until there are full proudction
models (final firmware + hardware) in more hands. On another point
I will hardly let digital website reviews determine my purchase
decision - I would not own Nikon if I let this site's reviews
directed my purchase decisions.

Cheers.
greg n said:
I have to say your review is a little scarry. You make it sound
like the D2H is worse than the D1H. I would hope that this is not
the case. You say even the pictures at 200 look bad. I find this
quite dissapointing. This combined with the delays and lack of
reviews and full picture releases do raise a lot of questions. I
have played with the camera and it seems amazing, but then picture
quality is the final result.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Yes well, my wife says I often over react. In any case I was shooting with a D100 and it was stolen. I have talked to the Nikon rep at the Toronto show and he convinced me that the d2H is a do anything camera, except poster sized prints. He felt it would be great for low light indoor shots, asides from the PJ jeer.

I most likely do not need the power of a pro camera, really a D100, 10D would probly be fine. However I love this hobby and in this case I have more money than ... Hence I want the D2H. I too would be interested in the D2X but I fear it is at least a year before it hits the street and then I think it might be out of my price range.

Bottom line is, I have played with the D2H at the Toronto show and now I am addicted to it. I should correct my delays though, it was a store rep that gave me the different dates, and news on the net. The Nikon rep in Toronto clearly stated you will not see it till December. I hope the end of October rumours are true though. Thank you for your response. Greg
Terry Cioni said:
Greg,
I am sorry you took my comments personally. I in no way wanted to
suggest you have rushed to judgement about anything... As for
dpreview reviews by all means whatever works for you in the
purchase decision making process - again I was referring to my
approach. On the subject of delays - I am totally surprized that
one of the Toronto sales reps was giving you dates beyond the open
ended 4th quarter indicated in the press release. Over the years I
have found Nikon Canada is generally careful on being specific
until they have the camera in hand. In my humble, very humble
experience the reps tend know when we know...not to much sooner
than that.

May I ask what you are currently shooting with - body wise - and
what you would be using the D2H for....should it meet your
expectations that is. I am curious because I have decided that
although it has a many cool new features - it seems aimed at the
photojournalism sports shooter and I will wait for the X version
which will more likely fit my needs.

Anyway...nothing personal sir....

Terry
Click to expand...
 
Hi Hans

There were a couple of mid-hi ISO shots of indoor gymnastics (ribbons and balls, if you know what I mean), and the flat colour backgrounds did indeed show a kind of posterization effect. What should have been gradations of colour, just showed as bands and blocks. Sorry, it's difficult to describe how it looked, but imagine slowly reducing the number of colours recognized, or compressing an image to reduce the file size; then that's a bit like it. I was somewhat reminded of early SD9 low light shots.

There could be a 100 different reasons for these image effects, which might be reduced by later firmware. However, I'd be tempted to wonder why they were displayed so prominently if they were done with unfished firmware.

I might try and go back later in the week if I can.

Cheers

Neil
Hans Giersberg said:
Neil Crick said:
Hi Hans

Highlights and generally, well-exposed areas looked good in the
colour shots. They had some plane to plane shots that looked very
nice. To play Devil's Advocate for a while, that could be due to
the noise-reduction working more effectively in those areas. Either
way, it wasn't an issue that sprang to my eyes.

Night night

Neil
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Noodles Galleries (early days yet)
http://www.pbase.com/noodle2003
 
Hi Peter

Well, what can I say? It was a D2H gallery at the Nikon Salon, there were D2H seminars going on, there were D2h posters, postcards, brochures all over the room, every picture had a label that said D2h, the lens, the ISO and a couple other notes on the image. No other cameras digi or film were being pushed. This was purely a D2h event.

Perhaps they printed them larger than they should have under the circumstances, perhaps it was early firmware, perhaps they screwed the labels and they should have read Canon Digital Rebel :)

Whatever, the reason, these are just my impressions and pretty unscientific ones at that.

Don't think we'll have to wait too long for the final analysis.

Cheers

Neil
Peter Ibbotson said:
Neil Crick said:
Without being able to compare directly to film grain at a similar
ISO, I'd be tempted to say the D2H is a LOT more noisy. Shadow
areas at 200 show intrusive grain, enough to take attention from
other areas on what are otherwise excellent photos. Sports shots at
640 and 800+ showed grain like cannonballs, and was more
noticeable on the B&W shots than the colour ones.
Click to expand...
This leaves me deeply puzzled. Last week I examined shots taken at
the same time, in the same place, by a D1x and a D2h. The D2h won
hands down in terms of noise - light years better than the D1x.
Are we talking about the same camera?

peter ibbotson
Click to expand...
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Noodles Galleries (early days yet)
http://www.pbase.com/noodle2003
 
I remember the day that Nikon showed the D2H over here in Holland at the Zandvoort circuit. In Zandvoort there were also prints at all sorts of formats. They looked nice but were also taken with earlier firmware versions. It wouldn't be strange if these pictures went around the world and so they are early firmware version pictures... Nikon has sent out a lot of photographers with a early firmware version D2H and maybe they collected their pictures in Tokyo along with the first fieldtested D2h's. Just a thought..

Another thought.. If there are final firmware pictures to be exposed, why wouldn't Nikon show them to all of us. I think Nikon also isn't satisfied at this moment. Maybe that's the reason everybody hears about the delay. Shipping the camera can mean it's coming to the importers at this moment, but it doesn't mean they will ship to stores right away. Hardware maybe allright and ready for shipment but software can be send to the importers later on (december or so). Let's just wait untill Nikon or this site publises their own pictures.. just some thoughts...

Gr.

Dré
 
Greetings

I heard from one of the tech guys at Nikon following my question about the firmware and the image quality on show. I was told that 5 pro photographers in 5 different locations took the shots, and the brief was to push the cameras imaging capability to the limit. None of the cameras were using final version firmware, but they were keen to show the images that could be created by 4mp at the extremes of the imagers capability.

This suggests that they have used Capture etc to squeeze every last drop of image data to ensure they have a shot to show, exactly what a PJ would have to do in the field. This is certainly a positive note and gels with most of the images on show. However, the well lit ISO200 shots were still showing a bit too much shadow noise for me, BUT, this is without knowing how many firmware incarnations there have been since then.

Aside from all that though, as examples of the PJs art, they were well 'ard pictures.

Cheers

Neil
Neil Crick said:
Greetings

For Tokyo based souls, the Nikon Salon in Shinjuku is having
pre-launch seminars on the D2H (need to reserve) and they have a
gallery with 30 or so big prints (20"+) that's on until the 20th. I
just spent 30 mins going around the gallery and pushing my nose
right up to the prints, and for those who may be curious, here are
my thoughts; random as ever.

Firstly, don't plonk your money down until you've seen a full
workout by Phil. My overall impression is that this camera is aimed
at PJs whose priority is to get the shot, rather than worry about
image quality. Personally, I think noise and colour range are going
to be the biggest issues.

Without being able to compare directly to film grain at a similar
ISO, I'd be tempted to say the D2H is a LOT more noisy. Shadow
areas at 200 show intrusive grain, enough to take attention from
other areas on what are otherwise excellent photos. Sports shots at
640 and 800+ showed grain like cannonballs, and was more
noticeable on the B&W shots than the colour ones.

Colour was very good and well saturated, except for reds and neons.
Reds seem plastic and become single shade with no gradient (like
old Sony cameras), while neons too lose realism. Whites looked
beautiful and showed great detail. One shot of an F1 car in bright
sunshine showed squished bugs on a white cowling, while the wheel
spinner in shadow, showed the bearing clip and race.

In many indoor shots, shadow colours are clipped, meaning that
gradient colours dissolved into horrible blocks and bands, with a
green cast reminiscent of underexposed film.

It also seems like some agressive anti-noise is going on too. Some
indoor gymnastic shots at around 640, showed that indiviudal
strands of hair were just smeared and blocked, as were different
shades in the faces. They looked very poor, and reminded me of the
Fuji noise reduction effects. I got the feeling that the sensor
ramped up the gain aggressively when shadows were present. One shot
of a silver Mustang was lovely over the top of the plane, with
great colous and contrast. However, the underside around the intake
and wing root were in shadow, and the noise just leapt out.

Contradictorily, in some shots the dynamic range was impressive
with highlight and shadow detail in some air to air shots of a dark
plane in bright sunshine. Beautifully exposed.

It looks like the white balance system dealt well with the indoor
sports, with natural-looking colours, except for reds, neons and
shadows.

In other shots at 200, there was lots of detail, which looked great
from a distance, but getting closer looked very digital. Haloes,
jaggies, accentuated edges and a kind of 'video camera' effect.

I left feeling a bit flat actually. This will be the camera for
those that have high burst speed and white balance at the top of
their shopping lists. For those who worry about image quality, then
perhaps they will be disappointed. This was further reinforced when
I looked at D100 and Canon 10D demo pics at the dealers down the
road; they roasted the D2H in all areas.

I realise that it's only 4mp, and these were big prints, and
perhaps I was expecting too much, but... I'll not be saying
sayonara to my D100 anytime soon.

It'll be in the shops in the last week in October here.

I'm not sure I can answer any technical questions, but you are
welcome to ask.

Cheers

Slightly deflated Noodle
Tokyo
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Noodles Galleries (early days yet)
http://www.pbase.com/noodle2003
--------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Noodles Galleries (early days yet)
http://www.pbase.com/noodle2003
 
Neil Crick said:
Greetings

I heard from one of the tech guys at Nikon following my question
about the firmware and the image quality on show. I was told that 5
pro photographers in 5 different locations took the shots, and the
brief was to push the cameras imaging capability to the limit. None
of the cameras were using final version firmware, but they were
keen to show the images that could be created by 4mp at the
extremes of the imagers capability.

This suggests that they have used Capture etc to squeeze every last
drop of image data to ensure they have a shot to show, exactly what
a PJ would have to do in the field. This is certainly a positive
note and gels with most of the images on show. However, the well
lit ISO200 shots were still showing a bit too much shadow noise for
me, BUT, this is without knowing how many firmware incarnations
there have been since then.
Click to expand...
Well that's certainly encouraging news. If this gallery is showing what can be achieved when pushing the camera to its limits, then it may not be representative of what the camera can deliver under less challenging circumstances. It will certainly be interesting to see what the final production cameras deliver.

Rollie
 
Thanks for sharing! The pictures looks great for me!!

greatings, manfred
 
Ah, sorry, sorry. I had just got off the phone from friends back in Liverpool and I regressed a bit. In this context "well 'ard" means, jolly good, spiffing, stonking. brill, ace, max...

Sorry, I'm just a scally, me.

Noodle
Tokyo
FKS said:
hi neil-

apologies, but could you explain what "well 'ard" means?

thanks.
Click to expand...
--------------------------------------------------------
Noodles Galleries (early days yet)
http://www.pbase.com/noodle2003
 
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