When should I close my aperture?

TheGremmie

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A habit I've developed as I've been learning photography is just to leave my aperture open to it's widest setting, and doing most of my adjustments with the shutter speed and iso.

Aside from making the picture darker, what qualities in my photos with change if I closed the aperture? My understanding so far is that it'll make my backgrounds blurrier.
 
I'm glad I asked my question! The response, information and discussion I've gotten from this thread has been super helpful! Thank you everyone.
Hope you got something out of it, but as I implied in my initial post, it's all rather basic.

Here's what I just posted in another thread...

BTW, these straightforward matters are traditionally "sliced and diced" by self-appointed experts who love to construct complex models to mask their ignorance. There's really not much to it once you understand the details.

-Highly applicable here as well.
How do you know a self-appointed expert from a truly knowledgeable guy?

Examples of ignorance would help.
Well
Not well.
, there's hardly any deep knowledge required to adjust the settings on a camera,
I don't see any exposure of deep knowledge in this thread, just basic and necessary facts.
yet there are five pages of blathering on the subject.
That's because a lot of things were wrong, and explanations were due.
The stuff that I learned in a minute or two, (some 50 years ago) has stood the test of time.
Happy that you need so little.
I've commented before that an intelligent being from outer space might approach a camera with some trepidation, but would most likely try setting the parameters in the mid positions as an experiment. On my old film camera, that would be f/8 and 1/125s, which wouldn't be too far off.
That's water with no substance.

I've asked you two direct questions:

How do you know a self-appointed expert from a truly knowledgeable guy?

Examples of ignorance would help.
How about: "Most of your contributions".

Ha! Gotcha.
Thanks for proving your ignorance in these matters.
Strange that I've managed for 50+ years without knowing about "these matters" that have nothing to do with photography.
That's some enraged ego. You know nothing of those matters, but you've decided that they have nothing to do with photography while those who know a bit are ignorant.

Not going to read your replies.
Your petulant attitude ensures that you won't be able to resist taking a peek.

Once the Aperture and SS settings are mastered (2 minutes),
If it really takes 2 minutes to 'master' shutter and aperture, why do we get so many queries about them here. Are all those people stupid?
That's possible. Maybe they are confused by your endless posts on the subject?
When they start a thread asking questions I haven't made a post so your theory must be incorrect. In any case, my posts are only 'confusing' to people who have faulty prior knowledge and are unable to rid themselves of false preconceptions. That, thankfully, doesn't apply to beginners, just some of the self-appointed experts who hang around this forum misinforming people, mostly not for any bad motive, just because they don't know any better. And my posts aren't 'endless', each one comes to an end, at some stage.
My experience is that often, people who think that hard to grasp concepts are trivial really haven't grasped them at all, they've done a bit of memorising a few facts about them, which is as close as they ever get to 'mastering' anything.
So, you really do think that the concepts are hard to grasp?
I don't think they are trivial. Part of the evidence is that it took some very clever people a lot of work and effort to work it all out. Look up Hurter and Driffield. Or you could look at the history of f-number. It was not so obvious that it popped up straight away at the dawn of photography. In fact it wasn't until 1895 - 75 years after the inception of photography - that things settled down to the f-number as being the most useful way of expressing aperture.

Also there is the amount of effort that very serious authors have had to put into explaining it. For instance, always a good read is this Kodak guide:

https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles...en_motion_education_sensitometry_workbook.pdf

I don't think they would have bothered if the whole thing was trivial. As I said before, there is a tendency for many people to think that something they have memorised but not understood is 'trivial'.
This "memorising" ambit is a new tack. Of course I remember various experiences, but the basics are unchanged.

Assuming that I started with a film SLR in the 1970s, where is the complexity, considering a fixed film ISO?
See Kodak's "ISO vs EI Speed Ratings for KODAK Films" (1996) https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis185-1996_11.pdf

A question that often arises is why some Kodak films have ISO ratings while others have EI (Exposure Index ratings), or some may have neither. Kodak generally determines the speed ratings for films using ISO speed rating methods. However, ISO speed ratings are determined under one set of very specific conditions. Sometimes those conditions, while highly standardized, do not correlate as closely as desired to real world conditions.

Of course there is little, if any, chance to change your mind about your ability of separating sheets from the goats, but at least the others are getting some idea of when not to listen to you.
Ah, but 'read the number on the box, set the meter to that' was simple. Up until they invented DX coding, and automated a photographer's last remaining piece of expertise. At least with digital they've made it set manually again, so photographers can be more expert ;-)
I use bulk film and unmarked spools. ;) Alternatives: a piece of black tape over the code or using exposure compensation.
 
I'm glad I asked my question! The response, information and discussion I've gotten from this thread has been super helpful! Thank you everyone.
Hope you got something out of it, but as I implied in my initial post, it's all rather basic.

Here's what I just posted in another thread...

BTW, these straightforward matters are traditionally "sliced and diced" by self-appointed experts who love to construct complex models to mask their ignorance. There's really not much to it once you understand the details.

-Highly applicable here as well.
How do you know a self-appointed expert from a truly knowledgeable guy?

Examples of ignorance would help.
Well
Not well.
, there's hardly any deep knowledge required to adjust the settings on a camera,
I don't see any exposure of deep knowledge in this thread, just basic and necessary facts.
yet there are five pages of blathering on the subject.
That's because a lot of things were wrong, and explanations were due.
The stuff that I learned in a minute or two, (some 50 years ago) has stood the test of time.
Happy that you need so little.
I've commented before that an intelligent being from outer space might approach a camera with some trepidation, but would most likely try setting the parameters in the mid positions as an experiment. On my old film camera, that would be f/8 and 1/125s, which wouldn't be too far off.
That's water with no substance.

I've asked you two direct questions:

How do you know a self-appointed expert from a truly knowledgeable guy?

Examples of ignorance would help.
How about: "Most of your contributions".

Ha! Gotcha.
Thanks for proving your ignorance in these matters.
Strange that I've managed for 50+ years without knowing about "these matters" that have nothing to do with photography.
That's some enraged ego. You know nothing of those matters, but you've decided that they have nothing to do with photography while those who know a bit are ignorant.

Not going to read your replies.
Your petulant attitude ensures that you won't be able to resist taking a peek.

Once the Aperture and SS settings are mastered (2 minutes),
If it really takes 2 minutes to 'master' shutter and aperture, why do we get so many queries about them here. Are all those people stupid?
That's possible. Maybe they are confused by your endless posts on the subject?
When they start a thread asking questions I haven't made a post so your theory must be incorrect. In any case, my posts are only 'confusing' to people who have faulty prior knowledge and are unable to rid themselves of false preconceptions. That, thankfully, doesn't apply to beginners, just some of the self-appointed experts who hang around this forum misinforming people, mostly not for any bad motive, just because they don't know any better. And my posts aren't 'endless', each one comes to an end, at some stage.
My experience is that often, people who think that hard to grasp concepts are trivial really haven't grasped them at all, they've done a bit of memorising a few facts about them, which is as close as they ever get to 'mastering' anything.
So, you really do think that the concepts are hard to grasp?
I don't think they are trivial. Part of the evidence is that it took some very clever people a lot of work and effort to work it all out. Look up Hurter and Driffield. Or you could look at the history of f-number. It was not so obvious that it popped up straight away at the dawn of photography. In fact it wasn't until 1895 - 75 years after the inception of photography - that things settled down to the f-number as being the most useful way of expressing aperture.

Also there is the amount of effort that very serious authors have had to put into explaining it. For instance, always a good read is this Kodak guide:

https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles...en_motion_education_sensitometry_workbook.pdf

I don't think they would have bothered if the whole thing was trivial. As I said before, there is a tendency for many people to think that something they have memorised but not understood is 'trivial'.
This "memorising" ambit is a new tack. Of course I remember various experiences, but the basics are unchanged.

Assuming that I started with a film SLR in the 1970s, where is the complexity, considering a fixed film ISO?
See Kodak's "ISO vs EI Speed Ratings for KODAK Films" (1996) https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis185-1996_11.pdf

A question that often arises is why some Kodak films have ISO ratings while others have EI (Exposure Index ratings), or some may have neither. Kodak generally determines the speed ratings for films using ISO speed rating methods. However, ISO speed ratings are determined under one set of very specific conditions. Sometimes those conditions, while highly standardized, do not correlate as closely as desired to real world conditions.

Of course there is little, if any, chance to change your mind about your ability of separating sheets from the goats, but at least the others are getting some idea of when not to listen to you.
Ah, but 'read the number on the box, set the meter to that' was simple. Up until they invented DX coding, and automated a photographer's last remaining piece of expertise. At least with digital they've made it set manually again, so photographers can be more expert ;-)
I use bulk film and unmarked spools. ;) Alternatives: a piece of black tape over the code or using exposure compensation.
Bulk film requires different skills - you learn them after a few shots ruined by those little kink marks and fingerprints where you fouled up getting the stuff into the cassette. And then there was the fun of getting 120 film into the tank without kinking that.
 
I'm glad I asked my question! The response, information and discussion I've gotten from this thread has been super helpful! Thank you everyone.
Hope you got something out of it, but as I implied in my initial post, it's all rather basic.

Here's what I just posted in another thread...

BTW, these straightforward matters are traditionally "sliced and diced" by self-appointed experts who love to construct complex models to mask their ignorance. There's really not much to it once you understand the details.

-Highly applicable here as well.
How do you know a self-appointed expert from a truly knowledgeable guy?

Examples of ignorance would help.
Well
Not well.
, there's hardly any deep knowledge required to adjust the settings on a camera,
I don't see any exposure of deep knowledge in this thread, just basic and necessary facts.
yet there are five pages of blathering on the subject.
That's because a lot of things were wrong, and explanations were due.
The stuff that I learned in a minute or two, (some 50 years ago) has stood the test of time.
Happy that you need so little.
I've commented before that an intelligent being from outer space might approach a camera with some trepidation, but would most likely try setting the parameters in the mid positions as an experiment. On my old film camera, that would be f/8 and 1/125s, which wouldn't be too far off.
That's water with no substance.

I've asked you two direct questions:

How do you know a self-appointed expert from a truly knowledgeable guy?

Examples of ignorance would help.
How about: "Most of your contributions".

Ha! Gotcha.
Thanks for proving your ignorance in these matters.
Strange that I've managed for 50+ years without knowing about "these matters" that have nothing to do with photography.
That's some enraged ego. You know nothing of those matters, but you've decided that they have nothing to do with photography while those who know a bit are ignorant.

Not going to read your replies.
Your petulant attitude ensures that you won't be able to resist taking a peek.

Once the Aperture and SS settings are mastered (2 minutes),
If it really takes 2 minutes to 'master' shutter and aperture, why do we get so many queries about them here. Are all those people stupid?
That's possible. Maybe they are confused by your endless posts on the subject?
When they start a thread asking questions I haven't made a post so your theory must be incorrect. In any case, my posts are only 'confusing' to people who have faulty prior knowledge and are unable to rid themselves of false preconceptions. That, thankfully, doesn't apply to beginners, just some of the self-appointed experts who hang around this forum misinforming people, mostly not for any bad motive, just because they don't know any better. And my posts aren't 'endless', each one comes to an end, at some stage.
My experience is that often, people who think that hard to grasp concepts are trivial really haven't grasped them at all, they've done a bit of memorising a few facts about them, which is as close as they ever get to 'mastering' anything.
So, you really do think that the concepts are hard to grasp?
I don't think they are trivial. Part of the evidence is that it took some very clever people a lot of work and effort to work it all out. Look up Hurter and Driffield. Or you could look at the history of f-number. It was not so obvious that it popped up straight away at the dawn of photography. In fact it wasn't until 1895 - 75 years after the inception of photography - that things settled down to the f-number as being the most useful way of expressing aperture.

Also there is the amount of effort that very serious authors have had to put into explaining it. For instance, always a good read is this Kodak guide:

https://www.kodak.com/uploadedfiles...en_motion_education_sensitometry_workbook.pdf

I don't think they would have bothered if the whole thing was trivial. As I said before, there is a tendency for many people to think that something they have memorised but not understood is 'trivial'.
This "memorising" ambit is a new tack. Of course I remember various experiences, but the basics are unchanged.

Assuming that I started with a film SLR in the 1970s, where is the complexity, considering a fixed film ISO?
See Kodak's "ISO vs EI Speed Ratings for KODAK Films" (1996) https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis185-1996_11.pdf

A question that often arises is why some Kodak films have ISO ratings while others have EI (Exposure Index ratings), or some may have neither. Kodak generally determines the speed ratings for films using ISO speed rating methods. However, ISO speed ratings are determined under one set of very specific conditions. Sometimes those conditions, while highly standardized, do not correlate as closely as desired to real world conditions.

Of course there is little, if any, chance to change your mind about your ability of separating sheets from the goats, but at least the others are getting some idea of when not to listen to you.
Ah, but 'read the number on the box, set the meter to that' was simple. Up until they invented DX coding, and automated a photographer's last remaining piece of expertise. At least with digital they've made it set manually again, so photographers can be more expert ;-)
I use bulk film and unmarked spools. ;) Alternatives: a piece of black tape over the code or using exposure compensation.
Bulk film requires different skills - you learn them after a few shots ruined by those little kink marks and fingerprints where you fouled up getting the stuff into the cassette. And then there was the fun of getting 120 film into the tank without kinking that.
Never had a problem with bulk film re-spooling or tanks, but frames are so much better, faster, and easier than tanks ;)

--
http://www.libraw.org/
 
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A habit I've developed as I've been learning photography is just to leave my aperture open to it's widest setting, and doing most of my adjustments with the shutter speed and iso.

Aside from making the picture darker, what qualities in my photos with change if I closed the aperture? My understanding so far is that it'll make my backgrounds blurrier.
best thread title ever. Very uplifting
 
I stopped reading when I saw this.
The scroll control isn't too hard to use.
What is cumbersome is reading a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply. Not that I haven't been guilty of getting engaged in an argument to that extent, but I'm learning that it is mostly an exercise in futility.
 
I've asked you two direct questions:

How do you know a self-appointed expert from a truly knowledgeable guy?

Examples of ignorance would help.
How about: "Most of your contributions".

Ha! Gotcha.
Thanks for proving your ignorance in these matters.
Strange that I've managed for 50+ years without knowing about "these matters".

This thread has more to do with propping up fragile egos than helping the OP. Some contributors are fixated on trivia. Hell, there was once a guy who used to bore us all with advice against AF-FT, and even maintained a database of procedural errors.
Thom Hogan had a nice article this week about 'What level are you'':
  1. You're unaware that you're unaware.
  2. You're aware that you're unaware.
  3. You're unaware that you're aware.
  4. You're aware that you're aware.
Which level would you choose for yourself?
Unfortunately, intelligence is not contagious.
It certainly isn't. But the following type of "personality" is ubiquitous:
  • Argue against the facts in Dunning-Kruger fashion.
  • In the instances when they come to understand the facts, claim to have known them all along.
  • Try to explain the facts in different language to distinguish themselves as saying something different than those they argued against, often making mistakes when doing so.
  • Say that the people who were stating the facts and correcting misinformation were doing so only to feed their egos.
  • Claim that the facts are irrelevant and/or too technical, that a simpler incorrect model is all people need to know.
  • Sometimes, but not always, attack those discussing technical matters as not being good photographers in a false attempt to discredit the technical discussion.
  • Continue to post in technical threads without contributing to the technical points being discussed. Instead, they spout ad-hominems against those whom they disparagingly call "self-appointed experts", which is all the more funny because how would they know who's a "real expert" and who's not? Even then, it would be an appeal to authority rather than using facts and logic to support their position.
I've seen this pattern over and over on DPR and, seriously, it's just so disappointing. If someone knows something you don't, then there are two possibilities: you care about it or you don't. If you care about it, you would want to know what they know, right? If you don't care about it, you wouldn't argue with them, right?

But, they don't accept that someone knows something they don't. If someone explains why they are mistaken, they either argue against them or say that it doesn't matter. Either way, the irony is that it was their ego that prompted their subsequent ad-hominem behavior. In other words, the "they just talk to feed their egos" is simply another version of the "I know you are but what am I?" attack.

In fact, in this very thread, one of the types described was so childish that, when it was explained to them that the "dreaded term", lightness, has been a photographic term since the 1920s , they posted a childish reply and then a blank reply after to close the thread so that no response could be made. I mean, it could not be more clear.
 
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I stopped reading when I saw this.
The scroll control isn't too hard to use.
What is cumbersome is reading a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply.
Then don't read it.
I didn't.
No-one is forcing you.
Don't take it personally. I wasn't even really interested in the topic of film. I just found it amusing to see such a long list of respondents. Are you trying to pick a fight, or just get in the last word? What you wrote goes without saying.
 
I stopped reading when I saw this.
The scroll control isn't too hard to use.
What is cumbersome is reading a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply.
Then don't read it.
I didn't.
Good
No-one is forcing you.
Don't take it personally. I wasn't even really interested in the topic of film. I just found it amusing to see such a long list of respondents.
That's what you get when people are undertaking a lively discussion.
Are you trying to pick a fight, or just get in the last word?
I'm not trying to do either. Just commenting on what I saw as a rather fatuous post. I'm replying to what you said here because you ended it with a question mark.
What you wrote goes without saying.
Clearly not.
 
Funny, I showed my son the post in question and his comment was that the format is awful, so apparently I'm not the only one who finds it cumbersome.
What is cumbersome is reading a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply to a reply.
Then don't read it.
Are you trying to pick a fight, or just get in the last word?
I'm not trying to do either. Just commenting on what I saw as a rather fatuous post. I'm replying to what you said here because you ended it with a question mark.
I would say you are doing both. Enjoy your "lively discussion" and don't let my "fatuous" comment distract you from the utility (I say futility, but whatever) of what you and others have been doing. The irony here is you may be entirely right and justified in your replies, but there comes a time to just let it go, and your replies here to me are just antagonistic (so apparently you are taking it personally since you are making it personal).

With that I will leave you to have the last word if you want it, keeping in mind that this thread is nearly maxed out (so maybe you might want to direct your attention elsewhere). Take care and I hope you are staying healthy.
 
This "memorising" ambit is a new tack. Of course I remember various experiences, but the basics are unchanged.

Assuming that I started with a film SLR in the 1970s, where is the complexity, considering a fixed film ISO?
Generally film has an "S-shaped" response curve. For best results you need to hit the central, relatively flat, part of the curve. Digital has a mostly flat response "curve." With digital the best results are obtained by using the maximum exposure that doesn't blow out important highlights.

The metering and exposure techniques that are optimal for film, are not optimal for digital. Tools that work best for film, may not work best for digital. Given a film camera loaded with ISO 100 film, and a digital camera set to ISO 100, the optimal exposure for one may not be the optimal exposure for the other.

If you think I am talking nonsense, then you don't understand the complexities of exposure.
Do you think that I used film for 25 years without learning the characteristics of the medium, including the non-linearity?
I'd rather stick to discussing the photographic issues, rather than individual posters.

My intent was to answer the question "Where is the complexity?"

In retrospect, I should have started the last sentence with "If someone thinks..." instead of "if you think...". I apologize for the confusion.
I appreciate your reply.

All I'm saying is that getting the settings right is dead easy, and that beginners shouldn't be burdened with needless complexity. Seems that this doesn't go down well in certain quarters.

Your point about film ISO is quite valid, but rarely of importance for beginners.
 
I'd rather stick to discussing the photographic issues, rather than individual posters.

My intent was to answer the question "Where is the complexity?"

In retrospect, I should have started the last sentence with "If someone thinks..." instead of "if you think...". I apologize for the confusion.
I appreciate your reply.

All I'm saying is that getting the settings right is dead easy, and that beginners shouldn't be burdened with needless complexity. Seems that this doesn't go down well in certain quarters.

...
I disagree with your claim that it is "dead easy" to get the settings "right". I think a more accurate phrase would be that it is easy to find settings that give you a reasonable (or even a good) result.

In general, we are happy when the settings are "good enough" for our needs. That tends to be a much lower bar for a beginner than an experienced photographer.

For instance a beginner might be thrilled with the results with the ISO fixed at 3200 with f/32 and aperture priority. In his mind he got the setting "right". A more experienced photographer might find the settings to be very wrong. The experienced photographer might prefer a wider aperture for shallower depth of field and no noticeable diffraction issues. He might prefer a lower ISO (for the associated higher exposure to get less visible noise).

Photography generally involves trading off many factors. Finding a tradeoff that sort of works might be easy. Finding the best tradeoff for the situation frequently requires skill and knowledge.

The reality is that this is a complex subject. But I do agree that this thread has gone into more detail than the typical beginner wants to know.
 
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in a photographic sensor with a given Quantum efficiency, is it guaranteed that one absorbed Photon will generate only one unit of charge?

--
Charles Darwin: "ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
tony
http://www.tphoto.ca
 
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I'd rather stick to discussing the photographic issues, rather than individual posters.

My intent was to answer the question "Where is the complexity?"

In retrospect, I should have started the last sentence with "If someone thinks..." instead of "if you think...". I apologize for the confusion.
I appreciate your reply.

All I'm saying is that getting the settings right is dead easy, and that beginners shouldn't be burdened with needless complexity. Seems that this doesn't go down well in certain quarters.

...
I disagree with your claim that it is "dead easy" to get the settings "right". I think a more accurate phrase would be that it is easy to find settings that give you a reasonable (or even a good) result.
I think the poor beginner can get in quite a complex about exposure, since they are told how important it is to 'nail it', and get 'correct' exposure, but no-one will tell them what 'correct' exposure is or how to 'nail it'. When you consider that all these threads start because some beginner is completely confused about exposure, the proposition that it is 'dead easy' doesn't really hold much water. Your comment about it being easy to find settings that give a reasonable result is on the money. You just centre the meter. Or let the camera do it for you. But doing that doesn't mean that you have understood exposure.
 
in a photographic sensor with a given Quantum efficiency, is it guaranteed that one absorbed Photon will generate one unit of charge?
Only if that quantum efficiency was 100%. A QE of 50% means that on average one photon generates 0.5 units of charge and so on. Whatever happens the charge is proportional to the number of photons. The unit of charge is one electron, which doesn't change.
 
in a photographic sensor with a given Quantum efficiency, is it guaranteed that one absorbed Photon will generate one unit of charge?
Only if that quantum efficiency was 100%. A QE of 50% means that on average one photon generates 0.5 units of charge and so on. Whatever happens the charge is proportional to the number of photons. The unit of charge is one electron, which doesn't change.
Sorry for my lack of clarity. By absorbed photon I actually meant that is if possible for a photon that is actually captured by the sensor to generate possibly two units of charge due to Quantum variations with energetic photons
 
in a photographic sensor with a given Quantum efficiency, is it guaranteed that one absorbed Photon will generate one unit of charge?
Only if that quantum efficiency was 100%. A QE of 50% means that on average one photon generates 0.5 units of charge and so on. Whatever happens the charge is proportional to the number of photons. The unit of charge is one electron, which doesn't change.
Sorry for my lack of clarity. By absorbed photon I actually meant that is if possible for a photon that is actually captured by the sensor to generate possibly two units of charge due to Quantum variations with energetic photons
I think it's possible, but ridiculously unlikely since removing a second electron requires twice the energy as removing the first electron.
 
in a photographic sensor with a given Quantum efficiency, is it guaranteed that one absorbed Photon will generate one unit of charge?
Only if that quantum efficiency was 100%. A QE of 50% means that on average one photon generates 0.5 units of charge and so on. Whatever happens the charge is proportional to the number of photons. The unit of charge is one electron, which doesn't change.
Sorry for my lack of clarity. By absorbed photon I actually meant that is if possible for a photon that is actually captured by the sensor to generate possibly two units of charge due to Quantum variations with energetic photons
Not at visible light energy (or more accurately, the probability is very small). The photoelectric effect can produce two electrons per photon, but photon energies must be much higher than for visible light, so in essence for an image sensor it doesn't happen.
 

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