The R6 does not share the same sensor as the 1DX III

https://www.canonrumors.com/the-canon-eos-r6-is-still-scheduled-to-be-announced-in-may-cr2/

"I’ve also seen some reports around the web comparing the Canon EOS R6 to the Canon EOS-1D X Mark III just because the sensor resolution is the same. The EOS R6 will NOT use the same sensor as the EOS-1D X Mark III."

I would guess that it's the Mark 2's sensor.

Jx9 said:

https://www.canonrumors.com/the-canon-eos-r6-is-still-scheduled-to-be-announced-in-may-cr2/

"I’ve also seen some reports around the web comparing the Canon EOS R6 to the Canon EOS-1D X Mark III just because the sensor resolution is the same. The EOS R6 will NOT use the same sensor as the EOS-1D X Mark III."

I would guess that it's the Mark 2's sensor.

Click to expand...

Depends on what is meant by “same”. Canon also said the R does not use the “same” sensor as the 5D4 or the RP as the 6D2. We’ll find out how it performs soon enough but it sounds mighty impressive so far.

Jx9 said:

https://www.canonrumors.com/the-canon-eos-r6-is-still-scheduled-to-be-announced-in-may-cr2/

"I’ve also seen some reports around the web comparing the Canon EOS R6 to the Canon EOS-1D X Mark III just because the sensor resolution is the same. The EOS R6 will NOT use the same sensor as the EOS-1D X Mark III."

I would guess that it's the Mark 2's sensor.

Click to expand...

That page is outdated, though. It has the same 20fps burst rate with electronic shutter as mkIII, which is better than 1DxMkII's 16fps (with AF locked), and wasn't known yet at the tame that page was written. I don't know what we should make of this claim anyway (less dynamic range?), it might as well be not the same sensor as 1DxII, surely the circuitry behind it is not.

--
Luc

The camera makers love to use the smallest changes to label sensors as new but I think the leap in specs achieved by the R5 make it clear that Canon genuinely has something worthy of being called a new generation of sensor design. Even if the R6 isn't a top-tier offering, it makes sense that they want make the R6 the best it can be for it's target segment. The R5 specs shows they want to leap their competitors not just match them and I think that mindset applies to all tiers of their offerings not just the top line.

The Canon "EOS R6" will be released in Japan in late August. The main features of R6 are "CMOS sensor based on flagship model", "DIGIC X" and "Dual pixel CMOS AF II". The main features of the R5 are "the world's first 8K video recording," "the world's highest 8.0-step image stabilization," "about 45 million pixels," and "high-speed continuous shooting at up to about 20 frames per second."

From Nokishita

Today's Canon press release clears things up.

"The combination of the EOS-1D X Mark III based 20.1-megapixel full-frame CMOS sensor and the DIGIC X image processor produces an ISO range of 100-102,400 and is expandable to 204,800."

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...-details/2020/20200709-camera/20200709-camera

In the reimagine live video they literally say that the R6 is based on the 1DXIII.

It may be possible that the R6 sensor is in fact better than the 1DXIII

lawny13 said:

In the reimagine live video they literally say that the R6 is based on the 1DXIII.

It may be possible that the R6 sensor is in fact better than the 1DXIII

Click to expand...

no. it will be slightly worse.

a) it's mirrorless .. more heat.

b) it has IBIS .. less heat sinking

what they tweak is usually the microlenses.

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

In the reimagine live video they literally say that the R6 is based on the 1DXIII.

It may be possible that the R6 sensor is in fact better than the 1DXIII

Click to expand...

no. it will be slightly worse.

a) it's mirrorless .. more heat.

b) it has IBIS .. less heat sinking

what they tweak is usually the microlenses.

Click to expand...

You're assuming... same as I am assuming.

lawny13 said:

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

In the reimagine live video they literally say that the R6 is based on the 1DXIII.

It may be possible that the R6 sensor is in fact better than the 1DXIII

Click to expand...

no. it will be slightly worse.

a) it's mirrorless .. more heat.

b) it has IBIS .. less heat sinking

what they tweak is usually the microlenses.

Click to expand...

You're assuming... same as I am assuming.

Click to expand...

not really. if you actually look at APS-C sensors of the same generation on the EOS-M for instance, the mirrorless ones usually performed just slightly less than the DSLR's.

Even sony's if you let them run long enough will heat up and the DR will slightly decrease.

this is simply the nature of a sensor. the hotter it runs, the more noise. it's not an assumption.

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

In the reimagine live video they literally say that the R6 is based on the 1DXIII.

It may be possible that the R6 sensor is in fact better than the 1DXIII

Click to expand...

no. it will be slightly worse.

a) it's mirrorless .. more heat.

b) it has IBIS .. less heat sinking

what they tweak is usually the microlenses.

Click to expand...

You're assuming... same as I am assuming.

Click to expand...

not really. if you actually look at APS-C sensors of the same generation on the EOS-M for instance, the mirrorless ones usually performed just slightly less than the DSLR's.

Even sony's if you let them run long enough will heat up and the DR will slightly decrease.

this is simply the nature of a sensor. the hotter it runs, the more noise. it's not an assumption.

Click to expand...

But they aren't of the same generation necessarily.


I would imagine that they probably got the sensor for the 1DXIII developed before much of the rest of the camera. I think for the 1DXIII the mirror box is always mechanically challenging. This can easily make the 1DXIII sensor "older" than that of the R6. And since it was the first of its kind, the R6 sensor could have been further optimised. SO I wouldn't be surprised if they are in fact on par. After all, if canon was able to deal with the heat issues we would expect on the R5 which is a considerably high MP sensor, then the R6 should be no problem.


Also consider the low light performance they are claiming. That is an other indication of good thermal performance.



That is why I am saying we are both assuming. We really need to wait for the reviews and comparisons and all that before we can count all our chickens.



So far... canon has not shown us anything, NOTHING AT ALL. in this release that has the "crippling", the other shoe will drop type scenario everyone was claiming it would be. So I will continue to give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove to me that we should doubt them.



I fully agree with Jared. I have also been saying that canon is the "sleeper of the bunch"

lawny13 said:

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

In the reimagine live video they literally say that the R6 is based on the 1DXIII.

It may be possible that the R6 sensor is in fact better than the 1DXIII

Click to expand...

no. it will be slightly worse.

a) it's mirrorless .. more heat.

b) it has IBIS .. less heat sinking

what they tweak is usually the microlenses.

Click to expand...

You're assuming... same as I am assuming.

Click to expand...

not really. if you actually look at APS-C sensors of the same generation on the EOS-M for instance, the mirrorless ones usually performed just slightly less than the DSLR's.

Even sony's if you let them run long enough will heat up and the DR will slightly decrease.

this is simply the nature of a sensor. the hotter it runs, the more noise. it's not an assumption.

Click to expand...

But they aren't of the same generation necessarily.

Click to expand...

yeah.. they were? what ones are you talking about?

lawny13 said:

I would imagine that they probably got the sensor for the 1DXIII developed before much of the rest of the camera. I think for the 1DXIII the mirror box is always mechanically challenging. This can easily make the 1DXIII sensor "older" than that of the R6.

Click to expand...

you are way over complicating this. they will be the same generation. Canon doesn't just create a 'new generation' of full frame sensors overnight, which takes years and tons of patent work.

there's some optimization that is always done for the sensor application, but generational speaking? they will be the same.

"The R6 is built around a variant of the 20MP sensor originally seen in the EOS-1D X III. Canon doesn't specify the difference but there's noticeably no mention of the R6 using the expensive '16-point' anti-aliasing filter from the flagship camera, which is a likely distinction (we'd expect the R6's AA filter to be the more conventional type)."

I don't really care that it's the same actual sensor, personally my main hope for it is that it shares the same CFA as the 1DX III, because that really works for me (or would if I had one).

Canon always seem to be tweaking the CFA for who they perceive the target user to be. The previous R models seemed tweaked for landscape, while the 1DX tweaked for sports and fashion.

I hope the R6 keeps the CFA from the 1DX III, but we'll get a better idea as soon as DPR get the studio scene test up.

lawny13 said:

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

In the reimagine live video they literally say that the R6 is based on the 1DXIII.

It may be possible that the R6 sensor is in fact better than the 1DXIII

Click to expand...

no. it will be slightly worse.

a) it's mirrorless .. more heat.

b) it has IBIS .. less heat sinking

what they tweak is usually the microlenses.

Click to expand...

You're assuming... same as I am assuming.

Click to expand...

I measured. Read noise about 1.5 stops higher than that of the 1DXIII, which is still very low.

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

In the reimagine live video they literally say that the R6 is based on the 1DXIII.

It may be possible that the R6 sensor is in fact better than the 1DXIII

Click to expand...

no. it will be slightly worse.

a) it's mirrorless .. more heat.

b) it has IBIS .. less heat sinking

what they tweak is usually the microlenses.

Click to expand...

You're assuming... same as I am assuming.

Click to expand...

not really. if you actually look at APS-C sensors of the same generation on the EOS-M for instance, the mirrorless ones usually performed just slightly less than the DSLR's.

Even sony's if you let them run long enough will heat up and the DR will slightly decrease.

this is simply the nature of a sensor. the hotter it runs, the more noise. it's not an assumption.

Click to expand...

But they aren't of the same generation necessarily.

Click to expand...

yeah.. they were? what ones are you talking about?

rrc1967 said:

I would imagine that they probably got the sensor for the 1DXIII developed before much of the rest of the camera. I think for the 1DXIII the mirror box is always mechanically challenging. This can easily make the 1DXIII sensor "older" than that of the R6.

Click to expand...

you are way over complicating this. they will be the same generation. Canon doesn't just create a 'new generation' of full frame sensors overnight, which takes years and tons of patent work.

there's some optimization that is always done for the sensor application, but generational speaking? they will be the same.

Click to expand...

I am not over complicating things. Take the intel approach to processor development. The well known tick tock. The come up with a completely new architecture chip. Next round it is basically a rebranded chip that is essentially optimized for heat and efficiency.



Say they were finished with the 1DXIII processor design up to 2 years before the camera came out. They spend about 1 year testing it out in the field, and optimizing software and the kinks. A camera sensor is essentially at the heart of the camera. So everything else is built around it, to work with it etc, so it makes sense that the processor likely is finished before het rest of the bodies.



The 1DXIII processor also doesn’t have to cope the same way as the R6 one does, as you yourself pointed out.

The R6 didn’t come out at the same time either right? If it were the same sensor all they needed was a MILC with the 1DXIII internals right? They could have easily done this and came out with the R5 later.



But in an engineering perspective, they could have continued to work on the 1DXIII sensor producing a v1.5 in essence for the R6. The interfaces to the IBIS system, the heat solution for it etc etc. I Was a design engineer in the high tech sector (semiconductors) for 8 years and continual design and improvement is definitely something that can and is done in engineering. So, no I am not over thinking this. Canon needed to come out guns blazing. And ha that R6 perform as good as the 1DXIII If they could do it, writhin the price constraints... ya they would do it.

lawny13 said:

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

In the reimagine live video they literally say that the R6 is based on the 1DXIII.

It may be possible that the R6 sensor is in fact better than the 1DXIII

Click to expand...

no. it will be slightly worse.

a) it's mirrorless .. more heat.

b) it has IBIS .. less heat sinking

what they tweak is usually the microlenses.

Click to expand...

You're assuming... same as I am assuming.

Click to expand...

not really. if you actually look at APS-C sensors of the same generation on the EOS-M for instance, the mirrorless ones usually performed just slightly less than the DSLR's.

Even sony's if you let them run long enough will heat up and the DR will slightly decrease.

this is simply the nature of a sensor. the hotter it runs, the more noise. it's not an assumption.

Click to expand...

But they aren't of the same generation necessarily.

Click to expand...

yeah.. they were? what ones are you talking about?

lawny13 said:

I would imagine that they probably got the sensor for the 1DXIII developed before much of the rest of the camera. I think for the 1DXIII the mirror box is always mechanically challenging. This can easily make the 1DXIII sensor "older" than that of the R6.

Click to expand...

you are way over complicating this. they will be the same generation. Canon doesn't just create a 'new generation' of full frame sensors overnight, which takes years and tons of patent work.

there's some optimization that is always done for the sensor application, but generational speaking? they will be the same.

Click to expand...

I am not over complicating things. Take the intel approach to processor development. The well known tick tock. The come up with a completely new architecture chip. Next round it is basically a rebranded chip that is essentially optimized for heat and efficiency.

Click to expand...

intel has more than far more than one fab plant .. canon has two. small plants. that's it.

the construction timelines for the three cameras were probably pretty close to one another. both in around 2-3 years time. Canon certainly started to work on the birth of these two cameras back that far.

anyways this conversation is going nowhere. there is no compelling need for canon to have done something that you are suggesting as JACs has reported, the noise is higher on the R6 than the 1DX Mark III.

Why no BSI Sensor?

lightnchade said:

I hope the R6 keeps the CFA from the 1DX III, but we'll get a better idea as soon as DPR get the studio scene test up.

Click to expand...

Looking at the table of white balances extracted from raw files, CFAs should be very close, within the calibration difference (sample variation + sensor temperature)

// Canon EOS R6, Kr, Kg, Kb
Daylight, {1.85156f, 1.0f, 1.57520f},
Tungsten, {1.30469f, 1.0f, 2.28613f},
Flash, {2.04395f, 1.0f, 1.43652f},
Cloudy, {2.00000f, 1.0f, 1.46094f},
Shade, {2.14258f, 1.0f, 1.35840f},
FL_W, {1.55176f, 1.0f, 2.20215f},
Ill_A, {1.30469f, 1.0f, 2.28613f},
10900 K, {2.44976f, 1.0f, 1.16629f},
10000 K, {2.39252f, 1.0f, 1.19347f},
8300 K, {2.28062f, 1.0f, 1.27047f},
7000 K, {2.14226f, 1.0f, 1.35809f},
6000 K, {2.00000f, 1.0f, 1.46077f},
5600 K, {1.93208f, 1.0f, 1.50810f},
5200 K, {1.85172f, 1.0f, 1.57538f},
4700 K, {1.75043f, 1.0f, 1.68145f},
4200 K, {1.62798f, 1.0f, 1.82206f},
3800 K, {1.51256f, 1.0f, 1.96169f},
3500 K, {1.41436f, 1.0f, 2.09836f},
3200 K, {1.30446f, 1.0f, 2.28571f},
3000 K, {1.22782f, 1.0f, 2.43810f},
2800 K, {1.14670f, 1.0f, 2.57934f},
2400 K, {0.97524f, 1.0f, 2.91738f},

// Canon EOS-1D X Mark III, Kr, Kg, Kb
Daylight, {1.85156f, 1.0f, 1.55859f},
Tungsten, {1.31152f, 1.0f, 2.29590f},
Flash, {2.03223f, 1.0f, 1.41406f},
Cloudy, {1.99219f, 1.0f, 1.44043f},
Shade, {2.12402f, 1.0f, 1.33301f},
FL_W, {1.56836f, 1.0f, 2.23047f},
Ill_A, {1.31152f, 1.0f, 2.29590f},
10900 K, {2.39252f, 1.0f, 1.13525f},
10000 K, {2.34325f, 1.0f, 1.16364f},
8300 K, {2.24561f, 1.0f, 1.24272f},
7000 K, {2.12448f, 1.0f, 1.33333f},
6000 K, {1.99222f, 1.0f, 1.44023f},
5600 K, {1.92481f, 1.0f, 1.48837f},
5200 K, {1.85172f, 1.0f, 1.55860f},
4700 K, {1.75342f, 1.0f, 1.67047f},
4200 K, {1.63317f, 1.0f, 1.81239f},
3800 K, {1.52155f, 1.0f, 1.96169f},
3500 K, {1.42025f, 1.0f, 2.10267f},
3200 K, {1.31114f, 1.0f, 2.29596f},
3000 K, {1.23373f, 1.0f, 2.45564f},
2800 K, {1.15056f, 1.0f, 2.59241f},
2400 K, {0.97524f, 1.0f, 2.91738f},

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

rrc1967 said:

lawny13 said:

In the reimagine live video they literally say that the R6 is based on the 1DXIII.

It may be possible that the R6 sensor is in fact better than the 1DXIII

Click to expand...

no. it will be slightly worse.

a) it's mirrorless .. more heat.

b) it has IBIS .. less heat sinking

what they tweak is usually the microlenses.

Click to expand...

You're assuming... same as I am assuming.

Click to expand...

not really. if you actually look at APS-C sensors of the same generation on the EOS-M for instance, the mirrorless ones usually performed just slightly less than the DSLR's.

Even sony's if you let them run long enough will heat up and the DR will slightly decrease.

this is simply the nature of a sensor. the hotter it runs, the more noise. it's not an assumption.

Click to expand...

But they aren't of the same generation necessarily.

Click to expand...

yeah.. they were? what ones are you talking about?

rrc1967 said:

I would imagine that they probably got the sensor for the 1DXIII developed before much of the rest of the camera. I think for the 1DXIII the mirror box is always mechanically challenging. This can easily make the 1DXIII sensor "older" than that of the R6.

Click to expand...

you are way over complicating this. they will be the same generation. Canon doesn't just create a 'new generation' of full frame sensors overnight, which takes years and tons of patent work.

there's some optimization that is always done for the sensor application, but generational speaking? they will be the same.

Click to expand...

I am not over complicating things. Take the intel approach to processor development. The well known tick tock. The come up with a completely new architecture chip. Next round it is basically a rebranded chip that is essentially optimized for heat and efficiency.

Click to expand...

intel has more than far more than one fab plant .. canon has two. small plants. that's it.

the construction timelines for the three cameras were probably pretty close to one another. both in around 2-3 years time. Canon certainly started to work on the birth of these two cameras back that far.

anyways this conversation is going nowhere. there is no compelling need for canon to have done something that you are suggesting as JACs has reported, the noise is higher on the R6 than the 1DX Mark III.

Click to expand...

As i states. They interface for the sensor alone is likely different. You can have here exact same chip but still have a different module.



The sensor has to sit in the IBIS, and thus is by default in a different configuration.

anyway, as you said this conversation isn’t really going anywhere

lightnchade said:

"The R6 is built around a variant of the 20MP sensor originally seen in the EOS-1D X III. Canon doesn't specify the difference but there's noticeably no mention of the R6 using the expensive '16-point' anti-aliasing filter from the flagship camera, which is a likely distinction (we'd expect the R6's AA filter to be the more conventional type)."

I don't really care that it's the same actual sensor, personally my main hope for it is that it shares the same CFA as the 1DX III, because that really works for me (or would if I had one).

Canon always seem to be tweaking the CFA for who they perceive the target user to be. The previous R models seemed tweaked for landscape, while the 1DX tweaked for sports and fashion.

I hope the R6 keeps the CFA from the 1DX III, but we'll get a better idea as soon as DPR get the studio scene test up.

Click to expand...

The 1DXmarkIII uses two processors (DIGIG X and DIGIC 8) to perform the autofocus functions. The R6 only have one, the DIGIC X. I.e less processing power than the 1DXM3. How this sorts out in practical image capturing is not known.