Are Sony ever going to release an updated APS-C body?

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Despite years of rumour that Sony will release a pro or prosumer APS-C camera body, they still haven't . I took a look at a Nikon Z50 recently and other than the pentaprism-style hump, it's not much bigger than, say an A6500, but has much better ergonomics.

Granted the Z50 doesn't have IBIS but given the promising lens line-up and future lenses, it's tempting to ditch my Sony gear and switch to Nikon mirrorless.

Is anyone else thinking along the same lines?
 
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Sony seems to act like certain features like a front dial are "Full Frame Only." I would not wait for them to completely change their APSC philosophy on ergonomics.

On the other hand, the Z50 is pretty much the weakest body and system. 2 lenses @f/6.3 with one more kit zoom planned (no sane person would buy Z glass and throw it on an $800 body without IBIS). Old 20mp sensor. No touchpad or joystick. UHS-I slot. It's just behind in almost every area.

The X-T4 is probably what you're looking for.
 
I took a look at a Nikon Z50 recently and other than the pentaprism-style hump, it's not much bigger than, say an A6500, but has much better ergonomics.
The very same could be said of the A6600...which has a very similar, larger, deeper grip like the Z50. Ergonomics is entirely personal, and I find Sony has always been among the better ones for me, with Nikons generally second. I rarely find Canons comfortable, and strongly dislike the general Fuji designs with no grips to speak of. But others may differ. Between the Z50 and A6600, I like the A6600's lower, slimmer profile without the big hump, and the left-mount EVF.
Granted the Z50 doesn't have IBIS but given the promising lens line-up and future lenses, it's tempting to ditch my Sony gear and switch to Nikon mirrorless.
I don't see how Nikon's lens lineup would be any more promising than Sony's...and in fact has a very long way to go to catch up to Sony's current 60 lens offerings for e-mount, plus 50 third party AF native e-mount lenses for a total of 101. Of course what matters is whether the lineup has the lens you want or need. Sony covers my needs and beyond at the moment - with Nikon's Z lineup, I'd be out of luck and unable to shoot most of what I shoot.

Is anyone else thinking along the same lines?
Buy what makes you happy. For me, the A6600 is that updated Sony APS-C having just come out a mere 2 months ago, with the best/most advanced AF system in APS-C, and among the best of any mirrorless camera, and the best battery life to boot. But there are wonderful cameras out there from many different manufacturers, so there should be enough to keep everyone happy.
 
Despite years of rumour that Sony will release a pro or prosumer APS-C camera body, they still haven't . I took a look at a Nikon Z50 recently and other than the pentaprism-style hump, it's not much bigger than, say an A6500, but has much better ergonomics.
I personally don't like the design of the A6xxx cameras either, but this is largely personal. I doubt an A7 style APS camera is on the road map.
Granted the Z50 doesn't have IBIS but given the promising lens line-up and future lenses, it's tempting to ditch my Sony gear and switch to Nikon mirrorless.
Eh? Promising lens line up for DX? If your talking about the Z series ingeneral, then yes it is getting there, but it is miles away from even Sony's current APS line up.
Is anyone else thinking along the same lines?
In a sense I do - I would love an mini A9: stacked APS sensor in an A7 style body.
 
Granted the Z50 doesn't have IBIS but given the promising lens line-up and future lenses, it's tempting to ditch my Sony gear and switch to Nikon mirrorless.

Is anyone else thinking along the same lines?
That's a completely unacceptable compromise, I will never move to a body without IBIS.

I also have zero problems with the ergonomics on the a6500, it could benefit from an extra dial but it's fine without.

Also having that prism hump makes it far less compact because of height. I can fit my a6500 in my bag and it won't be super bulky because of how short it is. If it has a longer grip or a prism hump it won't be short any more and it will be bulky, I don't want that at all.
 
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Despite years of rumour that Sony will release a pro or prosumer APS-C camera body, they still haven't . I took a look at a Nikon Z50 recently and other than the pentaprism-style hump, it's not much bigger than, say an A6500, but has much better ergonomics.

Granted the Z50 doesn't have IBIS but given the promising lens line-up and future lenses, it's tempting to ditch my Sony gear and switch to Nikon mirrorless.

Is anyone else thinking along the same lines?
I'm probably not on the same wave as you. Prosumer body is A6600 with bigger grip, bigger battery and IBIS.

I didn't hear about Nikon promising lens line. What are the upcoming apsc lenses? So far I know only about released two kitlenses.
 
Despite years of rumour that Sony will release a pro or prosumer APS-C camera body, they still haven't . I took a look at a Nikon Z50 recently and other than the pentaprism-style hump, it's not much bigger than, say an A6500, but has much better ergonomics.

Granted the Z50 doesn't have IBIS but given the promising lens line-up and future lenses, it's tempting to ditch my Sony gear and switch to Nikon mirrorless.

Is anyone else thinking along the same lines?
So, what is negatively affecting your images with any of the A6... APS-C cameras right now?

That is the question you should ask yourself and tell us about.

Sure a BMW beats any old Toyota by curve appeal, but which drives smoother, more economically?

So: what camera could improve your image keeper rate. I believe we, the photogs, are the weakest link when shooting. If we, you, I were to improve our image taking, all would be fine. Gear lust is just one of those c... type viruses that stop us, you and me from being creative artists of life.

My 2 cents.
 
Despite years of rumour that Sony will release a pro or prosumer APS-C camera body, they still haven't . I took a look at a Nikon Z50 recently and other than the pentaprism-style hump, it's not much bigger than, say an A6500, but has much better ergonomics.

Granted the Z50 doesn't have IBIS but given the promising lens line-up and future lenses, it's tempting to ditch my Sony gear and switch to Nikon mirrorless.

Is anyone else thinking along the same lines?
My opinion is that Sony knows full well the capability of APS-C, and will not risk its higher margin full frame business. As such, its APS-C line will remained crippled enough to give users willing to pay the money good reason to move up to the A7 series. Sony could easily build a kick ass APS-C camera to compete with Fuji and Nikon, but deliberately chooses not to IMO. I held out hope last year that maybe they would be willing to compete with the X-T3, but the release of the a6600 made clear to me that APS-C will remain second fiddle to them.

In practice, unless you're a professional who uses your camera for hours at a time, just go out and enjoy the a6000 series cameras for what they are -- tiny technical marvels, with great image quality. Their size and convenience often outweighs their ergonomic limitations.
 
In practice, unless you're a professional who uses your camera for hours at a time, just go out and enjoy the a6000 series cameras for what they are -- tiny technical marvels, with great image quality. Their size and convenience often outweighs their ergonomic limitations.
Well said. Even the ergonomics is not as terrible as many describe it. Many equate that to direct manual controls - partially a thing of the past.

Ergonomics is not subjective only it is measured on specific user scenarios, where each is weighted based on intended use/frequency. If the new AF AI helps me with 90% of the cases (thus no manual intervention was required to begin with) and in 10% of the cases I had one more click than I would have on another brand - what does that give? I am sure the number of button customization will score very well too as it gives one the ability to tie ergonomics to intended use. How many other brands support this to such extend? There is stuff that Sony could carry over from the A7 series but sadly they are protecting their FF line.
 
In a sense I do - I would love an mini A9: stacked APS sensor in an A7 style body.
That would be great! Handling is of course more than how a body sits in the hand. In that regard Sony is very clunky. For example assignable buttons don't actually "do" anything other than sending you to the menu, with countless presses neede to actuate a setting :-(
 
The "problem" is that a "top of the line" APS-C body that costs $1500ish is running directly into the Full Frame Sony lineup.



We already have an A6400, A6500 and A6600. I'm not sure how much more you can ask for without again running into Full Frame prices. Many of us are APS-C owners because we don't want to spend thousands on a body.



I just bought the A6400 and for $720 I can find very little to complain about. Sony continues to make better and better lenses, (that comes with higher prices), and I think this should be their focus for now.
 
Despite years of rumour that Sony will release a pro or prosumer APS-C camera body, they still haven't .
Granted the Z50 doesn't have IBIS but given the promising lens line-up and future lenses, it's tempting to ditch my Sony gear and switch to Nikon mirrorless.
I'm not sure what you've been reading, but all I've seen from Nikon for APS-C are two kit zooms and the promise of a third.

A fairly recent interview posted here on dpreview suggests that Nikon views APS-C as a compact/consumer alternative to FF.

So if you're looking for "pro or prosumer APS-C" don't look to Nikon, unless all you care about are twin control dials. (Or you're content using all FF lenses).

Fuji and m43 are going to offer the most comprehensive crop systems.

I shoot Nikon DX (F mount) ... shot e-mount alongside it for years before selling it. I doubt I would ever move to APS-C Z mount when I (eventually) go mirrorless. Probably FF Z (though I would consider other brands, since I'd probably end up migrating to native mirrorless lenses sooner or later) ... or Fuji or m43 if I decide I really want something more compact.

- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
Despite years of rumour that Sony will release a pro or prosumer APS-C camera body, they still haven't . I took a look at a Nikon Z50 recently and other than the pentaprism-style hump, it's not much bigger than, say an A6500, but has much better ergonomics.

Granted the Z50 doesn't have IBIS but given the promising lens line-up and future lenses, it's tempting to ditch my Sony gear and switch to Nikon mirrorless.

Is anyone else thinking along the same lines?
Postpone your change until those "promising lens line-up and future lenses" actually happen.

Until then, your question is entirely metaphorical. No, that's not the word... It's... It's...

<wanders off scratching head>.

--
Just a taker of snapshots. Getting better at it!
 
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For example assignable buttons don't actually "do" anything other than sending you to the menu, with countless presses neede to actuate a setting :-(
Indeed that is very stupid. Apart from the few 'hold' and 'toggle' options, I would like to see 'cycle' buttons.
 
For example assignable buttons don't actually "do" anything other than sending you to the menu, with countless presses neede to actuate a setting :-(
Indeed that is very stupid. Apart from the few 'hold' and 'toggle' options, I would like to see 'cycle' buttons.
The problem is that "cycle" button only works when there are only 3 options or so. Unless there is a way to limit the number of choices (like focus area), cycle won't work very well. In many cases button that opens menu actually makes more sense, if menu doesn't block the view (like focus mode, drive mode, iso)
 
Despite years of rumour that Sony will release a pro or prosumer APS-C camera body, they still haven't . I took a look at a Nikon Z50 recently and other than the pentaprism-style hump, it's not much bigger than, say an A6500, but has much better ergonomics.

Granted the Z50 doesn't have IBIS but given the promising lens line-up and future lenses, it's tempting to ditch my Sony gear and switch to Nikon mirrorless.

Is anyone else thinking along the same lines?
I am not.

And this post offers no compelling arguments to even consider it. But if you want to get a Nikon then do it. I hear they make good photography gear.

I am not a good enough photographer to switch brands but maybe you are.
 
Despite years of rumour that Sony will release a pro or prosumer APS-C camera body, they still haven't . I took a look at a Nikon Z50 recently and other than the pentaprism-style hump, it's not much bigger than, say an A6500, but has much better ergonomics.

Granted the Z50 doesn't have IBIS but given the promising lens line-up and future lenses, it's tempting to ditch my Sony gear and switch to Nikon mirrorless.

Is anyone else thinking along the same lines?
The a6600 has the best overall 24mp aps-c/crop sensor ever measured for dr and noise, these are indisputable facts. It amounts to around 0.5 to 0.75 ev stops between the worst ie original a6000 to the best ie the a6400 prior to the a6600. It is a "huge" amount in relative terms and opens/narrows the gap between competition/FF options such that the a6600 is placed in a very unique spot, well above any other mirrorless aps-c and just behind the very best FF milc for sensor performance, in a nutshell it has the dr and high iso noise of essentially the previous generation Sony ff the a7ii, this is probably the closest approximation to the sensor performance for dr/noise, in every way it is equivalent to FF and with the correct lens even better than FF imo, some comparisons for perspective;

Below a6600

1inch around 2 full stops less, a lot!

m43 around -1.2(best) to -1.7ev(worst) 20mp sensor c/w a6600

Fuji x-t3(4) -0.66 ev c/w a6600

Fuji x-h1/x-t2 -1.0 ev c/w a6600

Fuji x-pro2 -1.2 ev c/w a6600

Canon m6 ii -1.0ev c/w a6600

and some FF below the a6600

Canon eos R -0.33ev c/w a6600

Leica q2 -0.2 ev c/w a6600

sony a9 -0.5 ev c/w a6600

and parity with a6600

Nikon z6 parity c/w a6600

sony a9 ii parity(just) c/w a6600

sony a7 ii (just)

and a6600 is slightly behind in dr/noise

a7 iii +0.6ev c/w a6600

a7r3/4 +0.6ev c/w a6600

z7 +0.6 ev c/w a6600

a6600 might not tick all of the gadget fans list of must have's but for those of us who approach photography from a more "realistic" and "purist" perspective these are the defining elements that make the a6600 one of if not the best overall compact crop camera available today, some other factors;

Base iso 100.

Sony produce cameras with base iso 100, a low base iso is the most basic feature of all! Can you imagine as a photographer being told you can't use iso 100 film anymore, well if you use Fuji crop or m43 that is the situation! Their top end models have 1/8000 sec shutter speeds but reality is they are only 1/4000 equivalent and even worse the lower end models are 1/2000 equivalent. OK, they added in many cases an e-shutter, but do I trust it, no, do I use it, sometimes but not often, where would I use it, where I need to be quiet? where would that be, generally in doors, do I get high shutter speed in door, no! So e-shutter is useful, but I would not use it if I want maximum dr, many cameras switch to 12 bit in e-shutter too and not to mention apart from the a9 the issues with rolling shutter. So for base iso 100 alone, Sony has a lot of things going for it already and this most basic feature of all isn't even included on many cameras, many rated essential by dpr/ir/etc etc, I find it shocking and almost incredible that they continue to ignore this not to mention 2 historic photographic companies like Fuji and Olympus, can't even provide iso 100, the most basic feature of all!

Noise

Without a shadow of a doubt the a6600 measure as well as the best aps-c sensors ever made for noise, so we are talking clean noise free images upto iso3200, a bit of noise above there making post processing necessary. Now, the a7iii moved this up a notch/stop to iso6400 meanwhile the a7r3 was iso 5700 and a7r4 iso 4700, so the denser the sensor the more noise there is. In crop on the a7r3 and a7r4 they are 2600 and 2300 respectively so a7r3 is definitely the cleaner option and it is less packed.

On aps-c the new m6ii/90d sensor is very poor with noise performance, lenstip observed a 1 stop poorer performance than the a6600 and this is not quite seen in measurement but close to, ie the Canon is good to iso1600 and a bit, whereas the a6600 is pushing iso 3200, 1 stop. But obviously there are even more factors when comparing against the Canon line and other 24mp ff options. In all cases the denser the sensor the poorer the noise performance and the Canon 32mp is a great example of how bad everything can get ie a combination of high noise/poor dr and resolution, not to mention the shortage of native lenses for the format in the m's case.

Resolution

In all of lenstip's measurements they conclude that the a6600 without an aa filter is capable of resolution significantly higher than the new Canon 32mp sensor and in their tests better than the x-t3 at the time of testing. There won't be much between the 24 and 26 in reality but the Canon is a real surprise, well it is and it isn't. Unfortunately its blessed with the same issue as all of the 24mp ff cameras and many other Canon's incl. the eosR, a very destructive aa filter. You need them with larger pixels and low pixel counts but it sort of flips around 24mp, why Canon put an aa on their 32mp sensor, no idea, maybe because they didn't want it to embarrass the eosR, no idea, but they have and it's a detail killer. Now, what this also leads people to assume is the lack of detail is an indication of low noise too, that's how it looks but it means as you attempt to compensate by over-sharpening it all falls apart spectacularly. Sony do some weird stuff under the hood with the a7iii raw files, sharpening and noise reduction too but you can't get away from the fact the images are soft and detail has been rubbed away especially in the vertical plane where the aa is strongest, with the z6 its stronger in the horizontal on the Canon, well it's just strong overall.

Af

Do we really need to go here, the af on the a6600/a6400/a6100 is the state of the art, Sony are a mean bunch though, I know why and they know why, lets hope they are watching what I am saying, as good as it is and it's pretty faultless they know they can make the a6600 even better, Sony you know what I am saying!!!!

ibis

Apart from m43 there are only 3 aps-c ibis mirrorless cameras, until tomorrow lol, a6500, a6600 and x-h1, x-t4, I'd say the a6500 was decent but it was behind the x-h1, the a6600 is definitely better, not infinitely that it surpasses the x-h1 but the x-h1 and 16-55 and a6600 and 16-55 feel similar and probably favour the a6600 due to weight, that and the fact I needed to carry at least 2 spare batteries with the x-h1, and sometime 4 wasn't enough. Maybe the battery is helping the a6600, it would make sense that they can drive it harder with more power on tap for longer.

So, I conclude that the a6600 is one of the greatest compact bodies ever made, it actually is a little less compact than the other a6x series, the grip and battery push it to 500g and boy does it feel nice in hand, 450-500g is again the sweet spot imo, neither too big or too light, for me anyway it's a very comfortable weight, especially with the enlarged grip and incredible battery life, the em1 ii is nearly 600g along with the g9 etc which are even bigger and over 650g, so the a6600 is positively svelte like in comparison to those bodies. But the a6600 is everything and more besides;

corner evf give it that rangefinder esque look and it looks much less dslr than just about everything available today with the level of performance inside. I get that it doesn't have the highest res evf, but my x-h1 did and it was useless in mag mode, useless, I haven't used the 7r3/4 in mag mode so I don't know if they are the same but the x-t3 had the same evf as the x-h1 so I can only conclude it will be just as bad. The a6600 evf is very fluid though and shows no traceable smearing or tearing effects, in many respects its a state of the art evf and I have zero problems with it, I'll take it over the x-h1 every single day of the week.

What does the a6600 lack, well for me it lacks nothing of any consequence, I found the 50 frame raw buffer and 25 sec clearing for 50 raws slightly better than the experience on the x-h1/x-t2 despite the uhs-ii slots, each could do around 30 raws, which can be an issue mid-burst, where 5 secs at 8 fps is quite enough usually with the option to go to 6 or even 7 secs in a single burst with the a6600. X-t2/x-h1 would take around 10-15 seconds to clear from memory, so they seem comparable, ie 60 cleared frames in around 30 seconds and approximately 100 frames per minute including clearing, this is using the lexar gold uhs-ii 2000x, despite the a6600 being uhs-i. I prefer the a6600 to just about anything I have ever used for burst, the g9 could do longer but it topped out at 9fps with af and the em1 ii was 10fps and af/ae. So overall the a6600 is capable and they all have their little quirks, shooting 40 frame bursts seems a none issue and slows you down by around what a few seconds if you fill the buffer and have to wait, big wow!

One final plus for the a6600, the rear lcd, thank goodness they didn't make it look like a camcorder, wow the lcd tilts and pulls out to allow every possible angle including in portrait mode I find the viewing angles and the ability to tilt in multiple ways the best thing ever, the a6600, imo, is one of if not the best camera designs ever;

dr,noise,size,resolution,af,ibis,screen,evf,weather-sealing, buffer, burst, battery, grip, weight,lens options,buttons,touch-pad etc etc., it is simply the best!
 
In practice, unless you're a professional who uses your camera for hours at a time, just go out and enjoy the a6000 series cameras for what they are -- tiny technical marvels, with great image quality. Their size and convenience often outweighs their ergonomic limitations.
Well said. Even the ergonomics is not as terrible as many describe it. Many equate that to direct manual controls - partially a thing of the past.

Ergonomics is not subjective only it is measured on specific user scenarios, where each is weighted based on intended use/frequency. If the new AF AI helps me with 90% of the cases (thus no manual intervention was required to begin with) and in 10% of the cases I had one more click than I would have on another brand - what does that give? I am sure the number of button customization will score very well too as it gives one the ability to tie ergonomics to intended use. How many other brands support this to such extend? There is stuff that Sony could carry over from the A7 series but sadly they are protecting their FF line.
This a very well grounded and sober way of looking at Sony's ergonomics in this line. I hear reviewers bash Sony APS-C ergonomics, and can't help but feel that while a little extra functionality might be nice (front control wheel), ergonomics are really not that bad. For me the size and weight of a camera are a MAJOR part of the ergonomic consideration, and there the a6000 series certainly nails it.
 
For me the size and weight of a camera are a MAJOR part of the ergonomic consideration, and there the a6000 series certainly nails it.
That's it in a nutshell. Sony offers the still-modestly-sized A7 series for those who want something "more" (and you can piece together a nice system that's competitive in price to a Fuji X-T4) ... they've apparently decided that APS-C is for the size-conscious consumer and ... for better or worse ... stuck to their guns while even Olympus is making cameras that are bigger than FF mirrorless and rival DSLRs in size!

Nikon has decided APS-C is for the size/budget conscious consumer and shows no hint of intending to up their game and turn it into a serious system.

Canon ? Who knows, with their dual mounts. I wouldn't get involved with EOS-M.

But Sony, Canon and Nikon have all decided that FF is where they're going to put their money and where they expect serious photographers to spend theirs and I don't see any of them expanding their APS-C systems beyond the niche they've carved out for them.

- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
In practice, unless you're a professional who uses your camera for hours at a time, just go out and enjoy the a6000 series cameras for what they are -- tiny technical marvels, with great image quality. Their size and convenience often outweighs their ergonomic limitations.
Well said. Even the ergonomics is not as terrible as many describe it. Many equate that to direct manual controls - partially a thing of the past.

Ergonomics is not subjective only it is measured on specific user scenarios, where each is weighted based on intended use/frequency. If the new AF AI helps me with 90% of the cases (thus no manual intervention was required to begin with) and in 10% of the cases I had one more click than I would have on another brand - what does that give? I am sure the number of button customization will score very well too as it gives one the ability to tie ergonomics to intended use. How many other brands support this to such extend? There is stuff that Sony could carry over from the A7 series but sadly they are protecting their FF line.
This a very well grounded and sober way of looking at Sony's ergonomics in this line. I hear reviewers bash Sony APS-C ergonomics,
...and touch screen.

I can live without one that is fully functional/usable, but both is more difficult. In other words ergonomics means less if you have a touch shutter and complete touchscreen functionality like others do. And a touchscreen matters less if you have complete and solid ergonomics. But most will say for both, the A6x00 is average to below average which overall puts them at the bottom.

The A6500/A6600 IBIS was the one saving grace for me. But others have it now.
 
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