Family photos in a park and Uncle Harry's

Rob184102 · Oct 10, 2003

I don't know how to handle this. Client contacts me to shoot a family of 18 people outdoors if weather is good. I have scouted around for a nice area with nice fall color and found it in a park.

Everyone shows up today for the shoot I bring my own benches to pose people on for the 18 people shot and the sub groups.

I get the group of 18 people posed very nice on my benches and start to shoot. Then Uncle Harry is right behind me shooting my groups posed on my benches at the location I scouted and found. He is shooting the groups I have posed and I know I am going to see my print sales go out the window because I have to charge for prints and Uncle Harry will give away his prints of my hard work posing, bringing in the benches and finding the location ans seting things up at a good angle for the light.

The same scenario has happened several times before this time before with different people.

I don't want to get mad at these people but this is costing me income for work I do. I don't know how to deal with this.
I could simply fly off the handle but I hate to do that.
But I do feel I am being taken advantage of by these people.

One thing I have thought of is just to increase my session fee to the point I get paid for my time and not worry about print sales. But I think most clients would view this as prohibitive in cost and go to another studio.

I have also thought about just offering a scouting and posing service where I don't even bring a camera, I just find the location and set up the groups with my props and benches.

Lastly I was thinking about charging one price without Uncle Harrys, lower session fee. And a higher fee with Uncle Harrys also shooting.
Ideas anyone?

Bobsworld · Oct 10, 2003

... at these events and you should nip it in the bud. Spell it out to the client who hired you, before you take the job, and tell him you expect exclusivity. He should tell Harry to holster his weapon, not you.

Harp1 said:
I don't know how to handle this. Client contacts me to shoot a
family of 18 people outdoors if weather is good. I have scouted
around for a nice area with nice fall color and found it in a park.
Everyone shows up today for the shoot I bring my own benches to
pose people on for the 18 people shot and the sub groups.
I get the group of 18 people posed very nice on my benches and
start to shoot. Then Uncle Harry is right behind me shooting my
groups posed on my benches at the location I scouted and found. He
is shooting the groups I have posed and I know I am going to see my
print sales go out the window because I have to charge for prints
and Uncle Harry will give away his prints of my hard work posing,
bringing in the benches and finding the location ans seting things
up at a good angle for the light.
The same scenario has happened several times before this time
before with different people.
I don't want to get mad at these people but this is costing me
income for work I do. I don't know how to deal with this.
I could simply fly off the handle but I hate to do that.
But I do feel I am being taken advantage of by these people.
One thing I have thought of is just to increase my session fee to
the point I get paid for my time and not worry about print sales.
But I think most clients would view this as prohibitive in cost and
go to another studio.
I have also thought about just offering a scouting and posing
service where I don't even bring a camera, I just find the location
and set up the groups with my props and benches.
Lastly I was thinking about charging one price without Uncle
Harrys, lower session fee. And a higher fee with Uncle Harrys also
shooting.
Ideas anyone?

adanac · Oct 10, 2003

BobSo is right about having your client understand the exclusivity of location shooting... The client that came to you should be told in advance that only you will be using the camera that day...

Sometimes, tact works and it could backfire... but as long as you have the client on your side then you have nothing to worry.... I could be that this uncle Harry is so unreasonable that the client maybe thanking you for telling him to not take pictures...

All you do is take your main contact for a little one-on-one and explain the situation ... they may say that they're unfomfortable in telling Uncle Harry to lay low but you go ahead and say that you do mind him taking snaps that you're spending all that time...

BobSo said:
Harp1 said:

I don't know how to handle this. Client contacts me to shoot a
family of 18 people outdoors if weather is good. I have scouted
around for a nice area with nice fall color and found it in a park.
Everyone shows up today for the shoot I bring my own benches to
pose people on for the 18 people shot and the sub groups.
I get the group of 18 people posed very nice on my benches and
start to shoot. Then Uncle Harry is right behind me shooting my
groups posed on my benches at the location I scouted and found. He
is shooting the groups I have posed and I know I am going to see my
print sales go out the window because I have to charge for prints
and Uncle Harry will give away his prints of my hard work posing,
bringing in the benches and finding the location ans seting things
up at a good angle for the light.
The same scenario has happened several times before this time
before with different people.
I don't want to get mad at these people but this is costing me
income for work I do. I don't know how to deal with this.
I could simply fly off the handle but I hate to do that.
But I do feel I am being taken advantage of by these people.
One thing I have thought of is just to increase my session fee to
the point I get paid for my time and not worry about print sales.
But I think most clients would view this as prohibitive in cost and
go to another studio.
I have also thought about just offering a scouting and posing
service where I don't even bring a camera, I just find the location
and set up the groups with my props and benches.
Lastly I was thinking about charging one price without Uncle
Harrys, lower session fee. And a higher fee with Uncle Harrys also
shooting.
Ideas anyone?

Click to expand...

Brian McDermott · Oct 11, 2003

Under this type of hired shooting, my contract states, (and I enforce), that I will be the sole photographer. If someone is taken shots of my work, then I kindly ask the client to deal with the situation. It has never caused a problem.

BTW, if it did cause a problem; I would simply not continue the session. This might sound rude, but I'm not doing this for charity, this is a business.

At weddings, I don't care about other photographers, as long as they don't interfere with the shots the B&G are paying me to get.

You should value your work, otherwise no one else will.

Brian

Harp1 said:
I don't know how to handle this. Client contacts me to shoot a
family of 18 people outdoors if weather is good. I have scouted
around for a nice area with nice fall color and found it in a park.
Everyone shows up today for the shoot I bring my own benches to
pose people on for the 18 people shot and the sub groups.
I get the group of 18 people posed very nice on my benches and
start to shoot. Then Uncle Harry is right behind me shooting my
groups posed on my benches at the location I scouted and found. He
is shooting the groups I have posed and I know I am going to see my
print sales go out the window because I have to charge for prints
and Uncle Harry will give away his prints of my hard work posing,
bringing in the benches and finding the location ans seting things
up at a good angle for the light.
The same scenario has happened several times before this time
before with different people.
I don't want to get mad at these people but this is costing me
income for work I do. I don't know how to deal with this.
I could simply fly off the handle but I hate to do that.
But I do feel I am being taken advantage of by these people.
One thing I have thought of is just to increase my session fee to
the point I get paid for my time and not worry about print sales.
But I think most clients would view this as prohibitive in cost and
go to another studio.
I have also thought about just offering a scouting and posing
service where I don't even bring a camera, I just find the location
and set up the groups with my props and benches.
Lastly I was thinking about charging one price without Uncle
Harrys, lower session fee. And a higher fee with Uncle Harrys also
shooting.
Ideas anyone?

WWill · Oct 11, 2003

I think the best policy is always to explain to your client (preferably before but if necessary in real time) your legitimate business concerns. You have to be able to be profitable. You can reach this goal either through a higher session fee or enforcing exclusive rights to shoot. Explain that to the customer plainly. If you're comfortable with either approach give the customer a choice in how he's charged. Otherwise tell him that you have chosen to do business in whichever particular fashion you prefer.

My personal belief is that with the proliferation of good, inexpensive digital copying and printing equipment getting your money up front is going to become the only viable business methodology in the very near future. It's impossible to keep people from buying one 8x10 and making copies. Even with the copyright law on your side how will you know? If you find out, do you want to sue your customers? If you sue, would you be able to collect enough in damages to make the whole thing worthwhile?

I don't do this type of photography but if I did I would be honing a sales pitch that encourages a customer to pay a sitting fee and a fee upon acceptance of the pictures that grants the customer all rights to the photos. I'd make the first fee my break even and the second my profit margin. I'd explain that to the customer, i.e. "You meet my costs for me to show up. I make money if you're happy." (Any I'd probably deny Uncle Harry's rights to shoot besides.) I know that flies in the face of how everyone's done business in the past but in a world without negatives business models are going to have to change. (Just ask Kodak.)

WWill

Harp1 said:
I don't know how to handle this. Client contacts me to shoot a
family of 18 people outdoors if weather is good. I have scouted
around for a nice area with nice fall color and found it in a park.
Everyone shows up today for the shoot I bring my own benches to
pose people on for the 18 people shot and the sub groups.
I get the group of 18 people posed very nice on my benches and
start to shoot. Then Uncle Harry is right behind me shooting my
groups posed on my benches at the location I scouted and found. He
is shooting the groups I have posed and I know I am going to see my
print sales go out the window because I have to charge for prints
and Uncle Harry will give away his prints of my hard work posing,
bringing in the benches and finding the location ans seting things
up at a good angle for the light.
The same scenario has happened several times before this time
before with different people.
I don't want to get mad at these people but this is costing me
income for work I do. I don't know how to deal with this.
I could simply fly off the handle but I hate to do that.
But I do feel I am being taken advantage of by these people.
One thing I have thought of is just to increase my session fee to
the point I get paid for my time and not worry about print sales.
But I think most clients would view this as prohibitive in cost and
go to another studio.
I have also thought about just offering a scouting and posing
service where I don't even bring a camera, I just find the location
and set up the groups with my props and benches.
Lastly I was thinking about charging one price without Uncle
Harrys, lower session fee. And a higher fee with Uncle Harrys also
shooting.
Ideas anyone?

Nick Redding · Oct 11, 2003

Harp1 said:
Everyone shows up today for the shoot I bring my own benches to
pose people on for the 18 people shot and the sub groups.
I get the group of 18 people posed very nice on my benches and
start to shoot. Then Uncle Harry is right behind me shooting my
groups posed on my benches at the location I scouted and found. He
is shooting the groups I have posed and I know I am going to see my
print sales go out the window because I have to charge for prints
and Uncle Harry will give away his prints of my hard work posing,
bringing in the benches and finding the location ans seting things
up at a good angle for the light.

You seem to be saying that a lot (if not all) of the value you bring to the table is bringing benches, scouting locations, and setting up poses. If this is the case, then you should state this up front to your customers, and charge accordingly for the time required to do this. If Uncle Harry's free prints beat out your shots (when your clients assumed they would be paying for your photographs) then perhaps your shots aren't much better than Uncle Harry's. This should give you cause to think about the quality of your work. Good photography depends on a lot of factors, not just the benches, location and lighting. Hitting the shutter release button at the right moment is pretty important too, and only experience can guide one on that. If you feel threatened by an Uncle Harry, you don't have a compelling value proposition for your customers.

I'll stand back now and await the flaming from indignant pros. I know, the truth hurts.

Ron Baskin · Oct 12, 2003

WWill said:
I think the best policy is always to explain to your client
(preferably before but if necessary in real time) your legitimate
business concerns. You have to be able to be profitable. You can
reach this goal either through a higher session fee or enforcing
exclusive rights to shoot. Explain that to the customer plainly. If
you're comfortable with either approach give the customer a choice
in how he's charged. Otherwise tell him that you have chosen to do
business in whichever particular fashion you prefer.

My personal belief is that with the proliferation of good,
inexpensive digital copying and printing equipment getting your
money up front is going to become the only viable business
methodology in the very near future. It's impossible to keep people
from buying one 8x10 and making copies. Even with the copyright law
on your side how will you know? If you find out, do you want to sue
your customers? If you sue, would you be able to collect enough in
damages to make the whole thing worthwhile?

No question about it. I've thought about this on several occasions. Even if your client understands the value of the quality of your work, the others who might buy your prints may not. Thus, they would be willing to settle for somewhat lesser quality prints which could be obtained with easily affordable scanning and printing equipment. Speak with an attorney about the costs of litigation and you could discover you'd be even deeper in the whole by pursuing a lawsuit.
I don't do this type of photography but if I did I would be honing
a sales pitch that encourages a customer to pay a sitting fee and a
fee upon acceptance of the pictures that grants the customer all
rights to the photos. I'd make the first fee my break even and the
second my profit margin. I'd explain that to the customer, i.e.
"You meet my costs for me to show up. I make money if you're
happy." (Any I'd probably deny Uncle Harry's rights to shoot
besides.) I know that flies in the face of how everyone's done
business in the past but in a world without negatives business
models are going to have to change. (Just ask Kodak.)

This is a business model everyone should consider. Even if you only accept its basic premise, it's a very good place to start. Like you, I don't often do this type of photography, though I have been asked on occasion. Thanks for providing a good model upon which to base future work.

--
Ron Baskin

Ed Halley · Oct 12, 2003

WWill said:
getting your
money up front is going to become the only viable business
methodology in the very near future. It's impossible to keep people
from buying one 8x10 and making copies. Even with the copyright law
on your side how will you know? If you find out, do you want to sue
your customers? If you sue, would you be able to collect enough in
damages to make the whole thing worthwhile?

Thanks for writing that up-- I have been watching the sofware world, the music world, and now the photography world, go through exactly these questions for decades. You're one of the first who has expressed the "writing on the wall" so clearly, and in pro territory at that.

--
[ e d @ h a l l e y . c c ] http://www.halley.cc/pix/

Ed Halley · Oct 12, 2003

Nick Redding said:
If Uncle Harry's free prints beat out your
shots (when your clients assumed they would be paying for your
photographs) then perhaps your shots aren't much better than Uncle
Harry's. This should give you cause to think about the quality of
your work.

In one sense you're right, but there's an important factor here. You're generally not selling photographs to people who know HOW to critique photographs. They might look at Joe Pro's prints, and Uncle Harry's prints, and not be able to see much difference. Uncle Harry is likely right there when they compare prints, too.

The customer decides what is "good enough," and a bunch of gratis gift prints from Uncle Harry is usually enough value to overlook the non-professional timing, poor lighting, and the lack of Harry in the group portrait.

The principle of "good enough" is a lot stronger and prevalent than many experts think. A Ford Taurus is "good enough" if it lasts six years, not ten or twenty. A bagel is "good enough" if there's no mold on it, even if it's a bit too chewy. And so on.

--
[ e d @ h a l l e y . c c ] http://www.halley.cc/pix/

BobTrips · Oct 12, 2003

WWill said:
My personal belief is that with the proliferation of good,
inexpensive digital copying and printing equipment getting your
money up front is going to become the only viable business
methodology in the very near future. It's impossible to keep people
from buying one 8x10 and making copies. Even with the copyright law
on your side how will you know? If you find out, do you want to sue
your customers? If you sue, would you be able to collect enough in
damages to make the whole thing worthwhile?

Pro photographers, especially wedding photographers probably should step back for a moment and think about what the world was like when the 'Shoot the event, Present a set of prints, Sell further copies' business model was developed.

Good cameras were expensive and difficult to master. Darkroom work was truly magic. It could only be done after much training a practice. Making copies meant having the negative in your hands.

Now a decent $300 digital camera will make quite good pictures, a less-than-$1k digital will make great 8"x10"s. And in many circumstances you don't need to know anything more than how to turn it on and push the button.

Most people have some basic understanding of digital editing. They've seen it done on TV or in a movie. One can pick up some basic skills in just a few minutes.

For the price of a few 8x10s from the wedding photographer one can get a good inkjet printer and crank out the prints. Or they can look around for a Walmart/Costco/Sam's that doesn't care about copyright laws.

This is today's world. One needs to find a new business model to fit this world.

--
bob
Latest offering - 'Two Hours in Delhi'
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
Shots from a bunch of places (esp. SEA and Nepal).
Pictures for friends, not necessarily my best.

http://www.trekearth.com/members/BobTrips/photos/
My better 'attempts'.

Tinker Photo · Oct 12, 2003

I read this on this forum ...i think...but I am gonna start trying it as soon as my vagabond system gets here..

if you have an extra strobe, set that puppy to full power and turn it around backwards. make sure the slave tripper is on. Then if Uncle Harry uses flash...BAMMO! instant polished turd in his point and shoot!

--
Clint Smith
Tinker Photography
If God is love, and love is blind . . . Ray Charles must be God!

I_ShotEm_All · Oct 12, 2003

Tinker Photo said:
I read this on this forum ...i think...but I am gonna start trying
it as soon as my vagabond system gets here..

if you have an extra strobe, set that puppy to full power and turn
it around backwards. make sure the slave tripper is on. Then if
Uncle Harry uses flash...BAMMO! instant polished turd in his point
and shoot!

--
Clint Smith
Tinker Photography
If God is love, and love is blind . . . Ray Charles must be God!

--

I like the slave idea on the fun scale, however, on a more practical note, I agree with the first few posters, be a professional and spell out the terms of your work up front...you are the only shooter.

I_ShotEm_All
http://www.urbanbunz.com/

Tinker Photo · Oct 12, 2003

I think that the general public has no clue what makes a good portrait ...better yet a good protrait photog.

Depth of field, lighting...who needs it. Most of the general public just want to see the blue in Aunt Edna's wig and that she is in focus and that you can make out her face.

This is the reason I don't like doing big groups. Usually because there is one person in the family that understands what good photography is and they are the ones that hire the photographer. The rest are the villiage idiots who would rather have Uncle Harry's picture....mainly because Uncle Harry took it!

--
Clint Smith
Tinker Photography
If God is love, and love is blind . . . Ray Charles must be God!

Scot Perry · Oct 13, 2003

Your assuming uncle Harry sucks at photography. What if he has good equipment and is competent at getting an exposure which is all that is left at that point. I think your just trolling here or a little naive to say the least.

Scot Perry

Nick Redding said:
Harp1 said:

Everyone shows up today for the shoot I bring my own benches to
pose people on for the 18 people shot and the sub groups.
I get the group of 18 people posed very nice on my benches and
start to shoot. Then Uncle Harry is right behind me shooting my
groups posed on my benches at the location I scouted and found. He
is shooting the groups I have posed and I know I am going to see my
print sales go out the window because I have to charge for prints
and Uncle Harry will give away his prints of my hard work posing,
bringing in the benches and finding the location ans seting things
up at a good angle for the light.

Click to expand...

You seem to be saying that a lot (if not all) of the value you
bring to the table is bringing benches, scouting locations, and
setting up poses. If this is the case, then you should state this
up front to your customers, and charge accordingly for the time
required to do this. If Uncle Harry's free prints beat out your
shots (when your clients assumed they would be paying for your
photographs) then perhaps your shots aren't much better than Uncle
Harry's. This should give you cause to think about the quality of
your work. Good photography depends on a lot of factors, not just
the benches, location and lighting. Hitting the shutter release
button at the right moment is pretty important too, and only
experience can guide one on that. If you feel threatened by an
Uncle Harry, you don't have a compelling value proposition for your
customers.

I'll stand back now and await the flaming from indignant pros. I
know, the truth hurts.

rick porter · Oct 13, 2003

I do it @ weddings all the time!!!! 800 watt seconds instant over exposure

Tinker Photo said:
I read this on this forum ...i think...but I am gonna start trying
it as soon as my vagabond system gets here..

if you have an extra strobe, set that puppy to full power and turn
it around backwards. make sure the slave tripper is on. Then if
Uncle Harry uses flash...BAMMO! instant polished turd in his point
and shoot!

--
Clint Smith
Tinker Photography
If God is love, and love is blind . . . Ray Charles must be God!

S_Leeper · Oct 13, 2003

Harp1 said:
I don't know how to handle this. Client contacts me to shoot a
family of 18 people outdoors if weather is good. I have scouted
around for a nice area with nice fall color and found it in a park.
Everyone shows up today for the shoot I bring my own benches to
pose people on for the 18 people shot and the sub groups.
I get the group of 18 people posed very nice on my benches and
start to shoot. Then Uncle Harry is right behind me shooting my
groups posed on my benches at the location I scouted and found. He
is shooting the groups I have posed and I know I am going to see my
print sales go out the window because I have to charge for prints
and Uncle Harry will give away his prints of my hard work posing,
bringing in the benches and finding the location ans seting things
up at a good angle for the light.
The same scenario has happened several times before this time
before with different people.
I don't want to get mad at these people but this is costing me
income for work I do. I don't know how to deal with this.
I could simply fly off the handle but I hate to do that.
But I do feel I am being taken advantage of by these people.
One thing I have thought of is just to increase my session fee to
the point I get paid for my time and not worry about print sales.
But I think most clients would view this as prohibitive in cost and
go to another studio.
I have also thought about just offering a scouting and posing
service where I don't even bring a camera, I just find the location
and set up the groups with my props and benches.
Lastly I was thinking about charging one price without Uncle
Harrys, lower session fee. And a higher fee with Uncle Harrys also
shooting.
Ideas anyone?

A lot of good points made above...

One suggestion (that won't be easy, or else everyone would have already done it) is to require a deposit, for a minimum print fee. Whether they want to only buy one print & scan it, or have Uncle Harry over your shoulder would be less (not un-) important, since you would at least get the minimum you expected.
You can then add-on matte's, frames, etc.

Doug MacMillan · Oct 14, 2003

Nick Redding said:
You seem to be saying that a lot (if not all) of the value you
bring to the table is bringing benches, scouting locations, and
setting up poses. If Uncle Harry's free prints beat out your
shots (when your clients assumed they would be paying for your
photographs) then perhaps your shots aren't much better than Uncle
Harry's. This should give you cause to think about the quality of
your work. Good photography depends on a lot of factors, not just
the benches, location and lighting.

I think you are minimizing the contributions of location scouting and posing. The benches are part of the posing process. Even if taken with available light, a pro will "light" an outdoor portrait by selecting time of day, sun angle, shade and even natrual reflectors.

I have a friend who set up a commercial shoot that required models, locations, grips lighting equipment, etc. He had everything composed and ready and turns around and the art director is standing behind him on the ladder with a hassy copying everything he did. They ended up using a frame from the art director, not because it was better, but because they dodged paying usage rights. The clod A.D. took full credit for the photo, but all he did was steal the talent and preparation of the pro.

I know of a beach portrait photographer that encourages folks to leave their cameras at home. He does a good job of pointing out it is to their advantage, that the light won't last and if they are paying him good money to make photographs, they should "leave the driving to him".

Doug

Peter Lindsey50614 · Oct 14, 2003

Ed Halley said:
WWill said:

getting your
money up front is going to become the only viable business
methodology in the very near future. It's impossible to keep people
from buying one 8x10 and making copies. Even with the copyright law
on your side how will you know? If you find out, do you want to sue
your customers? If you sue, would you be able to collect enough in
damages to make the whole thing worthwhile?

Click to expand...

Thanks for writing that up-- I have been watching the sofware
world, the music world, and now the photography world, go through
exactly these questions for decades. You're one of the first who
has expressed the "writing on the wall" so clearly, and in pro
territory at that.

In the pro world, maybe copyright is still enforcable, but in this situation, where you're selling direct to retail, work-for-hire or a one-off cost is the only way to go.

Incidentally, my Wedding photogropher shot, developed, selected, printed chemically on beautiful matte paper and mounted in a book my wedding photos. They were very good, even though he used daylight film for the whole bunch (the yellow tone was not unwelcome) except the medium format formals, and he gave us the entire set of 35mm negatives (not the MF). All for $700. As a photographer I was shocked, but as a customer, very pleased.

I did indeed scan all those negatives, and a few extra copies were given to friends.

Walker50062 · Oct 14, 2003

Clint,

How does one make a living when all your customers are clueless?

If we are happy with Uncle Harry's efforts, then why should this village idiot hire Tinker Photo?

Thanks,

Walker

Tinker Photo said:
I think that the general public has no clue what makes a good
portrait ...better yet a good protrait photog.

Depth of field, lighting...who needs it. Most of the general
public just want to see the blue in Aunt Edna's wig and that she is
in focus and that you can make out her face.

This is the reason I don't like doing big groups. Usually because
there is one person in the family that understands what good
photography is and they are the ones that hire the photographer.
The rest are the villiage idiots who would rather have Uncle
Harry's picture....mainly because Uncle Harry took it!

--
Clint Smith
Tinker Photography
If God is love, and love is blind . . . Ray Charles must be God!

--
Walker
http://www.pbase.com/walker
Hogdriver

snapzz · Oct 15, 2003

Your lucky if you only have one Uncle Harry, at weddings there are usully several and a few Aunt Sally's too. But back to your problem, if you insist on exclusivity at your shoots it may cause bad feeling.My advice is to charge per hour with the anticipated time (ie one hour) paid as a deposit.When Uncle Harry shows up walk up to your group and adjust something and keep doing it between shots, this will frustrate him. This always looks professional because you are "seeing" something they are not. When you do this hold your arms out and shout "hold it someone moved" Walk in front of Uncle Harry when moving to the group to spoil his shot.When you are ready, TELL Uncle Harry he is free to take as many shots as he likes but to stand on the side out of the way.This will ruin his angle. If Uncle harry asks to wait untill he takes his shot, tell him time is money and HE cannot afford your overtime (say it with a smile, very hard to be annoyed with someone who is smiling at you).Then carry on and move onto next group. Finnally above all else the THREE things that will set your shots apart from Uncle Harry's is
EXPRESSION, EXPRESSION, EXPRESSION.
Good luck
Graham

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