When should I close my aperture?

TheGremmie

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A habit I've developed as I've been learning photography is just to leave my aperture open to it's widest setting, and doing most of my adjustments with the shutter speed and iso.

Aside from making the picture darker, what qualities in my photos with change if I closed the aperture? My understanding so far is that it'll make my backgrounds blurrier.
 
It's the same difference as it is from ISO 400 to ISO 1600 and from ISO 1600 to ISO 6400.
No, it really isn't, at least not on the sensor on my camera, not according to people who measure such things.
The right question for me is "if I take a picture at f/2.8 for 1/300th of a second at ISO 100, will it be the same exposure level if I take another picture at f/5.6 for 1/300th of a second at ISO 400?"

As I said, the answer is absolutely not "yes" -- the answer is a resounding "no".
OK. How will the exposure level, which you call "lightness", of the two images differ?

Because you appear to be saying that either the difference between f/2.8 and f/5.6 is not two stops, or the difference between ISO 100 and 400 is not two stops.

Please, elaborate.
 
This gets into the weeds of terminology. My understanding is that the raw data does not contain the actual count of how many photons were detected by each pixel. On the other hand, the number of photons reaching the sensor does affect the result. As to whether the inner workings constitutes "counting photons" seems to be a matter of terminology.
It's not really a count. It's a charge accumulated in the photo-diode.
That's still a count.
Sort of. A count can be derived from it.
No. It is a count.
Your gas tank may have 5 gallons of fluid in it, but they're not in discrete chunks.
Unlike the charge in your pixel, which is in discrete chunks.
It's a 5 gallon volume. You can measure the volume, and calculate that there are 5 gallons in the tank, but you can't guarantee exactly 5 gallons were poured in to the tank.
So, given that your fuel tank is not a quantum device, it's an entirely inapt analogy.
then to an analog-to-digital converter which converts that charge to an actual number, and that number is what gets stored in the RAW data.
The accumulated charge is given by the aggregate of the photoelectron charges caused by the incident light. Each one of those charges is the same (1.60217662 × 10^-19 coulombs) so the aggregate charge is the count of all of the photoelectrons. Counting does not have to be performed by enumeration (and that never happens). When you take a bag of coins to pay into the bank, they count it by putting it on a scale.
I was under the impression that the charge accumulated varies by frequency of light-- so you'd have to count differently for the R, G and B filtered photodiodes.
Yes indeed, the count is different in those 'photodiodes' that's why your camera can reproduce colour. It doesn't stop it being a count.
Also, my bank uses what I jokingly call a coin grinder, which sorts the coins-- so it really does count them individually.
A scale is simpler and therefore more elegant.
 
the last time I researched the topic was 10+ years ago (before 12232.2006 was implemented by anyone).
Man oh man... You are so wrong... Major players standardized what was already their practice for a number of years.
Really? No one follows the standard? Please, explain. Preferably with references.
You are saying "exposure" happens after the light to the sensor is cut off. That's absurd. Signal processing has nothing to do with photographic exposure.
No, I'm not. You're reading what you think I said, rather than what I said.

I am saying the exposure level of the final image is determined after the shutter closes, and if the ISO knob means anything, that setting is what determines that exposure level.

If you know differently, please provide some relevant documentation.
 
It's the same difference as it is from ISO 400 to ISO 1600 and from ISO 1600 to ISO 6400.
No, it really isn't, at least not on the sensor on my camera, not according to people who measure such things.
It is exactly the same with respect to photon noise (the noise from the light itself, which is the dominant source of noise in most photos). For the portions of the photo made with very little light, the electronic noise (the noise from the sensor and supporting hardware) is of more significance, and, yes, there we will see a more dramatic difference at the lower ISO settings than at the higher ISO settings, but this will manifest itself in the difference in DR at the low end of the range. However, this is of importance only for those who heavily push shadows.

More to the point, is the following analogy:
  • 2 kg is twice the mass of 1 kg.
  • 4 kg is twice the mass of 2 kg.
  • 8 kg is twice the mass of 4 kg.
  • etc., etc., etc.
In each case, the mass is doubled. At the low masses, the difference may not be of consequence, but at the high masses, the difference may be critical. Thus, while f/5.6 1/300 is twice as noisy as f/2.8 1/300 (for a given scene), this may not matter when the former is at ISO 400 and the latter is at ISO 100, but will be important if when the scene is 4 stops dimmer so that the former is at ISO 1600 and the latter at ISO 6400.
The right question for me is "if I take a picture at f/2.8 for 1/300th of a second at ISO 100, will it be the same exposure level if I take another picture at f/5.6 for 1/300th of a second at ISO 400?"

As I said, the answer is absolutely not "yes" -- the answer is a resounding "no".
OK. How will the exposure level, which you call "lightness"...
I don't call the "exposure level" lightness. To be honest, I don't recall hearing anyone use the term "exposure level" aside from you. There's exposure and there's lightness. What's "exposure level"? I'd take it to simply be a more wordy way to say "exposure", if I had to guess.
...of the two images differ?
The exposures are two stops apart (and hence the noise is twice as much for the ISO 400 photo as for the ISO 100 photo), but the photos will have the same lightness since the ISO settings are also two stops apart.
Because you appear to be saying that either the difference between f/2.8 and f/5.6 is not two stops, or the difference between ISO 100 and 400 is not two stops.

Please, elaborate.
I specifically said that f/2.8 1/300 has 4x the exposure (two stops greater exposure) than f/5.6 1/300 (for a given scene). The difference in the ISO settings (100 vs 400) is just so the two different exposures are represented with the same lightness.
 
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You do need to look at the normative references given to interpret this properly.
Why?
Because the normative references tell you how the words should be interpreted. That is why they are there.
First, as I mentioned elsewhere, the reason I posted this first, for the terminology, and second, the concept behind the standard.

One of the issues that constantly comes up, is different people using terms indiscriminately (and I include myself in this). If we're using the same words to mean different things, there's no way we can communicate, let alone reach a consensus.
Hence the normative references.
I think there's also this belief that if you don't understand the equations, you can't understand the implications, and that's not necessarily true,
It's pretty much true. The equations are hardly complex. If you havene't got enough mathematical facility to grasp those, you're not going to understand anything.
which brings us back to the photographic triangle.

I don't need to know what's happening inside my camera to know that the difference between ISO 100 and 200 is one stop of exposure in the final exposure level.
I suspect that you don't know what exposure is. This depends on what you mean by 'final'. Changing the ISO only affects exposure by the mechanism of the exposure meter, it changes the target exposure at which the meter centres.
Knowing that there are three types of adjustment that will affect my exposure level, and that if I change one of them I have to change at least one other, is a valid and useful concept for any photographer, beginner or otherwise.
Where the three are your aperture, exposure time and light incident on your subject - but you didn't mean that, did you? Because you don't know what exposure is - even though the passage from the ISO standard told you. It said "The exposure level of a DSC is determined by the exposure time, the lens aperture, the lens transmittance, the level and spectral distribution of the scene illumination, and the scene reflectance." Notice, no mention of ISO.
The details of how that happens are useful, but not necessary. The number of people who successfully use computers without knowing the difference between a thread and a process is mind-boggling. Most people, if I say "I'd tell you a UDP joke, but I don't know if you'd get it", don't understand why I think it's absolutely hilarious.
You're right that the details are unnecessary. What is necessary though is to understand the basic concepts, like what exposure is.
It doesn't keep them from using the internet, however.

Finally, and I say up front, I have not paid for a copy of ISO 12232.2006 (or .2019),
Well I have, so I have it here.
so what I'm about to say is based on other people's summations-- SOS only applies to sRGB color space images, not RAW, and doesn't apply if multi-zone metering is used.
Wikipedia?
If it's RAW and/or multi-zone metering, then it's the REI, or recommended exposure index, which is up to the manufacturer.
There is no difference in the standard between the requirements for SOS and REI with respect to sRGB. Neither is applicable, stemming from the following passage on the noise based speeds:

The noise of the luminance and colour difference signals shall be determined from CRT display output referred RGB colour signals based on the ITU-R BT.709 RGB primaries and white point, such as the sRGB and sYCC signals defined in IEC 61966-2-1, which are used as output signals in many DSCs.

Whilst the statement is not repeated for the exposure indices, it is clear from the context that it applies also to them, and the 2019 version of the standard stated this more clearly.

There is an additional condition put on REI, as follows:

When the DSC includes a manual exposure mode, or includes an exposure mode using a simple automatic exposure function, then the IREI value is useful. However, when the DSC includes only a sophisticated automatic exposure function, which adjusts the exposure level based on the subject pattern or the absolute luminance range in the scene, the IREI value in not useful and should not be reported.

so the Wikipedia article is wrong on that, and has the condition on evaluative metering precisely back to front. The 2019 standard makes explicit what was obvious all along from how the 2006 version was framed, that all of the ratings apply only to a processed image, not a raw file.
 
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"Exposure" is not the same as how dark or light you image looks. "Exposure" is concerned with the light captured while the shutter is open. How dark or light the results look depend on how you process that data.

It's common for digital shooters to confuse exposure with image lightness.
I want the word "exposure" banned. And I said "exposure level", not "exposure", because "exposure level" is the term used by the International Standards Organization when talking about what you term "image lightness".

So let's try it again:
The right question for me is "if I take a picture at f/2.8 for 1/300th of a second at ISO 100, will it be the same exposure level image lightness if I take another picture at f/5.6 for 1/300th of a second at ISO 400?"
 
the last time I researched the topic was 10+ years ago (before 12232.2006 was implemented by anyone).
Man oh man... You are so wrong... Major players standardized what was already their practice for a number of years.
Really? No one follows the standard?
Look up who authored the standard.
You are saying "exposure" happens after the light to the sensor is cut off. That's absurd. Signal processing has nothing to do with photographic exposure.
No, I'm not. You're reading what you think I said, rather than what I said.

I am saying the exposure level of the final image is determined after the shutter closes
Same difference.
and if the ISO knob means anything, that setting is what determines that exposure level.
ISO means what ISO says it means.
If you know differently, please provide some relevant documentation.
That ISO standard is relevant documentation.
 
the last time I researched the topic was 10+ years ago (before 12232.2006 was implemented by anyone).
Man oh man... You are so wrong... Major players standardized what was already their practice for a number of years.
Really? No one follows the standard? Please, explain. Preferably with references.
Comprehension issue it would appear. He said nothing whatsoever about no-one following the standard.
You are saying "exposure" happens after the light to the sensor is cut off. That's absurd. Signal processing has nothing to do with photographic exposure.
No, I'm not. You're reading what you think I said, rather than what I said.

I am saying the exposure level
From in another post you seem to think that 'exposure level' means 'lightness', which indicates that you don't know what 'exposure' means and therefore could not understand the very basis of the standard.
of the final image is determined after the shutter closes, and if the ISO knob means anything, that setting is what determines that exposure level.
Once the exposure is determined (which is done as soon as the shutter closes) the ISO determines the lightness, which is not 'exposure level'.
 
"Exposure" is not the same as how dark or light you image looks. "Exposure" is concerned with the light captured while the shutter is open. How dark or light the results look depend on how you process that data.

It's common for digital shooters to confuse exposure with image lightness.
I want the word "exposure" banned. And I said "exposure level", not "exposure", because "exposure level" is the term used by the International Standards Organization when talking about what you term "image lightness".

So let's try it again:
The right question for me is "if I take a picture at f/2.8 for 1/300th of a second at ISO 100, will it be the same exposure level image lightness if I take another picture at f/5.6 for 1/300th of a second at ISO 400?"
The answer to that question is: Yes - those two images will be at the same image lightness. Assuming identical conditions it should also have the same amount of motion blur.

However the image captured at the smaller aperture will have more depth of field, and more image noise.

Obviously, there will be other differences. For instance, the in-focus area of the image may actually be sharper at f/5.6 than f/2.8. The image captured at f/2.8 may have more vignetting. I think we can agree that these other differences are not significant to a discussion of Exposure, ISO, and Image Lightness.

If your only concern is Image Likeness, then either image will work for you. If you are in a situation where you care about the differences in image noise, Depth of Field, etc., then you may have a preference for one over the other.
 
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"Exposure" is not the same as how dark or light you image looks. "Exposure" is concerned with the light captured while the shutter is open. How dark or light the results look depend on how you process that data.

It's common for digital shooters to confuse exposure with image lightness.
I want the word "exposure" banned.
That would be tricky, since practically the whole of photographic theory and practice is based on it.
And I said "exposure level", not "exposure", because "exposure level" is the term used by the International Standards Organization when talking about what you term "image lightness".
That is incorrect. The standard says, as you quoted, 'The exposure level of a DSC is determined by the exposure time, the lens aperture, the lens transmittance, the level and spectral distribution of the scene illumination, and the scene reflectance.'. That makes it very clear that what is talked about is the luminous energy projected onto the sensor, not lightness. The usage throughout the standard is consistent with that interpretation and in conflict with yours. For instance:

ISO speed

numerical value calculated from the exposure provided at the focal plane of a DSC to produce specified camera output signal characteristics using the methods described in this International Standard

(my emphasis)

It's interesting that you feel able to lay down the law about what the standard says, when elsewhere you admit you don't have access to a copy. That makes it difficult for you to read it.
 
"Exposure" is not the same as how dark or light you image looks. "Exposure" is concerned with the light captured while the shutter is open. How dark or light the results look depend on how you process that data.

It's common for digital shooters to confuse exposure with image lightness.
I want the word "exposure" banned.
Why, because you don't understand it?
And I said "exposure level", not "exposure",
What is the difference, exactly?
because "exposure level" is the term used by the International Standards Organization
They use the term "exposure" as well.
when talking about what you term "image lightness".
No, that's not so.
So let's try it again:
The right question for me is "if I take a picture at f/2.8 for 1/300th of a second at ISO 100, will it be the same exposure level image lightness if I take another picture at f/5.6 for 1/300th of a second at ISO 400?"
Yes, so what? Exposure, SNR, DR, DoF are all different, those are two different images.
 
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I'm glad I asked my question! The response, information and discussion I've gotten from this thread has been super helpful! Thank you everyone.
Hope you got something out of it, but as I implied in my initial post, it's all rather basic.

Here's what I just posted in another thread...

BTW, these straightforward matters are traditionally "sliced and diced" by self-appointed experts who love to construct complex models to mask their ignorance. There's really not much to it once you understand the details.

-Highly applicable here as well.
 
I'm glad I asked my question! The response, information and discussion I've gotten from this thread has been super helpful! Thank you everyone.
Hope you got something out of it, but as I implied in my initial post, it's all rather basic.

Here's what I just posted in another thread...

BTW, these straightforward matters are traditionally "sliced and diced" by self-appointed experts who love to construct complex models to mask their ignorance. There's really not much to it once you understand the details.

-Highly applicable here as well.
How do you know a self-appointed expert from a truly knowledgeable guy?

Examples of ignorance would help.
 
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Think of Exposure as the count of photons hitting the sensor while the shutter is open.
That is my understanding of it.
Exposure and the effect of the exposure are different things. Count of photons is an effect ;)
True -- more light means more photons at any given exposure value, or maybe I'm missing something here.
Same exposure doesn't mean the same photon count, right?
Right, same as same exposure value doesn't mean the same exposure because the exposure is dependent on how much light there is in the scene.

P.S. I wrote this out yesterday, but stuff came up and have been preoccupied since. I'm just now getting around to reading other contributions to this thread.

--
Internet Interlocuter
 
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Think of Exposure as the count of photons hitting the sensor while the shutter is open.
That is my understanding of it.
Exposure and the effect of the exposure are different things. Count of photons is an effect ;)
True -- more light means more photons at any given exposure value,
you probably mean 'value of exposure' or simply 'exposure', 'exposure value' means something different, the combined effect of the shutter and aperture.
or maybe I'm missing something here.
The point is that 'exposure' refers to luminous energy, which is light energy weighted by the luminosity function. The solid black line here.

672px-Luminosity.svg.png


Even assuming that each photon carried the same energy (which of course they don't, the energy is inversely related to the wavelength) we can see that it takes a lot more photons to produce the same exposure at 450nm than it does at 550nm. Though photon counting provides a rough fit to exposure (and always has, film worked by photon counting too) which is good enough to work, 'exposure' is not the same thing as a photon count.
Okay, so not all photons are equal.

--
Internet Interlocuter
 
I'm glad I asked my question! The response, information and discussion I've gotten from this thread has been super helpful! Thank you everyone.
Hope you got something out of it, but as I implied in my initial post, it's all rather basic.

Here's what I just posted in another thread...

BTW, these straightforward matters are traditionally "sliced and diced" by self-appointed experts who love to construct complex models to mask their ignorance. There's really not much to it once you understand the details.

-Highly applicable here as well.
How do you know a self-appointed expert from a truly knowledgeable guy?

Examples of ignorance would help.
Well, there's hardly any deep knowledge required to adjust the settings on a camera, yet there are five pages of blathering on the subject. The stuff that I learned in a minute or two, (some 50 years ago) has stood the test of time.

I've commented before that an intelligent being from outer space might approach a camera with some trepidation, but would most likely try setting the parameters in the mid positions as an experiment. On my old film camera, that would be f/8 and 1/125s, which wouldn't be too far off.
 
I'm glad I asked my question! The response, information and discussion I've gotten from this thread has been super helpful! Thank you everyone.
Hope you got something out of it, but as I implied in my initial post, it's all rather basic.

Here's what I just posted in another thread...

BTW, these straightforward matters are traditionally "sliced and diced" by self-appointed experts who love to construct complex models to mask their ignorance. There's really not much to it once you understand the details.

-Highly applicable here as well.
How do you know a self-appointed expert from a truly knowledgeable guy?

Examples of ignorance would help.
Well
Not well.
, there's hardly any deep knowledge required to adjust the settings on a camera,
I don't see any exposure of deep knowledge in this thread, just basic and necessary facts.
yet there are five pages of blathering on the subject.
That's because a lot of things were wrong, and explanations were due.
The stuff that I learned in a minute or two, (some 50 years ago) has stood the test of time.
Happy that you need so little.
I've commented before that an intelligent being from outer space might approach a camera with some trepidation, but would most likely try setting the parameters in the mid positions as an experiment. On my old film camera, that would be f/8 and 1/125s, which wouldn't be too far off.
That's water with no substance.

I've asked you two direct questions:

How do you know a self-appointed expert from a truly knowledgeable guy?

Examples of ignorance would help.

Care to answer? Or busy eating a humble pie?
 
I'm glad I asked my question! The response, information and discussion I've gotten from this thread has been super helpful! Thank you everyone.
Hope you got something out of it, but as I implied in my initial post, it's all rather basic.

Here's what I just posted in another thread...

BTW, these straightforward matters are traditionally "sliced and diced" by self-appointed experts who love to construct complex models to mask their ignorance. There's really not much to it once you understand the details.

-Highly applicable here as well.
How do you know a self-appointed expert from a truly knowledgeable guy?

Examples of ignorance would help.
Well
Not well.
, there's hardly any deep knowledge required to adjust the settings on a camera,
I don't see any exposure of deep knowledge in this thread, just basic and necessary facts.
yet there are five pages of blathering on the subject.
That's because a lot of things were wrong, and explanations were due.
The stuff that I learned in a minute or two, (some 50 years ago) has stood the test of time.
Happy that you need so little.
I've commented before that an intelligent being from outer space might approach a camera with some trepidation, but would most likely try setting the parameters in the mid positions as an experiment. On my old film camera, that would be f/8 and 1/125s, which wouldn't be too far off.
That's water with no substance.

I've asked you two direct questions:

How do you know a self-appointed expert from a truly knowledgeable guy?

Examples of ignorance would help.
How about: "Most of your contributions".

Ha! Gotcha. ;-)

No, I don't give detailed replies to "setup" queries from newbies.
 
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