My opinion as a complete newbie, for what it's worth - art or science?

Similarly, anyone who has never picked up a guitar before will probably say the exact same thing you're saying right now. Except I'm pretty sure it's much easier to learn how to use a camera than a guitar.
That's undoubtedly true, at least on the basis of pure technique. A guitar player though can get kudos for being a great mimic and just being able to play what someone else can. A photographer is more likely to be judged on things that are less purely technical like what kind of imagination and insight they have... how they're able to perceive the world. I actually believe that since photography is really so simple (relative to so many other pursuits) on a purely technical level that it actually requires more in the way of skills and imagination in all non-technical aspects in order to be considered really good at it. So it isn't really simpler all around, just simpler as far as basic technique. The learning curve part of it is very gentile, which makes it pretty fun for a beginner, but still can be plenty challenging when you get to a certain level with it...
I disagree. While beginner to intermediate and non musicians may admire a purely technical player, especially since a musical instrument is infinitely more difficult to master than a camera, to be admired by peers and knowledgeable non musicians a musician must master the creative aspects of music as well and that is a process that never ends.

--
Tom
 
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Hi Moti,, you wrote that -

"Disagree. The photography mode has nothing to do with the IQ which a phone compared to a real camera cannot provide.

My wife shoots mainly in auto mode, this haven't prevented her from becoming a Fellow of the Royal Photography Society, and to have part of her photography work chosen as part of GB official art collection.

Shooting in auto will help to become photographer in terms of subject and composition. You can deal with the rest of the technical stuff at a later stage".


That's what I was hoping someone would say and it's what I wanted to hear! Surely, as I've said, capturing the accident of the moment, for example, is more important than knowing your ISO from your elbow. Well it's definitely true at my novice level, anyway!

Dave
 
Hi Wes,

Yes, it was one of the first sites/blogs I visited once I started looking into all of this. It's the bit about being able to take it with you all the time, in your pocket, like a smartphone, and getting such amazing photos (always liked B&W photos) with such a little camera.

https://erickimphotography.com/blog/ricoh/

Cheers,

Dave
'I hope when I die my wife doesn't sell my guitars for the price I told her I paid for them'!
 
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/buying-guide-best-easy-to-use-cameras

Mind you, when I saw the first photo with the Canon, of the beer glasses, my first thought was that my iphone8 would take a better picture! Is it a bit blurred?
You're falling into that trap of seeing a single sample photo, not knowing who shot it, how they processed it or what their intended results were... and thinking "my _____ could do better than that".

The only comparison is the same shot, same processing, by the same person. Enlarging to whatever your desired size is, then compare. Would be better to just accept that they are different tools.

I only skimmed most of the thread but you sound like a Fender guy. Would you play a Strat if you want a thick sound? No. Can my Gibson Les Paul Custom sound like my Gretsch White Falcons? Not even close. Is my Epi Ultra III fretboard as fast my PRS McCarty? No, but it does have a Nanomag acoustic pick-up, stereo & USB outs.

Different tools, that won't give the same results.

If you're seeing evidence that your phone can do better than a camera, then stick with your phone. The stuff you shoot may not require anything better. But don't fool yourself into thinking they were meant to do the same thing.

Also... Thinking a GRIII will get you the same results someone else gets from a GRIII is also a mistake.

You may own the exact same Strat but I know 100% based on things you said, you don't sound like Gilmour or Trower.

Any camera will do. That's why the guitar analogy doesn't work.

I believe you are thinking way too much. I also believe you are relying too much on the camera to make you a better photographer.

That's not how it works.
 
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Similarly, anyone who has never picked up a guitar before will probably say the exact same thing you're saying right now. Except I'm pretty sure it's much easier to learn how to use a camera than a guitar.
I've been a musician for over 35 years. Guitar is one thing I could never get the hang of. After about a year of trying, I just sold it.
What instrument do you play?
Classically trained on trumpet (though really went down the jazz/funk/pop stream, and did some pit orchestra work), taught myself keyboard and EWI. I haven't played the trumpet now in 10 years, and actually gave up on all music about 2.5 years ago when I left the music school I worked for to become a full time photographer. Now that there's no photography going on, I'm back doing some music writing and production. I'm glad I didn't throw away my old studio computer. It's a Dell desktop from 2009, but still very capable of some complex arrangements. I have thousands invested in virtual instruments (it used to be my GAS), most of which was non-transferrable/sellable.
 
Hi Jonsi, yes, I have said on other posts that buying a Jeff Beck strat won't make you sound like Jeff Beck.

But as I wrote on another reply a few minutes ago, I love this guy's photos but I also love his attitude and I can see where he's coming from. I like the idea of having a really good camera that I can stick in my pocket, like my smartphone, but get better results. So, it is the camera, too. And when I read posts about the Sony equivalent I just keep reading that the GRII takes such sharp photos. It has an auto mode, so that's a start!

https://erickimphotography.com/blog/ricoh/

Anyway, I've bought a new Ricoh II from Amazon to day so I'll keep you posted!!

Cheers

Dave
 
Stringed instruments are tough to play because you have to be a contortionist with your fingers to play them. I played Trumpet in school but my main instruments are Bass and Keyboards. The bass is physically much harder to play than keyboards. Trumpet is also difficult because so much comes from your lips.
 
Only because the Fuji has more buttons and dials on the outside for direct control and requires less " menu diving" to access specific functions. This stops, or slows, your process and distracts you from thinking about exposure and composition.

Fujis are my favorite cameras for this reason. I can set the menus up the way I want in the beginning, assign the two or three menu functions I change regularly to buttons on the body, and shoot away for weeks at a time without ever hunting through a menu.

I won't offer much on the Sony RX100, since it is a camera I strongly dislike-- and I like most cameras. I actually went to buy one once, because on paper it was exactly what i wanted, picked it up and put it down again. Nasty slippery fiddly little soap bar. But that's just me. There are plenty of people who like them, and plenty more who put up with their ergonomic failings to get the small size and portability.
 
I won't offer much on the Sony RX100, since it is a camera I strongly dislike-- and I like most cameras. I actually went to buy one once, because on paper it was exactly what i wanted, picked it up and put it down again. Nasty slippery fiddly little soap bar. But that's just me. There are plenty of people who like them, and plenty more who put up with their ergonomic failings to get the small size and portability.
I think most people buy the stick on grip for that very reason. When I bought my RX100M1 8 years ago one of the first things I bought was the grip and it made a huge difference in the handling. The grip and the included wrist strap make carrying the camera easy. Why Sony doesn't include it with the camera is a mystery because at $14 they certainly aren't making much money on it?
 
Cheers - you've tried a Fuji XF10, then? Is it as 'bad' as some of the threads I've read or was it really a firmware update that fixed everything!?
 
Stringed instruments are tough to play because you have to be a contortionist with your fingers to play them. I played Trumpet in school but my main instruments are Bass and Keyboards. The bass is physically much harder to play than keyboards. Trumpet is also difficult because so much comes from your lips.
Yes, contorting the fingers was the thing I couldn't get past. I also had some arthritic symptoms with my hands that didn't help. I'm not sure I would ever have really mastered it. The string offsets never really made sense for me coming from both trumpet and piano which both have a more linear note selection method.
 
Stringed instruments are tough to play because you have to be a contortionist with your fingers to play them. I played Trumpet in school but my main instruments are Bass and Keyboards. The bass is physically much harder to play than keyboards. Trumpet is also difficult because so much comes from your lips.
Yes, contorting the fingers was the thing I couldn't get past. I also had some arthritic symptoms with my hands that didn't help. I'm not sure I would ever have really mastered it. The string offsets never really made sense for me coming from both trumpet and piano which both have a more linear note selection method.
Guitars are tuned in 4ths which makes scales and chords easier to play. Starting on the E or A string both major and minor scales can be played over 3 strings without changing your position. There is one way a guitar is easier than keyboards. No matter where you start the pattern is the same no matter what key you are in. With keyboards every key has different finger patterns. One advantage with stringed instruments is you can use different tunings so you are not stuck with the standard way of doing it.
 
Hi Jonsi, yes, I have said on other posts that buying a Jeff Beck strat won't make you sound like Jeff Beck.
Ok, I missed that. As I said, I only skimmed. I was going by the equipment you mentioned using.
But as I wrote on another reply a few minutes ago, I love this guy's photos but I also love his attitude and I can see where he's coming from. I like the idea of having a really good camera that I can stick in my pocket, like my smartphone, but get better results. So, it is the camera, too.
But those results you desire will only come from a dedicated camera. Same reason John 5 plays a Tele and not a Ukulele. But.. he plays many different Teles and gets the same great results.

When I say "it's not the camera", I'm not including phones.
And when I read posts about the Sony equivalent I just keep reading that the GRII takes such sharp photos. It has an auto mode, so that's a start!

https://erickimphotography.com/blog/ricoh/

Anyway, I've bought a new Ricoh II from Amazon to day so I'll keep you posted!!
Great. Enjoy it and good luck. :)
Cheers

Dave

--
'I hope when I die my wife doesn't sell my guitars for the price I told her I paid for them'!
 
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True - but my guitar hasn't changed since I bought it (other than the odd dink here and there), and how I play it hasn't altered. It didn't come with a 100 page manual. It's a guitar - I would probably get my money back - or even make a profit - if I sold them all tomorrow. It goes - guitar-lead-amp and it has been that way since I bought my first electric guitar in 1974, and it has been that way since the first one was invented. I was at someone's house recently playing a 1930s Gibson acoustic. 90 years old. To me, it was an old guitar, sounded like an old guitar, but nice to play. It's probably worth a few quid.

I wonder what hassle you would be having now trying to use a camera made in the 1930s?

All I was trying to say is that these premium cameras should be easier to use. The technology already exists but all the industry seems to want to do is make it look like you need a degree in Photography just to use one. Onwards and upwards, eh! I'm sure that when I get my GRIII it will all become clear!
I think the only reason why you think these cameras are too complicated is because you haven't tried to learn how to use them. There are also video tutorials for specific camera models that make it easy to learn whichever one you have or want to get.

Similarly, anyone who has never picked up a guitar before will probably say the exact same thing you're saying right now. Except I'm pretty sure it's much easier to learn how to use a camera than a guitar.
You see, I'd disagree. Well, it depends on your age, I guess. It's a lot easier to manipulate your fingers when you're younger, but, to be honest, if you learn just a few basic chords at the 'folky' end of the guitar, the first few frets, you're on your way to playing Bob Dylan's entire repertoire (Happy Birthday, Bob!). Learn a few barre chords and you've nailed most of Status Quo's hits. Things become interesting when you attempt to play at what we call the 'dusty end', for the solos and twiddly bits! You see most used guitars with all the wear on the frets at the other end and after say the 5th fret, the neck's pristine.

As I've become older, I've become impatient, grumpy and find it difficult to grasp new stuff nowadays. I never learnt how to program a video recorder (did anybody?).

Anyway, I'll give this photography thing a good go.
 
My guess is they want to.market the camera as truly pocket sized/the smallest ever. Personally, I sacrifice zoom for a great prime lens and a crop sensor and carry a Fuji X-M1 with the 27mm-- not much bigger than the RX100 with a grip.

But it's all a matter of personal taste.
 
No, I have never handled an XF10- I was speaking of Fujis in general.

My own personal choice in that area is an X-M1 with the 27mm f/2.8. I heartily recommend this combination to you if you like a slightly longer lens.

If I wanted the the 28mm equivalent field of view, I would definite prefer the older X70. I have handled one of those several times- such a cool little camera. Unfortunately, lots of others agree and it has become a bit of a cult classic. Still, I would buy one over either the XF10 or the Ricoh.
 
Similarly, anyone who has never picked up a guitar before will probably say the exact same thing you're saying right now. Except I'm pretty sure it's much easier to learn how to use a camera than a guitar.
That's undoubtedly true, at least on the basis of pure technique. A guitar player though can get kudos for being a great mimic and just being able to play what someone else can. A photographer is more likely to be judged on things that are less purely technical like what kind of imagination and insight they have... how they're able to perceive the world. I actually believe that since photography is really so simple (relative to so many other pursuits) on a purely technical level that it actually requires more in the way of skills and imagination in all non-technical aspects in order to be considered really good at it. So it isn't really simpler all around, just simpler as far as basic technique. The learning curve part of it is very gentile, which makes it pretty fun for a beginner, but still can be plenty challenging when you get to a certain level with it...
I disagree. While beginner to intermediate and non musicians may admire a purely technical player, especially since a musical instrument is infinitely more difficult to master than a camera, to be admired by peers and knowledgeable non musicians a musician must master the creative aspects of music as well and that is a process that never ends.
I don't disagree with that... at least not entirely. As a musician (an intermediate, if I'm being kind, amateur) and big time fan, I'm much more interested in the creative side rather than the kind of players who may be virtuosos, but who's style isn't particularly original. I'm a big fan of Brian Eno a guy who's been super influential in the music and yet claims that he has only the most rudimental instrumental skills (I think that he undersells himself though). Then there's a certain class of musicians who though they aren't on Eno's level of genius are able to make a living by having the technical expertise to be great mimics, without any kind of creative imagination whatsoever... think cover bands...





What I'm saying though is that with music it's much more weighted towards technique. If you don't have any experience playing an instrument, you pretty much can't play it. You actually need to develop some level of skills to even play the simplest music. Photography is different in that one can know zero about the process and still be able to take a photo. Give a bunch of kids some guitars who have never been exposed to them and in a couple of hours none of them will be playing anything that sounds like music. had the same kinds some instant cameras and even though none of them understand anything about the technical side of photography there might still be one or two of these kinds who have an innate aesthetic sense and the creativity to shoot a compelling series of photographs.





I'm merely saying that in mediums where the bar is lower as far as technique goes that there are often greater expectations for the creative side of it.
 

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