Why Bother?

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As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
 
As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
no one cares.

Don
 
As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
no one cares.

Don
 
As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
If you say high end phone cameras can take pictures with quality comparable to a high end M43 setup, it's because you've never owned a high end phone, otherwise you wouldn't come up with such a statement.

I have an Iphone 11 pro and the images look good on the iphone screen. When you export the images on your computer they don't look that good anymore. The colors are off, the sharpness is artificial and mushy.

Phone cameras are designed to look good only on the screen of your phone (and sometimes they don't). They're over-processed, even in RAW I can tell some computational is going on.

Image quality comes from a combination of sensor and lens quality. For a limited budget of 3000$, you can get a pro grade m43 camera and two pro grade lenses delivering good image quality. With the same budget you can get an entry to mid range full frame camera with one or two entry or mid grade lens. And overall the image quality will be inferior to a pro grade m43. FACTS.

Sure if you have an unlimited budget, then go spend it on pro grade full frame cameras and lenses. Burn your cash for that extra quality at 200% crop and above, or 3200 ISO and above.
 
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As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
I think the problem is your somewhat naive opinion on professional photography.
 
As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
First off, I'll say that I'm a fan of computational photography, and I think the phone manufacturers are doing really interesting things that are pushing photography further and faster than legitimate camera manufacturers. They have indeed replaced some of my MFT gear and I give no apologies for that.

For me, "real" cameras still allow me the flexibility and speed of use needed to capture the images I want. That means the body behavior is customizable in the way I need in terms of drive, AF algorithms, etc. They provide the range of lenses I need from ultrawide to extreme Tele. The handling is such that I can shoot for hours comfortably while getting consistent results.

Ultimately, quality is meaningless if I can't capture the shot I want, and MFT gear, for now, still allows me to do that better than any phone can for a lot of subjects.
 
As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
If you say high end phone cameras can take pictures with quality comparable to a high end M43 setup, it's because you've never owned a high end phone, otherwise you wouldn't come up with such a statement.
Not what I said...you must firstly correctly comprehend my narrative before jumping to unsupported illogical conjecture.

Let me help you...perhaps a cell phone is good enough for small screen media...many seem to think so and as such in this circumstance why bother with MFT.
I have an Iphone 11 pro and the images look good on the iphone screen. When you export the images on your computer they don't look that good anymore. The colors are off, the sharpness is artificial and mushy.
See utilization parameters noted above.
Phone cameras are designed to look good only on the screen of your phone (and sometimes they don't). They're over-processed, even in RAW I can tell some computational is going on.
Good enough?
Image quality comes from a combination of sensor and lens quality. For a limited budget of 3000$, you can get a pro grade m43 camera and two pro grade lenses delivering good image quality. With the same budget you can get an entry to mid range full frame camera with one or two entry or mid grade lens. And overall the image quality will be inferior to a pro grade m43. FACTS.
IMHO..."Professionals" pride themselves in delivering to notch images relative to the intended purpose...so MFT can indeed produce top notch small media images but not top notch images beyond the small media format...but it is an excellent system for non professional casual shooters who do not require the best possible image quality.

Professionals being those who strive to deliver the best quality possible as noted above and not those who have been paid for their work.
Sure if you have an unlimited budget, then go spend it on pro grade full frame cameras and lenses. Burn your cash for that extra quality at 200% crop and above, or 3200 ISO and above.
Thats exactly what professionals do...for casual shooters MFT seems good enough...for small media such as a phone....your 11 jpegs seem good enough.
 
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As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
First off, I'll say that I'm a fan of computational photography, and I think the phone manufacturers are doing really interesting things that are pushing photography further and faster than legitimate camera manufacturers. They have indeed replaced some of my MFT gear and I give no apologies for that.

For me, "real" cameras still allow me the flexibility and speed of use needed to capture the images I want. That means the body behavior is customizable in the way I need in terms of drive, AF algorithms, etc. They provide the range of lenses I need from ultrawide to extreme Tele. The handling is such that I can shoot for hours comfortably while getting consistent results.

Ultimately, quality is meaningless if I can't capture the shot I want, and MFT gear, for now, still allows me to do that better than any phone can for a lot of subjects.
 
As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
The main reason for buying specialist photographic gear is in most cases not image quality but shooting envelope - the range of photographs you can take and in which situations. As the available aperture size increases you gain the ability to use shallow depth of field, which you might use artistically just for the effect or you might trade off for more exposure at some given shutter speed - either to allow a usable shutter speed in low light or to allow fast shutter speeds to freeze action. Another thing that affects shooting envelope is the range of angles of view available. Phones don't have access to the very wide or very narrow. You might use this potential creatively, to enable the combination of perspective and framing you want, or you might simply use them to get the framing you want from the available camera location. Finally, mFT can collect more light overall than a phone, which means it can deliver photos which have a better pre-noise-reduction signal to noise ratio, which implies that you can use less noise reduction and get fewer NR artefacts.

mFT has a much bigger shooting envelope than even top-end mobile phones. If you're always going to be taking photos from within the phone's shooting envelope, mFT won't give you much in the way of benefit, in exactly the same way that if you always shoot within the mFT envelope, FF is largely pointless. Each step towards a larger envelope costs in terms of size, expense and convenience. mFT is a sweet spot for many.
 
I've seen plenty of images taken with phones and uploaded to sites like Flickr. The images do look bad when shown on a monitor. Strangely my images taken on a M43 camera and uploaded onto a 4k monitor doesn't.
 
As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
Maybe you should also substitute your Fuji in above post ..since there is not much difference between aps-c stuff and MFT.....
 
As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
Quote of the month... "setting the artistic aspects of photography aside" and spoken like a true DPR forum warrior.
 
As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
Quote of the month... "setting the artistic aspects of photography aside" and spoken like a true DPR forum warrior.
Why the surprise?...can you really attain the paramount of your artistic potential with mediocre tools...lucky someone invented and paintbrush or we would still be viewing finger painting in the worlds most prominent art galleries.

When view and perspectives are limited, when intrinsic bias dominates...always call yourself an "artist" first...it seems to solve all.
 
As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
The endless discussions about some sort of abstract "IQ" is crap with also talking about context. Try shooting sports with your iPhone. Try shooting birds in flight with your iPhone.

Context is everything.
 
As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
The endless discussions about some sort of abstract "IQ" is crap with also talking about context. Try shooting sports with your iPhone. Try shooting birds in flight with your iPhone.

Context is everything.
Your point is most valid but I bring your attention to "print and small screen media"...the intention was not to compare/contrast systems to which your reference to "context" is most relevant.

BTW...I shoot MFT...I find high ISO sports shooting (ie. hockey games or any type of indoor sports) to pale "when compared" to FF...just a fact of physics...total light rules...however I choose to continue to use MFT because its "good enough" for a mediocre photographer such as myself.
 
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This debate gets tiresome. It's always framed in these broad generalizations wherein one format is presented as superior/inferior/comparable to another format categorically because it's shown to be superior/inferior/comparable in some specific use cases. That's not how it works.

How it really works is that certain formats/systems have broader shooting envelopes than others. If you're within the shooting envelope of both formats/systems for a given use case, then the IQ difference will likely be insignificant or undetectable (depending primarily on viewing conditions). If you're clearly outside of the shooting envelope of one format/system but still clearly within the envelope of the other, then the IQ difference will likely be visible. Then there's the gray area in between which will vary according to how close/far to the optimal shooting conditions you're at and how you're viewing the images.

That's why camera phone images can range from absolutely stunning to ugly as sin, but so can the best of the best fullframe shots. The real difference is how quickly you find yourself outside of the shooting envelope sweet spot of the smaller, fixed format vs the larger flexible format vs. the various cost and convenience, size, etc. considerations. There's no magic definitive answer here that will allow anyone to argue that this size/format is always superior to that size/format.

Period!
 
As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
The endless discussions about some sort of abstract "IQ" is crap with also talking about context. Try shooting sports with your iPhone. Try shooting birds in flight with your iPhone.

Context is everything.
Your point is most valid but I bring your attention to "print and small screen media"...the intention was not to compare/contrast systems to which your reference to "context" is most relevant.
The output is irrelevant. It's the ability to get the shot that sets a "real" camera apart from a smartphone. For some of my work, using a smartphone is fine and the experience is pleasant - taking shots of my daughter, my girlfriend on vacation, etc. But for my other work shooting sports, concert photography, events, more formal portraiture then I don't want to be holding something at arm's length, tapping a screen to set a focal point, using an awkward button or the screen for releasing the shutter, etc. The ergonomics alone set a real camera apart.

And as others have pointed out, this is not about Smartphone vs MFT, it's about Smartphones vs Cameras, in general.

And of course you know all this, so not sure why I'm wasting my breath. 🙄
 
As a MFT shooter notwithstanding my understanding of the convenience vs IQ tradeoff...setting the artistic aspects of photography aside...I am amazed at the ever downward spiraling relative standards of IQ set to defend MFT. If indeed MFT is "good enough" for most casual use relative to print and small screen media then with the advent of more sophisticated phone cameras where does that leave MFT?
Quote of the month... "setting the artistic aspects of photography aside" and spoken like a true DPR forum warrior.
Why the surprise?...can you really attain the paramount of your artistic potential with mediocre tools...lucky someone invented and paintbrush or we would still be viewing finger painting in the worlds most prominent art galleries.
Big surprise: Modern photography doesn't have a lot to do with finger painting or photography ten to twenty years ago. The sophisticated software programming in today's m4/3 gear is just eons above that of the past. Although I've shot for 50 years and specialized in mountain landscape for 40, I am a much better photographer today than I was even when very active with older gear. It is so much easier to get great results with modern gear. Take birding; in two weeks with the EM-I II matched with the 300 F4, I can get results I couldn't even have dreamed of until now. It is the gear, I've not changed - at least not much.

Or take macro; my shots with the EM-1 II are basically state of art botanically. My eye for composition is little changed, but the shots I am getting even last Friday of mosses are like wow. It's the gear.
When view and perspectives are limited, when intrinsic bias dominates...always call yourself an "artist" first...it seems to solve all.
I get the feeling you mostly take indoor shots of the cat and can't see the need for gear......
 
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What is with the fixation on minor things like DR and noise.

These are minor and small differences have no effect on creating a great photo.

For example, getting the proper colors is vastly more important. Getting the correct composition is even more important.

Micro four thirds cameras do more (especially for the price) and overall are more helpful (getting the correct composition for more situations) than any other system including smartphones.

It's really just that simple.

Normal people don't look at a photo and say damn those colors are great and the composition is incredibly moving, but there is bit more noise and a little less DR than is possible with a different camera.

They do look at images with no noise and tons of DR and say that is one ugly snapshoot.
 
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