if you are new to m4/3s read this

knickerhawk · May 13, 2020

mount evans said:
SirHarry said:

Gonna wait anyway until that sony 47 megapixel m43 sensor appears in a panny or oly.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, Poe's Law has spread to photography and I have no idea if you are joking. Is this something that is actually in the works? If so, it would be terrible. The amount of sensor area sacrificed to the inactive "gutter" between photosites would increase by over 50%. And even with perfect glass, this resolution would be wasted for any f-number larger than 2.4.

The most recent rumor about the GH6 is that it will use a 41mp BSI Sony sensor, so you don't need to worry about "gutters," not that it was much of an issue anyway since all modern sensors use gapless microlenses.

mount evans said:
And once it exists, there's no going back. All the new m4/3 cameras will have it.

It's called "progress" and it's about time...

Donald B · May 13, 2020

SirHarry said:
Donald B said:

SirHarry said:

There is a leaked boardroom meeting (boss with employee) about Depth From Defocus compared to Canons dual pixel autofocus.

Click to expand...

Thank god i chose the em12 video af is first class.

Don

Click to expand...

Good for you Don. I wish I could afford an e-m1 ii or iii or even the g9, but I cant. Still at only 49 focus points with my gx85. And you know, the autofocus DOES deviate with only 49 focus points, not so with 121 or 255 focus points.

Gonna wait anyway until that sony 47 megapixel m43 sensor appears in a panny or oly.

Cheers,

Dont wait, its cheaper buying a lightly used sony with a new new lens my a7r2 7000clicks + a open box 45 1.8 lens cost $ 1800 Australian

Don

SirHarry · May 13, 2020

mount evans said:
SirHarry said:

Gonna wait anyway until that sony 47 megapixel m43 sensor appears in a panny or oly.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, Poe's Law has spread to photography and I have no idea if you are joking. Is this something that is actually in the works? If so, it would be terrible. The amount of sensor area sacrificed to the inactive "gutter" between photosites would increase by over 50%. And even with perfect glass, this resolution would be wasted for any f-number larger than 2.4.

And once it exists, there's no going back. All the new m4/3 cameras will have it.

Yep. 47 Megapixel micro four thirds sensor.

How's your dutch?

Loading…

tweakers.net

mount evans · May 13, 2020

SirHarry said:
Yep. 47 Megapixel micro four thirds sensor.

How's your dutch?

https://tweakers.net/nieuws/157888/...ensor-die-8k-videos-op-30fps-kan-opnemen.html

That page seems to be talking about video only. I hope that is why it mentions a bit depth of 10 bits for all the modes.

Wu Jiaqiu · May 13, 2020

SirHarry said:
mount evans said:

SirHarry said:

Gonna wait anyway until that sony 47 megapixel m43 sensor appears in a panny or oly.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, Poe's Law has spread to photography and I have no idea if you are joking. Is this something that is actually in the works? If so, it would be terrible. The amount of sensor area sacrificed to the inactive "gutter" between photosites would increase by over 50%. And even with perfect glass, this resolution would be wasted for any f-number larger than 2.4.

And once it exists, there's no going back. All the new m4/3 cameras will have it.

Click to expand...

Yep. 47 Megapixel micro four thirds sensor.

How's your dutch?

https://tweakers.net/nieuws/157888/...ensor-die-8k-videos-op-30fps-kan-opnemen.html

it mentions it should be used in surveillance and industrial cameras, but a variant might get used in consumer cameras, when and where is unclear

SirHarry · May 13, 2020

mount evans said:
SirHarry said:

Yep. 47 Megapixel micro four thirds sensor.

How's your dutch?

https://tweakers.net/nieuws/157888/...ensor-die-8k-videos-op-30fps-kan-opnemen.html

Click to expand...

That page seems to be talking about video only. I hope that is why it mentions a bit depth of 10 bits for all the modes.

Yes. 8k. Rumours are this sensor will appear in the panasonic gh6.

Loading…

petapixel.com

And gh6 can shoot photos too

SirHarry · May 13, 2020

Wu Jiaqiu said:
SirHarry said:

mount evans said:

SirHarry said:

Gonna wait anyway until that sony 47 megapixel m43 sensor appears in a panny or oly.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, Poe's Law has spread to photography and I have no idea if you are joking. Is this something that is actually in the works? If so, it would be terrible. The amount of sensor area sacrificed to the inactive "gutter" between photosites would increase by over 50%. And even with perfect glass, this resolution would be wasted for any f-number larger than 2.4.

And once it exists, there's no going back. All the new m4/3 cameras will have it.

Click to expand...

Yep. 47 Megapixel micro four thirds sensor.

How's your dutch?

https://tweakers.net/nieuws/157888/...ensor-die-8k-videos-op-30fps-kan-opnemen.html

Click to expand...

it mentions it should be used in surveillance and industrial cameras, but a variant might get used in consumer cameras, when and where is unclear

GodSpeaks · May 13, 2020

Dennis1972 said:
<snip>

Imo single point is KING in both DSLR and mirrorless. Personally i would never ever use multi letting the camera to pick where to focus in the cluster which often result in loose mediocre result.

Agree and to add to what you said, combine single point AF (pinpoint AF, or whatever the smallest AF point mode is called) with BBF (yes, back button AF) and you have the greatest control over what the camera focuses on.

That's how I shoot on ALL my cameras (DSLR and mirrorless) and I rarely get an OOF shot.

It is my experience that the majority of the complainers just expect the camera to do everything for them and to never get it wrong. That's the wrong approach. The person using the camera is, or should be, in control. But that means making an effort to learn what works for you, and what doesn't. You also learn the limitations of what the camera can and cannot do.

Failure to put the effort in to learn is the root cause. It's a lot easier to whine on the internet.

Raist3d · May 13, 2020

seems as much of source of criticism in threads here as any. And it's in quite a sizable group brought up by people using m/43rds bringing in other formats into the discussion because they feel the system is the best at almost everything "that matters."

So my first recommendation if you are new to m43rds is simply accept you got into a system with pros and cons- like every other system, and acknowledge the pros and cons of the rest too.

Look at it for what it is- a tool to make your alleged photography. You could use I exclusively or if you have the wants/needs/budget in combination with some other system- just like everything else.

Not to look as a a religion, tribal group think get together, an extension of your ego/self-confidence.

--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell

n3eg · May 13, 2020

I have always used single point focus, and I know how to make it work. No problems here in micro four thirds after 7 years.

Humansvillian · May 13, 2020

After awhile behind a MFT camera, a feeling of supreme arrogance tends to settle in on the MFT addict.

You carry around a camera that is the smallest possible system with interchangeable lenses that can take professional quality images. Nobody worshipping at the altar of the last dying quiver of technical image quality can possibly compete with your gear for portability and stealth.

Equipped with a tiny camera having a lens with a 28-300mm eqv. focal range, you become confident that nobody is safe from your and your camera, in the entire neighborhood, and even beyond.

And should you want to have more IQ all you need to do is select RAW and go to work in post processing, if 4mb JPEG's straight from the camera don't suit you.

A MFT camera will never all the way quite equal the image quality of a camera that uses a bigger sensor, and a bigger camera, and a bigger lens.

But while those big cameras are home sleeping in drawers, you are out taking high quality images, more than the equal of film and nearly as good as the very best big cameras on earth.

It's all part of MFT addiction, except you don't have to attend meetings and there's never a search for a cure.

--
Humansville is a town in the Missouri Ozarks

Cheezr · May 13, 2020

JacquesC said:
joeletx said:

JacquesC said:

joeletx said:

Agree mostly with what said. My pet peeve with some DSLR to m4/3 requests was the ability to do exposure compensation in manual mode with auto ISO on. To me! this must be the most oxymoron thing to do. Why shoot in manual mode then?

Click to expand...

Manual exposure mode allows you to select the exact shutter speed and aperture that you want, and with auto-ISO enabled exposure compensation effectively allows you to adjust ISO in a more convenient way. This obviously depends on whether the camera in question allows you to do this and whether it is more convenient than simply adjusting ISO.

I have used this very effectively in a theatre environment where lighting changes rapidly and unpredictably - most of the time normal exposure (M mode, Auto-ISO enabled) works fine, but if you need to very quickly change the exposure then it is handy to have the ability to do so via EC.

Click to expand...

I fail to see what you are leading to. Both of my E-M1 I and II don't event have EC (+/-) dedicated button; my DSLR E-3 and E-5 do have them.

On either E-M1 bodies, in M-Mode, with Live View Boost set to "Off", Lever-1 is the EC adjustment. The back wheel adjusts the shutter speed and the front adjust the aperture. I you rock back and forth either of these wheels, the view in your EVF or on the back LCD changes from dark to bright as the exposure is compensated according the the rapid light changing condition, very conveniently. I can't think of a situation, where I need a dedicated (+/-) EC function.

If you switch to Lever-2, rocking back and forth the front wheel will change the ISO which in turn shows your LCD or EVF going from dark to bright or vice versa. The front wheel in this case, is my (+/-) button. The new E-M1X and E-M1 III do have the dedicated ISO button, so that is kind of third EC option in M-Mode.

I can only speak of OMD m43 bodies and maybe that is where you and I don't see the common ground.

Click to expand...

I'm trying to explain why it is sometimes convenient (even necessary) to be able to apply EC when shooting in M mode with auto-ISO enabled.

Example: Imagine I am shooting dancers on a theatre stage where the lighting is uneven across the stage and also changing brightness continuously. Because light levels are generally on the low side I want to use an aperture of f2.8, and I want to use a shutter speed of 1/400sec to avoid motion blur of the dancers. With auto-ISO enabled I am happy that my exposure will be correct all the time, even if light levels change rapidly. These settings might be perfectly good for 95% of the time, BUT if a dancer comes on stage wearing a highly reflective white costume I might find that the costume causes over exposure. In this instance I would like to dial in -1EV compensation without having to change aperture or shutter speed (or having to revert to setting ISO manually). With my EM10 I cannot do this because it does not have a way of applying EC while in Manual mode with auto-ISO. With some other cameras I can dial in EC because they do have a separate function button (Nikon) or dial (Fujifilm) that allows me to apply EC.

I hope this makes more sense to you now.

perfectly doable with at least an em1.2 or 1.3. just go into dial function in the cog menu and for m mode change one of the 4 spots to be +/- . bingo. I have shutter and f no for lever at 1 and iso and +/- with lever at 2.

M mode with auto iso and exposure compensation and I must mention that someone on this forum taught this to me so hope this helps.

JacquesC · May 13, 2020

Cheezr said:
JacquesC said:

I'm trying to explain why it is sometimes convenient (even necessary) to be able to apply EC when shooting in M mode with auto-ISO enabled.

Example: Imagine I am shooting dancers on a theatre stage where the lighting is uneven across the stage and also changing brightness continuously. Because light levels are generally on the low side I want to use an aperture of f2.8, and I want to use a shutter speed of 1/400sec to avoid motion blur of the dancers. With auto-ISO enabled I am happy that my exposure will be correct all the time, even if light levels change rapidly. These settings might be perfectly good for 95% of the time, BUT if a dancer comes on stage wearing a highly reflective white costume I might find that the costume causes over exposure. In this instance I would like to dial in -1EV compensation without having to change aperture or shutter speed (or having to revert to setting ISO manually). With my EM10 I cannot do this because it does not have a way of applying EC while in Manual mode with auto-ISO. With some other cameras I can dial in EC because they do have a separate function button (Nikon) or dial (Fujifilm) that allows me to apply EC.

I hope this makes more sense to you now.

Click to expand...

perfectly doable with at least an em1.2 or 1.3. just go into dial function in the cog menu and for m mode change one of the 4 spots to be +/- . bingo. I have shutter and f no for lever at 1 and iso and +/- with lever at 2.

M mode with auto iso and exposure compensation and I must mention that someone on this forum taught this to me so hope this helps.

Thanks!

I believe the EM5.3 offers the same

SteveY80 · May 14, 2020

Trevor Carpenter said:
What stirred this message in me is yet more threads about m4/3s focusing. I have been responding to m4/3s question for a few years saying avoid single point focus but still people pile in thinking "what does he know, I've been using single point for ever, I know it's the right way to go". My suggestion has always been start with custom multi, it works.

Custom multi might work well for you, your camera, and the photographs you're taking, but you should consider that that may not hold true for other people.

Personally I like being able to choose where in the frame I'm focusing with as much precision as possible. I value being able to quickly move the point where I want it and have the camera focus on that spot.

This is less of an issue with the G9/GH5's thanks to their 225 AF points. With those cameras the smallest custom multi star/cross pattern isn't much bigger than a single focus point.

On cameras with fewer focus points (i.e. lower end models like the G90/GX9 with only 49 points) the individual points are larger and even the smallest pattern takes up a significant chunk of the frame.

Vs.

Even reduced to the minimum 5-point cross, the custom multi pattern on 49 point AF cameras can be just too big to e.g. put the point of focus on an animal's eye. The larger focus area can make it much harder to avoid the camera focusing on a high contract background rather than the intended subject.

This comes from personal experience of trying different modes, not a resistance to change.

Trevor Carpenter said:
When you are comfortable go and play with the other focus modes and see if they work "better for you". Similarly the ridiculous repeating rants about "my focusing doesn't work, CAF and tracking are useless". They are not useless but throw away your DSLR notes and remember you have a new camera. Start with SAF and when you think you understand what it does on your new camera spread your wings, you will find that there are times when CAF works very well.

There are also times when it doesn't work well at all, especially when talking about lower end bodies, rather than Olympus cameras with PDAF or top of the line DFD like the G9/GH5.

Saying that it's "useless" may be hyperbole, but my GX9's CAF is certainly extremely poor compared with the capabilities of many other cameras. For shooting action it's significantly inferior even compared with the first DSLR I owned nearly a decade ago. That isn't down to me relying on my "DSLR notes" - there are other mirrorless cameras that easily and reliably nail shots that'd likely end up out of focus regardless of the settings I use on my GX9.

SteveY80 · May 14, 2020

joeletx said:
Agree mostly with what said. My pet peeve with some DSLR to m4/3 requests was the ability to do exposure compensation in manual mode with auto ISO on. To me! this must be the most oxymoron thing to do. Why shoot in manual mode then?

Personally I use auto-ISO in manual about 90% of the time because for me it offers the best of both worlds: full creative control with the speed of an auto-mode. Having access to exposure compensation is essential to avoid burnt out highlights in some lighting situations.

Is it really that hard to imagine a scenario where someone would want to be able to control both depth of field and motion blur, without the added inconvenience of needing to control image brightness by micromanaging ISO?

That lack of that feature on older m4/3 bodies drove me crazy. For me it was the worst thing about the system and I'm very glad that Panasonic and Olympus fixed it.

SteveY80 · May 14, 2020

Dennis1972 said:
Trevor Carpenter said:

Dennis1972 said:

Trevor Carpenter said:

What stirred this message in me is yet more threads about m4/3s focusing. I have been responding to m4/3s question for a few years saying avoid single point focus but still people pile in thinking "what does he know, I've been using single point for ever, I know it's the right way to go". My suggestion has always been start with custom multi, it works.

Click to expand...

I have to disagree.

The old school DSLR user sticks with "center point only" due to the extra sensitivity (crosstype) in center. They also tend to use focus-recompose technique.

I always use single point focus (or eye detection in portrait shot) in mirrorless, only difference is I am no longer tied in the center as mirrorless uses PDAF which usually has more points and they all have the same high sensitivity unlike some older DSLR.

Multi is nothing new, most DSLR can do 5/9 points or more. Problem is multi can never be as accurate as single point when critical focus is required. Think nailing focus on person's eye in a portrait shot.

Imo single point is KING in both DSLR and mirrorless. Personally i would never ever use multi letting the camera to pick where to focus in the cluster which often result in loose mediocre result.

Click to expand...

My post was instigated by people saying exactly the opposite, they have trouble with single point on m4/3s

Click to expand...

If they have trouble with single point on m43 then I'd say it's most likely due to the poor and slow implementation of CDAF on most low to midrange Olympus/Panasonic cameras.

Using multi might get the camera to focus on something or somewhere, but it doesn't make it any better nor accurate than single point on DSLR.

The specific quirk of Panasonic's AF system discussed in that thread was the way it treats the single AF point as a suggestion of where to focus, rather than restricting itself purely to that precise area. Even with the single smallest AF point fully enclosed by the intended subject, it can still decide to focus on a higher contrast area alongside it.

In contrast, custom multi does seem to restrict the focus area to those selected AF points. It'll fail to focus if they aren't covering something it can focus on, while it'll focus on something nearby in the frame when using the single focus point.

Trevor Carpenter · May 14, 2020

I'm not suggesting that everybody uses custom multi. My observations are aimed at people who have used single point on previous cameras and disappointed with the results they get on m4/3s. My main suggestion is throw away preconception and learn how to use the camera as if you'd never used one previously. Custom multi is just one of many options as is milking the knowledge of people who find single point extremely usable. Just don't think "I've always done it this way therefore my m4/3s camera is crap".

Recent and not so recent pictures here https://trevorc28a.wixsite.com/trevspics

SteveY80 · May 14, 2020

Trevor Carpenter said:
I'm not suggesting that everybody uses custom multi. My observations are aimed at people who have used single point on previous cameras and disappointed with the results they get on m4/3s. My main suggestion is throw away preconception and learn how to use the camera as if you'd never used one previously. Custom multi is just one of many options as is milking the knowledge of people who find single point extremely usable. Just don't think "I've always done it this way therefore my m4/3s camera is crap".

I don't think it's bad advice to suggest that people try different settings with an open mind and see what works for them. At the same time I think that disappointing results are often at least partly down to disappointing camera performance.

I think m4/3 fans are far too quick to blame "user error" and make excuses for how quirky and unreliable certain features actually are.

Panasonic probably have the worst AF of any modern camera system, at least when looking at anything lower end than the G9/GH5. That's not to say that it's "crap" or useless, or anything like that, but it's hardly surprising that someone coming from another camera system would notice and comment on its deficiencies.

Raist3d · May 15, 2020

Providing evidence to my point ;-) unless you want it all Jin good old hearted sarcasm ;-)

Humansvillian · May 15, 2020

Raist3d said:
Providing evidence to my point ;-) unless you want it all Jin good old hearted sarcasm ;-)

Over 80 years ago a photographer named Dorthea Lange snapped a series of pictures on her Argus C-3. It wasn't the best camera available, but it worked well enough for the image:

Small, portable, capable, affordable, and hung around your neck.

From an Argus to a PL-1, it's all the same concept.

We many not take the next Migrant Mother, but by God we'uns is a workin' at it and havin' fun doin' it.

--

Humansville is a town in the Missouri Ozarks

if you are new to m4/3s read this

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