I'd like Fuji to start charging for firmware updates

halai · Jun 3, 2020

Why would you want to do that? I would rather have no firmware updates, none! Just give us a camera that got right the first time, instead of half baked camera and with tons of firmware to fix and improve properties.

halai

Silverback46 · Jun 3, 2020

I think your first paragraph and the last paragraph are key:

Note this does not apply firmware fixes of bugs.

And:

The big concern people would have is that Fuji would hold back features to sell them in the future. But they are already doing that to differentiate models and to sell new ones.

Bugs should definitely be addressed by the manufacturer for free especially when you consider some of the latest lens releases by companies. If Fuji, like Panasonic had created a new feature set that would provide the user with additional and new features to an existing camera I would certainly consider paying if that feature set provided something I really felt I needed without wanting to buy a new camera.

However your last paragraph really strikes home with me. After using Olympus for 15 years my level of trust in camera companies is pretty much basement level. Purposely withholding tech in camera lines to then charge more for a 'firmware' upgrade would make me very suspicious as to the strategy of any camera company. With times being as tough as they supposedly are for companies I still scratch my head at some of the latest moves.

Silver

Clive99 · Jun 3, 2020

getochkn said:
Doug MacMillan said:

I think your premises are wrong and what you propose is a monumentally bad idea.

I have several software products that are constantly upgraded free of charge.

Click to expand...

So features of the Xpro3 and XT4 might not make it down to the XT3 and certainly not the XT30 despite same sensor and cpu because they don't have the time or money for it. Do you buy a new camera to get the better AF algorithm, distance scales, multi exposure features, classic negative, bleach bypass. Or would you pay for Fuji to give those to the XT3/XT30 features?

And for the number of software packages that will give you free updates for life, there is 100000 that will give small updates and big fixes for free but charge for big updates, so your premise is wrong because what you use final cut pro, that is probably subsidized to hell by apple.

Tough one. Personally, I would pay to get the updated AF on my XT3. I don't want an XT4..hate the flippy screen. Ambivalent about IBIS.

Truman Prevatt · Jun 3, 2020

R_U_Q_R_U said:
sshapiro said:

I assume the updates would only install on a camera with a specific serial number. Otherwise, a user who pays for updates could make them available, at no cost, to other users.

Click to expand...

One model:

Another obvious way is to sell a license with activation key. Sure I guess you could post the key online but it would be traceable to the purchaser. Like other software, piracy is to a large extent controlled by the ethics of the user.

Or as you suggest, at the time of purchase you enter your serial number and it is embedded in the firmware in real time before you download. So when you. go to install it the installer will match the serial numbers.

There are ways to do it. However, requiring the camera to be shipped back for install as Canon does is the obvious. Encrypted authentication could also be used which would require encryptions keys to be stored on the camera - related to the camera serial number. Of course there would be cost associated as Fuji would need to account for that, track it and maintain it and that cost would have to be factored into the F/W update cost or the cost of the camera.

There is a vast difference in real time F/W running in a piece of hardware and S/W running on a PC such as Capture One. Capture one doesn't require precise timing between parallel processes. With real time F/W timing issues, e.g., race conditions, can arise in unforeseen ways and be extremely difficult to find and fix. While the H/W in the XT4 is quite similar to the XT3 - there I am sure are differences I am sure. Minor H/W differences can become an issue in real time S/W.

A camera is not a general purpose S/W platform. The F/W is pretty much baked in no different that the H/W.

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Jazz1 · Jun 3, 2020

Truman Prevatt said:
getochkn said:

Jerry-astro said:

Sorry, but I can see little or no merit in your idea. There's not a lot of precedent for what you're recommending, and there are good reasons for it. Regular firmware updates, both to fix bugs and, in some cases, to add new functionality are both necessary and an excellent way to generate goodwill with a customer base. Fuji keeps its cameras up to date via periodic firmware updates and regularly uses the mechanism to fix bugs. But they also more uniquely use firmware updates as a way to extend the usability and life of a camera with functionality improvements. That is worth a ton of goodwill with their customers. Charging for these updates would provide minimal revenue and some resentment among customers who are used to seeing these appear for free. Right now, their periodic offering of functionality updates is somewhat of a differentiator in a crowded market. I see no upside to starting to charge for this, and I can definitely see it honking off many customers who have appreciated these updates for a good while now (count me among that group).

I wouldn't minimize the importance of customer goodwill. It can be a powerful differentiator in the market, and it also is an important factor in keep customers loyal to brand.

Click to expand...

If you read the article, it seems Fujis Kaizen updates are gone. They are spending too much money to give a 2 year old camera all the bells and whistles of the new model. It's not feasible and it's not going to last. How long since the XPro3 was released with the same tech as the XT30 and not even classic negative has trickled down nevermind things like the better low light AF, etc.

Click to expand...

Color me cynical. But the "Kaizen" seems more of a marketing ploy so they can get away with releasing cameras early that have not been sufficiently tested and not ready for prime time and fixing them later. The H1 and Pro3 come to mind but that's probably only because own both. With a two year development cycle as Fuji seems to be pursing - there's not a lot of time for updates that are not bug fixes or very low hanging fruit. In reality most of the " Kaizen" involved low hanging fruit. But at a 100 K a year plus benefits - you need to get the biggest bang out of you buck for your best engineers.

I wasn't sure how I stood on this question until I read the "low hanging fruit" comment. I think "pay Kaizen" pretty much kills the philosophy behind Kaizen. On the other hand I think the OP has brought to light a very interesting debate! Thank you for that.

If Fujifilm does a pay to play for updates they are going to confuse the difference between some kinds of bug fixes, versus true updates.

I feel we'd be entering the awful territory of, "It's not a bug, it's a feature", So we may have to pay up if you don't like the bug AKA a "feature". I guess what I’m trying to say that if a new feature comes into being, and you don’t want to pay for it, then I think it is a bug. Sorry to be cynical, as I have enjoyed and have been grateful for firmware updates on my various Fujifilm cameras.

Other than actual bug fixes have their been firmware updates on any of their cameras that have been mind boggling? If so maybe I'm over reacting to the concept. Or, have they just been playing catch-up with the hardware in order to get it out the door sooner?

If the camera hardware supports feature updates, Fujifilm should continue to support their loyal fans with free updates. Sure, Apple Computer does it, and I'm sure the initial cost (Apple isn't cheap, as I well know). But going to a subscription like update system just rubs me the wrong way.

Heck, I'm not a cheapskate! I buy Fujifilm and Apple products

ikaika777 · Jun 3, 2020

It’s bad enough I had to pay $70 for a battery charger for the X-T4 and they don’t even give you the little free flash unit anymore. I don’t want to pay for firmware updates.

3DPhotography · Jun 3, 2020

Kurgo said:
In no way, shape or form would that ever be abused by corporations that see users as walking banknotes...

What makes you possibly think that if users asked to pay more for something that's been offered for free, quite literally any company wouldn't take advantage of that and start selling more and more crippled products, under the pretense of "just pay and upgrade"? Fuji itself has very quickly been abandoning its famous "kaizen" modus operandi in recent times and I certainly wouldn't trust other companies, such as Nikon (the d600 shameful débacle is something I remember very very well, unlike most users, for some reason), not to do their best to bone their customers as much as they're allowed to.

Look at other tech-heavy products and please tell me which do you see charging for updates, because I'm pretty certain it's very few. Giving companies this idea of being able to charge for something they've been doing for free is basically handing them the rope. Not for me, nope.

I understand that you don't like it, but there are a number of electronic products in the networking arena that have a common hardware platform and software-enabled capabilities that can be remotely activated on payment. It can reduce cost for the company by increasing volume of the HW, and allow them to recover development cost for the SW. It's not terrible.

michaeladawson · Jun 3, 2020

I won’t pay for firmware updates. You say bug fix updates should stay free. That’s what I’d stick with if new feature updates cost money. X-T3, X-T4... I’ve seen no updates I’d pay money for. I currently have X-T2 and X-H1. No updates I can see that I’d pay for. The X-H2 will have features that can’t be passed to the X-H1. I’ll buy a new body.

HatWearingFool · Jun 3, 2020

michaeladawson said:
I won’t pay for firmware updates. You say bug fix updates should stay free. That’s what I’d stick with if new feature updates cost money. X-T3, X-T4... I’ve seen no updates I’d pay money for. I currently have X-T2 and X-H1. No updates I can see that I’d pay for. The X-H2 will have features that can’t be passed to the X-H1. I’ll buy a new body.

That’s fine, I’m not staying everyone should buy them. Just like I don’t think every x-t3 user should upgrade to an x-t4.

michaeladawson · Jun 3, 2020

Nailed it. Kaizen is a weak excuse for releasing cameras early and fixing them later. There are exceptions. But Kaizen in the early days was exactly this.

michaeladawson · Jun 3, 2020

HatWearingFool said:
michaeladawson said:

I won’t pay for firmware updates. You say bug fix updates should stay free. That’s what I’d stick with if new feature updates cost money. X-T3, X-T4... I’ve seen no updates I’d pay money for. I currently have X-T2 and X-H1. No updates I can see that I’d pay for. The X-H2 will have features that can’t be passed to the X-H1. I’ll buy a new body.

Click to expand...

That’s fine, I’m not staying everyone should buy them. Just like I don’t think every x-t3 user should upgrade to an x-t4.

I guess my point is that if there are enough people with my point of view then the price of a firmware update would have to be steep. What would you pay? $200, $300, more?

HatWearingFool · Jun 3, 2020

michaeladawson said:
HatWearingFool said:

michaeladawson said:

I won’t pay for firmware updates. You say bug fix updates should stay free. That’s what I’d stick with if new feature updates cost money. X-T3, X-T4... I’ve seen no updates I’d pay money for. I currently have X-T2 and X-H1. No updates I can see that I’d pay for. The X-H2 will have features that can’t be passed to the X-H1. I’ll buy a new body.

Click to expand...

That’s fine, I’m not staying everyone should buy them. Just like I don’t think every x-t3 user should upgrade to an x-t4.

Click to expand...

I guess my point is that if there are enough people with my point of view then the price of a firmware update would have to be steep. What would you pay? $200, $300, more?

How many people are outraged the x-t3 won’t see the x-t4 features. How many would she’ll out some cash to get those features?

Personally I’d spend 150-200 usd to update an x-t3 to x-t4 featture set. And I’d definitely pay 50-100 to get more modern film simulations onto my x-t20. Even more if I could also get some of the newer tweaks like curves, clarity, Chrome...

look at how much a capture one upgrade costs. Not everyone pays but many do to get new features.

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Richard Katris · Jun 3, 2020

Didn't Panasonic have after market F/W hacks that implemented lots of features on their top camera models before they actually offered those features in their own OEM F/W? Do we need some geeks w/Fuji products to do the same?

miroshi · Jun 4, 2020

I agree with you, I am customer and I want full support, not just for 1-2 years. Many others can judge me, but this is my opinion.

But actually the problem is the short life of a camera. You have XT-3, after year and a half they build XT-4 - 98% same camera, but with IBIS, new battery and few thousands rows of code in its software more.

An if you want faster AF (I do not, XT-3 is fast enough for me), you must sell your new camera and get the newer. But actually the camera life is more than 1.5 years. I used my K-x 7 or 8 years.

And really why they do not provide soft updates until the hardware is too old or slow, 4-5 years life sounds normal for me. And then give the customers really new camera, with new processor and whatever other parts camera has in it?

But because there are lot of people who what and can buy every year the latest camera, the choice of both options is perfect - new camera for those who want latest, software updates for those who are ok with the old body.

Optimus Prime Lens · Jun 4, 2020

My gut tells me it wound not be a great idea. I’m also not sure what they would have to charge to counter the loss of a sale of the ‘next’ model.

I’m also rather unhappy with their app to connect your phone etc. to your camera, to use as a remote shutter / download pictures directly to your phone or tablet. It was always a bit slow. However now it is totally unusable. I can’t even get it to connect to my camera. If they can’t get something like that right, I’d be very wary about paying for this sort of thing.

miroshi · Jun 4, 2020

Optimus Prime Lens said:
I’m also rather unhappy with their app to connect your phone etc. to your camera, to use as a remote shutter / download pictures directly to your phone or tablet. It was always a bit slow. However now it is totally unusable. I can’t even get it to connect to my camera. If they can’t get something like that right, I’d be very wary about paying for this sort of thing.

Be sure you are connected to the camera, you must disable auto choosing best wifi network. And if you use ad-blockers or similar app, you have to remove the camera app from the block list. Hope this will help you!

holashobby · Jun 4, 2020

HatWearingFool said:
Note this does not apply firmware fixes of bugs.

This isn't an entirely new idea because Panasonic has already charge for firmware updates to unlock advanced video features.

But I'd like to see Fujifilm (really all camera manufacturers) start charging for firmware feature updates for a couple of reasons:

1) This would incentivize them to upgrade old models. Fuji has stated they aren't sure how many X-t4 features will trickle back to the x-t3 because it costs money to write the update and they'd lose potential sales. If they charged for the update they wouldn't have to worry about lost sales and could cover development costs.

2) If firmware updates of old cameras became a money maker Fuji would be incentivized to hire more developers and provide more updates.

3) They'd be less likely to release new hardware just to keep money coming in when a software update to an existing model could keep them competitive and bring in money.

4) Fuji could sell a "base" firmware model and let user decide if they wanted to pay for features through firmware updates rather than release 2 slightly differentiated products.

The big concern people would have is that Fuji would hold back features to sell them in the future. But they are already doing that to differentiate models and to sell new ones.

IMO, this is an excellent proposal (I once started a sub-thread on this topic). Some camera manufacturers are already doing this. Panasonic, Nikon and Canon have paid released firmware updates. In other words, after-sales camera support is slowly moving in this direction. It is a paradigm shift, where one views the camera hardware as a platform separate from it's firmware.

While I prefer that firmware updates were free, it's a huge expense for companies and there is not much incentive to do it other than goodwill. Therefore a model, where I pay for new features such a focus limiter, new sims and improved low light focusing rather than buy a new x-pro3/x-t4 because the firmware/software not the hardware appeals sounds like a reasonable compromise

There will be some initial resistance from the market but if the updates are worthwhile, customers will come along. New camera models (like new computers) develop a distinct from from firmware and ontinue to feature hardware updates like new sensors, ibis, evf, processor etc.

holashobby · Jun 4, 2020

HatWearingFool said:
michaeladawson said:

HatWearingFool said:

michaeladawson said:

I won’t pay for firmware updates. You say bug fix updates should stay free. That’s what I’d stick with if new feature updates cost money. X-T3, X-T4... I’ve seen no updates I’d pay money for. I currently have X-T2 and X-H1. No updates I can see that I’d pay for. The X-H2 will have features that can’t be passed to the X-H1. I’ll buy a new body.

Click to expand...

That’s fine, I’m not staying everyone should buy them. Just like I don’t think every x-t3 user should upgrade to an x-t4.

Click to expand...

I guess my point is that if there are enough people with my point of view then the price of a firmware update would have to be steep. What would you pay? $200, $300, more?

Click to expand...

How many people are outraged the x-t3 won’t see the x-t4 features. How many would she’ll out some cash to get those features?

Personally I’d spend 150-200 usd to update an x-t3 to x-t4 featture set. And I’d definitely pay 50-100 to get more modern film simulations onto my x-t20. Even more if I could also get some of the newer tweaks like curves, clarity, Chrome...

look at how much a capture one upgrade costs. Not everyone pays but many do to get new features.

holashobby · Jun 4, 2020

Jerry-astro said:
And, BTW, starting to charge a reasonable fee for more substantial updates with feature improvements might serve to retain the notion of Kaizen updates but help fund the time and effort required to deliver them. I’m guessing the most users might not strongly object to this... but as I said, we’re all guessing here.

This will be a happy compromise IMO.

holashobby · Jun 4, 2020

Jazz1 said:
If the camera hardware supports feature updates, Fujifilm should continue to support their loyal fans with free updates. Sure, Apple Computer does it, and I'm sure the initial cost (Apple isn't cheap, as I well know). But going to a subscription like update system just rubs me the wrong way.

Heck, I'm not a cheapskate! I buy Fujifilm and Apple products

Apple + OSX is the platform. I am inclined to believe that you buy additional software for your apple computer besides the OS.

I'd like Fuji to start charging for firmware updates

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