Is Sony play its own game with us ?!

I have worked for many years in a production environment. I believe Sony from the first showing of the F828 has been saying 'officially' on a Sony website (which I didn't take time to look up) that the date will be mid-November. I believe I also saw that that is a prediction for the Japan market and that the US market will be mid-December or early January. The product has already been announced. They do not need to make another announcement. They do need to get production models out to the reviewers. That could be happening right now. A reviewer could have a camera and have done a review but Sony might want the review only posted after November 1st. Who knows?? Its all speculation. But there is an official announcement that says mid-November. Is Sony having a problem with making the camera work? They could be. Are they re-engineering some of it to be able to sell it at a lower price and still make a profit? They could be. Do they have a last minute feature that they have added that will 'blow away' the competition? Maybe. One thing for ceratin is when it is released it will generate as much if not more interest than the Digital Rebel. Yes I bought a Digital Rebel and am enjoying using it. And yes I plan to get a F828 (I have to spend the money I have made with the Digital Rebel somewhere). Each camera has its strengths and weaknesses. Sorry this got so long but since we are all speculating, I thought I'd spend a little time wasting time joining in. Just wait till Sony's ready, then we will all know what the F828 is all about. Will it be worth the wait? That's a personal decision. Some have decided yes, and some have decided no. Neither is a wrong choice.

Ogre

ernet said:

Hi,
According different Sony's sources there are many dates of 828
delivery to the market.
As sb.mentioned here Sony should releaze an official announcement
of 828 availability on the market a.s.a.p.. If Sony does NOT do
it( knowing about VERY late 828 delay of delivery ) I could
suspect Sony that in this way Sony do its best to keep all its
potentially customers in uncertainty. What for ? To keep away
Sony's potentially customers of other DCs companies as long as 828
reach the shops.

If it so IT IS UNFAIR SONY !

Moreover... if Sony official announcement of 828 availability is
January 2004
I think many ( say: some ) of us buy other ( than Sony ) DCs. You
know that the choice is very huge. So the competitors.

So, if 828s are at shops in December 2003 it means I was wrong.

Again;

--
Ernet/ Tenre at work

Click to expand...

--
Ogre - Canon Digital Rebel and Sony DSC-F707

lightp8nter said:

Leaving the DSLR/F828 debate aside, I don't believe Sony is playing
games. I am a consultant and have worked with many Fortune 100
companys (not Sony - yet) and I can tell you that not a one of them
"play" with customer's expectations. They try, with varying
degrees of success to understand and satisfy those expectations.
No one is in the business of "playing" with customers while losing
those customers to competitors. If Sony is has not released, then
it is not time. My comments are not based upon "trusting" Sony -
simple business analysis.

Click to expand...

Your obviously new to the digicam market. For instance, what about all the hyped marketing claims and delays concerning the Olympus E1?

lightp8nter said:

Regarding sales volume: My local camera store is also sold out of
300Ds. What does that mean? Camera stores (not Ritz) have a
client base and represent a certain kind of distribution channel to
manufactuers. Sony has a different client base and different
distribution channels like Best Buy (and no, I don't kinow if the
300D is carried by Best Buy). This does not mean that serious
photographers don't shop at Best Buy and that P&S types don't visit
camera stores. It just means, in general, that products tend to
group around certain types of customers and channels. So in the
debate of who outsells whom, I find it very easy to anticipate
record sales for the 828.

Click to expand...

Like I said, you are obviously new to the digicam market... The 300D is being sold at Best Buy, CompUSA, Fry's, Good Guys - and they are all having a hard time keeping the camera in stock!

lightp8nter said:

All of that said, I think think that the F828 is going to be a
remarkable camera for all the reasons listed by Phil and in this
forum, but more importantly, because it could remap the customer
landscape.

Click to expand...

The "more importantly" part has already been done by the 300D.

lightp8nter said:

I would love to know Sony's strategy. The 828 really
is not a P&S and is not a DSLR. It is something in between and it
may just capture the best of both worlds from a customer standpoint.

Click to expand...

If it doesn't make it out in quantity before Christmas - it ain't gonna happen no matter how good it performs. If Sony knows the camera will be available in quantity before Christmas LET US KNOW. Some of Sony is quoting delivery dates as late as FEB, 2004! Many users on these forums are planning, buying, or have already bought there new Christmas present. Sony's "strategy" was never to miss the Christmas season sales, but maybe it does include some waddling on the release date.

lightp8nter said:

Regardiing Sony's strategy: Can you imagine (given decent noise
specs) another version of the 828 based upon 20- 85 lens? We could
end up buying leses with cameras attached. The possibilities are
endless.

What a great time for our hobby/profession.

Click to expand...

First things first - Sony still needs to prove the resolution and noise performance of their 8MP RGBE sensor. Except for their studio yarn shot, the snapshots that have been posted all show some major issues. 8MP and RGBE are just marketing hype terms unless they deliver...

Paul

Minolta just dropped the price of A1 by $200,bringing its price down to $999 just to compete against the 300DR. As for F828,B&H just listed the camera price on their ads in photography magazine for $999. I don't think they have any stock,yet,but I'm not sure. They are as you know,a well-established company and when a new cam came out,they usually list a retail price,not a discounted price.

So,I guess that the retail price for the F828 will be $999,whether you buy it from B&H or BestBuy.

And that makes sense. Now that the A1 and the F828 can compete against the 300DR in terms of price war.

The problem is that the 300DR has been in the US market already and has been attracting new/existing customers like a huge magnet,but the A1 and the F828 haven't showed up in the US market,yet.

Whatever the reason is,this is a huge marketing mistake.

Canon seems to know how to handle the market:

"Strike it first and hard with a sharp edge."

It's as if Canon was grabbing the neck of Sony by one hand and the neck of Minolta by other hand.

Someone at Canon must've got a killer instinct from "Kill Bill".

Hide

Sony is in for the long haul. By the end of the year I think the numbers of sales will be greater for the F828 then the 300D. I am not talking about Christmas sales. If one wants a dSLR, then one has a low cost option with the 300D, but like a lot of us, a dSLR is not an option, it is a hassle.

PDM said:

Paul

PDM said:

Gene Miller wrote:
Pan Can wrote:
The camera will not sell for $1200. It will be less then $1000. In
either case, Sony will out sell the REBEL.

PDM said:

At this moment you can have the..."REBEL"..less than 1000$

Click to expand...

Most of us here do not want the REBEL or any dSLR. That is a fact
of life that some dSLR users just don't understand.

PDM said:

that's a problem for Sony........not for us

Click to expand...

The only problem is for dSLR users who think that is the only way
you can take great pictures. My advice, is to think again.

PDM said:

--
Pan Can

Click to expand...

--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

If you haven't talked to Sony yourself, then you are listening to second hand information. That's not Sony.

PDM said:

PDM said:

Greg wrote:
If you have hung around these forums long you should know there are
lots of rumors when a new camera is to be released.

The cameras makers have two choices:
1) not say anything and just have it appear on the shelves
2) do what Sony did but still not have a hard delivery date.

Click to expand...

That's not true. I agree with 1) and 2), but you left out 3)
3) announce a camera and give a delivery date

Also, what Sony is doing is not acceptable. Just because someone
else has done it before doesn't make it right. Worse I can't recall
ANY camera manufacturer throwing out so many wildly different
dates. If Sony don't want to give out a delivery date that's fine.
Giving out 10 different ones is irresponsible and makes Sony look
bad IMO. It obviously IS a marketing ploy. Personally, I don't like
companies that try to manipulate potential buyers.

Paul

Click to expand...

--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

Techonweb has just lowered their price from $942 to $909, so maybe Sony made some form of announcement to the retailers which lowered the MSRP. If B&H is listing it for $999 then that would tend to be the high-end of the price range (as their prices, especially for new cameras usually are).

Paul

Hide Takahashi said:

Minolta just dropped the price of A1 by $200,bringing its price
down to $999 just to compete against the 300DR. As for F828,B&H
just listed the camera price on their ads in photography magazine
for $999. I don't think they have any stock,yet,but I'm not sure.
They are as you know,a well-established company and when a new cam
came out,they usually list a retail price,not a discounted price.

So,I guess that the retail price for the F828 will be $999,whether
you buy it from B&H or BestBuy.

And that makes sense. Now that the A1 and the F828 can compete
against the 300DR in terms of price war.

The problem is that the 300DR has been in the US market already and
has been attracting new/existing customers like a huge magnet,but
the A1 and the F828 haven't showed up in the US market,yet.

Whatever the reason is,this is a huge marketing mistake.

Canon seems to know how to handle the market:

"Strike it first and hard with a sharp edge."

It's as if Canon was grabbing the neck of Sony by one hand and the
neck of Minolta by other hand.

Someone at Canon must've got a killer instinct from "Kill Bill".

Hide

Click to expand...

None of use can talk to them directly at the highest level. Instead we rely on his websites, email responses, and conversations from their marketing people. That's where all the mumbo jumbo on delivery dates is coming from.

Paul

Gene Miller said:

PDM said:

Gene Miller77510 said:

Greg wrote:
If you have hung around these forums long you should know there are
lots of rumors when a new camera is to be released.

The cameras makers have two choices:
1) not say anything and just have it appear on the shelves
2) do what Sony did but still not have a hard delivery date.

Click to expand...

That's not true. I agree with 1) and 2), but you left out 3)
3) announce a camera and give a delivery date

Also, what Sony is doing is not acceptable. Just because someone
else has done it before doesn't make it right. Worse I can't recall
ANY camera manufacturer throwing out so many wildly different
dates. If Sony don't want to give out a delivery date that's fine.
Giving out 10 different ones is irresponsible and makes Sony look
bad IMO. It obviously IS a marketing ploy. Personally, I don't like
companies that try to manipulate potential buyers.

Paul

Click to expand...

--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

Click to expand...

I think you miss the point. The nature of this thread asks the question "Is Sony play its own game with us?!" That implies motive and I think that is just silly. My comments on distribution were merely to point out that Sony has a serious distribution network - especially world wide and that no one should bet on which which camera is "better" by sales figures. For example, I am pretty shure that P&S outsells Hassleblad. My post is not a "which camera is better" post. I believe the 300d is also an important camera from an industry and selling point. When I speak of Strategy I am referring to where Sony is trying to take its product, and future design around the 828 and its successors. Sony's abiltiy or choice to release or not release in time for Christmas, is a tacticle choice be it good or bad - not a strategic choice. It seems important to you that the 300D "wins". I wonder why?

Regarding the E1, again, you seem to be implying motive. I am not defending any manufacturers choices, only trying to say that consumers often don't understand all that is necessary to bring a product to market succussfully, especially a product as complex as the photgraphic tools we all enjoy. Every company wanst to help create a demand for its products before releasing significant offerings as early as possible. The fact that they can't control all the R&D, Supply side, distribution channels, and of course the competition, does not suprise me at all. If you want to punish Sony or Olympus (or praise) Cannon on the synchronization of marketing and final delivery that is your choice. I prefer to evaluate the products and the company base upon quality and support of the final delierable.

So after way too much typing: Sony is not playing with us.

PDM said:

lightp8nter said:

Leaving the DSLR/F828 debate aside, I don't believe Sony is playing
games. I am a consultant and have worked with many Fortune 100
companys (not Sony - yet) and I can tell you that not a one of them
"play" with customer's expectations. They try, with varying
degrees of success to understand and satisfy those expectations.
No one is in the business of "playing" with customers while losing
those customers to competitors. If Sony is has not released, then
it is not time. My comments are not based upon "trusting" Sony -
simple business analysis.

Click to expand...

Your obviously new to the digicam market. For instance, what about
all the hyped marketing claims and delays concerning the Olympus E1?

PDM said:

Regarding sales volume: My local camera store is also sold out of
300Ds. What does that mean? Camera stores (not Ritz) have a
client base and represent a certain kind of distribution channel to
manufactuers. Sony has a different client base and different
distribution channels like Best Buy (and no, I don't kinow if the
300D is carried by Best Buy). This does not mean that serious
photographers don't shop at Best Buy and that P&S types don't visit
camera stores. It just means, in general, that products tend to
group around certain types of customers and channels. So in the
debate of who outsells whom, I find it very easy to anticipate
record sales for the 828.

Click to expand...

Like I said, you are obviously new to the digicam market... The
300D is being sold at Best Buy, CompUSA, Fry's, Good Guys - and
they are all having a hard time keeping the camera in stock!

PDM said:

All of that said, I think think that the F828 is going to be a
remarkable camera for all the reasons listed by Phil and in this
forum, but more importantly, because it could remap the customer
landscape.

Click to expand...

The "more importantly" part has already been done by the 300D.

PDM said:

I would love to know Sony's strategy. The 828 really
is not a P&S and is not a DSLR. It is something in between and it
may just capture the best of both worlds from a customer standpoint.

Click to expand...

If it doesn't make it out in quantity before Christmas - it ain't
gonna happen no matter how good it performs. If Sony knows the
camera will be available in quantity before Christmas LET US
KNOW. Some of Sony is quoting delivery dates as late as FEB, 2004!
Many users on these forums are planning, buying, or have already
bought there new Christmas present. Sony's "strategy" was never to
miss the Christmas season sales, but maybe it does include some
waddling on the release date.

PDM said:

Regardiing Sony's strategy: Can you imagine (given decent noise
specs) another version of the 828 based upon 20- 85 lens? We could
end up buying leses with cameras attached. The possibilities are
endless.

What a great time for our hobby/profession.

Click to expand...

First things first - Sony still needs to prove the resolution and
noise performance of their 8MP RGBE sensor. Except for their studio
yarn shot, the snapshots that have been posted all show some major
issues. 8MP and RGBE are just marketing hype terms unless they
deliver...

Paul

Click to expand...

PDM said:

PDM said:

Greg wrote:
If you have hung around these forums long you should know there are
lots of rumors when a new camera is to be released.

The cameras makers have two choices:
1) not say anything and just have it appear on the shelves
2) do what Sony did but still not have a hard delivery date.

Click to expand...

That's not true. I agree with 1) and 2), but you left out 3)
3) announce a camera and give a delivery date

Also, what Sony is doing is not acceptable. Just because someone
else has done it before doesn't make it right. Worse I can't recall
ANY camera manufacturer throwing out so many wildly different
dates. If Sony don't want to give out a delivery date that's fine.
Giving out 10 different ones is irresponsible and makes Sony look
bad IMO. It obviously IS a marketing ploy. Personally, I don't like
companies that try to manipulate potential buyers.

Paul

Click to expand...

--

It is NOT Sony who has thrown out all these different dates, it is the STF members who have talked to "their" friends or dealers.

You are just going to have to wait or buy something else.

Greg Gebhardt in
Jacksonville, Florida

PDM said:

lightp8nter said:

Leaving the DSLR/F828 debate aside, I don't believe Sony is playing
games. I am a consultant and have worked with many Fortune 100
companys (not Sony - yet) and I can tell you that not a one of them
"play" with customer's expectations. They try, with varying
degrees of success to understand and satisfy those expectations.
No one is in the business of "playing" with customers while losing
those customers to competitors. If Sony is has not released, then
it is not time. My comments are not based upon "trusting" Sony -
simple business analysis.

Click to expand...

Your obviously new to the digicam market. For instance, what about
all the hyped marketing claims and delays concerning the Olympus E1?

Click to expand...

It is obviously to me that you are new to the digicam market because you don't even understand the question you are asking. Your bias is overwhelming.

Olympus with their partners have been working hard with thousands of professional photographers to get this new system right. I hope for all of us who love photography that they do.

PDM said:

PDM said:

Regarding sales volume: My local camera store is also sold out of
300Ds. What does that mean? Camera stores (not Ritz) have a
client base and represent a certain kind of distribution channel to
manufactuers. Sony has a different client base and different
distribution channels like Best Buy (and no, I don't kinow if the
300D is carried by Best Buy). This does not mean that serious
photographers don't shop at Best Buy and that P&S types don't visit
camera stores. It just means, in general, that products tend to
group around certain types of customers and channels. So in the
debate of who outsells whom, I find it very easy to anticipate
record sales for the 828.

Click to expand...

Like I said, you are obviously new to the digicam market... The
300D is being sold at Best Buy, CompUSA, Fry's, Good Guys - and
they are all having a hard time keeping the camera in stock!

Click to expand...

So that has nothing to do with someone being new to the digicam market. The number of 300D supplied to the stores are very limited causing out of stocks. Canon will increase their manufacturing to meet the demand, but that takes a little time. Again, without direct knowledge of numbers you are showing your lack of knowledge of the market place.

PDM said:

PDM said:

All of that said, I think think that the F828 is going to be a
remarkable camera for all the reasons listed by Phil and in this
forum, but more importantly, because it could remap the customer
landscape.

Click to expand...

The "more importantly" part has already been done by the 300D.

Click to expand...

You statement is bias, silly, and shows your lack of knowledge or understanding of the photo market.

PDM said:

PDM said:

I would love to know Sony's strategy. The 828 really
is not a P&S and is not a DSLR. It is something in between and it
may just capture the best of both worlds from a customer standpoint.

Click to expand...

If it doesn't make it out in quantity before Christmas - it ain't
gonna happen no matter how good it performs. If Sony knows the
camera will be available in quantity before Christmas LET US
KNOW. Some of Sony is quoting delivery dates as late as FEB, 2004!
Many users on these forums are planning, buying, or have already
bought there new Christmas present. Sony's "strategy" was never to
miss the Christmas season sales, but maybe it does include some
waddling on the release date.

Click to expand...

Sony is not quoting any delivery firm delivery dates. That is hogwash. The success of the F828 is not dependent on the holiday season. That shows your lack of understanding about this market. Cameras are released when they are ready.

PDM said:

PDM said:

Regardiing Sony's strategy: Can you imagine (given decent noise
specs) another version of the 828 based upon 20- 85 lens? We could
end up buying leses with cameras attached. The possibilities are
endless.

What a great time for our hobby/profession.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

PDM said:

First things first - Sony still needs to prove the resolution and
noise performance of their 8MP RGBE sensor. Except for their studio
yarn shot, the snapshots that have been posted all show some major
issues. 8MP and RGBE are just marketing hype terms unless they
deliver...

Paul

Click to expand...

I think with your bias, nothing could be proved to you about any new innovated digicam technology, both from Sony or Olympus. You live in a shell and that's where you'll stay.

--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

From my years of working as an art director, what you have posted is right on the mark. I wish I could educate some of these bias people, but I know that is impossible. Thank you for your contribution to this thread.

lightp8nter said:

Regarding the E1, again, you seem to be implying motive. I am not
defending any manufacturers choices, only trying to say that
consumers often don't understand all that is necessary to bring a
product to market succussfully, especially a product as complex as
the photgraphic tools we all enjoy. Every company wanst to help
create a demand for its products before releasing significant
offerings as early as possible. The fact that they can't control
all the R&D, Supply side, distribution channels, and of course the
competition, does not suprise me at all. If you want to punish
Sony or Olympus (or praise) Cannon on the synchronization of
marketing and final delivery that is your choice. I prefer to
evaluate the products and the company base upon quality and support
of the final delierable.

So after way too much typing: Sony is not playing with us.

PDM said:

lightp8nter said:

Leaving the DSLR/F828 debate aside, I don't believe Sony is playing
games. I am a consultant and have worked with many Fortune 100
companys (not Sony - yet) and I can tell you that not a one of them
"play" with customer's expectations. They try, with varying
degrees of success to understand and satisfy those expectations.
No one is in the business of "playing" with customers while losing
those customers to competitors. If Sony is has not released, then
it is not time. My comments are not based upon "trusting" Sony -
simple business analysis.

Click to expand...

Your obviously new to the digicam market. For instance, what about
all the hyped marketing claims and delays concerning the Olympus E1?

lightp8nter said:

Regarding sales volume: My local camera store is also sold out of
300Ds. What does that mean? Camera stores (not Ritz) have a
client base and represent a certain kind of distribution channel to
manufactuers. Sony has a different client base and different
distribution channels like Best Buy (and no, I don't kinow if the
300D is carried by Best Buy). This does not mean that serious
photographers don't shop at Best Buy and that P&S types don't visit
camera stores. It just means, in general, that products tend to
group around certain types of customers and channels. So in the
debate of who outsells whom, I find it very easy to anticipate
record sales for the 828.

Click to expand...

Like I said, you are obviously new to the digicam market... The
300D is being sold at Best Buy, CompUSA, Fry's, Good Guys - and
they are all having a hard time keeping the camera in stock!

lightp8nter said:

All of that said, I think think that the F828 is going to be a
remarkable camera for all the reasons listed by Phil and in this
forum, but more importantly, because it could remap the customer
landscape.

Click to expand...

The "more importantly" part has already been done by the 300D.

lightp8nter said:

I would love to know Sony's strategy. The 828 really
is not a P&S and is not a DSLR. It is something in between and it
may just capture the best of both worlds from a customer standpoint.

Click to expand...

If it doesn't make it out in quantity before Christmas - it ain't
gonna happen no matter how good it performs. If Sony knows the
camera will be available in quantity before Christmas LET US
KNOW. Some of Sony is quoting delivery dates as late as FEB, 2004!
Many users on these forums are planning, buying, or have already
bought there new Christmas present. Sony's "strategy" was never to
miss the Christmas season sales, but maybe it does include some
waddling on the release date.

lightp8nter said:

Regardiing Sony's strategy: Can you imagine (given decent noise
specs) another version of the 828 based upon 20- 85 lens? We could
end up buying leses with cameras attached. The possibilities are
endless.

What a great time for our hobby/profession.

Click to expand...

First things first - Sony still needs to prove the resolution and
noise performance of their 8MP RGBE sensor. Except for their studio
yarn shot, the snapshots that have been posted all show some major
issues. 8MP and RGBE are just marketing hype terms unless they
deliver...

Paul

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

PDM said:

Paul

Gene Miller said:

PDM said:

PDM said:

Greg wrote:
If you have hung around these forums long you should know there are
lots of rumors when a new camera is to be released.

The cameras makers have two choices:
1) not say anything and just have it appear on the shelves
2) do what Sony did but still not have a hard delivery date.

Click to expand...

That's not true. I agree with 1) and 2), but you left out 3)
3) announce a camera and give a delivery date

Also, what Sony is doing is not acceptable. Just because someone
else has done it before doesn't make it right. Worse I can't recall
ANY camera manufacturer throwing out so many wildly different
dates. If Sony don't want to give out a delivery date that's fine.
Giving out 10 different ones is irresponsible and makes Sony look
bad IMO. It obviously IS a marketing ploy. Personally, I don't like
companies that try to manipulate potential buyers.

Paul

Click to expand...

--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

Greg, I fully agree with you. Thanks for contributing non bias comments. Take care.

Greg Gebhardt said:

PDM said:

Greg Gebhardt said:

Greg wrote:
If you have hung around these forums long you should know there are
lots of rumors when a new camera is to be released.

The cameras makers have two choices:
1) not say anything and just have it appear on the shelves
2) do what Sony did but still not have a hard delivery date.

Click to expand...

That's not true. I agree with 1) and 2), but you left out 3)
3) announce a camera and give a delivery date

Also, what Sony is doing is not acceptable. Just because someone
else has done it before doesn't make it right. Worse I can't recall
ANY camera manufacturer throwing out so many wildly different
dates. If Sony don't want to give out a delivery date that's fine.
Giving out 10 different ones is irresponsible and makes Sony look
bad IMO. It obviously IS a marketing ploy. Personally, I don't like
companies that try to manipulate potential buyers.

Paul

Click to expand...

--
It is NOT Sony who has thrown out all these different dates, it is
the STF members who have talked to "their" friends or dealers.

You are just going to have to wait or buy something else.

Greg Gebhardt in
Jacksonville, Florida

Click to expand...

--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

No - I AGREE with YOU completely. Thanks. I think we live in a world where common sense is punished.

Gene Miller said:

lightp8nter said:

Regarding the E1, again, you seem to be implying motive. I am not
defending any manufacturers choices, only trying to say that
consumers often don't understand all that is necessary to bring a
product to market succussfully, especially a product as complex as
the photgraphic tools we all enjoy. Every company wanst to help
create a demand for its products before releasing significant
offerings as early as possible. The fact that they can't control
all the R&D, Supply side, distribution channels, and of course the
competition, does not suprise me at all. If you want to punish
Sony or Olympus (or praise) Cannon on the synchronization of
marketing and final delivery that is your choice. I prefer to
evaluate the products and the company base upon quality and support
of the final delierable.

So after way too much typing: Sony is not playing with us.

PDM said:

lightp8nter said:

Leaving the DSLR/F828 debate aside, I don't believe Sony is playing
games. I am a consultant and have worked with many Fortune 100
companys (not Sony - yet) and I can tell you that not a one of them
"play" with customer's expectations. They try, with varying
degrees of success to understand and satisfy those expectations.
No one is in the business of "playing" with customers while losing
those customers to competitors. If Sony is has not released, then
it is not time. My comments are not based upon "trusting" Sony -
simple business analysis.

Click to expand...

Your obviously new to the digicam market. For instance, what about
all the hyped marketing claims and delays concerning the Olympus E1?

Gene Miller77510 said:

Regarding sales volume: My local camera store is also sold out of
300Ds. What does that mean? Camera stores (not Ritz) have a
client base and represent a certain kind of distribution channel to
manufactuers. Sony has a different client base and different
distribution channels like Best Buy (and no, I don't kinow if the
300D is carried by Best Buy). This does not mean that serious
photographers don't shop at Best Buy and that P&S types don't visit
camera stores. It just means, in general, that products tend to
group around certain types of customers and channels. So in the
debate of who outsells whom, I find it very easy to anticipate
record sales for the 828.

Click to expand...

Like I said, you are obviously new to the digicam market... The
300D is being sold at Best Buy, CompUSA, Fry's, Good Guys - and
they are all having a hard time keeping the camera in stock!

Gene Miller77510 said:

All of that said, I think think that the F828 is going to be a
remarkable camera for all the reasons listed by Phil and in this
forum, but more importantly, because it could remap the customer
landscape.

Click to expand...

The "more importantly" part has already been done by the 300D.

Gene Miller77510 said:

I would love to know Sony's strategy. The 828 really
is not a P&S and is not a DSLR. It is something in between and it
may just capture the best of both worlds from a customer standpoint.

Click to expand...

If it doesn't make it out in quantity before Christmas - it ain't
gonna happen no matter how good it performs. If Sony knows the
camera will be available in quantity before Christmas LET US
KNOW. Some of Sony is quoting delivery dates as late as FEB, 2004!
Many users on these forums are planning, buying, or have already
bought there new Christmas present. Sony's "strategy" was never to
miss the Christmas season sales, but maybe it does include some
waddling on the release date.

Gene Miller77510 said:

Regardiing Sony's strategy: Can you imagine (given decent noise
specs) another version of the 828 based upon 20- 85 lens? We could
end up buying leses with cameras attached. The possibilities are
endless.

What a great time for our hobby/profession.

Click to expand...

First things first - Sony still needs to prove the resolution and
noise performance of their 8MP RGBE sensor. Except for their studio
yarn shot, the snapshots that have been posted all show some major
issues. 8MP and RGBE are just marketing hype terms unless they
deliver...

Paul

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

Click to expand...

Ogre,

I enjoyed your none bias views. Coming from a 300D user like you, your post should make everyone proud except for the few who have blind biases. Your view adds to this thread and I for one appreciate it. Take care.

BTW, I'm glad you're making money with your new 300D. For some, that's what it is all about, and for others it is just another toy. Just have fun with your REBEL and maybe one day you'll add the F828 and have fun with both. Take care.

Ogre said:

Ogre

ernet said:

Hi,
According different Sony's sources there are many dates of 828
delivery to the market.
As sb.mentioned here Sony should releaze an official announcement
of 828 availability on the market a.s.a.p.. If Sony does NOT do
it( knowing about VERY late 828 delay of delivery ) I could
suspect Sony that in this way Sony do its best to keep all its
potentially customers in uncertainty. What for ? To keep away
Sony's potentially customers of other DCs companies as long as 828
reach the shops.

If it so IT IS UNFAIR SONY !

Moreover... if Sony official announcement of 828 availability is
January 2004
I think many ( say: some ) of us buy other ( than Sony ) DCs. You
know that the choice is very huge. So the competitors.

So, if 828s are at shops in December 2003 it means I was wrong.

Again;

--
Ernet/ Tenre at work

Click to expand...

--
Ogre - Canon Digital Rebel and Sony DSC-F707

Click to expand...

--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

lightp8nter said:

I think you miss the point. The nature of this thread asks the
question "Is Sony play its own game with us?!" That implies
motive and I think that is just silly. My comments on distribution
were merely to point out that Sony has a serious distribution
network - especially world wide and that no one should bet on which
which camera is "better" by sales figures. For example, I am
pretty shure that P&S outsells Hassleblad. My post is not a "which
camera is better" post. I believe the 300d is also an important
camera from an industry and selling point. When I speak of
Strategy I am referring to where Sony is trying to take its
product, and future design around the 828 and its successors.
Sony's abiltiy or choice to release or not release in time for
Christmas, is a tacticle choice be it good or bad - not a strategic
choice. It seems important to you that the 300D "wins". I wonder
why?

Click to expand...

Where did you get that from? I've handled the 300D three times now, including once when I could have bought it with the kit lens for $899 - that was tempting. Guess what? I didn't buy it then and still don't own it. It's not for everyone, including me, but why do you seem to ignore the market importance of the 300D?

lightp8nter said:

Regarding the E1, again, you seem to be implying motive. I am not
defending any manufacturers choices, only trying to say that
consumers often don't understand all that is necessary to bring a
product to market succussfully, especially a product as complex as
the photgraphic tools we all enjoy. Every company wanst to help
create a demand for its products before releasing significant
offerings as early as possible.

Click to expand...

Good products create a demand for themselves. Companies use marketing as a means create or expand demand, and that can include a motive. In Oly's case their marketing hype for the E1 backfired on them. This isn't my opinion, but the general consensus. Just take a look at the very quiet OLY SLR forum if you need some evidence. And no, I'm not bashing Oly as a company. My current digicam is an Oly E10 - which is even by todays standard a great camera, just slow in some operations.

lightp8nter said:

The fact that they can't control
all the R&D, Supply side, distribution channels, and of course the
competition, does not suprise me at all.

Click to expand...

Well, many people have summed up the E1 as "too little too late". Timing is important for almost all users. They really don't care to waste their time getting into the details. If it isn't their when they are buying or doesn't perform up to their expectations (usually based on the competition) it doesn't get bought.

lightp8nter said:

If you want to punish
Sony or Olympus (or praise) Cannon on the synchronization of
marketing and final delivery that is your choice.

Click to expand...

LOL. Punish? I am giving my opinion after owning digicams for about 4 years now. FYI, I have a F828 on pre-order at techonweb, and as I already stated, I own an Oly E10 that I have been very happy with.

lightp8nter said:

I prefer to
evaluate the products and the company base upon quality and support
of the final delierable.

Click to expand...

I assume you mean "deliverable"? That's the whole point of this discussion. Sony has not delivered anything at this point and is wiggling like a worm when it comes to an expected delivery date - especially in quantity. They didn't seem to have this problem with any of their other digicam releases, so what's up with the F828? Many of us want to use are new digicams over the Thankgiving and Christmas holidays. But, with Sony Canada telling it's potential customers Jan or Feb 2004, how can us USA customers not feel some apprehension when Sony USA is saying mid Nov 2003? For any given camera/manufacturer the USA/Canada releases are usually pretty consistent.

lightp8nter said:

So after way too much typing: Sony is not playing with us.

Click to expand...

I doesn't sound like you're in the market to buy right now anyway, so that easy for you to say. Some of us who are in the market to buy are obviously feeling differently.

Paul

If I can get 828 for $999 in bestbuy, so I can expect to get 828
for around $800 in respectable online stores. That sounds great.

Hide Takahashi said:

Minolta just dropped the price of A1 by $200,bringing its price
down to $999 just to compete against the 300DR. As for F828,B&H
just listed the camera price on their ads in photography magazine
for $999. I don't think they have any stock,yet,but I'm not sure.
They are as you know,a well-established company and when a new cam
came out,they usually list a retail price,not a discounted price.

So,I guess that the retail price for the F828 will be $999,whether
you buy it from B&H or BestBuy.

And that makes sense. Now that the A1 and the F828 can compete
against the 300DR in terms of price war.

The problem is that the 300DR has been in the US market already and
has been attracting new/existing customers like a huge magnet,but
the A1 and the F828 haven't showed up in the US market,yet.

Whatever the reason is,this is a huge marketing mistake.

Canon seems to know how to handle the market:

"Strike it first and hard with a sharp edge."

It's as if Canon was grabbing the neck of Sony by one hand and the
neck of Minolta by other hand.

Someone at Canon must've got a killer instinct from "Kill Bill".

Hide

Click to expand...

Gene Miller said:

Sony is in for the long haul. By the end of the year I think the
numbers of sales will be greater for the F828 then the 300D. I am
not talking about Christmas sales.

Click to expand...

Let me see - Christmas falls on Dec. 25th, and New Years Eve is Dec.31. Thay won't have anything but Christmas sales to add to their YTD F828 sales, unless you think the 6 days after Christmas are going to make a big difference. Sony, at best, won't have the F828 in mass for purchase until sometime in mid/late November. In the mean time the 300D has been racking up sales for Sept,October,November...

Gene Miller77510 said:

If one wants a dSLR, then one
has a low cost option with the 300D, but like a lot of us, a dSLR
is not an option, it is a hassle.

Click to expand...

I'm with you, but there are many people who do want a DSLR. Many people who are just starting out in DIGITAL photography with other types of digicams (who will probably spend lots of $$$ before they decide what they really want/need) can't wait to make the move to an SLR. All of us who have been there and done that should know that.

Paul

Gene Miller77510 said:

PDM said:

Paul

Gene Miller77510 said:

Gene Miller wrote:
Pan Can wrote:
The camera will not sell for $1200. It will be less then $1000. In
either case, Sony will out sell the REBEL.

Gene Miller77510 said:

At this moment you can have the..."REBEL"..less than 1000$

Click to expand...

Most of us here do not want the REBEL or any dSLR. That is a fact
of life that some dSLR users just don't understand.

Gene Miller77510 said:

that's a problem for Sony........not for us

Click to expand...

The only problem is for dSLR users who think that is the only way
you can take great pictures. My advice, is to think again.

Gene Miller77510 said:

--
Pan Can

Click to expand...

--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

Click to expand...

I concede the following:

1. You are a better photographer than me
2. You haver handled more digicams than me
3. You have owned more digicams than me
4. You have taken more picutes than me

However, you have not read the subject line of this thread... ; )

N8

PDM said:

lightp8nter said:

I think you miss the point. The nature of this thread asks the
question "Is Sony play its own game with us?!" That implies
motive and I think that is just silly. My comments on distribution
were merely to point out that Sony has a serious distribution
network - especially world wide and that no one should bet on which
which camera is "better" by sales figures. For example, I am
pretty shure that P&S outsells Hassleblad. My post is not a "which
camera is better" post. I believe the 300d is also an important
camera from an industry and selling point. When I speak of
Strategy I am referring to where Sony is trying to take its
product, and future design around the 828 and its successors.
Sony's abiltiy or choice to release or not release in time for
Christmas, is a tacticle choice be it good or bad - not a strategic
choice. It seems important to you that the 300D "wins". I wonder
why?

Click to expand...

Where did you get that from? I've handled the 300D three times now,
including once when I could have bought it with the kit lens for
$899 - that was tempting. Guess what? I didn't buy it then and
still don't own it. It's not for everyone, including me, but why do
you seem to ignore the market importance of the 300D?

Click to expand...

PDM said:

PDM said:

Regarding the E1, again, you seem to be implying motive. I am not
defending any manufacturers choices, only trying to say that
consumers often don't understand all that is necessary to bring a
product to market succussfully, especially a product as complex as
the photgraphic tools we all enjoy. Every company wanst to help
create a demand for its products before releasing significant
offerings as early as possible.

Click to expand...

Good products create a demand for themselves. Companies use
marketing as a means create or expand demand, and that can include
a motive. In Oly's case their marketing hype for the E1 backfired
on them. This isn't my opinion, but the general consensus. Just
take a look at the very quiet OLY SLR forum if you need some
evidence. And no, I'm not bashing Oly as a company. My current
digicam is an Oly E10 - which is even by todays standard a great
camera, just slow in some operations.

PDM said:

The fact that they can't control
all the R&D, Supply side, distribution channels, and of course the
competition, does not suprise me at all.

Click to expand...

Well, many people have summed up the E1 as "too little too late".
Timing is important for almost all users. They really don't care
to waste their time getting into the details. If it isn't their
when they are buying or doesn't perform up to their expectations
(usually based on the competition) it doesn't get bought.

PDM said:

If you want to punish
Sony or Olympus (or praise) Cannon on the synchronization of
marketing and final delivery that is your choice.

Click to expand...

LOL. Punish? I am giving my opinion after owning digicams for about
4 years now. FYI, I have a F828 on pre-order at techonweb, and as I
already stated, I own an Oly E10 that I have been very happy
with.

PDM said:

I prefer to
evaluate the products and the company base upon quality and support
of the final delierable.

Click to expand...

I assume you mean "deliverable"? That's the whole point of this
discussion. Sony has not delivered anything at this point and is
wiggling like a worm when it comes to an expected delivery date -
especially in quantity. They didn't seem to have this problem with
any of their other digicam releases, so what's up with the F828?
Many of us want to use are new digicams over the Thankgiving and
Christmas holidays. But, with Sony Canada telling it's potential
customers Jan or Feb 2004, how can us USA customers not feel some
apprehension when Sony USA is saying mid Nov 2003? For any given
camera/manufacturer the USA/Canada releases are usually pretty
consistent.

PDM said:

So after way too much typing: Sony is not playing with us.

Click to expand...

I doesn't sound like you're in the market to buy right now anyway,
so that easy for you to say. Some of us who are in the market
to buy are obviously feeling differently.

Paul

Click to expand...

I doubt if you would find it that low anytime soon. The A1 is still around $899 at the respectable online retailers. That will likely be the lowest price on the F828 as well. techoweb currently has their (preorder) price lowered to $909.

Paul

Cheng Bao said:

If I can get 828 for $999 in bestbuy, so I can expect to get 828
for around $800 in respectable online stores. That sounds great.

Click to expand...