nikon tc 17e ii + nikon 300mm f4 pf, wildlife and bird photography..viable or disaster??

Thank you so much for your response. The 300mm pf seems to work with TC-17 e ii quite well, which puts me in a doubt which one to buy finally. Have you any images you want to share with the TC-17? Kindly share them. Please.

debh84 said:

Thank you so much for your response. The 300mm pf seems to work with TC-17 e ii quite well, which puts me in a doubt which one to buy finally. Have you any images you want to share with the TC-17? Kindly share them. Please.

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To be clear, we have “pre-PF” 300mm f/4D AF-S lenses.

I doubt that I saved the test shots I did, with a D500 + TC-E17E II. I can shoot a few more, with the pre-PF AF-S 300/4D + TC-E17 II, with my D850, in DX crop mode, which would be similar to your D500.

Most of my TC images have been shot with cameras other than a D500. I did not have “my” D500 very long, before she claimed it, to be her second D500. (Actually, I had offered it to her, anyway, at the time I bought it, as I mostly wanted top experiment with the newest-generation Nikon AF, to help me decide whether my D3s* needed upgrading. Hurricane Harvey had drowned both of her D7000 cameras, and we had, at that time, only replaced one of them with a D500.)

*This is not a case of the wife getting lesser or handed-down gear; she simply does not like D3/4/5 bulk and weight. Not long after this, we bought my D5, and then her D850. Some time later, we added my D850, her P1000, and her Z6. She is a quite serious photographer, the mentor who guided my start in SLR shooting.

--
By accident of availability, I learned to use Canon and Nikon DSLRs at the same time. I love specific lenses made by both Canon and Nikon, too much to quit either system. Dabbling with Leica-M is fun, too. I am, certainly, not an expert.

debh84 said:

hi everyone, I am a regular visitor of this site and want to ask a question..I searched this site and others to find an answer to my question, which is the heading by the way..can the nikon 300mm pf be used with the tc 17eii for wildlife and bird photography?? I own a nikon D500 and the very good 200-500mm but find it a bit bulky to carry around when on a long journey or using a public transport..so I was looking for a lighter and probably cheaper solution..now, many of the users here will tell me to get the 500mm pf which I want to get but cannot afford at present..I am an amateur wildlife enthusiast who is looking for good photo opportunities, not expecting NatGeo quality of shots but printable will do..so, I ask you guys to post pics if you have any with this combo..also the pros and cons too..I am specifically interested to see action shots, like birds in flight or low light photos where these are pushed to the limits..I request you all to share your knowledge, experience and thoughts in this regard..any information and pictures will help me make my decision..please contribute..thank you.

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The answer a qualified "yes it can" … but beware that as it becomes an F6.8 lens the AF performance suffers, especially in low light conditions.

I have only owned a copy of the 300mm F4 PF for a few months and, as I also have a number of other telephoto primes and also a very nice copy of the Sigma 150-600 OS Sport zoom, the 300 doesn't get as much use as I had expected ... so far. However very recently I have taken to experimenting with using it with the TC17EII converter with my D850. I have owned that converter for several years and have several times nearly sold it because I didn't find that it worked particularly well with any of my other lenses but held onto it in case I ever decided to get one of Nikon's faster F2.8 primes that supposedly take this converter well. It turns out that the 300mm F4 PF takes the 1.7 converter very well. I have to add a caveat to that: provided you have a good copy of the 1.7. The first copy I ever had of the TC17EII was very poor (it was a pre-owned copy which I bought on approval and returned to the dealer). Another copy owned by another photographer I know was "night and day" better. The current copy I own I considered OK but never great - however since getting this 300mm PF I am now thinking it is quite a good copy.

If you set the 300mm PF "focus limiter" switch to 3m to infinity the lens will zip to focus quite snappily and accurately even with the 1.7 attached. The VR continues to work well with the 1,7 converter attached. I am finding that it is capable of very sharp images provided it is stopped down just a little. I have been able to easily get BIF shots with this combo. Optimal compromise for many subjects will be F7.1, F8 or F9 although I have not tested this. Wide open at F6.7 is usable. Quite usable for distant subjects as well as close-ups.

Never going to quite compete with the my 500m F4 for ultimate optical quality nor especially ultimate reach but it's still a very good tool and I think has a useful role.

The biggest advantage of this lens is the sheer lightness and manoeuvrability. It is a very rapid "quick fire" tool and that is very useful at times. You can turn, lift, accurately point and shoot this lens, as a 500mm F6.8, much faster that any other 500mm that I know of and that will sometimes get a shot that a bigger lens would miss.

The biggest downside is the lack of optical "speed" which especially hits AF performance as mentioned.

That's about it really!

Frank

Frank, its nice that you revived this thread with some wonderful information for the OP.

A really good reply.

Larry

I wanted to mention to the OP that the 300 f4.0 lens and d500 with a tc 1.4EIII equates out to an effective focal length of 630mm which is a good length for birds, especially if your fairly new at this kind of photography. The 1.4EIII will give you a 5.6 aperture and will not slow up the focus rate very much and will provide excellent images if the capture is right.

Larry

larrywilson said:

I wanted to mention to the OP that the 300 f4.0 lens and d500 with a tc 1.4EIII equates out to an effective focal length of 630mm which is a good length for birds, especially if your fairly new at this kind of photography. The 1.4EIII will give you a 5.6 aperture and will not slow up the focus rate very much and will provide excellent images if the capture is right.

Larry

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Larry - thanks for the endorsement of my post and your mention of the TC14EIII which I have noted many others have also said works very well and even better than the MkII with the 300mm F4 PF. I have the older TC14EII which also seems to work quite well - but I'd say the combo needs stopping down slightly to deliver best quality. So I'd still be using the combo probably mainly at F7.1 or F8 which limits usefulness.

The thing is that mainly I photograph birds in the UK - and that means most of the time I use my 500mm F4 with at least a 1,4 converter (and sometimes a 2x) attached ie 700mm or 1000mm. My Sigma 500mm F4 + TC1401 converter delivers real quality even wide open at F5.6. Sometimes I want even more reach, So 420mm (300mm + TC14) often isn't really enough. So pushing the 300mm PF with the 1.7 converter is interesting.

Perhaps I should also try a Mk III TC14 if it is so much better as some claim but it seems an expensive outlay for what would be a very marginal use for what I do. Do you find with this converter that you can get genuinely excellent quality wide open i.e. at F5.6 ???

Frank

debh84 said:

hi everyone, I am a regular visitor of this site and want to ask a question..I searched this site and others to find an answer to my question, which is the heading by the way..can the nikon 300mm pf be used with the tc 17eii for wildlife and bird photography?? I own a nikon D500 and the very good 200-500mm but find it a bit bulky to carry around when on a long journey or using a public transport..so I was looking for a lighter and probably cheaper solution..now, many of the users here will tell me to get the 500mm pf which I want to get but cannot afford at present..I am an amateur wildlife enthusiast who is looking for good photo opportunities, not expecting NatGeo quality of shots but printable will do..so, I ask you guys to post pics if you have any with this combo..also the pros and cons too..I am specifically interested to see action shots, like birds in flight or low light photos where these are pushed to the limits..I request you all to share your knowledge, experience and thoughts in this regard..any information and pictures will help me make my decision..please contribute..thank you.

Click to expand...

First and foremost, you might find the 300PF a bit disappointing compared to your 200-500, especially if you're shooting distant or small subjects and cropping heavily.

Now that's out of the way, there's no doubt that the 300PF is very good, one of Nikon's best and most unique lenses. If you want a small light telephoto lens this is one of the very best options available.

I would be somewhat hesitant to use it with even a 1.4x TC, let alone a 1.7x. The D500 (I'm assuming that's what you're using) is already a pretty sharp/highly resolving sensor and putting a TC on any lens is always a trade-off. Yes you will get more magnification (as in, the image gets larger), but this does not always mean more detail or better images. Whenever I used the TC14-III I always felt it reduced sharpness and contrast and increased CA, which makes your images look worse, especially when you're cropping in. The 300PF is sharpest stopped down to f/5.6, so with a 1.4x TC that means you will have to be at f/8 for best results. Your AF speed will also be reduced. With the 1.7x it's even worse as your wide open/focusing aperture will be above f/5.6. Only the center AF point or a few points around the center will work - a bit of a shame when you're sporting a D500 with 153 AF point covering the full width of the sensor.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't assume that a TC is a silver bullet which turns your 300mm lens into a 450 or 510mm lens. But, at the end of the day it will get you somewhat close to what the 200-500 can do in a much smaller package. I would just try to appreciate the merits of the "bare lens" 300PF than try to replicate the 200-500 @ 500mm, because imo that will just lead to disappointment.

The strength of the 300PF is when you can get close (and it helps you get close by being so small and easy to handle).

Source - I used to shoot the 200-500 regularly, my partner shoots the 300PF. I've used her lens many times, and while it's excellent for what it is, I always went back to the 200-500. We also tried the TC14EIII and both agreed that it wasn't worth the hassle on either lens.

Hi Frank, thank you for sharing your experience. Looks like I have to be careful about choosing the TC-17 itself as it shows individual variations. I am looking into the 300f4 pf because of it's compactness . The big 200-500mm tends to attract a lot of unwanted attention which inturn makes one loose the opportunity to photograph the wildlife. Being small, I think the 300mm will be a discrete lens which will help me to find more photo opportunities. Also, moving in public transport with the big lenses are a real pain.

Yes, thanks to both of you to take your time and go through my query and replying.

Rob Blight said:

debh84 said:

hi everyone, I am a regular visitor of this site and want to ask a question..I searched this site and others to find an answer to my question, which is the heading by the way..can the nikon 300mm pf be used with the tc 17eii for wildlife and bird photography?? I own a nikon D500 and the very good 200-500mm but find it a bit bulky to carry around when on a long journey or using a public transport..so I was looking for a lighter and probably cheaper solution..now, many of the users here will tell me to get the 500mm pf which I want to get but cannot afford at present..I am an amateur wildlife enthusiast who is looking for good photo opportunities, not expecting NatGeo quality of shots but printable will do..so, I ask you guys to post pics if you have any with this combo..also the pros and cons too..I am specifically interested to see action shots, like birds in flight or low light photos where these are pushed to the limits..I request you all to share your knowledge, experience and thoughts in this regard..any information and pictures will help me make my decision..please contribute..thank you.

Click to expand...

First and foremost, you might find the 300PF a bit disappointing compared to your 200-500, especially if you're shooting distant or small subjects and cropping heavily.

Now that's out of the way, there's no doubt that the 300PF is very good, one of Nikon's best and most unique lenses. If you want a small light telephoto lens this is one of the very best options available.

I would be somewhat hesitant to use it with even a 1.4x TC, let alone a 1.7x. The D500 (I'm assuming that's what you're using) is already a pretty sharp/highly resolving sensor and putting a TC on any lens is always a trade-off. Yes you will get more magnification (as in, the image gets larger), but this does not always mean more detail or better images. Whenever I used the TC14-III I always felt it reduced sharpness and contrast and increased CA, which makes your images look worse, especially when you're cropping in. The 300PF is sharpest stopped down to f/5.6, so with a 1.4x TC that means you will have to be at f/8 for best results. Your AF speed will also be reduced. With the 1.7x it's even worse as your wide open/focusing aperture will be above f/5.6. Only the center AF point or a few points around the center will work - a bit of a shame when you're sporting a D500 with 153 AF point covering the full width of the sensor.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't assume that a TC is a silver bullet which turns your 300mm lens into a 450 or 510mm lens. But, at the end of the day it will get you somewhat close to what the 200-500 can do in a much smaller package. I would just try to appreciate the merits of the "bare lens" 300PF than try to replicate the 200-500 @ 500mm, because imo that will just lead to disappointment.

The strength of the 300PF is when you can get close (and it helps you get close by being so small and easy to handle).

Source - I used to shoot the 200-500 regularly, my partner shoots the 300PF. I've used her lens many times, and while it's excellent for what it is, I always went back to the 200-500. We also tried the TC14EIII and both agreed that it wasn't worth the hassle on either lens.

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Thank you for the detailed response. I am using a D500. I am satisfied with the 200-500mm and don't find it much heavy to handhold. It just takes up a lot of space and as I mentioned, warrants unwanted attention. If a smaller package can deliver results close to that, I'll be happy.

Nobody mentioned fine tuning with the tc 1.4EIII attached. A converter can throw off the auto focus accuracy unless fine tuning the camera with the converter and lens attached. The effective focal length with the tc 1.4EIII attached using the d500 and 300mm lens is 630mm which for me is adequate for most bird photography. Anymore than that introduces atmospheric conditions and is harder to locate a bird in the viewfinder and introduces more shake.

Larry

Forget about the second generation TC-17 and buy either the third generation TC-14 III or the TC-20 III teleconverter. With the 300mm lens I would want the TC-20 III.

debh84 said:

Hi Frank, thank you for sharing your experience. Looks like I have to be careful about choosing the TC-17 itself as it shows individual variations. I am looking into the 300f4 pf because of it's compactness . The big 200-500mm tends to attract a lot of unwanted attention which inturn makes one loose the opportunity to photograph the wildlife. Being small, I think the 300mm will be a discrete lens which will help me to find more photo opportunities. Also, moving in public transport with the big lenses are a real pain.

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Just to illustrate, here is an example of what this combo (300 PF + TC17EII) can be capable of:


A local cat, snapped with D850, 300 F4 PF with TC17EII attached = 510mm F6.8, ISO450, cropped

That was processed from the NEF file using Capture NXD with minimal noise reduction, maximum moire reduction, default CA reduction, default sharpening and an extremely light touch of USM (amount 6, radius 5). I think it looks pretty good even at 100% in a browser.

Frank

calson said:

Forget about the second generation TC-17 and buy either the third generation TC-14 III or the TC-20 III teleconverter. With the 300mm lens I would want the TC-20 III.

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Well-said. With the present generation of Nikon DSLRs, able to AF with a 2x TC connected to an f/4 lens, this advice may well be the best advice.

A reason for the original creation of a 1.7x TC would be to make it usable on an f/4 lens, with semi-pro Nikon SLRs of that time period, which could not AF with an f/4 lens on a 2x TC.

A reason for the absence of a third-generation TC-E17 may well be that its reason for existence has largely passed, now that the semi-pro Nikon camera bodies can AF with an f/4 lens mounted on a 2x TC.

calson said:

Forget about the second generation TC-17...

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Just for clarity, there has only been one "generation" of this particular TC - the TC-17E II. There never was a plain TC-17E.

Rexgig0 said:

calson said:

Forget about the second generation TC-17 and buy either the third generation TC-14 III or the TC-20 III teleconverter. With the 300mm lens I would want the TC-20 III.

Click to expand...

Well-said. With the present generation of Nikon DSLRs, able to AF with a 2x TC connected to an f/4 lens, this advice may well be the best advice.

A reason for the original creation of a 1.7x TC would be to make it usable on an f/4 lens, with semi-pro Nikon SLRs of that time period, which could not AF with an f/4 lens on a 2x TC.

A reason for the absence of a third-generation TC-E17 may well be that its reason for existence has largely passed, now that the semi-pro Nikon camera bodies can AF with an f/4 lens mounted on a 2x TC.

Click to expand...

I'd have to disagree.

If you check the manual of, for example the D500 (which the OP uses) in the sub-section "AF-S/AF-I Teleconverters and available focus points" of the main "Focus" section, you will see that a TC-17EII with any F4 lens shows "37 focus points (17 selectable) with 25 cross sensors".

Note that this also applies to the 800mm F5.6 lens with the TC1.25!

Turn the page and refer to the entry for any of the TC-20E converters and it shows "15 focus points (9 selectable) with 5 cross-type sensors". In fact it feels as if there is really only 1useable fast central AF sensor.

Note that's 25 cross sensors with a TC-17EII versus only 5 with a TC20E/EII/EIII. That's a significant difference in AF capability.

Frank

briantilley said:

calson said:

Forget about the second generation TC-17...

Click to expand...

Just for clarity, there has only been one "generation" of this particular TC - the TC-17E II. There never was a plain TC-17E.

Click to expand...

It is worth revisiting the reviews by Nasim on PL of all 3 of these TCs and particularly incremental loss of IQ from TC14 > TC17 > TC2 III that he quantified

https://photographylife.com/image-degradation-with-nikon-teleconverters

https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-tc-20e-iii

My regular use of all 3 of these TCs with 300 f2.8G VRII and 400 f2.8E confirm this. (I also used TC14 II with the 300, but upgraded it for the 300 PF.)

I've read several reviews underscoring that Nikon engineers optimized both of the ver III TCs to give optimal performance with these 2 premium Nikkor primes, respectively. ie TC2 III then TC14 III with the fast 300 followed by 400 FL

Nevertheless, too often many of us are faced with situations in poorer light. TC2 is too slow and TC14 cannot reach - ie 510mm reaches beyond 420mm with the 300 PF. TC17 also has the 1/2 stop to 1 stop advantage. This is mainly IME with the D500 and D850.

For over a year, I've used the PF primes on the Z7 mostly. Admittedly, a Nikon Zed gives us wider tolerances on AF at f8 and slower but here TC17 can still determine ISO 3200 or ISO6400 - again pertinent for the 300 PF

Brad Hill also depends a lot on TCs - not surprising considering the poor light characteristic of the Pacific NW: http://www.naturalart.ca/artist/fieldtests/tc_series3.html

FrankG said:

Rexgig0 said:

calson said:

Forget about the second generation TC-17 and buy either the third generation TC-14 III or the TC-20 III teleconverter. With the 300mm lens I would want the TC-20 III.

Click to expand...

Well-said. With the present generation of Nikon DSLRs, able to AF with a 2x TC connected to an f/4 lens, this advice may well be the best advice.

A reason for the original creation of a 1.7x TC would be to make it usable on an f/4 lens, with semi-pro Nikon SLRs of that time period, which could not AF with an f/4 lens on a 2x TC.

A reason for the absence of a third-generation TC-E17 may well be that its reason for existence has largely passed, now that the semi-pro Nikon camera bodies can AF with an f/4 lens mounted on a 2x TC.

Click to expand...

I'd have to disagree.

If you check the manual of, for example the D500 (which the OP uses) in the sub-section "AF-S/AF-I Teleconverters and available focus points" of the main "Focus" section, you will see that a TC-17EII with any F4 lens shows "37 focus points (17 selectable) with 25 cross sensors".

Note that this also applies to the 800mm F5.6 lens with the TC1.25!

Turn the page and refer to the entry for any of the TC-20E converters and it shows "15 focus points (9 selectable) with 5 cross-type sensors". In fact it feels as if there is really only 1useable fast central AF sensor.

Note that's 25 cross sensors with a TC-17EII versus only 5 with a TC20E/EII/EIII. That's a significant difference in AF capability.

Frank

Click to expand...

+1

well said

2 portraits as I approached his perch, before he jumped down to greet me. Both cropped to 8 x 10. Taken at approx 15m then 10m with 300 PF+TC17 and Z7




15m approx. cropped




10m approx - cropped

chambeshi said:

2 portraits as I approached his perch, before he jumped down to greet me. Both cropped to 8 x 10. Taken at approx 15m then 10m with 300 PF+TC17 and Z7


15m approx. cropped


10m approx - cropped

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Nice and sharp on the eyes. The shot I posted was a similar distance (about 15m).

Frank