DOF Vs 35mm

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Firstly I like shallow DOF but this camera seems to have less DOF
for a given F stop than my recent memories of full frame 35.
This must be my imagination as it should have more DOF than
35mm film , correct ?

I'm using the kit lens.

Peter
 
You are right. This is something most people tend to forget.

I has less DOF for a given F-Stop. At the same aperture, the same focal lenght and the same print size, you are enlarging 1.6x more with this camera than with a 35mm camera.

This is because DOF is also influenced by the enlargement. For instance, the DOF scales on most lenses are for 10x15 outputs.

Cheers,

Leo
Firstly I like shallow DOF but this camera seems to have less DOF
for a given F stop than my recent memories of full frame 35.
This must be my imagination as it should have more DOF than
35mm film , correct ?

I'm using the kit lens.

Peter
 
Firstly I like shallow DOF but this camera seems to have less DOF
for a given F stop than my recent memories of full frame 35.
This must be my imagination as it should have more DOF than
35mm film , correct ?
If you setup a 35mm film camera and a 300D at the same distance from the subject and use the same lens and same aperture, then the 300D image will show less depth of field due to the additional 1.6 enlargement factor. However, the images the two cameras produce will have different framing, of course, which makes this comparison somewhat irrelevant, I think.

If you do a more realistic comparison where you use a shorter focal length on the 300d to match the same framing (or move further away), then you'll see greater depth of field on the 300d. To achieve equivalent depth of field, the 300D will need to use an aperture 1.6x bigger (i.e. f-number smaller) than the 35mm.

There's a good description of these issues here:
http://www.photo.net/learn/optics/dofdigital/
-harry
 
So your saying the 300D has less DOF than 35?

Thanks Peter
I has less DOF for a given F-Stop. At the same aperture, the same
focal lenght and the same print size, you are enlarging 1.6x more
with this camera than with a 35mm camera.

This is because DOF is also influenced by the enlargement. For
instance, the DOF scales on most lenses are for 10x15 outputs.

Cheers,

Leo
Firstly I like shallow DOF but this camera seems to have less DOF
for a given F stop than my recent memories of full frame 35.
This must be my imagination as it should have more DOF than
35mm film , correct ?

I'm using the kit lens.

Peter
 
Thanks for your response, I will check the link. My initial logic
was small sensor - large DOF, full frame - small DOF with the
300D showhere in the middle but there's more too than that.

Peter
Firstly I like shallow DOF but this camera seems to have less DOF
for a given F stop than my recent memories of full frame 35.
This must be my imagination as it should have more DOF than
35mm film , correct ?
If you setup a 35mm film camera and a 300D at the same distance
from the subject and use the same lens and same aperture, then the
300D image will show less depth of field due to the additional 1.6
enlargement factor. However, the images the two cameras produce
will have different framing, of course, which makes this comparison
somewhat irrelevant, I think.

If you do a more realistic comparison where you use a shorter focal
length on the 300d to match the same framing (or move further
away), then you'll see greater depth of field on the 300d. To
achieve equivalent depth of field, the 300D will need to use an
aperture 1.6x bigger (i.e. f-number smaller) than the 35mm.

There's a good description of these issues here:
http://www.photo.net/learn/optics/dofdigital/
-harry
 
I noticed it also. I don't recall being this hampered (crippled? lol) by DOF with my AE-1 and FD lenses. If I had to list one aspect of the 300D that I just can't stand it's the ridiculously short DOF. I don't want to shoot every picture like it's a macro! Sorry to say that btw...

No matter what F stop I shoot at I can't get any real depth to my shots. Bokeh etc. but there are times when you really want that nice deep crisp DOF.

It also seems that the 300D underexposes for a given aperature compared to a 35mm film slr. To me anyway...

I'm not much on the science of why this may or may not be true, I'm only going by my gut feelings after shooting it for about 4 weeks.

Soon I will load up my AE-1 and do some amateur measurebating to satisfy my curiousity.

I'd like to know what others think....

--

Just think, if every key-stroke was a shutter-press we would all be pros by now...
 
It has its benefits...for instance, sports photos and portraiture, where the shallow DOF will lead to increased background blur which may make a photo look more professional (like it was taken with a bigger lens)...right?

From the landscape photos I've seen I haven't noticed a problem with DOF..agree/disagree?
 
Actually, the DOF is larger in the DR - for a given 35 mm field of view (35 mm equivalent focal length -- the DOF is greater in a DR. See this new thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=6369420

Paul
------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic/photos
Olympus E-10,TCON-14B, WCON, FL 40, ND, polarizer, closeup, macro
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003 All rights reserved.
 
Peter,

If we compare two cameras with different sensor sizes, under the following conditions:
  • Same focus distance (distance to subject)
  • Same circle of confusion criterion (relative to image size)
  • Same field of view (35 mm equivalent of focal length)
then the same depth of field performance will be achieved on the two cameras with apertures whose f-numbers are proportional to sensor/film frame size.

So, for example, on the 300D, with sensor size 0.63 of the size of the film frame on a 35 mm camera, the depth of field performance achieved on the 35 mm camera with an aperture of f/5.6 would be achieved on the 300D with an aperture of f/3.5.

Looking at it another way (again under the conditions noted above), if we look at hyperfocal distance as one indicator of depth of field performance, then for the same aperture, the hyperfocal distance on the 300D would be 0.63 times the hyperfocal distance on the 35 mm camera. (Hyperfocal distance is that distance such that, with the camera focused at that distance, all objects from half that distance to infinity will be in focus within our circle of confusion criterion.)

Thus, in summary, compared to a 35 mm camera (again under the conditions noted above), the 300D:
  • WIll give the same DOF performance with a larger aperture
  • WIll give greater DOF for a given aperture.
Sorry to state all this in such an elaborate way, but simpler statements comparing depth of field performance don't really work.

I hestitate to use the term "better DOF performance" since there are some workers whose outlook is that smaller DOF is "better"!

Best regards,

Doug
 
I noticed it also. I don't recall being this hampered (crippled?
lol) by DOF with my AE-1 and FD lenses.
The difference in depth of field between a 300d and 35mm film camera is small, a little over one stop's worth of aperture.

If you have the impression that the 300d has very shallow depth of field, then I'd suspect it has something to do with viewing every 300d image up-close and personal on a big monitor vs. viewing smaller prints made from a film camera. I don't know your usage pattern, of course, but there are plenty of shooters out there who have 4x6 prints made from their film negatives, but view their digital images full-size on a 20" monitor.
-harry
 
For the same print size, the same lens, the same perspective and the same aperture, YES. It is kind of a moot point, since the picture would be different, due to the 1.6 crop.

By the way, if you crop a 35 mm to the same factor, it will have the same DOF as a 300d.

Cheers,
Leo
Thanks Peter
I has less DOF for a given F-Stop. At the same aperture, the same
focal lenght and the same print size, you are enlarging 1.6x more
with this camera than with a 35mm camera.

This is because DOF is also influenced by the enlargement. For
instance, the DOF scales on most lenses are for 10x15 outputs.

Cheers,

Leo
Firstly I like shallow DOF but this camera seems to have less DOF
for a given F stop than my recent memories of full frame 35.
This must be my imagination as it should have more DOF than
35mm film , correct ?

I'm using the kit lens.

Peter
 
I noticed it also. I don't recall being this hampered (crippled?
lol) by DOF with my AE-1 and FD lenses. If I had to list one
aspect of the 300D that I just can't stand it's the ridiculously
short DOF. I don't want to shoot every picture like it's a macro!
Sorry to say that btw...

No matter what F stop I shoot at I can't get any real depth to my
shots. Bokeh etc. but there are times when you really want that
nice deep crisp DOF.
The 300D, like any dSLR with an APS-C sensor size, has a greater DOF than 35mm, not less. So, it you had no issue with your AE-1 having too shallow a DOF, you should not have any with the 300D. Indeed, you need to open the F-stop of the 300D by an addition 1.35 stops (a ratio in F-stop numbers of 1.6) to reduce its DOF to that of a 35mm camera framed to the same field of view. That is, to produce the equivalent image (both field of view and depth of field) from an 80mm lens on your AE-1 set to F8.0, you'd need to put a 50mm lens on your 300D and open the aperture to F5.0.

This all assumes that you are defining depth of field the same in both cases: in a final print of equivalent size and showing the same field of view, using the same circle of confusion as defined either by the dimension on the final print or by a given percentage of the overall image size.

David
 
Doug,

That's what I thought too, going back to the small sensor =
large DOF logic the 300D should be in the middle.

I've asked our cinematographer and lens technician about this
they reckon image size has nothing
to do with DOF, its purely a function of lens / aperture.

They think its the fact that a 17mm lens is acting like
a 28mm and therefor a longer lens with corresponding
less DOF.

Maybe iI'll just forget about it and enjoy some more shots.

Thanks for your response.

Peter
Peter,

If we compare two cameras with different sensor sizes, under the
following conditions:
  • Same focus distance (distance to subject)
  • Same circle of confusion criterion (relative to image size)
  • Same field of view (35 mm equivalent of focal length)
then the same depth of field performance will be achieved on the
two cameras with apertures whose f-numbers are proportional to
sensor/film frame size.

So, for example, on the 300D, with sensor size 0.63 of the size of
the film frame on a 35 mm camera, the depth of field performance
achieved on the 35 mm camera with an aperture of f/5.6 would be
achieved on the 300D with an aperture of f/3.5.

Looking at it another way (again under the conditions noted above),
if we look at hyperfocal distance as one indicator of depth of
field performance, then for the same aperture, the hyperfocal
distance on the 300D would be 0.63 times the hyperfocal distance on
the 35 mm camera. (Hyperfocal distance is that distance such that,
with the camera focused at that distance, all objects from half
that distance to infinity will be in focus within our circle of
confusion criterion.)

Thus, in summary, compared to a 35 mm camera (again under the
conditions noted above), the 300D:
  • WIll give the same DOF performance with a larger aperture
  • WIll give greater DOF for a given aperture.
Sorry to state all this in such an elaborate way, but simpler
statements comparing depth of field performance don't really work.

I hestitate to use the term "better DOF performance" since there
are some workers whose outlook is that smaller DOF is "better"!

Best regards,

Doug
 
I've asked our cinematographer and lens technician about this
they reckon image size has nothing
to do with DOF, its purely a function of lens / aperture.
Tell him he is wrong. CoC is one of the main functions in any DOF calculator. This fact only takes 15 seconds with photoshop to prove. Alternatively, look at any tutorial on DOF.
They think its the fact that a 17mm lens is acting like
a 28mm and therefor a longer lens with corresponding
less DOF.
No, this is not true. If this were true a Sony with a 50mm lens would "act" like a 200mm lens but it does not, it has tons of DOF. In fact since every lens corresponds to the field of view of SOME 35mm lens you could say that every format has the same DOF. Obviously this is false.

Short and sweet: if you take a picture from the same spot of the same object with the same lens the 300D you will have 1.6x LESS DOF than with a 35mm camera. If you instead step back 1.6x further so the shot is framed the same as the 35mm camera, the DOF will be 1.6x MORE with the 300D.

Jason
 
quote -

There is no difference between depth of filed on 16mm or 35mm In the lastest manual the charts simply give data for lens focal lengths without reference to film format.

The slight confusion over this comes from the fact the to obtain the same size frame/picture,ie a shot of the back dock door, shooting 16mm you need to use a lens about half the focal length of what you would use to get the same size shot on 35mm. This by default means the wider lens choice for 16mm would also have a greater depth of field.
The actual information used to calculate depth of field is;

Hyperfocal distance( lens-f stop-Circle of confusion), focal lens lenght, distance camera to object
I've asked our cinematographer and lens technician about this
they reckon image size has nothing
to do with DOF, its purely a function of lens / aperture.
Tell him he is wrong. CoC is one of the main functions in any DOF
calculator. This fact only takes 15 seconds with photoshop to
prove. Alternatively, look at any tutorial on DOF.
They think its the fact that a 17mm lens is acting like
a 28mm and therefor a longer lens with corresponding
less DOF.
No, this is not true. If this were true a Sony with a 50mm lens
would "act" like a 200mm lens but it does not, it has tons of DOF.
In fact since every lens corresponds to the field of view of SOME
35mm lens you could say that every format has the same DOF.
Obviously this is false.


Short and sweet: if you take a picture from the same spot of the
same object with the same lens the 300D you will have 1.6x LESS DOF
than with a 35mm camera. If you instead step back 1.6x further so
the shot is framed the same as the 35mm camera, the DOF will be
1.6x MORE with the 300D.

Jason
 
The actual information used to calculate depth of field is;
Hyperfocal distance( lens-f stop-Circle of confusion), focal lens
lenght, distance camera to object
Although you have some terms mixed up here, you got circle of confusion in there which is the key. That's the different between a small format and a large format for the same print size. That is, with a small format the circle of confusion is smaller than a large format because of the increased magnification of the negative. That is to say, a shot taken with the same lens focal length on a smaller format camera will result in LESS dof than the larger format camera. EG. A 300D will have less DOF than a 35mm camera with the same lens and subject distance and print size.
quote -
There is no difference between depth of filed on 16mm or 35mm In
the lastest manual the charts simply give data for lens focal
lengths without reference to film format.
These charts are approximations based on assumed magnifications. The only case for this to be true is the case of the 16mm format being blown up to 50% the size (16/35) of the 35mm image. This is a reasonable assumption for that case, but not for specific photographic use.
The slight confusion over this comes from the fact the to obtain
the same size frame/picture,ie a shot of the back dock door,
shooting 16mm you need to use a lens about half the focal length of
what you would use to get the same size shot on 35mm. This by
default means the wider lens choice for 16mm would also have a
greater depth of field.
While this is a true statement, it's hardly a source of confusion. It's interesting to note whoever made this statement did not say how much more DOF the 16mm shot would have. It's fairly trivial math for the middle distances where this is most commonly applied.

Jason
 
'That is to say, a shot taken with the same lens focal length on a smaller format camera will result in LESS dof than the larger format camera. EG. A 300D will have less DOF than a 35mm camera with the same lens and subject distance and print size.'

Yes my experience with the 300D agrees with this, but
why do prosumer cameras , real small format, have greater
less controllable DOF ?

Peter
 
You are missing an important point. There is MORE DOF on the 300D when you match field of view with a 35 mm camera. To understand this, do a thought experiment. Imagine a camera with a factor of 10 instead of 1.6. If you use a 30 mm lens on one, it will be the equivalent of 300mm lens on the other. Would comparison of the DOF be relevant? No. One would be a highly magnifed view, the other a wide angle. The same is true for a factor of 1.6, only less so.

You must compare DOF with lenses that give equivalent fields of view...

Read any of the DOF articles mentioned in this thread or elsewhere and this will be clear to you. This one is particularly good:

http://dfleming.ameranet.com/dof_dslr.html

Paul
'That is to say, a shot taken with the same lens focal length on a
smaller format camera will result in LESS dof than the larger
format camera. EG. A 300D will have less DOF than a 35mm camera
with the same lens and subject distance and print size.'

Yes my experience with the 300D agrees with this, but
why do prosumer cameras , real small format, have greater
less controllable DOF ?

Peter
--
Paul
------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic/photos
Olympus E-10,TCON-14B, WCON, FL 40, ND, polarizer, closeup, macro
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003 All rights reserved.
 
You are missing an important point. There is MORE DOF on the 300D
when you match field of view with a 35 mm camera. To understand
this, do a thought experiment. Imagine a camera with a factor of
10 instead of 1.6. If you use a 30 mm lens on one, it will be the
equivalent of 300mm lens on the other. Would comparison of the DOF
be relevant? No. One would be a highly magnifed view, the other a
wide angle. The same is true for a factor of 1.6, only less so.

You must compare DOF with lenses that give equivalent fields of
view...

Read any of the DOF articles mentioned in this thread or elsewhere
and this will be clear to you. This one is particularly good:

http://dfleming.ameranet.com/dof_dslr.html

Paul
This topic needs to be put to rest sometime. It's being treated throughout the forum like it's complicated or subject to opinion. In fact, it's straightforward, specific and exact.

For two cameras with different sensor sizes, fitted with lens of different focal lengths in order to yield identical fields of view (same 50mm on a 300D, 80mm on a 35mm film camera):

a) If apertures are identical, smaller sensor = greater depth of field, by a ratio equal to the so-called crop factor.

b) If the smaller sensor camera opens its aperture by an amount equal to the crop factor (say 1.6x, or 1.35 stops), DoF becomes equal.

Thus, a 300D with 50mm at F5.0 has the same field of view AND depth of field (that is, an identical image) to a 35mm camera with 80mm lens at F8.0.

David
 
Unfortunately, you and I and many others on this forum have simplified this topic - it is more complex than you think. To prove this, look carefully at this graph:



It is from this article, which is well worth reading:

http://www.photo.net/learn/optics/dofdigital/

Paul
You are missing an important point. There is MORE DOF on the 300D
when you match field of view with a 35 mm camera. To understand
this, do a thought experiment. Imagine a camera with a factor of
10 instead of 1.6. If you use a 30 mm lens on one, it will be the
equivalent of 300mm lens on the other. Would comparison of the DOF
be relevant? No. One would be a highly magnifed view, the other a
wide angle. The same is true for a factor of 1.6, only less so.

You must compare DOF with lenses that give equivalent fields of
view...

Read any of the DOF articles mentioned in this thread or elsewhere
and this will be clear to you. This one is particularly good:

http://dfleming.ameranet.com/dof_dslr.html

Paul
This topic needs to be put to rest sometime. It's being treated
throughout the forum like it's complicated or subject to opinion.
In fact, it's straightforward, specific and exact.

For two cameras with different sensor sizes, fitted with lens of
different focal lengths in order to yield identical fields of view
(same 50mm on a 300D, 80mm on a 35mm film camera):

a) If apertures are identical, smaller sensor = greater depth of
field, by a ratio equal to the so-called crop factor.

b) If the smaller sensor camera opens its aperture by an amount
equal to the crop factor (say 1.6x, or 1.35 stops), DoF becomes
equal.

Thus, a 300D with 50mm at F5.0 has the same field of view AND depth
of field (that is, an identical image) to a 35mm camera with 80mm
lens at F8.0.

David
--
Paul
------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic/photos
Olympus E-10,TCON-14B, WCON, FL 40, ND, polarizer, closeup, macro
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003 All rights reserved.
 

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