The Long Slow Process of Learning and Applying New Applications

It's a perfect time to evaluate new Software Image Editing Apps, during these COVID19 Crisis "Stay at Home" lock downs. And it seems that there are at this same time, a profusion of applications that are reaching maturity and notoriety, enough to be worth looking at. For me that has meant Capture One Pro and Affinity Photo/Designer/Publisher. I downloaded DarkTable, but with so much to evaluate, I consider it shelved.

On the one hand the new applications are a refreshing breeze of new refinements and utility, but on the other, a burden of time consuming Learning Curves, often with very rudimentary sparse documentation, supported by some Videos.

It helps immensely to have an intuitive sense about what is desirable in an Image Editing Software Application and of course, experience with their predecessors.

After banging around with Capture One Pro for the past weeks, I am now prepared to put it to work. The Affinity applications are still being evaluated.

I might suggest for others who have elected to jump in for new Image Editing Software, a few things, 1) Get a grip on the Interface, 2) Identify areas that can be used sooner than later in your normal workflows, 3) Get a good grip on non-destructive Edits offered by the Apps and Document Access Management (DAM) features offered and finally 4) schedule a deeper look into the more advanced and obtuse features after the more common features that fit workflows are mastered.

The new tools should be somewhat usable as soon as possible to allow their usage as the world comes back online. Being bogged and mired in trying to come to grips with features that won't immediately lend themselves to objectives should be tertiary, not primary or secondary considerations.

Oh, and need I mention looking at how the new applications might be integrated with existing applications as part of Multi-application Workflows?

Don't overload the brain cells.

--
"If you are among those who believe that it has all been done already and nothing new can be achieved, you've murdered your own artistry before ever letting it live. You abort it in its fetal state. There is much that has yet to be spoken in art and composition and it grows with the passage of time. Evolving technologies, world environments and ideologies all drive change in thoughts, passion and expression. There is no way that it can all ever be done already. And therein lies the venue for the creative artist, a venue that is as diverse as the universe is unmapped and unexplored." - Quote from FlyingLentris
~
flyinglentris in LLOMA

I downloaded both GIMP and darktable. While darktable looks complex it's because it has been modified over the years by a lot of volunteer programmers. It really can be pretty simple to get an image equivalent to SOOC jpg. GIMP is another story. I also purchased Affinity Photo and have mostly switched to it for editing my jpg's. I don't primarily shoot raw, so I'm not worried about the fact that (many) comments slag off AP's raw developer module. I like the edit environment. So I have shelved GIMP (for now anyhow).

I have to say the pixl.us forum is a great resource for open source photography tools.

flyinglentris said:

It's a perfect time to evaluate new Software Image Editing Apps, during these COVID19 Crisis "Stay at Home" lock downs. And it seems that there are at this same time, a profusion of applications that are reaching maturity and notoriety, enough to be worth looking at. For me that has meant Capture One Pro and Affinity Photo/Designer/Publisher. I downloaded DarkTable, but with so much to evaluate, I consider it shelved.

On the one hand the new applications are a refreshing breeze of new refinements and utility, but on the other, a burden of time consuming Learning Curves, often with very rudimentary sparse documentation, supported by some Videos.

Click to expand...

flyinglentris said:

It helps immensely to have an intuitive sense about what is desirable in an Image Editing Software Application

Click to expand...

in terms of features?

flyinglentris said:

and of course, experience with their predecessors.

After banging around with Capture One Pro for the past weeks, I am now prepared to put it to work. The Affinity applications are still being evaluated.

I might suggest for others who have elected to jump in for new Image Editing Software, a few things, 1) Get a grip on the Interface,

Click to expand...

I would add her: Be open-minded and challenge your expectations, if something works different than you expected. For example, if you try darktable: Don't expect that it should be used like Lightroom, just because it looks similar. Many darktable newbies tend to complain about the order of modules, which looks random at the first glance, but it is actually pretty meaningful. The layer concept in darktable is somewhat closer to PhotoShop than to LR or C1. So get a grip on the basic concepts and philosophies of a particular application.

Thinking in concepts and being able to abstract helps a lot to approach new applications. A simple example are layers and masks. Many people tend to mix these into a single concept, probably because applications like LR or C1 make it appear like this. In fact they are distinct concepts, which can be combined.

flyinglentris said:

2) Identify areas that can be used sooner than later in your normal workflows, 3) Get a good grip on non-destructive Edits offered by the Apps and Document Access Management (DAM) features offered and finally 4) schedule a deeper look into the more advanced and obtuse features after the more common features that fit workflows are mastered.

Click to expand...

Workflows can be seen at different levels. The can be strict recipies like "click here and then do this". But they can also be a generic technique how to use a tool in a certain way (e.g. linear RGB workflow in darktable).

I think most workflows and techniques will be learned from textual tutorials or videos. IMHO is important to focus on content that is created by people, who are skilled and passionate about using the software you want to learn. Again, an example with respect to darktable: There are tons of videos created by LR people, who are "evaluating" alternatives. They often try to give introductions, but most of them are simply misleading (not to say bulls**t) and are not a good way to get a grip on darktable. Don't waste time with watching reviews. If you want to learn C1, watch videos from passionate and skilled C1 users in action. If you want to learn darktable watch videos from passionate darktable users or developers, who explain background knowledge.

flyinglentris said:

The new tools should be somewhat usable as soon as possible to allow their usage as the world comes back online. Being bogged and mired in trying to come to grips with features that won't immediately lend themselves to objectives should be tertiary, not primary or secondary considerations.

Click to expand...

flyinglentris said:

Oh, and need I mention looking at how the new applications might be integrated with existing applications as part of Multi-application Workflows?

Don't overload the brain cells.

Click to expand...

His Dudeness said:

flyinglentris said:

It's a perfect time to evaluate new Software Image Editing Apps, during these COVID19 Crisis "Stay at Home" lock downs. And it seems that there are at this same time, a profusion of applications that are reaching maturity and notoriety, enough to be worth looking at. For me that has meant Capture One Pro and Affinity Photo/Designer/Publisher. I downloaded DarkTable, but with so much to evaluate, I consider it shelved.

On the one hand the new applications are a refreshing breeze of new refinements and utility, but on the other, a burden of time consuming Learning Curves, often with very rudimentary sparse documentation, supported by some Videos.

It helps immensely to have an intuitive sense about what is desirable in an Image Editing Software Application

Click to expand...

in terms of features?

Click to expand...

It's hard to get away from that term "Features", especially since all Tools, Panels, Menu Options and so forth are typically synonymous as features or options. What else is there, except for the intent of combining features? ... the intent of the application overall?

His Dudeness said:

His Dudeness said:

and of course, experience with their predecessors.

After banging around with Capture One Pro for the past weeks, I am now prepared to put it to work. The Affinity applications are still being evaluated.

I might suggest for others who have elected to jump in for new Image Editing Software, a few things, 1) Get a grip on the Interface,

Click to expand...

I would add her: Be open-minded and challenge your expectations, if something works different than you expected. For example, if you try darktable: Don't expect that it should be used like Lightroom, just because it looks similar. Many darktable newbies tend to complain about the order of modules, which looks random at the first glance, but it is actually pretty meaningful. The layer concept in darktable is somewhat closer to PhotoShop than to LR or C1. So get a grip on the basic concepts and philosophies of a particular application.

Click to expand...

If you ultimately wind up understanding an application so well that you can use its "Features" to achieve something other than what was intended, you should have a fair grip on the Interface to begin with. Such inventive use is not possible without such an understanding and ultimately, when shared about, leads to not just new techniques, but additional coded functionality.

His Dudeness said:

Thinking in concepts and being able to abstract helps a lot to approach new applications. A simple example are layers and masks. Many people tend to mix these into a single concept, probably because applications like LR or C1 make it appear like this. In fact they are distinct concepts, which can be combined.

Click to expand...

I don't have an argument with conceptualization of functionalities.

His Dudeness said:

His Dudeness said:

2) Identify areas that can be used sooner than later in your normal workflows, 3) Get a good grip on non-destructive Edits offered by the Apps and Document Access Management (DAM) features offered and finally 4) schedule a deeper look into the more advanced and obtuse features after the more common features that fit workflows are mastered.

Click to expand...

Workflows can be seen at different levels. The can be strict recipies like "click here and then do this". But they can also be a generic technique how to use a tool in a certain way (e.g. linear RGB workflow in darktable).

Click to expand...

Workflows must be adaptable, as everybody bends their flows to meet their own objectives. Applying a strict workflow from recipes in anythings is too confining to bear.

His Dudeness said:

I think most workflows and techniques will be learned from textual tutorials or videos. IMHO is important to focus on content that is created by people, who are skilled and passionate about using the software you want to learn. Again, an example with respect to darktable: There are tons of videos created by LR people, who are "evaluating" alternatives. They often try to give introductions, but most of them are simply misleading (not to say bulls**t) and are not a good way to get a grip on darktable. Don't waste time with watching reviews. If you want to learn C1, watch videos from passionate and skilled C1 users in action. If you want to learn darktable watch videos from passionate darktable users or developers, who explain background knowledge.

Click to expand...

Seek guides from such examples, not strict procedures.

His Dudeness said:

His Dudeness said:

The new tools should be somewhat usable as soon as possible to allow their usage as the world comes back online. Being bogged and mired in trying to come to grips with features that won't immediately lend themselves to objectives should be tertiary, not primary or secondary considerations.

Oh, and need I mention looking at how the new applications might be integrated with existing applications as part of Multi-application Workflows?

Don't overload the brain cells.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Good advice

I have taken the opportunity to learn a new workflow with primarily 3 programs. I have found that On1 allows me to do thinks that I found difficult previously. I am using and learning affinity photo and Publisher. I am also using qimage for some of my printing needs.

Its hard to learn a new workflow or even keyboard shortcuts , but I am finding my way. On1 is far from perfect but it is constantly improving and I can see my future with it. My collection pre-2020 is Adobe and I go back to that to reedit although I am finding that sometimes it is easier to just go back to my RAW and start fresh with new tools. Sometimes I send my older photos from LR to ON 1 and edit further.

I wish there were more print publications for ON1 and affinity but for now both have good video education. Hopefully in the future...

All in all, new tools and I am enjoying new options and capabilities

Steve

srock said:

Good advice

I have taken the opportunity to learn a new workflow with primarily 3 programs. I have found that On1 allows me to do thinks that I found difficult previously. I am using and learning affinity photo and Publisher. I am also using qimage for some of my printing needs.

Its hard to learn a new workflow or even keyboard shortcuts , but I am finding my way. On1 is far from perfect but it is constantly improving and I can see my future with it. My collection pre-2020 is Adobe and I go back to that to reedit although I am finding that sometimes it is easier to just go back to my RAW and start fresh with new tools. Sometimes I send my older photos from LR to ON 1 and edit further.

I wish there were more print publications for ON1 and affinity but for now both have good video education. Hopefully in the future...

All in all, new tools and I am enjoying new options and capabilities

Steve

Click to expand...

I didn't mention it in my original post, but one thing that I have found essential when learning a new software application is taking prodigious notes, not just with regard to procedures, features and options, but also with regard to my own reflections regarding how I might apply the software alone or in combination with other applications.

The human mind better commits things to memory and knowledge base when the visual sense is supported by other senses, most notably, the tactile sense of writing the notes. Videos involve hearing as well. It all sews together to promote a stronger retention factor.

And of course, working through some example images that are either scrap or copies of good source images is all too essential.

--
"If you are among those who believe that it has all been done already and nothing new can be achieved, you've murdered your own artistry before ever letting it live. You abort it in its fetal state. There is much that has yet to be spoken in art and composition and it grows with the passage of time. Evolving technologies, world environments and ideologies all drive change in thoughts, passion and expression. There is no way that it can all ever be done already. And therein lies the venue for the creative artist, a venue that is as diverse as the universe is unmapped and unexplored." - Quote from FlyingLentris
~
flyinglentris in LLOMA

flyinglentris said:

It's a perfect time to evaluate new Software Image Editing Apps, during these COVID19 Crisis "Stay at Home" lock downs. And it seems that there are at this same time, a profusion of applications that are reaching maturity and notoriety, enough to be worth looking at.

Don't overload the brain cells.

Click to expand...

I’d say the most useful way for lots of people to spend this ‘spare’ time would be learning to not waste their time trying to make a turd into a diamond - post-processing software can’t add artistic value to our work. That value

must be there before we begin to process the picture.

Software is often judged on this and that other feature, but a good photograph will require very little in terms of post-processing.

I tried quite a few Darktable is the least intuitive UI ever created on any photo editing software, way too many modules, multiple ways of doing the same thing yet little consolidation to prevent user frustration.

It has great potential but wasted man on devs that refuse to listen to feedback.

Raw Therapee is also overloaded, though probably easier to get into a bit (nothing is laid out as badly as darktable)

The open source situation is pretty poor right now dudes, though Lightzone has had some action recently, it's way behind where it should be (out of those 3 it has the most to offer UI wise)

Once you get to the paid stuff Exposure X5 didn't impress, awful HL recovery and overload of filters. DxO lacks DNG support for converted files, Luminar is AI/Filter overload again and runs rather slowly.

Maybe one day someone will man up a bit and actually make good software!

irv00 said:

flyinglentris said:

It's a perfect time to evaluate new Software Image Editing Apps, during these COVID19 Crisis "Stay at Home" lock downs. And it seems that there are at this same time, a profusion of applications that are reaching maturity and notoriety, enough to be worth looking at.

Don't overload the brain cells.

Click to expand...

I’d say the most useful way for lots of people to spend this ‘spare’ time would be learning to not waste their time trying to make a turd into a diamond - post-processing software can’t add artistic value to our work. That value

must be there before we begin to process the picture.

Software is often judged on this and that other feature, but a good photograph will require very little in terms of post-processing.

Click to expand...

Come on. I don't think that many will dispute that the original photograph should be as perfectly conceived and captured as possible. I remember one of my first threads as a new member to DPR was about exactly that, getting it right from the start.

However, a blanket statement implying that post-processing software has no functionality beyond attempting to change a turd into a diamond is ludicrous. You cannot claim that any photograph can be so perfect that it cannot at least be nudged toward improvements.

The tasks of post-process editing and adjustments are certainly made easier and more fluid, less time consuming, etc. when the original images are well planned and executed. But none-the-less, the need to tweak and fine-tune will exist.

Instead of turning turds into diamonds, you might better speak of taking a rough cabochon and putting it through the lapidary tasks of cutting a near flawless gem stone and then, mounting it in gold or silver to finalize a worthy treasure.

And for photo artists, like myself, the photo editing and adjustment software goes far beyond simple nudges toward perfection. I use photo editing software to deviate from the normal photograph to produce alternate image art forms.

To be sure, the newer offerings in photo editing and adjustment software are worthy of discussion, review, evaluation and install and use.






San Francisco Nights

Nah, there's no way this Image started out as a simple capture and didn't reach its final state, except via Image Editing and Adjustment Software.

--
"If you are among those who believe that it has all been done already and nothing new can be achieved, you've murdered your own artistry before ever letting it live. You abort it in its fetal state. There is much that has yet to be spoken in art and composition and it grows with the passage of time. Evolving technologies, world environments and ideologies all drive change in thoughts, passion and expression. There is no way that it can all ever be done already. And therein lies the venue for the creative artist, a venue that is as diverse as the universe is unmapped and unexplored." - Quote from FlyingLentris
~
flyinglentris in LLOMA

flyinglentris said:

Come on. I don't think that many will dispute that the original photograph should be as perfectly conceived and captured as possible. I remember one of my first threads as a new member to DPR was about exactly that, getting it right from the start.

However, a blanket statement implying that post-processing software has no functionality beyond attempting to change a turd into a diamond is ludicrous. You cannot claim that any photograph can be so perfect that it cannot at least be nudged toward improvements.

Click to expand...

There was no blanket statement.

I clearly said that a lot of people go from software to software, investing a lot of time, effort and money trying to improve their post-processing results through the use of different software, when in reality the problem is they are trying to make bad pictures (turds) look good (diamonds).

There is no software that will fix bad photography. I stand by that.

flyinglentris said:

Instead of turning turds into diamonds, you might better speak of taking a rough cabochon and putting it through the lapidary tasks of cutting a near flawless gem stone and then, mounting it in gold or silver to finalize a worthy treasure.

Click to expand...

I prefer to call a turd a turd and a diamond a diamond.

irv00 said:

flyinglentris said:

Come on. I don't think that many will dispute that the original photograph should be as perfectly conceived and captured as possible. I remember one of my first threads as a new member to DPR was about exactly that, getting it right from the start.

However, a blanket statement implying that post-processing software has no functionality beyond attempting to change a turd into a diamond is ludicrous. You cannot claim that any photograph can be so perfect that it cannot at least be nudged toward improvements.

Click to expand...

There was no blanket statement.

I clearly said that a lot of people go from software to software, investing a lot of time, effort and money trying to improve their post-processing results through the use of different software, when in reality the problem is they are trying to make bad pictures (turds) look good (diamonds).

There is no software that will fix bad photography. I stand by that.

Click to expand...

I'll stand by that too.

irv00 said:

irv00 said:

Instead of turning turds into diamonds, you might better speak of taking a rough cabochon and putting it through the lapidary tasks of cutting a near flawless gem stone and then, mounting it in gold or silver to finalize a worthy treasure.

Click to expand...

I prefer to call a turd a turd and a diamond a diamond.

Click to expand...

Speaking of Diamonds and Turds.

The other day, she was walking the three small dogs and each one had circled round and round her, entangling her in their leashes, yapping away like crazy. And I? I didn't have my camera and missed the shot(s).

Today is the hottest day so far this year, in the upper 80s to 90 degrees. I went to check for mail and there's this huge Dog House in the drive way, too big to get through the gate into the backyard. At any angle, it is about one and one half inches too wide for the gate. And the Gate and Fence are over eight feet tall! She said "I forgot to measure the gate."

And the fun hasn't even started yet as the neighbors are enlisted to help and I have done my best to clear obstacles in the gang way at the side of the house. Will I have time for a few shots or will I get ensnared in the debacle? The heat is already a nuisance. And I don't drink beer, but it seems like a good time for one.

That Dog House weighs a ton!

And we're all supposed to be isolating from each other? :-O

--
"If you are among those who believe that it has all been done already and nothing new can be achieved, you've murdered your own artistry before ever letting it live. You abort it in its fetal state. There is much that has yet to be spoken in art and composition and it grows with the passage of time. Evolving technologies, world environments and ideologies all drive change in thoughts, passion and expression. There is no way that it can all ever be done already. And therein lies the venue for the creative artist, a venue that is as diverse as the universe is unmapped and unexplored." - Quote from FlyingLentris
~
flyinglentris in LLOMA

Maxxum Fan said:

I tried quite a few Darktable is the least intuitive UI ever created on any photo editing software, way too many modules, multiple ways of doing the same thing yet little consolidation to prevent user frustration.

It has great potential but wasted man on devs that refuse to listen to feedback.

Raw Therapee is also overloaded, though probably easier to get into a bit (nothing is laid out as badly as darktable)

The open source situation is pretty poor right now dudes, though Lightzone has had some action recently, it's way behind where it should be (out of those 3 it has the most to offer UI wise)

Once you get to the paid stuff Exposure X5 didn't impress, awful HL recovery and overload of filters. DxO lacks DNG support for converted files, Luminar is AI/Filter overload again and runs rather slowly.

Maybe one day someone will man up a bit and actually make good software!

Click to expand...

So, of all the post processing and editing software out there, you don't rate any as "good" - whatever that may mean to you. Maybe you should "man up a bit" and get coding yourself.

It's time for software devs to de geek and get with it!

Simple as. DT is awful designed to torture people using it

I don't code am happy to donate to worthy projects, still trying to find one that is a good project

flyinglentris said:

Speaking of Diamonds and Turds.

The other day, she was walking the three small dogs and each one had circled round and round her, entangling her in their leashes, yapping away like crazy. And I? I didn't have my camera and missed the shot(s).

Today is the hottest day so far this year, in the upper 80s to 90 degrees. I went to check for mail and there's this huge Dog House in the drive way, too big to get through the gate into the backyard. At any angle, it is about one and one half inches too wide for the gate. And the Gate and Fence are over eight feet tall! She said "I forgot to measure the gate."

And the fun hasn't even started yet as the neighbors are enlisted to help and I have done my best to clear obstacles in the gang way at the side of the house. Will I have time for a few shots or will I get ensnared in the debacle? The heat is already a nuisance. And I don't drink beer, but it seems like a good time for one.

That Dog House weighs a ton!

And we're all supposed to be isolating from each other? :-O

Click to expand...

Done. Removed the Gate. Lots of sweat. Put the Doggie House in the shade. Replaced the Gate. No photos. No Need for post-production Edit and Adjustments.

What's this old disabled guy get himself into? No Beer, but a shower is necessary.

--
"If you are among those who believe that it has all been done already and nothing new can be achieved, you've murdered your own artistry before ever letting it live. You abort it in its fetal state. There is much that has yet to be spoken in art and composition and it grows with the passage of time. Evolving technologies, world environments and ideologies all drive change in thoughts, passion and expression. There is no way that it can all ever be done already. And therein lies the venue for the creative artist, a venue that is as diverse as the universe is unmapped and unexplored." - Quote from FlyingLentris
~
flyinglentris in LLOMA

If you'd spend a few minutes realizing that you can turn off all of the modules you don't need and that you only need to use about four - you might find that darktable is pretty awesome.

I spent quite a while with the software, and detested it. Sure you can turn off modules, it's still an awful user experience. The devs are closed minded to suggestions, reject making it more user friendly. One of the considers software art, and it should be difficult not intuitive. That's a big red flag for me

If it gets decent devs it has potential maybe, not a chance it will become what it should be with the current bunch. It's probably the worst software out there sadly. Free or not it's not worth wasting HDD space on

Maxxum Fan said:

I spent quite a while with the software, and detested it. Sure you can turn off modules, it's still an awful user experience. The devs are closed minded to suggestions, reject making it more user friendly. One of the considers software art, and it should be difficult not intuitive. That's a big red flag for me

If it gets decent devs it has potential maybe, not a chance it will become what it should be with the current bunch. It's probably the worst software out there sadly. Free or not it's not worth wasting HDD space on

Click to expand...

That’s the difference between comercial and ‘free’ software: developers of commercial software work to please their users while developers of ‘free’ software often aim to please themselves and their buddies, often people like them, too.

That’s why the internet is littered with crap only a handful of people take seriously.

Maxxum Fan said:

It's time for software devs to de geek and get with it!

Simple as. DT is awful designed to torture people using it

I don't code am happy to donate to worthy projects, still trying to find one that is a good project

Click to expand...

I'm with you with DT.

I've spent a lot of time with it over the last few years, and more so recently (long before CV19), since I wanted to find something to replace my Lr subscription plan.

DT has the most awful workflow, and does not easily produce results consistently. They decided to put the modules in the order they're processed, not the order you need to apply them.

To make matters worse, you try finding answers in the forums, or manual (which is usually way behind being updated), and you just end up with contradictory advice, or such a complicated suggestion to fix a simply problem, you can end up just being confused.

Don't get me wrong, I think DT has its place, but not so much for the new user, or one that prefers a simple workflow.

And, as you say, they reactions to constructive criticism are not usually very responsive, and usually it's my fault for not wanting to learn the intricacies of how the software works.

Like you, I don't code, but it does seem expected that you should be able to by the DT community.

My own conclusion is that it's definitely not for a photo newbie, nor anyone used to the way other software operates.

Andy Hewitt said:

DT has the most awful workflow, and does not easily produce results consistently.

Click to expand...

This is most definitely an operator problem, not an application problem. My results are quite consistent.

Andy Hewitt said:

To make matters worse, you try finding answers in the forums, or manual (which is usually way behind being updated), and you just end up with contradictory advice, or such a complicated suggestion to fix a simply problem, you can end up just being confused.

Click to expand...

Sad to see this is how you talk about people who spent their free time trying to help you... which by the way you were never able to elaborate on anything other than being drown in your own confusion. You never tried any of the suggested workflows and reported back, never followed any of even the simplest workflows, never posted a sidecar file, raw file, or even a SooC to illustrate what you were talking about. The only thing you could do is write paragraph on paragraph of how confused you (still) are about darktable. It is impossible to help someone who doesn't want to be helped.

Andy Hewitt said:

Don't get me wrong, I think DT has its place, but not so much for the new user, or one that prefers a simple workflow.

And, as you say, they reactions to constructive criticism are not usually very responsive, and usually it's my fault for not wanting to learn the intricacies of how the software works.

Click to expand...

Why would we want feedback from someone who has no interest in trying to learn the application?

Andy Hewitt said:

Like you, I don't code, but it does seem expected that you should be able to by the DT community.

Click to expand...

darktable has plenty of users who can't code. I am one of them. Do you need to learn a bit to use darktable? Sure. But you have to learn a fair bit to use any raw processor.