What about the smaller cameras?

bobn2 said:

Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

DrHook59 said:

Seeing as how Panasonic got burnt by the GM line selling poorly, I suspect that they would be very unwilling to do it again in an era when almost everyone now can have a phone in their pocket with similar IQ (or so the users would like to think). I think the rapidly improving specs of mobile phones coming through nowadays have really put a nail in the coffin of any idea anyone may have of another GM-sized model. I would love to be surprised at some stage, but I just do not think the market share for such a model would make it a financial viability.

Click to expand...

But the GM line was not a very small top-spec model, it was a very small base spec model.

Click to expand...

The body is simply too small to be ergonomically sounded.

Click to expand...

I'm not convinced that's the case. It might require a bit of thinking outside the box about how the controls work, but I don't think that's undoable.

Click to expand...

bobn2 said:

bobn2 said:

Putting top specs (20mp, pdaf etc) without all the dials and customizable buttons (due to lack of space) is useless and won't sell..

Click to expand...

See the above. There have been plenty of small cameras which are eminently usable in the past.

Click to expand...

bobn2 said:

The idea that it must be big to be usable is part of the whole 'small is low-end' myth, or at least post-rationalising it.

bobn2 said:

Small body is mainly targeted at women (at least that's how the Japanese sees it) who wants a camera simple and automatic everything.

Click to expand...

If you're right then I think that's a big marketing mistake.

Click to expand...

bobn2 said:

bobn2 said:

I believe most enthusiast want and prefer a bigger body (think em5).

Click to expand...

Most enthusiasts have plenty pf big bodies to choose from, if that's what they want. Many of those bug bodies use the bigness to deliver things that mFT can't.

Click to expand...

bobn2 said:

This is about finding niches - even if it doesn't get you 'most' it gets you those that want something different from what 'most' want.

bobn2 said:

Small and top specs is highly niched with no money to be made.

Click to expand...

I agree on the highly niched, I disagree on the 'no money to be made'. In any case that's a moot point, because it isn't making money anyway.

Click to expand...

bobn2 said:

bobn2 said:

I mean if they make a top specc'ed GM sized camera that cost the same if not more than an EM5.3 but still behind in ergonomics who in the right mind will buy that?

Click to expand...

I don't think it should be 'behind in ergonomics', but the general answer is, those for whom having a small camera allows them to do things they can't do with a big camera.

Click to expand...

bobn2 said:

bobn2 said:

bobn2 said:

You maybe right about how Panasonic sees it, but it's a clear example of what I was warning about, mixing up small and low-spec.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
...because you know, sometimes words have two meanings.

Click to expand...

Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

DrHook59 said:

Seeing as how Panasonic got burnt by the GM line selling poorly, I suspect that they would be very unwilling to do it again in an era when almost everyone now can have a phone in their pocket with similar IQ (or so the users would like to think). I think the rapidly improving specs of mobile phones coming through nowadays have really put a nail in the coffin of any idea anyone may have of another GM-sized model. I would love to be surprised at some stage, but I just do not think the market share for such a model would make it a financial viability.

Click to expand...

But the GM line was not a very small top-spec model, it was a very small base spec model.

Click to expand...

The body is simply too small to be ergonomically sounded.

Putting top specs (20mp, pdaf etc) without all the dials and customizable buttons (due to lack of space) is useless and won't sell..

Small body is mainly targeted at women (at least that's how the Japanese sees it) who wants a camera simple and automatic everything.

I believe most enthusiast want and prefer a bigger body (think em5).

Small and top specs is highly niched with no money to be made. I mean if they make a top specc'ed GM sized camera that cost the same if not more than an EM5.3 but still behind in ergonomics who in the right mind will buy that?

Click to expand...

Boombuia said:

Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

DrHook59 said:

Seeing as how Panasonic got burnt by the GM line selling poorly, I suspect that they would be very unwilling to do it again in an era when almost everyone now can have a phone in their pocket with similar IQ (or so the users would like to think). I think the rapidly improving specs of mobile phones coming through nowadays have really put a nail in the coffin of any idea anyone may have of another GM-sized model. I would love to be surprised at some stage, but I just do not think the market share for such a model would make it a financial viability.

Click to expand...

But the GM line was not a very small top-spec model, it was a very small base spec model.

Click to expand...

The body is simply too small to be ergonomically sounded.

Putting top specs (20mp, pdaf etc) without all the dials and customizable buttons (due to lack of space) is useless and won't sell..

Small body is mainly targeted at women (at least that's how the Japanese sees it) who wants a camera simple and automatic everything.

I believe most enthusiast want and prefer a bigger body (think em5).

Small and top specs is highly niched with no money to be made. I mean if they make a top specc'ed GM sized camera that cost the same if not more than an EM5.3 but still behind in ergonomics who in the right mind will buy that?

Click to expand...

Dennis, I think you analysis holds for users with only one camera - but there is a normal scenario where a user has a "large" body with good ergonomics for "serious" photography, another small body for more casual shooting.

Click to expand...

Boombuia said:

Perhaps Panasonic considers that its GM/GF camera lines are good enough for "casual shooting" and they are right - for now - eventually, the difference in quality will be become too obvious and those users might end up buying from a competitor or something.

Click to expand...

Dennis1972 said:

Boombuia said:

Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

DrHook59 said:

Seeing as how Panasonic got burnt by the GM line selling poorly, I suspect that they would be very unwilling to do it again in an era when almost everyone now can have a phone in their pocket with similar IQ (or so the users would like to think). I think the rapidly improving specs of mobile phones coming through nowadays have really put a nail in the coffin of any idea anyone may have of another GM-sized model. I would love to be surprised at some stage, but I just do not think the market share for such a model would make it a financial viability.

Click to expand...

But the GM line was not a very small top-spec model, it was a very small base spec model.

Click to expand...

The body is simply too small to be ergonomically sounded.

Putting top specs (20mp, pdaf etc) without all the dials and customizable buttons (due to lack of space) is useless and won't sell..

Small body is mainly targeted at women (at least that's how the Japanese sees it) who wants a camera simple and automatic everything.

I believe most enthusiast want and prefer a bigger body (think em5).

Small and top specs is highly niched with no money to be made. I mean if they make a top specc'ed GM sized camera that cost the same if not more than an EM5.3 but still behind in ergonomics who in the right mind will buy that?

Click to expand...

Dennis, I think you analysis holds for users with only one camera - but there is a normal scenario where a user has a "large" body with good ergonomics for "serious" photography, another small body for more casual shooting.

Click to expand...

There you said it - for causal shooting.

Causal shooting doesn't require top control. You certainly don't want to pay top dollar for a small top specs body for causal shooting right ?

Maybe you will, but the majority won't, meaning there is no sustainable market for such product.

Dennis1972 said:

Perhaps Panasonic considers that its GM/GF camera lines are good enough for "casual shooting" and they are right - for now - eventually, the difference in quality will be become too obvious and those users might end up buying from a competitor or something.

Click to expand...

Different in quality? The IQ difference between the original 16mp from em5 6+ years ago is barely noticeable from today's greatest such as G9/EM1X...

Besides causal shooter simply don't care. They are probably shooting jpg only and don't pixel peep...

Click to expand...

Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

DrHook59 said:

Seeing as how Panasonic got burnt by the GM line selling poorly, I suspect that they would be very unwilling to do it again in an era when almost everyone now can have a phone in their pocket with similar IQ (or so the users would like to think). I think the rapidly improving specs of mobile phones coming through nowadays have really put a nail in the coffin of any idea anyone may have of another GM-sized model. I would love to be surprised at some stage, but I just do not think the market share for such a model would make it a financial viability.

Click to expand...

But the GM line was not a very small top-spec model, it was a very small base spec model.

Click to expand...

The body is simply too small to be ergonomically sounded.

Click to expand...

I'm not convinced that's the case. It might require a bit of thinking outside the box about how the controls work, but I don't think that's undoable.

Click to expand...

The controls we have on most mid to top end bodies (twin dials, multiple customizable buttons) is the best and most adopted control for pros and serious enthusiasts.

There isn't really any other/better way to do things effectively and efficiently.

Click to expand...

Dennis1972 said:

Dennis1972 said:

Dennis1972 said:

Putting top specs (20mp, pdaf etc) without all the dials and customizable buttons (due to lack of space) is useless and won't sell..

Click to expand...

See the above. There have been plenty of small cameras which are eminently usable in the past.

Click to expand...

Useable is passable for amateur. Far from what serious enthusiasts and pros prefer.

Click to expand...

Dennis1972 said:

Dennis1972 said:

The idea that it must be big to be usable is part of the whole 'small is low-end' myth, or at least post-rationalising it.

Dennis1972 said:

Small body is mainly targeted at women (at least that's how the Japanese sees it) who wants a camera simple and automatic everything.

Click to expand...

If you're right then I think that's a big marketing mistake.

Click to expand...

Not really. Moat advanced users prefer bigger body with better ergonomics period.

Click to expand...

Dennis1972 said:

Dennis1972 said:

Dennis1972 said:

I believe most enthusiast want and prefer a bigger body (think em5).

Click to expand...

Most enthusiasts have plenty pf big bodies to choose from, if that's what they want. Many of those bug bodies use the bigness to deliver things that mFT can't.

Click to expand...

Well the big bodies you referring to are em5 and em1 when compared to GM sized camera.

They are still all m43.

Click to expand...

Dennis1972 said:

Dennis1972 said:

This is about finding niches - even if it doesn't get you 'most' it gets you those that want something different from what 'most' want.

Dennis1972 said:

Small and top specs is highly niched with no money to be made.

Click to expand...

I agree on the highly niched, I disagree on the 'no money to be made'. In any case that's a moot point, because it isn't making money anyway.

Click to expand...

Of course not, with good reasons as stated above.

Click to expand...

Dennis1972 said:

Dennis1972 said:

Dennis1972 said:

I mean if they make a top specc'ed GM sized camera that cost the same if not more than an EM5.3 but still behind in ergonomics who in the right mind will buy that?

Click to expand...

I don't think it should be 'behind in ergonomics', but the general answer is, those for whom having a small camera allows them to do things they can't do with a big camera.

Click to expand...

One has to draw a line what is too small to be ergonomically impacted.

Click to expand...

Dennis1972 said:

Imho em10 is as small as it should ever go before it seriously impact ergonomics. I mean camera is already front heavy and felt uncomfortable with 12-40 mounted...

Click to expand...

Dennis1972 said:

Forcing top specs into a tiny body will run into potential issue such as overheating when recording 4k with high bitrates and criticism such as not enough spacing/too cramp between buttons etc.

Click to expand...

Dennis1972 said:

It's a fail fail scenario and destined to be DOA.

Click to expand...

Boombuia said:

Both Olympus and Panasonic are dragging their feet with their current, respective smaller offerings. Their E-PL10 and GF10 models are very similar to models circa 2014/15 (E-PL7, GF7, respectively)

I understand "small" or "budget" is not where the market money is at the moment, but the fact that those lines of cameras have been running since day 1 would indicate a willingness (i.e, there is money) to keep them alive.

I find I use the GF7 a lot more than my G6 - granted, the G6 offers a lot more controls and much, much, much better handling but - it is a lot easier and less disrupting to have the GF7 with a 15mm f/1.7 always at hand in the living room, always ready for a quick picture to capture the moment (I have a 3yr old boy). Other kids and guests don't seem to mind it. The G6 looks more intimidating and people either look at the camera, go away, or start to pose immediately.

The GF7 makes much more sense when going out as a family, too, coupled with a couple of small primes 15mm f/1.7 or 14mm f/2.5, and 45mm f/1.8. I now complement it with a TZ-200 for outdoors, long reach. I tried bringing the G6 with a 14-140mm, a combination that I used to love carrying around - now I find it cumbersome, I was not taking it to picnics, outings to the playground, etc. (TZ-200 comes with me every time, now. Not the same quality by a distance, but it gets the job done.)

I'm not complaining: I like the GF7 output quality and I think it offers a lot for its price/size but... at some point, I would like to be upgrade it. Surely I'm not the only one.

At some point I'd like to get the "new" 20MP sensor, and perhaps an improved shutter with faster flash sync (GF7 has a 1/50 limit). I realise IBIS in this size is difficult, but the E-PL cameras have something, so perhaps that itself would be an upgrade path.

anybody else is keeping an eye of the these cameras?

Click to expand...

n3eg said:

Boombuia said:

Their E-PL10 and GF10 models are very similar to models circa 2014/15 (E-PL7, GF7, respectively)

Click to expand...

You've seen the specs on the E-PL10? If so, tell us all about it.

n3eg said:

anybody else is keeping an eye of the these cameras?

Click to expand...

A major upgrade would finally get me to sell my E-PL5. Something like 5-axis IBIS might do it.

Click to expand...

Osa25 said:

Boombuia said:

Both Olympus and Panasonic are dragging their feet with their current, respective smaller offerings. Their E-PL10 and GF10 models are very similar to models circa 2014/15 (E-PL7, GF7, respectively)

I understand "small" or "budget" is not where the market money is at the moment, but the fact that those lines of cameras have been running since day 1 would indicate a willingness (i.e, there is money) to keep them alive.

I find I use the GF7 a lot more than my G6 - granted, the G6 offers a lot more controls and much, much, much better handling but - it is a lot easier and less disrupting to have the GF7 with a 15mm f/1.7 always at hand in the living room, always ready for a quick picture to capture the moment (I have a 3yr old boy). Other kids and guests don't seem to mind it. The G6 looks more intimidating and people either look at the camera, go away, or start to pose immediately.

The GF7 makes much more sense when going out as a family, too, coupled with a couple of small primes 15mm f/1.7 or 14mm f/2.5, and 45mm f/1.8. I now complement it with a TZ-200 for outdoors, long reach. I tried bringing the G6 with a 14-140mm, a combination that I used to love carrying around - now I find it cumbersome, I was not taking it to picnics, outings to the playground, etc. (TZ-200 comes with me every time, now. Not the same quality by a distance, but it gets the job done.)

I'm not complaining: I like the GF7 output quality and I think it offers a lot for its price/size but... at some point, I would like to be upgrade it. Surely I'm not the only one.

At some point I'd like to get the "new" 20MP sensor, and perhaps an improved shutter with faster flash sync (GF7 has a 1/50 limit). I realise IBIS in this size is difficult, but the E-PL cameras have something, so perhaps that itself would be an upgrade path.

anybody else is keeping an eye of the these cameras?

Click to expand...

One problem is many camera makers cutting the EVF out of these products. Makes them uninteresting. If I want a selfie for social media I have one in my pocket already with 4G data connection and linked to all my apps.

The industry will need to give new camera owners a real camera experience in order to have something to offer worth buying. Otherwise the sales will keep sliding. And it will gevone a vicious cycle where they keep gutting the product and releasing them less often

Click to expand...

gary0319 said:

Dennis1972 said:

Boombuia said:

Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

DrHook59 said:

Seeing as how Panasonic got burnt by the GM line selling poorly, I suspect that they would be very unwilling to do it again in an era when almost everyone now can have a phone in their pocket with similar IQ (or so the users would like to think). I think the rapidly improving specs of mobile phones coming through nowadays have really put a nail in the coffin of any idea anyone may have of another GM-sized model. I would love to be surprised at some stage, but I just do not think the market share for such a model would make it a financial viability.

Click to expand...

But the GM line was not a very small top-spec model, it was a very small base spec model.

Click to expand...

The body is simply too small to be ergonomically sounded.

Putting top specs (20mp, pdaf etc) without all the dials and customizable buttons (due to lack of space) is useless and won't sell..

Small body is mainly targeted at women (at least that's how the Japanese sees it) who wants a camera simple and automatic everything.

I believe most enthusiast want and prefer a bigger body (think em5).

Small and top specs is highly niched with no money to be made. I mean if they make a top specc'ed GM sized camera that cost the same if not more than an EM5.3 but still behind in ergonomics who in the right mind will buy that?

Click to expand...

Dennis, I think you analysis holds for users with only one camera - but there is a normal scenario where a user has a "large" body with good ergonomics for "serious" photography, another small body for more casual shooting.

Click to expand...

There you said it - for causal shooting.

Causal shooting doesn't require top control. You certainly don't want to pay top dollar for a small top specs body for causal shooting right ?

Maybe you will, but the majority won't, meaning there is no sustainable market for such product.

gary0319 said:

Perhaps Panasonic considers that its GM/GF camera lines are good enough for "casual shooting" and they are right - for now - eventually, the difference in quality will be become too obvious and those users might end up buying from a competitor or something.

Click to expand...

Different in quality? The IQ difference between the original 16mp from em5 6+ years ago is barely noticeable from today's greatest such as G9/EM1X...

Besides causal shooter simply don't care. They are probably shooting jpg only and don't pixel peep...

Click to expand...

Well, I would agree with Boombuia.

"Dennis, I think you analysis holds for users with only one camera - but there is a normal scenario where a user has a "large" body with good ergonomics for "serious" photography, another small body for more casual shooting."

I have my E-M1 II for “serious” work, but still want a fully capable smaller camera for times when either I don’t want to take the larger camera or when I want to carry second body with a different lens.

Sure, the smaller body is great for “casual” times, but to categorize one as a not caring, jpeg-only shooter because a smaller body is sometimes more desirable, is pretty demeaning, I think.

Click to expand...

Photo Pete said:

gary0319 said:

Dennis1972 said:

Boombuia said:

Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

DrHook59 said:

Seeing as how Panasonic got burnt by the GM line selling poorly, I suspect that they would be very unwilling to do it again in an era when almost everyone now can have a phone in their pocket with similar IQ (or so the users would like to think). I think the rapidly improving specs of mobile phones coming through nowadays have really put a nail in the coffin of any idea anyone may have of another GM-sized model. I would love to be surprised at some stage, but I just do not think the market share for such a model would make it a financial viability.

Click to expand...

But the GM line was not a very small top-spec model, it was a very small base spec model.

Click to expand...

The body is simply too small to be ergonomically sounded.

Putting top specs (20mp, pdaf etc) without all the dials and customizable buttons (due to lack of space) is useless and won't sell..

Small body is mainly targeted at women (at least that's how the Japanese sees it) who wants a camera simple and automatic everything.

I believe most enthusiast want and prefer a bigger body (think em5).

Small and top specs is highly niched with no money to be made. I mean if they make a top specc'ed GM sized camera that cost the same if not more than an EM5.3 but still behind in ergonomics who in the right mind will buy that?

Click to expand...

Dennis, I think you analysis holds for users with only one camera - but there is a normal scenario where a user has a "large" body with good ergonomics for "serious" photography, another small body for more casual shooting.

Click to expand...

There you said it - for causal shooting.

Causal shooting doesn't require top control. You certainly don't want to pay top dollar for a small top specs body for causal shooting right ?

Maybe you will, but the majority won't, meaning there is no sustainable market for such product.

Photo Pete said:

Perhaps Panasonic considers that its GM/GF camera lines are good enough for "casual shooting" and they are right - for now - eventually, the difference in quality will be become too obvious and those users might end up buying from a competitor or something.

Click to expand...

Different in quality? The IQ difference between the original 16mp from em5 6+ years ago is barely noticeable from today's greatest such as G9/EM1X...

Besides causal shooter simply don't care. They are probably shooting jpg only and don't pixel peep...

Click to expand...

Well, I would agree with Boombuia.

"Dennis, I think you analysis holds for users with only one camera - but there is a normal scenario where a user has a "large" body with good ergonomics for "serious" photography, another small body for more casual shooting."

I have my E-M1 II for “serious” work, but still want a fully capable smaller camera for times when either I don’t want to take the larger camera or when I want to carry second body with a different lens.

Sure, the smaller body is great for “casual” times, but to categorize one as a not caring, jpeg-only shooter because a smaller body is sometimes more desirable, is pretty demeaning, I think.

Click to expand...

Odd. I thought that now FF mirrorless bodies were getting smaller the argument in favour of m4/3 was about the lens size.

Click to expand...

Boombuia said:

Osa25 said:

Boombuia said:

Both Olympus and Panasonic are dragging their feet with their current, respective smaller offerings. Their E-PL10 and GF10 models are very similar to models circa 2014/15 (E-PL7, GF7, respectively)

I understand "small" or "budget" is not where the market money is at the moment, but the fact that those lines of cameras have been running since day 1 would indicate a willingness (i.e, there is money) to keep them alive.

I find I use the GF7 a lot more than my G6 - granted, the G6 offers a lot more controls and much, much, much better handling but - it is a lot easier and less disrupting to have the GF7 with a 15mm f/1.7 always at hand in the living room, always ready for a quick picture to capture the moment (I have a 3yr old boy). Other kids and guests don't seem to mind it. The G6 looks more intimidating and people either look at the camera, go away, or start to pose immediately.

The GF7 makes much more sense when going out as a family, too, coupled with a couple of small primes 15mm f/1.7 or 14mm f/2.5, and 45mm f/1.8. I now complement it with a TZ-200 for outdoors, long reach. I tried bringing the G6 with a 14-140mm, a combination that I used to love carrying around - now I find it cumbersome, I was not taking it to picnics, outings to the playground, etc. (TZ-200 comes with me every time, now. Not the same quality by a distance, but it gets the job done.)

I'm not complaining: I like the GF7 output quality and I think it offers a lot for its price/size but... at some point, I would like to be upgrade it. Surely I'm not the only one.

At some point I'd like to get the "new" 20MP sensor, and perhaps an improved shutter with faster flash sync (GF7 has a 1/50 limit). I realise IBIS in this size is difficult, but the E-PL cameras have something, so perhaps that itself would be an upgrade path.

anybody else is keeping an eye of the these cameras?

Click to expand...

One problem is many camera makers cutting the EVF out of these products. Makes them uninteresting. If I want a selfie for social media I have one in my pocket already with 4G data connection and linked to all my apps.

The industry will need to give new camera owners a real camera experience in order to have something to offer worth buying. Otherwise the sales will keep sliding. And it will gevone a vicious cycle where they keep gutting the product and releasing them less often

Click to expand...

Yes, the fraction of users who need to always have an EVF are not included in the GF line, but they did get their wish in the GM5 - it is a cracking camera and despite what most people say, I believe Panasonic did not lose any money with them (but we don't know their sales or their projection, either). And (my guess is) eventually they will update it.

On the other hand, not having an EVF is not a deal breaker for everybody - for my intended uses, the back screen is great and all I need and want in a small camera.

Click to expand...

Osa25 said:

Boombuia said:

Osa25 said:

Boombuia said:

Both Olympus and Panasonic are dragging their feet with their current, respective smaller offerings. Their E-PL10 and GF10 models are very similar to models circa 2014/15 (E-PL7, GF7, respectively)

I understand "small" or "budget" is not where the market money is at the moment, but the fact that those lines of cameras have been running since day 1 would indicate a willingness (i.e, there is money) to keep them alive.

I find I use the GF7 a lot more than my G6 - granted, the G6 offers a lot more controls and much, much, much better handling but - it is a lot easier and less disrupting to have the GF7 with a 15mm f/1.7 always at hand in the living room, always ready for a quick picture to capture the moment (I have a 3yr old boy). Other kids and guests don't seem to mind it. The G6 looks more intimidating and people either look at the camera, go away, or start to pose immediately.

The GF7 makes much more sense when going out as a family, too, coupled with a couple of small primes 15mm f/1.7 or 14mm f/2.5, and 45mm f/1.8. I now complement it with a TZ-200 for outdoors, long reach. I tried bringing the G6 with a 14-140mm, a combination that I used to love carrying around - now I find it cumbersome, I was not taking it to picnics, outings to the playground, etc. (TZ-200 comes with me every time, now. Not the same quality by a distance, but it gets the job done.)

I'm not complaining: I like the GF7 output quality and I think it offers a lot for its price/size but... at some point, I would like to be upgrade it. Surely I'm not the only one.

At some point I'd like to get the "new" 20MP sensor, and perhaps an improved shutter with faster flash sync (GF7 has a 1/50 limit). I realise IBIS in this size is difficult, but the E-PL cameras have something, so perhaps that itself would be an upgrade path.

anybody else is keeping an eye of the these cameras?

Click to expand...

One problem is many camera makers cutting the EVF out of these products. Makes them uninteresting. If I want a selfie for social media I have one in my pocket already with 4G data connection and linked to all my apps.

The industry will need to give new camera owners a real camera experience in order to have something to offer worth buying. Otherwise the sales will keep sliding. And it will gevone a vicious cycle where they keep gutting the product and releasing them less often

Click to expand...

Yes, the fraction of users who need to always have an EVF are not included in the GF line, but they did get their wish in the GM5 - it is a cracking camera and despite what most people say, I believe Panasonic did not lose any money with them (but we don't know their sales or their projection, either). And (my guess is) eventually they will update it.

On the other hand, not having an EVF is not a deal breaker for everybody - for my intended uses, the back screen is great and all I need and want in a small camera.

Click to expand...

The majority of consumers now already have camera Good enough for their primary publishing medium though. My question is what’s the upgrade in an EVF-less camera? These products will vanish if there’s little better change in camera experience to incent a purchase.

Click to expand...

Photo Pete said:

gary0319 said:

Dennis1972 said:

Boombuia said:

Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

DrHook59 said:

Seeing as how Panasonic got burnt by the GM line selling poorly, I suspect that they would be very unwilling to do it again in an era when almost everyone now can have a phone in their pocket with similar IQ (or so the users would like to think). I think the rapidly improving specs of mobile phones coming through nowadays have really put a nail in the coffin of any idea anyone may have of another GM-sized model. I would love to be surprised at some stage, but I just do not think the market share for such a model would make it a financial viability.

Click to expand...

But the GM line was not a very small top-spec model, it was a very small base spec model.

Click to expand...

The body is simply too small to be ergonomically sounded.

Putting top specs (20mp, pdaf etc) without all the dials and customizable buttons (due to lack of space) is useless and won't sell..

Small body is mainly targeted at women (at least that's how the Japanese sees it) who wants a camera simple and automatic everything.

I believe most enthusiast want and prefer a bigger body (think em5).

Small and top specs is highly niched with no money to be made. I mean if they make a top specc'ed GM sized camera that cost the same if not more than an EM5.3 but still behind in ergonomics who in the right mind will buy that?

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Dennis, I think you analysis holds for users with only one camera - but there is a normal scenario where a user has a "large" body with good ergonomics for "serious" photography, another small body for more casual shooting.

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There you said it - for causal shooting.

Causal shooting doesn't require top control. You certainly don't want to pay top dollar for a small top specs body for causal shooting right ?

Maybe you will, but the majority won't, meaning there is no sustainable market for such product.

Photo Pete said:

Perhaps Panasonic considers that its GM/GF camera lines are good enough for "casual shooting" and they are right - for now - eventually, the difference in quality will be become too obvious and those users might end up buying from a competitor or something.

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Different in quality? The IQ difference between the original 16mp from em5 6+ years ago is barely noticeable from today's greatest such as G9/EM1X...

Besides causal shooter simply don't care. They are probably shooting jpg only and don't pixel peep...

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Well, I would agree with Boombuia.

"Dennis, I think you analysis holds for users with only one camera - but there is a normal scenario where a user has a "large" body with good ergonomics for "serious" photography, another small body for more casual shooting."

I have my E-M1 II for “serious” work, but still want a fully capable smaller camera for times when either I don’t want to take the larger camera or when I want to carry second body with a different lens.

Sure, the smaller body is great for “casual” times, but to categorize one as a not caring, jpeg-only shooter because a smaller body is sometimes more desirable, is pretty demeaning, I think.

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Odd. I thought that now FF mirrorless bodies were getting smaller the argument in favour of m4/3 was about the lens size.

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bobn2 said:

Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

DrHook59 said:

Seeing as how Panasonic got burnt by the GM line selling poorly, I suspect that they would be very unwilling to do it again in an era when almost everyone now can have a phone in their pocket with similar IQ (or so the users would like to think). I think the rapidly improving specs of mobile phones coming through nowadays have really put a nail in the coffin of any idea anyone may have of another GM-sized model. I would love to be surprised at some stage, but I just do not think the market share for such a model would make it a financial viability.

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But the GM line was not a very small top-spec model, it was a very small base spec model.

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The body is simply too small to be ergonomically sounded.

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I'm not convinced that's the case. It might require a bit of thinking outside the box about how the controls work, but I don't think that's undoable.

bobn2 said:

Putting top specs (20mp, pdaf etc) without all the dials and customizable buttons (due to lack of space) is useless and won't sell..

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See the above. There have been plenty of small cameras which are eminently usable in the past. The idea that it must be big to be usable is part of the whole 'small is low-end' myth, or at least post-rationalising it.

bobn2 said:

Small body is mainly targeted at women (at least that's how the Japanese sees it) who wants a camera simple and automatic everything.

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If you're right then I think that's a big marketing mistake.

bobn2 said:

I believe most enthusiast want and prefer a bigger body (think em5).

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Most enthusiasts have plenty pf big bodies to choose from, if that's what they want. Many of those bug bodies use the bigness to deliver things that mFT can't. This is about finding niches - even if it doesn't get you 'most' it gets you those that want something different from what 'most' want.

bobn2 said:

Small and top specs is highly niched with no money to be made.

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I agree on the highly niched, I disagree on the 'no money to be made'. In any case that's a moot point, because it isn't making money anyway.

bobn2 said:

I mean if they make a top specc'ed GM sized camera that cost the same if not more than an EM5.3 but still behind in ergonomics who in the right mind will buy that?

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I don't think it should be 'behind in ergonomics', but the general answer is, those for whom having a small camera allows them to do things they can't do with a big camera.

bobn2 said:

bobn2 said:

You maybe right about how Panasonic sees it, but it's a clear example of what I was warning about, mixing up small and low-spec.

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jonas ar said:

bobn2 said:

jonas ar said:

jonas ar said:

You maybe right about how Panasonic sees it, but it's a clear example of what I was warning about, mixing up small and low-spec.

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Sony appears to be thriving in the small and top spec’ed niche

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Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

DrHook59 said:

Seeing as how Panasonic got burnt by the GM line selling poorly, I suspect that they would be very unwilling to do it again in an era when almost everyone now can have a phone in their pocket with similar IQ (or so the users would like to think). I think the rapidly improving specs of mobile phones coming through nowadays have really put a nail in the coffin of any idea anyone may have of another GM-sized model. I would love to be surprised at some stage, but I just do not think the market share for such a model would make it a financial viability.

Click to expand...

But the GM line was not a very small top-spec model, it was a very small base spec model.

Click to expand...

The body is simply too small to be ergonomically sounded.

Click to expand...

I'm not convinced that's the case. It might require a bit of thinking outside the box about how the controls work, but I don't think that's undoable.

Click to expand...

The controls we have on most mid to top end bodies (twin dials, multiple customizable buttons) is the best and most adopted control for pros and serious enthusiasts.

There isn't really any other/better way to do things effectively and efficiently.

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SteveY80 said:

Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

Dennis1972 said:

bobn2 said:

DrHook59 said:

Seeing as how Panasonic got burnt by the GM line selling poorly, I suspect that they would be very unwilling to do it again in an era when almost everyone now can have a phone in their pocket with similar IQ (or so the users would like to think). I think the rapidly improving specs of mobile phones coming through nowadays have really put a nail in the coffin of any idea anyone may have of another GM-sized model. I would love to be surprised at some stage, but I just do not think the market share for such a model would make it a financial viability.

Click to expand...

But the GM line was not a very small top-spec model, it was a very small base spec model.

Click to expand...

The body is simply too small to be ergonomically sounded.

Click to expand...

I'm not convinced that's the case. It might require a bit of thinking outside the box about how the controls work, but I don't think that's undoable.

Click to expand...

The controls we have on most mid to top end bodies (twin dials, multiple customizable buttons) is the best and most adopted control for pros and serious enthusiasts.

There isn't really any other/better way to do things effectively and efficiently.

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There are probably always going to be ergonomic limitations when it comes to small camera bodies, but Panasonic's offerings have a lot of room for improvement.

The Nikon 1 series had their own flaws and limitations, but even the lower end 'J' cameras managed to fit on two controls, making manual mode more practical. The final camera in the range (the J5) had surprisingly good ergonomics, despite being about the same size as a GM5.

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