After the hysterics - lets read carefully

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kes only about 10,000 cameras/year. Leica presumably not that much more.

I wonder what will happen with the basically brand new factory in Vietnam where all Olmypus cameras and lenses are made. Perhaps the factory will be sold and production of cameras and lenses outsourced to some OEM manufacturer, to cut costs. Or perhaps Olympus will start to make cameras and lenses for others in its presumably oversized factory.

vietnam-factory_635.jpg
The Vietnam factory is a huge complex manufacturing products for the three business segments: Medical, Scientific Solutions and Imaging.
It's also one of the conceits that goes around that this is 'basically brand new' and was dedicated to making cameras. It comes from the time that Olympus consolidated its manufacturing to the existing Vietnam factory, closing it China factory in the process. Since this had to be seen as indication of a bright future, that Olympus was investing in a brand new factory, the faithful insisted that itv was a new factory, even though Olympus' annual report said they were consolidating to an existing factory. The Vietnam factory dates from 2007, hardly 'brand new'. They built a new shed there in 2018 to expand capacity to take some of the work from China.

It's this kind of denial, that even carries on after the false story it was trying to promote, that is so sad.

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Some details are of interest particularly.....

The first question is fairly simple. The camera division has been bought out by Japan Industrial Partners, what appears to be a sort of quasi-government-linked fund that buys domestic brands that for want of a better description, are deemed significant to national interests.

https://blog.mingthein.com/2020/06/25/the-beginning-of-the-end/#more-19938
I wonder why Ming came to the conclusion that JIP is "a sort of quasi-government-linked fund".

I don't think that a camera division with a 3% worldwide market share qualifies as "significant to national interests." Vaio certainly wasn't.
Maybe the issue wasn't the camera division, per se.... but by parking the camera division with JIP, and out from the parent company, it allows some other things to happen that are in the "national interest". I'll admit that I'm pretty ignorant about all these corporate finance kind of things, but I am always suspicious that somethings are just not as they appear at first blush.
 
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The announcement by Olympus has been posted by dpreview with comment by dpreview staff here:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/66071...-sell-imaging-business-by-the-end-of-the-year

Please read carefully before making a comment on this thread (especially the “Olympus words” as well as the journalistic comment.

I only make the post to bring back some rationality to the “oh my gosh we are all gonna die” posts and the reaction to the involvement of “the greedy Venture Capitalist JIP”.
I think the "we" isn't limited to M4/3 users. Every sensible camera enthusiast sees this happening to Olympus and wonders when it will also happen to Nikon, Pentax, Panasonic, etc. No one is immune from market forces, no matter how good or how popular their current products are.

We witnessed what happened to Kodak and don't want our own chosen brand to be stripped of new products, service and support and become just a brand name that someone exploits. It isn't entirely irrational for camera enthusiasts to be concerned. Of course, "being concerned" doesn't change anything. It is just something to complain about.
I remind those who worry about what JIP might choose to do of the long running theme that has permeated this forum regarding the continuing stream of losses incurred by Olympus Camera division. Something needed to be done eventually.

Firstly the announcement says quite clearly that the proposal is to transfer the camera division assets to a fund known currently as “NewCo” - which might be an interesting badge on the faceplate of your E-M1iii :) ). In any case this is a company (financially?) managed by JIP and not necessarily owned by JIP. The announcement also said by way of clarification that “(Olympus would be) operating the business in conjunction with JIP” and that “the corporate structure would be more compact, efficient and agile” run this way.
Well, lets think about it. Why would JIP buy anything unless they thought they could make a profit from their investment? They probably aren't a non profit organization. Given their history and capitalization, it is unlikely they could operate a camera business of this size, but I suppose they could give it a try. Making it a very risky proposition.

Or... perhaps they plan to "fix Olympus" then sell it to someone else for a profit. This implies they feel they could manage the Imaging Division better than Olympus has managed it. Personally, I doubt they could. Olympus has been doing everything they could to make their imaging division "more compact and efficient" for many years now.

I think Olympus has done everything they could possibly do so far, and still has failed to be profitable. Their situation isn't the result of poor management. It is the result of the same things that plague the entire industry (product maturity, market saturation, changing consumer preferences, etc.) These things are not fixable.
That’s not necessarily true at all Marty establishing a product strategy is part of management and I still see the EM1X and not caring about pro small as a priority a major management mistake - even if the other market conditions that you mention are also there

Its a combination
Tom, forget all the forum suggestions that they slash their prices, create more exotic high end products (for which very few customers exist), or start making full frame cameras (in direct competition with industry giants with more experience and bigger budgets). Those are forum fantasies that would only create bigger losses.
Sure but I don’t think all of them are
Olympus has done everything prudent and it still hasn't worked because the root cause of the problem isn't poor management or poor marketing. It was the sea change in the industry that included more factors than just "smartphones."
again not necessarily at all Home come there are others surviving first with profit and not losing money quarter by quarter?
And there is a third possibility. JIP could just hold onto Olympus for a while without investing another dime in it. They could sell off their patents and physical assets, and eventually sell off the trademark to become another cheap Chinese camera brand, sold on blister packs in big box stores. The brand name could end up on sunglasses and inkjet printers. Sold or licensed to anyone willing to pay. I think something similar happened to Rolliflex. I think this is the most likely outcome.
Thats unfortunately very possible
rollei_dp8300backfront.jpeg

Some blame is apportioned for the losses as due to “mobile phones”, but this could only be caused by the death of their useful pot boiler compact cameras which might have been good money for basic cameras. It cannot hold true for the current major camera body lines and premium lenses.
This is absolutely true. Smartphones actually DID destroy the market for the $100-$300 fixed lens compact camera, which at it's peak represented 75% of CIPAs revenue. This was a huge body blow for the industry.

However, the decline in ILC sales cannot be attributed to the smartphone, even though some people keep claiming it.
goes back to what I objected in your comments above
In fact reading between the lines I see an admission that it is the “less agile” management that needs overhauling.

My interpretation, for what it is worth, is:

Olympus is in a bit of despair that their efforts to make their camera division have not returned it to profitability. They have had some sort of conversation with bankers and there was a decision that the traditional management was not flexible enough to take it the last mile and effectively make the division profitable.

What I see is that independent advice has suggested a way forward. That the advice be followed to restructure the division first. This may be necessary because the multiple divisions so are tangled up in their management structures so much that a clean break after some untangling is necessary. In my experience where corporations run different divisions from under the same roof it gets very hard to allocate overhead rationally between divisions.

This slimmed down camera gear producing enterprise part is to be transferred into a “new fund” established as “NewCo” and importantly to be managed (not necessarily owned) by JIP. Some continuing involvement by Olympus seems to be anticipated. Presumably restricted to technical advice and expertise.

This leaves JIP as “the agile manager” of the new business which comprises the divested operating assets of the previous Olympus Camera Division. The mention of “funding” seem to indicate that some extra capital is to be injected to a “confirmed likely to be profitable New-Olympus”. This arrangement most likely to be a condition of whomever might have put up the additional funding.

Lots of scenarios on just how the funding might be arranged - it could be cash plus shares. But it is not my place here to speculate further. However it seems to me that JIP is to be appointed as independent manager to oversee the restructured division and some hard decisions will have to be made - most likely before NewCo - hence the delay.

Ultimately it is the shareholders of NewCo that matter most as to the future scenario. This might include share ownership by “Olympus Original” as the on-going slimmed down corporation might become.

If “NewCo” becomes profitable then at some stage JIP might step down as financial manager with their pot of gold from their services which might includes some free-carried shareholding (nobody should really expect them to be “Father Christmas”) - and “everybody happy”.

I emphasise that I know no more than what is in the official statement from Olympus - but anything else being touted as fact isn’t.
You make a good case. But it sounds more like a best case scenario drafted by someone who wants the imaging division to go forward. Personally, I see this as just "capitalism doing what it does best." Someone making money by buying a carcass at a drastically reduced price and selling off the parts for a profit.

I really hope that you are right and I am wrong.
i think even if Olympus ends up being “just another Vaio” if that means there’s ways to get some service, that’s still valuable


--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell
 
This is not the last camera business to "regroup". Others will follow at some point.

The world has changed and many people in shall we say, the younger generation, will not be taking up photography as we know it . Sure there will always be a niche market but image making by the masses in both production and consumption has moved on.

In the mean time Im keeping my Oly stuff and will run it into the ground. Im saving up for a replacement system should I out live my Oly gear.

As for Olympus, I understand your post but still fear the worst. What I do not understand is people rushing to sell there equipment. I may buy a fire sale Pen-F at some point.
Nobody feels smug. But some of us are rooting for companies that we think have the best chance of making it in the future. Personally, I put my money on Canon. It sucks that Olympus gave up but look at the history of photography... It's mostly Canon and Nikon. And in many industries it's mostly Canon. So while this looks bad, it's probably more good for the industry that some of these lesser players who are not really a part of the bigger story are getting pushed out.

Sure, not everyone wants a big camera, so buy an RP and a RF 35 f/1.8, the IQ is light years ahead of even the best Olympus cameras.
When you hear phrases like light years ahead time for the ignore button. It is all logarithmic so scaling up never really gives the advantages you would think and this sort of school yard hyperbole in any argument is a big indication of a weakness in the story.

Also zooms are out of the question as the zoom lenses are a big struggle in the desperate attempt to revive this obsolete old film sensor size in mirrorless as every man's camera to keep margins up.
The same is true of Nikon and even Sony offerings. 4/3rds just didn't have the image quality to compete as "pro" solution.
How many people are really interested in a Pro solution? Not I.

Not everyone is in the hobby to massage their ego.
Not in the hobby to massage their ego. What does that mean?
The feeling they are a Pro.

The idea that people using smaller formats are doing it because they have no knowledge of the real facts and no knowledge of the subject and must be told.

The full frame crowd will be in here in droves given the situation and if I have a dig at the whole full frame marketing hype going on and the disparaging of small sensors I feel no shame. Rather a lot of fun and they can retreat to their specific forums if it is all too upsetting when having criticised my kit I criticise theirs.

My view is that this full frame marketing exercise is a lost cause and there is a massive amount of denial and something has to give.

I have no problem with people using full frame but not with getting lectured down to by them off their forums and especially with phrases like light years ahead.

My little Canon SX620 with its tiny sensor does a good job in its own right. These format wars are just the nasty side of the hobby assuming more knowledge and expertise the bigger the sensor in the camera they have bought.

The most skilled photographers on these forums are the 1/2.3" superzoom bridge experts if anyone. Difficult to see light years of deficiency here in capable hands compared to full frame let alone in m43.

Slap down £2,000 down on the counter and you can get a fine Nikon, there is no argument with that, but also you have the privilege of going down to misguided smaller sensor forums and teach them to suck eggs with no experience required. Instant Pro on a plate. If they argue back they are just jolly horrid people, the sort who lurk under bridges, and who know no better.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the quality differences... Olympus was just bad. And they're going out of business. Do the math.
 
This is not the last camera business to "regroup". Others will follow at some point.

The world has changed and many people in shall we say, the younger generation, will not be taking up photography as we know it . Sure there will always be a niche market but image making by the masses in both production and consumption has moved on.

In the mean time Im keeping my Oly stuff and will run it into the ground. Im saving up for a replacement system should I out live my Oly gear.

As for Olympus, I understand your post but still fear the worst. What I do not understand is people rushing to sell there equipment. I may buy a fire sale Pen-F at some point.
Nobody feels smug. But some of us are rooting for companies that we think have the best chance of making it in the future. Personally, I put my money on Canon. It sucks that Olympus gave up but look at the history of photography... It's mostly Canon and Nikon. And in many industries it's mostly Canon. So while this looks bad, it's probably more good for the industry that some of these lesser players who are not really a part of the bigger story are getting pushed out.

Sure, not everyone wants a big camera, so buy an RP and a RF 35 f/1.8, the IQ is light years ahead of even the best Olympus cameras.
When you hear phrases like light years ahead time for the ignore button. It is all logarithmic so scaling up never really gives the advantages you would think and this sort of school yard hyperbole in any argument is a big indication of a weakness in the story.

Also zooms are out of the question as the zoom lenses are a big struggle in the desperate attempt to revive this obsolete old film sensor size in mirrorless as every man's camera to keep margins up.
The same is true of Nikon and even Sony offerings. 4/3rds just didn't have the image quality to compete as "pro" solution.
How many people are really interested in a Pro solution? Not I.

Not everyone is in the hobby to massage their ego.
Not in the hobby to massage their ego. What does that mean?
The feeling they are a Pro.

The idea that people using smaller formats are doing it because they have no knowledge of the real facts and no knowledge of the subject and must be told.

The full frame crowd will be in here in droves given the situation and if I have a dig at the whole full frame marketing hype going on and the disparaging of small sensors I feel no shame. Rather a lot of fun and they can retreat to their specific forums if it is all too upsetting when having criticised my kit I criticise theirs.

My view is that this full frame marketing exercise is a lost cause and there is a massive amount of denial and something has to give.

I have no problem with people using full frame but not with getting lectured down to by them off their forums and especially with phrases like light years ahead.

My little Canon SX620 with its tiny sensor does a good job in its own right. These format wars are just the nasty side of the hobby assuming more knowledge and expertise the bigger the sensor in the camera they have bought.

The most skilled photographers on these forums are the 1/2.3" superzoom bridge experts if anyone. Difficult to see light years of deficiency here in capable hands compared to full frame let alone in m43.

Slap down £2,000 down on the counter and you can get a fine Nikon, there is no argument with that, but also you have the privilege of going down to misguided smaller sensor forums and teach them to suck eggs with no experience required. Instant Pro on a plate. If they argue back they are just jolly horrid people, the sort who lurk under bridges, and who know no better.
I fully agree.
 
This is not the last camera business to "regroup". Others will follow at some point.

The world has changed and many people in shall we say, the younger generation, will not be taking up photography as we know it . Sure there will always be a niche market but image making by the masses in both production and consumption has moved on.

In the mean time Im keeping my Oly stuff and will run it into the ground. Im saving up for a replacement system should I out live my Oly gear.

As for Olympus, I understand your post but still fear the worst. What I do not understand is people rushing to sell there equipment. I may buy a fire sale Pen-F at some point.
Nobody feels smug. But some of us are rooting for companies that we think have the best chance of making it in the future. Personally, I put my money on Canon. It sucks that Olympus gave up but look at the history of photography... It's mostly Canon and Nikon. And in many industries it's mostly Canon. So while this looks bad, it's probably more good for the industry that some of these lesser players who are not really a part of the bigger story are getting pushed out.

Sure, not everyone wants a big camera, so buy an RP and a RF 35 f/1.8, the IQ is light years ahead of even the best Olympus cameras.
When you hear phrases like light years ahead time for the ignore button. It is all logarithmic so scaling up never really gives the advantages you would think and this sort of school yard hyperbole in any argument is a big indication of a weakness in the story.

Also zooms are out of the question as the zoom lenses are a big struggle in the desperate attempt to revive this obsolete old film sensor size in mirrorless as every man's camera to keep margins up.
The same is true of Nikon and even Sony offerings. 4/3rds just didn't have the image quality to compete as "pro" solution.
How many people are really interested in a Pro solution? Not I.

Not everyone is in the hobby to massage their ego.
Not in the hobby to massage their ego. What does that mean?
The feeling they are a Pro.

The idea that people using smaller formats are doing it because they have no knowledge of the real facts and no knowledge of the subject and must be told.

The full frame crowd will be in here in droves given the situation and if I have a dig at the whole full frame marketing hype going on and the disparaging of small sensors I feel no shame. Rather a lot of fun and they can retreat to their specific forums if it is all too upsetting when having criticised my kit I criticise theirs.

My view is that this full frame marketing exercise is a lost cause and there is a massive amount of denial and something has to give.

I have no problem with people using full frame but not with getting lectured down to by them off their forums and especially with phrases like light years ahead.

My little Canon SX620 with its tiny sensor does a good job in its own right. These format wars are just the nasty side of the hobby assuming more knowledge and expertise the bigger the sensor in the camera they have bought.

The most skilled photographers on these forums are the 1/2.3" superzoom bridge experts if anyone. Difficult to see light years of deficiency here in capable hands compared to full frame let alone in m43.

Slap down £2,000 down on the counter and you can get a fine Nikon, there is no argument with that, but also you have the privilege of going down to misguided smaller sensor forums and teach them to suck eggs with no experience required. Instant Pro on a plate. If they argue back they are just jolly horrid people, the sort who lurk under bridges, and who know no better.
I fully agree.
The joke here is speculating that people use larger formats for 'the feeling that they are a pro' while going with a brand with very little penetration into the professional market that labels its products 'Pro'.
 
2. JIP might outsource the development and manufacturing of future products to one or several ODMs. This is the way they manage VAIO: VAIO don't develop nor manufacture, they contract these tasks and then sell the product

but then you will end up with products that are only bought by people who want cheap.

Olympus is a big brand name in photography. Look at how heated the discussions about Olympus are everywhere.

Canon fans, Nikon fans, Fuji fans, .... All are shocked.

If JIP follows it's standard approach, this historical brand reputation will be lost immediately and cheap crap will be the result. In 10 years you don't even dare to mention that you ever used an Olympus.
 
You don't know how it will go. All this negative speculation is just another way of trash talk. The kind that brought Olympus into trouble the last few years.
 
but then you will end up with products that are only bought by people who want cheap.
I don't think that's a given. It depends on who the ODM is and what is their brief. The Olympus E-1 was an ODM product from Sanyo, and no-one complained about that being 'cheap crap'.
 
The announcement by Olympus has been posted by dpreview with comment by dpreview staff here:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/66071...-sell-imaging-business-by-the-end-of-the-year

Please read carefully before making a comment on this thread (especially the “Olympus words” as well as the journalistic comment.

I only make the post to bring back some rationality to the “oh my gosh we are all gonna die” posts and the reaction to the involvement of “the greedy Venture Capitalist JIP”.

I remind those who worry about what JIP might choose to do of the long running theme that has permeated this forum regarding the continuing stream of losses incurred by Olympus Camera division. Something needed to be done eventually.

Firstly the announcement says quite clearly that the proposal is to transfer the camera division assets to a fund known currently as “NewCo” - which might be an interesting badge on the faceplate of your E-M1iii :) ). In any case this is a company (financially?) managed by JIP and not necessarily owned by JIP. The announcement also said by way of clarification that “(Olympus would be) operating the business in conjunction with JIP” and that “the corporate structure would be more compact, efficient and agile” run this way.

Some blame is apportioned for the losses as due to “mobile phones”, but this could only be caused by the death of their useful pot boiler compact cameras which might have been good money for basic cameras. It cannot hold true for the current major camera body lines and premium lenses.

In fact reading between the lines I see an admission that it is the “less agile” management that needs overhauling.

My interpretation, for what it is worth, is:

Olympus is in a bit of despair that their efforts to make their camera division have not returned it to profitability. They have had some sort of conversation with bankers and there was a decision that the traditional management was not flexible enough to take it the last mile and effectively make the division profitable.

What I see is that independent advice has suggested a way forward. That the advice be followed to restructure the division first. This may be necessary because the multiple divisions so are tangled up in their management structures so much that a clean break after some untangling is necessary. In my experience where corporations run different divisions from under the same roof it gets very hard to allocate overhead rationally between divisions.

This slimmed down camera gear producing enterprise part is to be transferred into a “new fund” established as “NewCo” and importantly to be managed (not necessarily owned) by JIP. Some continuing involvement by Olympus seems to be anticipated. Presumably restricted to technical advice and expertise.

This leaves JIP as “the agile manager” of the new business which comprises the divested operating assets of the previous Olympus Camera Division. The mention of “funding” seem to indicate that some extra capital is to be injected to a “confirmed likely to be profitable New-Olympus”. This arrangement most likely to be a condition of whomever might have put up the additional funding.

Lots of scenarios on just how the funding might be arranged - it could be cash plus shares. But it is not my place here to speculate further. However it seems to me that JIP is to be appointed as independent manager to oversee the restructured division and some hard decisions will have to be made - most likely before NewCo - hence the delay.

Ultimately it is the shareholders of NewCo that matter most as to the future scenario. This might include share ownership by “Olympus Original” as the on-going slimmed down corporation might become.

If “NewCo” becomes profitable then at some stage JIP might step down as financial manager with their pot of gold from their services which might includes some free-carried shareholding (nobody should really expect them to be “Father Christmas”) - and “everybody happy”.

I emphasise that I know no more than what is in the official statement from Olympus - but anything else being touted as fact isn’t.
I'm sorry Tom but no one, NO ONE, is being hysterical here, nope, no way, just calm down Tom. Calm down.

(deep intake of breath)

My fangers hove now stipped shaking, so I'll continue (clears throat)

The thing is, the thing is, I am totally discombobulated (the act of trying to understand Bobn2). If I've understood the current situation (from underneath the sofa looking out) there is no need to be hysterical (which I'm not, maybe) about facts /rumours/opinions about something or someone perhaps or perhaps not existing in the future?

I've just taken another 40mg of Prozac so maybe I should let it 'kick in'. That, or just enjoy being hysterical.

--
Adrian
An amateur, atheist, alliterationist
 
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It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the quality differences...
I'm left here wondering how being a rocket scientist would help you see quality differences.
It's a figure of speech.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that the comment might have been about whether it was an appropriate figure of speech.
Thanks for starting up an argument about nothing.
 
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the quality differences...
I'm left here wondering how being a rocket scientist would help you see quality differences.
It's a figure of speech.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that the comment might have been about whether it was an appropriate figure of speech.
Thanks for starting up an argument about nothing.
You're very welcome. That's just a figure of speech, by the way.
 
You don't know how it will go. All this negative speculation is just another way of trash talk. The kind that brought Olympus into trouble the last few years.
If you would all have bought a fraction of the Olympus gear (new gear) I have bought, they wouldn't be in trouble.
 
Yes. While I have no skin in the game other than many decades love and passion for photography, would be sad to see it go the way Kodak, GE, Honeywell, Polaroid, etc. names appear on budget products. And Olympus is a great word that could apply to a lot of things. Would have to know the trademark status and how it is presently being enforced.
 
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