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Nikon is taking more time away from Zee development it seems

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Here is a review written by a competent photographer

Extracted from that article:

"so far there's not a Z-mount prime that doesn't blow the F-mount version out of the water (snip) you get what you pay for. US$800 is more a Batis-level price than a Sony non-G price if you're going to go off trying to do comparisons. But the performance of this Nikkor is also clearly at Zeiss' level, too (actually even better in several respects). As far as I'm concerned, Nikon can't release 18mm, 20mm, 24mm, 28mm, and 105mm f/1.8 S primes fast enough if they're going to perform like the first three (35mm, 50mm, 85mm). And if we're getting this good a lens at f/1.8, I can hardly wait to see what the f/1.2 series will bring"
 
...
jeffnles1 said:
I think mirrorless is a solution in search of a problem. I am intrigued with the D780 or whatever it will be called. A high ISO powerhouse DSLR with updated autofocus and sensor vs. the D750 intrigues me. Dual SD card slots. No adaptor to be compatible with hundreds of thousands of existing F mount lenses (let's hope it will work with "D" series lenses) and all in a body smaller and lighter than the D850 and D5/D6 would be a dream camera for a wildlife / nature photographer like me. If the specs on the rumor sites prove to be true, I'll be ordering one.

Jeff
Click to expand...
So if I understand the solutions you are looking for in the future D780

1) Updated AF - not exactly sure what you mean there

2) Updated sensor - not exactly sure what you mean here either - more resolution, more DR, better colour, lower ISO, higher ISO?

3) Dual SD Card

4) Smaller & Lighter body

I am not sure how EVIL cannot be the solution to the 4 things for you.

1) EVIL AF from Sony is already a match for the D750 AF system- sure Nikon isn't there yet but that's a Nikon issue not an EVIL issue and its an issue for AF tracking only, in terms of accuracy - its already a match if not better in almost every situation, in terms of coverage - its already better than DSLRs.

2) Sensors are currently the same for DSLR and EVIL bodies - no advantage to neither in whatever form you mean by update

3) EVIL bodies come with dual SD card slots too and are not exclusive to DSLRs

4) EVIL has provided smaller and lighter bodies than DSLRs from day 1.

Now if you are saying that Nikon's EVIL bodies aren't the best in class - I would agree with you but from your list of problems you want to resolve - EVIL can solve for you.

I guess it cannot solve your D-lens issue but if you were looking for an upgrade in the final IQ of your pictures - you are going to have to upgrade your optics as well. I cannot even remember when or what the last D-lens that Nikon released was.

Of course, if you are on your last camera and lenses - be happy and keep shooting with it as every new camera DSLR or EVIL released in the future will just be a solution looking a problem you don't have.
 
jeffnles1 said:
This will probably get me labeled as a heretic here. Get your pitch forks ready and prepare the burning stake. The witch must confess and be burned.

I think mirrorless is a solution in search of a problem. I am intrigued with the D780 or whatever it will be called. A high ISO powerhouse DSLR with updated autofocus and sensor vs. the D750 intrigues me. Dual SD card slots. No adaptor to be compatible with hundreds of thousands of existing F mount lenses (let's hope it will work with "D" series lenses) and all in a body smaller and lighter than the D850 and D5/D6 would be a dream camera for a wildlife / nature photographer like me. If the specs on the rumor sites prove to be true, I'll be ordering one.

Jeff
Click to expand...
If the D750 replacement cannot handle AF-D is like committing suicide for Nikon. Worse mistake ever.



having said that, ML works better for me and I do a LOT more things with it than with a DSLR. Yes DSLR still poses better AF but DSLR is old technology. Within a decade DSLR will be absolete.
 
Batdude said:
jeffnles1 said:
This will probably get me labeled as a heretic here. Get your pitch forks ready and prepare the burning stake. The witch must confess and be burned.

I think mirrorless is a solution in search of a problem. I am intrigued with the D780 or whatever it will be called. A high ISO powerhouse DSLR with updated autofocus and sensor vs. the D750 intrigues me. Dual SD card slots. No adaptor to be compatible with hundreds of thousands of existing F mount lenses (let's hope it will work with "D" series lenses) and all in a body smaller and lighter than the D850 and D5/D6 would be a dream camera for a wildlife / nature photographer like me. If the specs on the rumor sites prove to be true, I'll be ordering one.

Jeff
Click to expand...
If the D750 replacement cannot handle AF-D is like committing suicide for Nikon. Worse mistake ever.

having said that, ML works better for me and I do a LOT more things with it than with a DSLR. Yes DSLR still poses better AF but DSLR is old technology. Within a decade DSLR will be absolete.
Click to expand...
It's already obsolete, it'll be dead in 10 years. But, there are millions of used ones so no one will suffer who wants one.
 
LoneTree1 said:
Batdude said:
jeffnles1 said:
This will probably get me labeled as a heretic here. Get your pitch forks ready and prepare the burning stake. The witch must confess and be burned.

I think mirrorless is a solution in search of a problem. I am intrigued with the D780 or whatever it will be called. A high ISO powerhouse DSLR with updated autofocus and sensor vs. the D750 intrigues me. Dual SD card slots. No adaptor to be compatible with hundreds of thousands of existing F mount lenses (let's hope it will work with "D" series lenses) and all in a body smaller and lighter than the D850 and D5/D6 would be a dream camera for a wildlife / nature photographer like me. If the specs on the rumor sites prove to be true, I'll be ordering one.

Jeff
Click to expand...
If the D750 replacement cannot handle AF-D is like committing suicide for Nikon. Worse mistake ever.

having said that, ML works better for me and I do a LOT more things with it than with a DSLR. Yes DSLR still poses better AF but DSLR is old technology. Within a decade DSLR will be absolete.
Click to expand...
It's already obsolete, it'll be dead in 10 years. But, there are millions of used ones so no one will suffer who wants one.
Click to expand...
The bigger picture is that the traditional SLR and DSLR interfaces are obsolete. And since mirrorless ILCs have essentially adopted that interface, as is, that makes mirrorless ILCs also obsolete...a fact that's reflected in that segment losing customers, year-on-year. Neither SLR nor ML ILCs are growth industries. Without substantial revision of the interface and workflow, both will be dead in 10 years.

--
Bill Ferris Photography
Flagstaff, AZ
http://www.billferris.photoshelter.com
 
Last edited:
Bill Ferris said:
LoneTree1 said:
Batdude said:
jeffnles1 said:
This will probably get me labeled as a heretic here. Get your pitch forks ready and prepare the burning stake. The witch must confess and be burned.

I think mirrorless is a solution in search of a problem. I am intrigued with the D780 or whatever it will be called. A high ISO powerhouse DSLR with updated autofocus and sensor vs. the D750 intrigues me. Dual SD card slots. No adaptor to be compatible with hundreds of thousands of existing F mount lenses (let's hope it will work with "D" series lenses) and all in a body smaller and lighter than the D850 and D5/D6 would be a dream camera for a wildlife / nature photographer like me. If the specs on the rumor sites prove to be true, I'll be ordering one.

Jeff
Click to expand...
If the D750 replacement cannot handle AF-D is like committing suicide for Nikon. Worse mistake ever.

having said that, ML works better for me and I do a LOT more things with it than with a DSLR. Yes DSLR still poses better AF but DSLR is old technology. Within a decade DSLR will be absolete.
Click to expand...
It's already obsolete, it'll be dead in 10 years. But, there are millions of used ones so no one will suffer who wants one.
Click to expand...
The bigger picture is that the traditional SLR and DSLR interfaces are obsolete. And since mirrorless ILCs have essentially adopted that interface, as is, that makes mirrorless ILCs also obsolete...a fact that's reflected in that segment losing customers, year-on-year. Neither SLR nor ML ILCs are growth industries. Without substantial revision of the interface and workflow, both will be dead in 10 years.
Click to expand...
We all may be dead in 10 years. I'm honestly not worried in the lest about what will come down the pike 10 years from now. A person can spend his/her (its) life waiting on the "next big thing" to come along. If I'm alive 10 years from now will I buy mirrorless / MILC technology? Maybe, maybe I'll buy whatever is the new tech then. Then again, I may be too old to care or I may not even see the year 2030. I need to enjoy today and purchase products that will allow me to enjoy taking photographs today and let tomorrow take care of itself.

Some people enjoy their mirrorless bodies - great, enjoy them. Have fun with them. Create photographs with them.

Some people enjoy DSLR's - great, enjoy them. Have fun with them. Create photographs with them.

After all, Greta Thunberg says we'll all be dead in 10 years anyway. ;-)
 
Bill Ferris said:
LoneTree1 said:
Batdude said:
jeffnles1 said:
This will probably get me labeled as a heretic here. Get your pitch forks ready and prepare the burning stake. The witch must confess and be burned.

I think mirrorless is a solution in search of a problem. I am intrigued with the D780 or whatever it will be called. A high ISO powerhouse DSLR with updated autofocus and sensor vs. the D750 intrigues me. Dual SD card slots. No adaptor to be compatible with hundreds of thousands of existing F mount lenses (let's hope it will work with "D" series lenses) and all in a body smaller and lighter than the D850 and D5/D6 would be a dream camera for a wildlife / nature photographer like me. If the specs on the rumor sites prove to be true, I'll be ordering one.

Jeff
Click to expand...
If the D750 replacement cannot handle AF-D is like committing suicide for Nikon. Worse mistake ever.

having said that, ML works better for me and I do a LOT more things with it than with a DSLR. Yes DSLR still poses better AF but DSLR is old technology. Within a decade DSLR will be absolete.
Click to expand...
It's already obsolete, it'll be dead in 10 years. But, there are millions of used ones so no one will suffer who wants one.
Click to expand...
The bigger picture is that the traditional SLR and DSLR interfaces are obsolete. And since mirrorless ILCs have essentially adopted that interface, as is, that makes mirrorless ILCs also obsolete...a fact that's reflected in that segment losing customers, year-on-year. Neither SLR nor ML ILCs are growth industries. Without substantial revision of the interface and workflow, both will be dead in 10 years.
Click to expand...
Very good observation Bill. I never thought of it that way. I have said that ML may be gone before DSLRs with likely a paradigm shift but I think you're on to the fundamental problem.

Good one.
 
I agree that ML is a solution looking for a problem. I still believe the main reason the manufacturers starting pushing all these MILCs is because they saw the camera market take a nosedive, and they thought, it MUST be because people want MILCs instead of DSLRs. This is wrong. Also, they want people to re-buy a ton of glass and bodies. My questions is: why? The Z bodies are NOT better than DSLRs. Regarding the lenses, I've seen way too many people drink the kool-aid. Maybe they are sharper in the corners. So what? I rarely care about that, and I doubt anyone will see the difference in final output.

Simply put, I'm not about to lose thousands by selling and trading in, only to have images that look the same.
 
Bill Ferris said:
LoneTree1 said:
Batdude said:
jeffnles1 said:
This will probably get me labeled as a heretic here. Get your pitch forks ready and prepare the burning stake. The witch must confess and be burned.

I think mirrorless is a solution in search of a problem. I am intrigued with the D780 or whatever it will be called. A high ISO powerhouse DSLR with updated autofocus and sensor vs. the D750 intrigues me. Dual SD card slots. No adaptor to be compatible with hundreds of thousands of existing F mount lenses (let's hope it will work with "D" series lenses) and all in a body smaller and lighter than the D850 and D5/D6 would be a dream camera for a wildlife / nature photographer like me. If the specs on the rumor sites prove to be true, I'll be ordering one.

Jeff
Click to expand...
If the D750 replacement cannot handle AF-D is like committing suicide for Nikon. Worse mistake ever.

having said that, ML works better for me and I do a LOT more things with it than with a DSLR. Yes DSLR still poses better AF but DSLR is old technology. Within a decade DSLR will be absolete.
Click to expand...
It's already obsolete, it'll be dead in 10 years. But, there are millions of used ones so no one will suffer who wants one.
Click to expand...
The bigger picture is that the traditional SLR and DSLR interfaces are obsolete. And since mirrorless ILCs have essentially adopted that interface, as is, that makes mirrorless ILCs also obsolete...a fact that's reflected in that segment losing customers, year-on-year. Neither SLR nor ML ILCs are growth industries. Without substantial revision of the interface and workflow, both will be dead in 10 years.
Click to expand...
Obsolete as in young people with smartphones can’t relate to it? That might be.
 
The mirrorless systems of today are not the future, the market is shrinking for all ILC systems. It is inevitable that there will be less R&D and fewer new products across the board. Now what the future of still photography really is, that I don't know, it might be some kind of stripped-down sensor/lens system controlled by some other device (tablet/computer/phone/cloud/... ) as envisioned by Thom (IIRC) and others, or maybe still cameras will vanish altogether and all stills will be taken from video. Let's dig up this thread on December 31st, 2044, when our grandchildren have made abundantly clear how lame we are for hanging on to our DSLRs and MILCs.
 
You have to seperate your preferences from the market in general; where different preferences co-exist
Mister Anders0n said:
I agree that ML is a solution looking for a problem. I still believe the main reason the manufacturers starting pushing all these MILCs is because they saw the camera market take a nosedive,
Click to expand...
That's just not how it happened. It isn't. The initial MILC drive came from makes that weren't succeeding in DSLRs.

Oly and Panasonic tried with 4/3 and found that a small sensor in bodies as big and expensive as larger format DSLRs didn't compete. So they launched m43 with an emphasis on lightness, compactness and (in Pany's case) video.

Sony tried DSLRs. Then they tried the SLT hybrid. Barely made a dent in the market. So they tried FF MILC. And people liked it. It wasn't a "push conspiracy". They kept trying until they found something people wanted to buy in FF MILC.
Mister Anders0n said:
and they thought, it MUST be because people want MILCs instead of DSLRs.
Click to expand...
You make it sound like all the manufacturers co-ordinated this. Sony launched FF MILC and found that some people wanted MILCs instead of DSLRs. Nobody "pushed" it on them.
Mister Anders0n said:
This is wrong.
Click to expand...
How is it wrong? That some people (an increasing share) wanted MILC instead of DSLRs. It's just true.
Mister Anders0n said:
Also, they want people to re-buy a ton of glass and bodies.
Click to expand...
Well you have to give Nikon and Canon credit for holding out 5 years and letting Sony become the biggest player in some FF ILC markets, breaking a 50 year dupoloy, until they finally launched competing FF MILC systems. They really tried delaying it as long as possible!
Mister Anders0n said:
My questions is: why? The Z bodies are NOT better than DSLRs. Regarding the lenses, I've seen way too many people drink the kool-aid. Maybe they are sharper in the corners. So what? I rarely care about that, and I doubt anyone will see the difference in final output.
Click to expand...
I guess in life you have to accept that other people have different preferences. The fact it doesn't convince you isn't a bizarre conundrum, it's just that other people like different things.
Mister Anders0n said:
Simply put, I'm not about to lose thousands by selling and trading in, only to have images that look the same.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Different preferences co-exist.
 
Last edited:
Mister Anders0n said:
I agree that ML is a solution looking for a problem.
Click to expand...
I think it would be more accurate to say that the mirror box is a solution to a problem that no longer exists,

It is actually an impediment to features that are possible only by moving it out of the way, or getting rid of it altogether
 
VBLondon said:
You have to seperate your preferences from the market in general; where different preferences co-exist
VBLondon said:
I agree that ML is a solution looking for a problem. I still believe the main reason the manufacturers starting pushing all these MILCs is because they saw the camera market take a nosedive,
Click to expand...
That's just not how it happened. It isn't. The initial MILC drive came from makes that weren't succeeding in DSLRs.

Oly and Panasonic tried with 4/3 and found that a small sensor in bodies as big and expensive as larger format DSLRs didn't compete. So they launched m43 with an emphasis on lightness, compactness and (in Pany's case) video.

Sony tried DSLRs. Then they tried the SLT hybrid. Barely made a dent in the market. So they tried FF MILC. And people liked it. It wasn't a "push conspiracy". They kept trying until they found something people wanted to buy in FF MILC.
VBLondon said:
and they thought, it MUST be because people want MILCs instead of DSLRs.
Click to expand...
You make it sound like all the manufacturers co-ordinated this. Sony launched FF MILC and found that some people wanted MILCs instead of DSLRs. Nobody "pushed" it on them.
VBLondon said:
This is wrong.
Click to expand...
How is it wrong? That some people (an increasing share) wanted MILC instead of DSLRs. It's just true.
VBLondon said:
Also, they want people to re-buy a ton of glass and bodies.
Click to expand...
Well you have to give Nikon and Canon credit for holding out 5 years and letting Sony become the biggest player in some FF ILC markets, breaking a 50 year dupoloy, until they finally launched competing FF MILC systems. They really tried delaying it as long as possible!
VBLondon said:
My questions is: why? The Z bodies are NOT better than DSLRs. Regarding the lenses, I've seen way too many people drink the kool-aid. Maybe they are sharper in the corners. So what? I rarely care about that, and I doubt anyone will see the difference in final output.
Click to expand...
I guess in life you have to accept that other people have different preferences. The fact it doesn't convince you isn't a bizarre conundrum, it's just that other people like different things.
VBLondon said:
Simply put, I'm not about to lose thousands by selling and trading in, only to have images that look the same.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Different preferences co-exist.
Click to expand...
TBH, I can't stand the people on here who feel the need to multi-quote and dissect someone else's post to death.

Camera manufacturers ARE trying to cram MILCs down our throats. Thankfully, it appears most people see through this charade and are not biting. The Zeeites make up a very, very small percent of the market, and they basically don't matter at all, except here on their little safe space called Nikon Z Mirrorless talk.

So tell me why I should sell at least $10K in glass and my $3300 D850 at a big loss for a MILC? I have a lot of disposable income, and even I don't want to do this. It's just silly. It appears many others don't want to, either. Now if my photos would look twice as good, or the ISO performance was vastly improved, maybe I'd think about it. All I see is a big scam where they want everyone to re-buy a bunch of glass we already have for no good reason.
 
Last edited:
commiebiker said:
Mister Anders0n said:
I agree that ML is a solution looking for a problem.
Click to expand...
I think it would be more accurate to say that the mirror box is a solution to a problem that no longer exists,

It is actually an impediment to features that are possible only by moving it out of the way, or getting rid of it altogether
Click to expand...
You're wrong. There are many things you can't do with an ML that you can do with a DSLR. You are trying to put ML ahead of DSLRs when DSLRs are still king. Take a breathe and chill.

They're both just two similar paths to an image. Bill had a good post regarding that. The features it opens up, and the cost it takes to get those features doesn't make it a value proposition for most.

If Nikon eventually crams ML down our throats so they can make more money, and diminishes DSLRs then not much we can do about that. Well, except use what we have which is exceptional to start with.
 
If Nikon does cram ML down our throats, and my D850 breaks or something, I think I'll be moving to Sony at that point....unless Nikon can somehow leapfrog them in ML, but I highly doubt that :-)
 
T O Shooter said:
commiebiker said:
Mister Anders0n said:
I agree that ML is a solution looking for a problem.
Click to expand...
I think it would be more accurate to say that the mirror box is a solution to a problem that no longer exists,

It is actually an impediment to features that are possible only by moving it out of the way, or getting rid of it altogether
Click to expand...
You're wrong. There are many things you can't do with an ML that you can do with a DSLR.
Click to expand...
I'm right. There are many things you can do with a ML that you can't do with a DSLR.

The point is that there will be more and more things you can do. The mirror was a great idea. WAS
 
commiebiker said:
T O Shooter said:
commiebiker said:
Mister Anders0n said:
I agree that ML is a solution looking for a problem.
Click to expand...
I think it would be more accurate to say that the mirror box is a solution to a problem that no longer exists,

It is actually an impediment to features that are possible only by moving it out of the way, or getting rid of it altogether
Click to expand...
You're wrong. There are many things you can't do with an ML that you can do with a DSLR.
Click to expand...
I'm right. There are many things you can do with a ML that you can't do with a DSLR.

The point is that there will be more and more things you can do. The mirror was a great idea. WAS
Click to expand...
My problem is that I'm going fat from all the popcorn I consume since the Z cameras were released ;-)
 
Mister Anders0n said:
If Nikon does cram ML down our throats, and my D850 breaks or something, I think I'll be moving to Sony at that point....unless Nikon can somehow leapfrog them in ML, but I highly doubt that :-)
Click to expand...
I shot extensively with the Sony A7 system, but moved back to Nikon.

One of the biggest reasons was so I could take advantage of all my existing Nikon glass...big-ticket items like the 300 2.8, 200-400 and the excellent 70 - 200e.

All of them work perfectly on the Z system

Not sure where you get this idea that Nikon is cramming ML down your throats or that you have to sell everything you have ever loved in order to use a Z

It's another option for taking photos. Most people appreciate having additional options
 
Flashlight said:
commiebiker said:
T O Shooter said:
commiebiker said:
Mister Anders0n said:
I agree that ML is a solution looking for a problem.
Click to expand...
I think it would be more accurate to say that the mirror box is a solution to a problem that no longer exists,

It is actually an impediment to features that are possible only by moving it out of the way, or getting rid of it altogether
Click to expand...
You're wrong. There are many things you can't do with an ML that you can do with a DSLR.
Click to expand...
I'm right. There are many things you can do with a ML that you can't do with a DSLR.

The point is that there will be more and more things you can do. The mirror was a great idea. WAS
Click to expand...
My problem is that I'm going fat from all the popcorn I consume since the Z cameras were released ;-)
Click to expand...
Keep away from the buttered and easy on the salt and you should be OK :)
 
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