New Battery Test and Contest

Just Looking · Sep 22, 2003

Ken N said:
I've never had any trouble with the Nimh AA cells. I don't know
what all the fuss is about. I'm still using my old 1200 and 1500
cells, and they keep on plunking along. Of course, they need the
ocassional recharging, but no problem.

that makes me dredge up my old conjecture: that the new high-capacity cells have probably sacrificed internal resistance in striving for high capacity, and that the older lower-capacity cells will actually work more effectively in an SD9 due to their consistenly low internal resistance.

I think the highly variable results of AA usage correlates to highly variable internal resistance, in other words.

I have a new idea for a tester to compare batteries: make an external battery holder with a plug that fits the DC input, and instrument the voltage and current of the battery pack with a couple of meters. Put the camera into slide-show repeat mode to keep it pretty consistently busy with LCD on, and measure voltage and current until it dies. Repeat with different battery types, and plot curves. Compare chargers that way, too.

Anybody have the patience to try it, or the hacker power to automate it?

j

Kok Chen · Sep 22, 2003

I believe you are correct. Go to near the bottom of this page:

http://www.buchmann.ca/chap9-page1.asp

Same curves are on this site:

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-22.htm

It seems the internal resistance of the old NiCd cells are lower than the newer NiMH or even the even newer Li-ions.

The CR-V3 is a Lithium battery. This page touts the low and flat internal resistance curve with discharge, but does not mention a quantitative figure:

http://www.hdssystems.com/LithiumBattery.htm

I guess it is time to pull out the old tired NiCd cells to try. Heck, I think I'll go see if I can find some new NiCd at the stores and run some tests this weekend.

kc

Ken N · Sep 23, 2003

The most annoying problem with the Nimh cells is that they lack shelf-life. If I charge them up and set them aside for a week or so, I'm guaranteed that I'll have to recharge them before using them. My other cameras use lithium cells of one type or another, and if I charge them up, I can just set them aside for a couple of weeks and be reasonably assured that I won't have to recharge them before using them. For my purposes, I like using lithium cells, but that's just my personal requirement.

Just Looking said:
Ken N said:

I've never had any trouble with the Nimh AA cells. I don't know
what all the fuss is about. I'm still using my old 1200 and 1500
cells, and they keep on plunking along. Of course, they need the
ocassional recharging, but no problem.

Click to expand...

that makes me dredge up my old conjecture: that the new
high-capacity cells have probably sacrificed internal resistance in
striving for high capacity, and that the older lower-capacity cells
will actually work more effectively in an SD9 due to their
consistenly low internal resistance.

I think the highly variable results of AA usage correlates to
highly variable internal resistance, in other words.

I have a new idea for a tester to compare batteries: make an
external battery holder with a plug that fits the DC input, and
instrument the voltage and current of the battery pack with a
couple of meters. Put the camera into slide-show repeat mode to
keep it pretty consistently busy with LCD on, and measure voltage
and current until it dies. Repeat with different battery types,
and plot curves. Compare chargers that way, too.

Anybody have the patience to try it, or the hacker power to
automate it?

j

sg10 · Sep 23, 2003

A friend of mine recently visited the local Sigma sales/service center to have his focus calibrated, he also has the rather common battery tray problem where he gets limited shots then has to re-seat to keep power on. The tech had several of the new replacement trays fresh from Sigma Japan in the shop, but couldn't promise him one right away. :^(

He got a good look at them and said the tech pointed out the difference is chunky metal contacts, estimated maybe 1/8th inch thick on the ends of the springs instead of the thin caps that currently make battery contact.

Makes me wonder if that isn't an easy fix for a courageous DYI'er. Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to beef up.

Laurence Matson · Sep 23, 2003

Steve,

This gets to the root of the problem. The battery tray is made for two different sizes. The recommended CR-V3 is about 1.5 mm longer than a standard AA-sized battery.

We have also considered other concepts, such as inserting a wedge half-way up the spring to reduce it compression ability similar to the changing the spring ratio on a car.

None of these solutions, however, solve the problems caused by the increased resistance through all of the additional contacts when using AA sized batteries of any kind.

We can only hope that Sigma gets the word and that the next camera has a better solution.

--
Laurence Φ€

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Ken N · Sep 23, 2003

There has to be some other explanation of the problem than increased resistance. The resistance of a piece of electrical contact metal 1/8" or so thickness used in the battery tray has to be down in the milliohm range. Even "contact resistance" is likewise way down there in the milliohm range. Unless they used extremely poor materials (whch is very unlikely with todays technology), there has to be some other reason for loss of power and the need to rotate/reinsert the batteries. Unless the materials are very easily corroded, I would look elsewhere for an answer.

Laurence Matson said:
Steve,

This gets to the root of the problem. The battery tray is made for
two different sizes. The recommended CR-V3 is about 1.5 mm longer
than a standard AA-sized battery.

We have also considered other concepts, such as inserting a wedge
half-way up the spring to reduce it compression ability similar to
the changing the spring ratio on a car.

None of these solutions, however, solve the problems caused by the
increased resistance through all of the additional contacts when
using AA sized batteries of any kind.

We can only hope that Sigma gets the word and that the next camera
has a better solution.

--
Laurence Φ€

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Laurence Matson · Sep 23, 2003

Ken,

I am no battery expert to be sure. I am just good at repeating good advice.

However, when looking at my battery tray, it is remarkable at how thin the metal is. If they are beefing it up, it would seem to me to be part of an effort to get better throughput or whatever you want to call it.

I think there is also something to be said for all of the contacts, when wobbly, adding to the problem. But someone with more knowledge will have to speak to that.

--
Laurence Φ€

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Laurence Matson · Oct 10, 2003

Madame and I have just returned from an exhausting vacation with 11 dogs and 6 kids. We all took lots of pictures.

The stunning news, however, that I am sure you have all been waiting for, is that my four Duracell CR-V3s died at image 6249 - after only 1486 images - while I was standing in front of Bayeux cathedral on our only really stunning day, weather-wise.

I will admit that I was a bit disappointed, since I thought I could get to 1600. Had I not run off a bunch of dumb test shots, I would have those images of the façade. Also, a lot of MLU for tripod shots.

The real bummer is that Kosly won. I put out an all-points bulletin for all of the Midwest and have the FBI trying to track him down, but apparently he did not protest heavily enough against the Vietnam war to really have a record. I think they just got lax when it came to identifying a kid in diapers holding a candle.

In any case, I am putting out an appeal to Kosly to come forward now and accept his prize. Be brave and act like a man! You can send me your home address via e-mail or publish it here if you want visitors returning from their free three-month stay and Decker's (available to all SD9 owners, their extended families, and pets, which tells you why we just chartered a cheap 707 flight with all the Nutella you can eat (compliments of Sony) to Hawaii next winter).

P.S. The 123a batteries are still going strong at 1840 images Steve W. Your slander was apparently noted at Sigma, and their attorneys will be in touch.

--
Laurence Φ€

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

stevechong · Oct 10, 2003

Such a pleasure to read your post again! We have been good boys during your absence! No bashing on other camera and such LOL!

Welcome back Laurence!

Regards,
--
http://www.stevechong.com

K Joseph · Oct 10, 2003

You should have 'SEEN' what happened in your absense. Someone started a post ( not pointing at any fingers) in which they took wagers as to what you would do first when you came home. Would you unpack ...... your camera and the dogs, before unpacking the family? Would you upload pic's before you got settled in ?

WHO would do such a thing like that ?

AT any rate, my email is : [email protected] Drop me a note, b/c i'm in dire need of collecitng my prize

LOL

BTW I've taken a few more pictures but you can only find them on my personal website. I haven't posted them on PBase yet.

http://kwietone0.tripod.com under pictures/ page 3

Laurence Matson said:
Madame and I have just returned from an exhausting vacation with 11
dogs and 6 kids. We all took lots of pictures.

The stunning news, however, that I am sure you have all been
waiting for, is that my four Duracell CR-V3s died at image 6249 -
after only 1486 images - while I was standing in front of Bayeux
cathedral on our only really stunning day, weather-wise.

I will admit that I was a bit disappointed, since I thought I could
get to 1600. Had I not run off a bunch of dumb test shots, I would
have those images of the façade. Also, a lot of MLU for tripod
shots.

The real bummer is that Kosly won. I put out an all-points bulletin
for all of the Midwest and have the FBI trying to track him down,
but apparently he did not protest heavily enough against the
Vietnam war to really have a record. I think they just got lax when
it came to identifying a kid in diapers holding a candle.

In any case, I am putting out an appeal to Kosly to come forward
now and accept his prize. Be brave and act like a man! You can send
me your home address via e-mail or publish it here if you want
visitors returning from their free three-month stay and Decker's
(available to all SD9 owners, their extended families, and pets,
which tells you why we just chartered a cheap 707 flight with all
the Nutella you can eat (compliments of Sony) to Hawaii next
winter).

P.S. The 123a batteries are still going strong at 1840 images Steve
W. Your slander was apparently noted at Sigma, and their attorneys
will be in touch.

--
Laurence Φ€

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

--
Sigma SD9
24-70EX
Olympus c4040z
http://kwietone0.tripod.com
Gallery
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/kosly_joseph

TucsonDave · Oct 10, 2003

Laurence Matson said:
The stunning news, however, that I am sure you have all been
waiting for, is that my four Duracell CR-V3s died at image 6249 -
after only 1486 images - while I was standing in front of Bayeux
cathedral on our only really stunning day, weather-wise.

The real bummer is that Kosly won.

I hereby formally protest the formal recognition of Kosly as the winner based on the following:

1. His entry was posed as a question (1500?) not a declaration of the estimated number.

2. Entry was not entered in the subject line by the entree but was entered by the contest administrator, L.M.
3. Kosly does not have a cute dog.
Dave
cc: Dewey, Cheatham, & Howe, Attorneys at Law
Don Siggy Freudeone, Professional Persuader.

K Joseph · Oct 10, 2003

This is begining to sound like the Re-Call election in California... :Þ

there will be other battery tests, and other prizes, so everyone will have a chance :Þ but for now ... it's my time to shine

TucsonDave said:
Laurence Matson said:

The stunning news, however, that I am sure you have all been
waiting for, is that my four Duracell CR-V3s died at image 6249 -
after only 1486 images - while I was standing in front of Bayeux
cathedral on our only really stunning day, weather-wise.

The real bummer is that Kosly won.

Click to expand...

I hereby formally protest the formal recognition of Kosly as the
winner based on the following:
1. His entry was posed as a question (1500?) not a declaration of
the estimated number.
2. Entry was not entered in the subject line by the entree but was
entered by the contest administrator, L.M.
3. Kosly does not have a cute dog.
Dave
cc: Dewey, Cheatham, & Howe, Attorneys at Law
Don Siggy Freudeone, Professional Persuader.

--
Sigma SD9
24-70EX
Olympus c4040z
http://kwietone0.tripod.com
Gallery
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/kosly_joseph

Laurence Matson · Oct 10, 2003

Dave,

I understand your pain, but you have to understand where Kosly is coming from. Growing up in the abysmal conditions prevailing in Lake Forest was tough enough. The confusion of having to miss out on a year of schooling ("Where did fifth grade go?") - another tax saving measuring foisted off on gullible KB as a merit-based skipping of a grade - did him "in" intellectually and is reflected even in his current "state" where he equates himself and his "win" to Californian "elections" ("Pass the bananas please.") and govenor-elect The Arnold. Does it surprise you that he would confuse a statement with a question? He even left a space before the question mark. We should consider ourselves lucky that his one semester of Spanish did not cause him to flip the punctuation and throw it at the beginning.

Besides, he didn't say anything perjorative about that dustmop you call a dog, which is more than I can say for some people.

--
Laurence Φ€

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

K Joseph · Oct 10, 2003

At least someone understands me ?right?

Laurence Matson said:
Dave,

I understand your pain, but you have to understand where Kosly is
coming from. Growing up in the abysmal conditions prevailing in
Lake Forest was tough enough. The confusion of having to miss out
on a year of schooling ("Where did fifth grade go?") - another tax
saving measuring foisted off on gullible KB as a merit-based
skipping of a grade - did him "in" intellectually and is reflected
even in his current "state" where he equates himself and his "win"
to Californian "elections" ("Pass the bananas please.") and
govenor-elect The Arnold. Does it surprise you that he would
confuse a statement with a question? He even left a space before
the question mark. We should consider ourselves lucky that his one
semester of Spanish did not cause him to flip the punctuation and
throw it at the beginning.

Besides, he didn't say anything perjorative about that dustmop you
call a dog, which is more than I can say for some people.

--
Laurence Φ€

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

--
Sigma SD9
24-70EX
Olympus c4040z
http://kwietone0.tripod.com
Gallery
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/kosly_joseph

TucsonDave · Oct 10, 2003

Laurence Matson said:
Dave,

I understand your pain, but you have to understand where Kosly is
coming from. Growing up in the abysmal conditions prevailing in
Lake Forest was tough enough. The confusion of having to miss out
on a year of schooling ("Where did fifth grade go?") - another tax
saving measuring foisted off on gullible KB as a merit-based
skipping of a grade - did him "in" intellectually and is reflected
even in his current "state" where he equates himself and his "win"
to Californian "elections" ("Pass the bananas please.") and
govenor-elect The Arnold. Does it surprise you that he would
confuse a statement with a question? He even left a space before
the question mark. We should consider ourselves lucky that his one
semester of Spanish did not cause him to flip the punctuation and
throw it at the beginning.

Besides, he didn't say anything perjorative about that dustmop you
call a dog, which is more than I can say for some people.

--
Laurence Φ€

pain?
PAIN?

So you are saying that the Kos wins because of conditions under which he was raised. Sort of a digital aphermative inaction. Or is he really a politician answering a question with a question? Even in Kal-ee-fo-nee-ya the winner is the nearest to the actual retail price without going over according to Bob Barker.

Speaking of barker, you have confused the dustmop in a vest (in another post) with my ultra cute black *****. You must still be raising too many Jack Daniels. Gotta go now. Have a session with Dr. F.
Off Topic: How can I get a Madam to carry my photo gear?
Dave

rick decker · Oct 10, 2003

Please don't speak disparagingly of Der Gropenfuhrer

R

Laurence Matson said:
Dave,

I understand your pain, but you have to understand where Kosly is
coming from. Growing up in the abysmal conditions prevailing in
Lake Forest was tough enough. The confusion of having to miss out
on a year of schooling ("Where did fifth grade go?") - another tax
saving measuring foisted off on gullible KB as a merit-based
skipping of a grade - did him "in" intellectually and is reflected
even in his current "state" where he equates himself and his "win"
to Californian "elections" ("Pass the bananas please.") and
govenor-elect The Arnold. Does it surprise you that he would
confuse a statement with a question? He even left a space before
the question mark. We should consider ourselves lucky that his one
semester of Spanish did not cause him to flip the punctuation and
throw it at the beginning.

Besides, he didn't say anything perjorative about that dustmop you
call a dog, which is more than I can say for some people.

--
Laurence Φ€

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

--
It's a tough job, living in Hawaii, but someone has to do it!!!

.......Feel The Power.........Sigma.....SD9..........

http://www.lightreflection.com
http://www.silveroaksranch.com
http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home

Laurence Matson · Oct 11, 2003

Each year, they present an award for the best new word in German. I am nominating this one. If it is yours, you are smarter than I thought. If not, you forgot the footnote.

rick decker said:
R

Laurence Matson said:

and is reflected
even in his current "state" where he equates himself and his "win"
to Californian "elections" ("Pass the bananas please.") and
govenor-elect The Arnold.

Click to expand...

--
Laurence Φ€

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Laurence Matson · Oct 11, 2003

Dave,

Adjust your valium dosage. I did not say Kosly won for thus and so. I just asked for some understanding for his under-handed ways. Growing up in the slums of Lake Forest is tough. Häll, that's almost Lake Bluff.

But go ahead, send me your address, and I'll send you the print. Kosly doesn't want his since he opted for two weeks in Hawaii with his extended family at Decker's goat farm and lawn chair museum. That way, I don't even have to pay postage.

TucsonDave said:
Off Topic: How can I get a Madam to carry my photo gear?

That is not a madam but the Madame. And she won't carry my photo gear. For that I have kids, who I can bribe with dead (at least in terms of shelf life) ice cream.

--
Laurence Φ€

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

TucsonDave · Oct 12, 2003

Laurence Matson said:
Dave,

Adjust your valium dosage. I did not say Kosly won for thus and so.
I just asked for some understanding for his under-handed ways.
Growing up in the slums of Lake Forest is tough. Häll, that's
almost Lake Bluff.

But go ahead, send me your address, and I'll send you the print.
Kosly doesn't want his since he opted for two weeks in Hawaii with
his extended family at Decker's goat farm and lawn chair museum.
That way, I don't even have to pay postage.

Sorry!

I guess I misunderstood. I'm just too conservative to understand under handedness. So I am prepared to accept consolation prize of complete set of Sigma AF & OS SD9 lenses courtesy of Decker. After all who wants to spend all that time in Hawaii surrounded by scantilly clad wahoonies (or whatever those babes in grass skirts are called) when one can be alone in the wilderness with one's SD9? (and ultra cute dog)
Dave

Laurence Matson · Oct 25, 2003

Just to close out this unscientific test.

My CR123a batteries finally died today at 1869 images.

What this completely irrelevant result tells me is that on my camera, I get the best reliability and long-term results with the Power Pack and quality (Duracell in this case) CR-V3 and CR123a batteries.

This was done in normal shooting in a wide variety of conditions. I had Dominic check one set of CR-V3s after use, and they were completely drained.

AFAIC, for normal use, this is probably the best setup. For those who really want to use NiMH batteries, I would go with the power pack. That is what I normally use and it is quite reliable.

End of thrilling story.

Laurence Matson said:
The death of my 123a batteries today prompted a fit of radical
behavior here.

In another brave and courageous move, I have placed 4 CR-V3
batteries into my power pack battery tray and slammed the door
shut. The counter is at 4763 for both the 123a and CR-V3 batteries.

List your guesses below as to how many images I get out of those
four batteries. The winner gets a free stay at Rick's house with my
compliments and his pocketbook. If he's not home when you get there
for some reason, I'll send you a print of one of my panos.

--
Laurence Φ€

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

--
Laurence Φ€ 08 LL

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

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