What price (in noise) for higher shutter speed?

I’ve ordered a 300D which I’ll be using mainly for wildlife, with Canon 80-200 F2.8 and Canon 300 F4, neither of which is image stabilised. As the 300mm will now be equivalent to a 480mm F4, I’ll need to shoot at minimum 1/500 or preferably 1/1000 (from vehicle, no tripod) to avoid camera shake.

Reviews of the camera suggest there’s minimal noise, even at 800 ISO. Am I correct in assuming it would be better to opt for this higher ISO rating to ensure faster shutter speeds than going for a lower ISO, with possibly less noise, but more chance of camera shake? Any advice appreciated.
thanks, Scotch

the noise is not always apparent, but it will show more in blue sky. and it will show more if your photo is underexposed. This is a crop from the full size, untouched:

One sample with sky

http://www.pbase.com/image/22152657

one sample without blue sky:

http://www.pbase.com/image/22152782

another crop with more sky but not so deep blue...it does not look so noisy at all:

http://www.pbase.com/image/22152954

this is ISO 400 and not 800, but ISO 800 is just slithtly more noise. very much usable, but I am guessing that you will not need ISO 800 often with a F4 lens....

scotch196 said:

I’ve ordered a 300D which I’ll be using mainly for
wildlife, with Canon 80-200 F2.8 and Canon 300 F4, neither of which
is image stabilised. As the 300mm will now be equivalent to a 480mm
F4, I’ll need to shoot at minimum 1/500 or preferably 1/1000
(from vehicle, no tripod) to avoid camera shake.

Reviews of the camera suggest there’s minimal noise, even at
800 ISO. Am I correct in assuming it would be better to opt for
this higher ISO rating to ensure faster shutter speeds than going
for a lower ISO, with possibly less noise, but more chance of
camera shake? Any advice appreciated.
thanks, Scotch

Click to expand...

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c7OOuz, Dimage-7, Tcon14tele, C210tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND, Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya_R_72.

yep you will most likely need to go higher iso, you are using a fast shutter speed & zoom both cuts down on light...depends how sunny it is on how high you take the iso up,probably 400-800

scotch196 said:

I’ve ordered a 300D which I’ll be using mainly for
wildlife, with Canon 80-200 F2.8 and Canon 300 F4, neither of which
is image stabilised. As the 300mm will now be equivalent to a 480mm
F4, I’ll need to shoot at minimum 1/500 or preferably 1/1000
(from vehicle, no tripod) to avoid camera shake.

Click to expand...

There is a FOV multiplier, not focal length multiplier. Thus you don't need to use shorter shutter speed. You need same shutter speed as with 300mm lens.

I know that is a big zoom. I have a Canon 75-300 (non IS) myself and tested it handheld at the zoo (see link below).

Although I'd like 1/500 as shutter speed had some success at much lower speeds.

If the care is moving I get your point, but if its stopped then why rest the camera or barrel of lens on the door or half opened window., rest the barrel of the lens on the window to stabilize your shot. If your more serious about it you could get a clamp based system with ball head.

Here is link to my zoo test shoot and a few photos below

http://homepage.mac.com/inertia_visual_media/photos/d300/75-300-zootest/index.htm



1/200 F5.6 iso400 at 300mm



1/100 F5 iso200 at 230mm



1/250 F5.6 iso200 at 300mm



1/320 F6.3 iso1600 at 200mm

--
David Goldwasser
http://www.inertia-llc.com

As I understand it these multipliers are just rules of thumb but the general concept has to do the stability of how well you can hold the camera, the effective magnification power of the lens (which will effectively amplify your movements) and a third factor is the detail threshold of the camera (maybe combination of sensor resolution and quality as well as optics).

If your only using a 1mp camera there can be some blur that would be lost due to the limits of the camera. If however lets say you have a 30mp camera and optics to match that quality, and you really intend to print it at a size that will make use of all of that detail then you would have a much higher speed threshold than you do now.

So scotch196 is right to assume that with his film slr he can hold a 300mm steady to his satisfaction at a given shutter speed, that he should multiply take into account the multiplier factor for the 300d and use a faster shutter speed.

Alex. B said:

scotch196 said:

I’ve ordered a 300D which I’ll be using mainly for
wildlife, with Canon 80-200 F2.8 and Canon 300 F4, neither of which
is image stabilised. As the 300mm will now be equivalent to a 480mm
F4, I’ll need to shoot at minimum 1/500 or preferably 1/1000
(from vehicle, no tripod) to avoid camera shake.

Click to expand...

There is a FOV multiplier, not focal length multiplier. Thus you
don't need to use shorter shutter speed. You need same shutter
speed as with 300mm lens.

Click to expand...

--
David Goldwasser
http://www.inertia-llc.com

When I said "multipliers are rules of thumb" I meant the multipliers for what shutter speed you should use with what lens.

The 1.6 multiplier of the d300 sensor is of course just a given fact.

--
David Goldwasser
http://www.inertia-llc.com

Scotch,

scotch196 said:

Reviews of the camera suggest there’s minimal noise, even at
800 ISO. Am I correct in assuming it would be better to opt for
this higher ISO rating to ensure faster shutter speeds than going
for a lower ISO, with possibly less noise, but more chance of
camera shake? Any advice appreciated.

Click to expand...

Of course the tradeoffs between different imperfections (image noise, blurring from camera shake, etc.) have to be assessed in the light of what sort of image, what shpoting situation, and what use will be made of the result (before what audience!).

The 300D exhibits quite amazingly low image noise at sensitivities up through ISO 1600. And of course, to the viewer, the noise is more noticeable in a shot with large areas of fairly-uniform color (sky being the classical model).

In most of my work, I opt for the sharper picture even at the expense of a little more noise - that is. I freely boost the ISO setting on the fly!

We also have partaken of another compromize with regard to long focal length: we bought the Canon 73-300 image stabilization lens. This of course greatly amerliorates the matter of blur due to camera shake, but at a price: it looks as if that lens may not have the "sharpness" of even its corresponding non-IS brother.

The great thing about your dilemma is that you have the freedom to learn how to make the tradeoff for each different situation. But, in the meantime, if your main cincertn is to get a nice sharp shot of that lion at a zillion paces, you are probably safest to go for the higher sensitivity.

Regards,

Doug

Alex,

"My dog is six years old today. How much is that in dog years?"

"Six."

With respect to the matter of camera movement and the resulting blur, the parameter of interest is the field of view of the lens on the camera in use.

The field of view with a 300 mm lens on a 300D is the same as that for a 480 mm lens on a 35 mm full-frame camera. So the FOV multiplier is (in that sense) a focal length multiplier. (The terms doesn't mean anythng, of course, wiothout a definition of its application.)

Thus, any focall-length based rules of thumb for shutter speed to ameliorate blurring due to camera shake, developed under 35 mm film photography, however relevent they might or might not be, should be applied based on the "35 mm equivalent" focal length of the lens in use.

Doug

Alex. B said:

There is a FOV multiplier, not focal length multiplier. Thus you
don't need to use shorter shutter speed. You need same shutter
speed as with 300mm lens.

Click to expand...

Alex. B said:

There is a FOV multiplier, not focal length multiplier. Thus you
don't need to use shorter shutter speed. You need same shutter
speed as with 300mm lens.

Click to expand...

Actually it is neither of those...it is a FOV crop...so you have to enlarge the image more than a full frame camera to get the same size print. The extra enlargement makes any camera shake more visible.

So an effective 480mm on our 300D (ie 300mm lens) will show more shake than even a true 480mm on a full frame camera (ie for a 6x4" print the full frame needs to enlarge 4.4x while the 300D needs to approximately 7X).