Pentax mirrorless should retain K-mount. Here's how it can still be competitive with new mounts.

Luis Fonseca · Oct 24, 2019

Alex Sarbu said:
Mistral75 said:

Alex Sarbu said:

(...)

OTOH, adapters, particularly those to a non-Pentax mount (Leica SL?) are a method of helping people run away ;-)

Alex

Click to expand...

That would only be the case if the hypothetical L-mount Pentax cameras were vastly inferior to their Leica, Panasonic and Sigma counterparts. Why should they?

Click to expand...

Run away from the K-mount, I mean. But once you open the door, there's no telling where people would be going. "It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of the door" ;-)

You make a good point here about opening a door but remember that hadn't Frodo opened the door and Sauron would have ruled them all.

Alex Sarbu said:
Whatever they'd do, hurting the K-mount would be too disastrous to be compensated by a mirrorless line and an adapter.

We don't really know that, do we? It all depends on where does the money from Ricoh's camera business comes from.

With a good adapter to L-mount the K-mount lenses would retain their value while opening a new market for the unique FA limiteds.

I have no doubt that I would get a Pentax mirroless with L-mount and a K-mount adapter (with motor to drive AF on FA lenses) as soon as they'd be available.

Luis

Ari Aikomus · Oct 24, 2019

Roland Karlsson said:
This has already been proposed in multiple threads by multiple people, me included.

And the most popular/common solution is making a mirrorless camera with a dedicated adapter. The adapter so made that all functionality from the current K-mount is supported by the adapter.

Yes, but full support require in-adapter AF focus motor and even mechanical aperture lever...Just KAF4 system support only is easier to implement, but how many KAF4 lenses exist?

Roland Karlsson said:
And note, this is not the same thing as buying a Sony camera. The adapters made for PK lenses on Sony are totally crap. Manual everything.

Well, manual yes, but not all adapters are crap. There are also good quality adapters - for example: Pentax K - Sony

Anyway, altogether, I think Pentax /Ricoh should join the "L-mount " camp, what comes to mirrorless. Then some kind of K-mount support must try to implement with adapter, as well as possible.

regards,

Ari

Luis Fonseca · Oct 24, 2019

Lightright said:
Pontoneer said:

I am quite happy with the size of the K-01 ,(...)

Click to expand...

Pentax K-01 have already demonstrated that the K mount is still capable to deliver that mirrorless experience.

The K-01 was a DSLR without mirror and without pentaprism. Just like a K-5 on LV. Not the best mirrorless experience

Lightright said:
Ricoh could just branch out from this and iterate another release with on sensor PDAF and EVF in order to take full advantage the mirrorless potential - overall better AF system with advanced tracking capability (especially eye AF) and even silent shooting in the future.

A sensor with PDAF could solve the AF "problems" of the K-01.

Lightright said:
Size is not an issue at all - no need to look further on Panasonic's approach to mirrorless which is as bulky as Nikon's FF dslr itself.

There's no reason to follow Panasonic on size. Just look at the Sigma fp. "Just" add a flash mount, a viewfinder and Pentax's SR and it's good to go.

Lightright said:
Ricoh also have new lenses that have faster and quieter dc motors that are not any more expensive than it's screw drive counterparts.

But the longer flange distance makes it harder to design compact wide angle lenses.

Luis

Roland Karlsson · Oct 24, 2019

Lightright said:
Pentax K-01 have already demonstrated that the K mount is still capable to deliver that mirrorless experience. Ricoh could just branch out from this and iterate another release with on sensor PDAF and EVF in order to take full advantage the mirrorless potential - overall better AF system with advanced tracking capability (especially eye AF) and even silent shooting in the future. Size is not an issue at all - no need to look further on Panasonic's approach to mirrorless which is as bulky as Nikon's FF dslr itself. Ricoh also have new lenses that have faster and quieter dc motors that are not any more expensive than it's screw drive counterparts.

Yes, and no.

K01, even though I kind of like it, is not really a competitive camera, and therefore prove nothing. It is bulky and slow and has no EVF.

Personally I believe that it would be perfectly possible for Pentax to make K02, K01 done right, as a slimmer camera something like you describe. It would take some development effort though and might not be a success, i.e. not worth it. Just taking resources and money from the main path.

But, if the K02 is a success, then it would be very nice.

But, I do not believe in a mirrorless system based upon K-mount. And even more, a mirrorless only system. It will not be competitive.

--
/Roland
Kalpanika X3F tools:

GitHub - Kalpanika/x3f: Tools for manipulating X3F files from Sigma cameras

Tools for manipulating X3F files from Sigma cameras - Kalpanika/x3f

github.com

Roland Karlsson · Oct 24, 2019

Ari Aikomus said:
Roland Karlsson said:

This has already been proposed in multiple threads by multiple people, me included.

And the most popular/common solution is making a mirrorless camera with a dedicated adapter. The adapter so made that all functionality from the current K-mount is supported by the adapter.

Click to expand...

Yes, but full support require in-adapter AF focus motor and even mechanical aperture lever...Just KAF4 system support only is easier to implement, but how many KAF4 lenses exist?

Yes, of course. And it is a matter of priority how much the mirrorless mount shall HELP the adapter.

Ari Aikomus said:
Ari Aikomus said:

And note, this is not the same thing as buying a Sony camera. The adapters made for PK lenses on Sony are totally crap. Manual everything.

Click to expand...

Well, manual yes, but not all adapters are crap. There are also good quality adapters - for example: Pentax K - Sony

Maybe that adapter is mechanically superb. But it lacks all usability functions. At least I would never consider using it. I would consider it crap.

Ari Aikomus said:
Anyway, altogether, I think Pentax /Ricoh should join the "L-mount " camp, what comes to mirrorless. Then some kind of K-mount support must try to implement with adapter, as well as possible.

That seems to be some kind of near consensus among those wanting a mirrorless Pentax. Pentax needs to be a bit careful though. Maybe that fantastic adapter is the only thing Pentax will sell. Then Panasonic and Leica users can use second hand Pentax lenses. Or Maybe the Pentax body using Panasonic lenses. It might be an economic catastrophe.

Alex Sarbu · Oct 24, 2019

Luis Fonseca said:
Alex Sarbu said:

Mistral75 said:

Alex Sarbu said:

(...)

OTOH, adapters, particularly those to a non-Pentax mount (Leica SL?) are a method of helping people run away ;-)

Alex

Click to expand...

That would only be the case if the hypothetical L-mount Pentax cameras were vastly inferior to their Leica, Panasonic and Sigma counterparts. Why should they?

Click to expand...

Run away from the K-mount, I mean. But once you open the door, there's no telling where people would be going. "It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of the door" ;-)

Click to expand...

You make a good point here about opening a door but remember that hadn't Frodo opened the door and Sauron would have ruled them all.

Sometimes it works (see Canon EOS), otherwise it doesn't (Samsung) ;-)

Luis Fonseca said:
Luis Fonseca said:

Whatever they'd do, hurting the K-mount would be too disastrous to be compensated by a mirrorless line and an adapter.

Click to expand...

We don't really know that, do we? It all depends on where does the money from Ricoh's camera business comes from.

I'm quite sure it's true. I don't expect Ricoh to sink money into the camera business until it recovers - if it ever does. Olympus' didn't recover in what, a decade?

If they can go mirrorless without hurting the K-mount... maybe that would work.

Luis Fonseca said:
With a good adapter to L-mount the K-mount lenses would retain their value while opening a new market for the unique FA limiteds.

I have no doubt that I would get a Pentax mirroless with L-mount and a K-mount adapter (with motor to drive AF on FA lenses) as soon as they'd be available.

I have no doubt that a few people here are genuinely decided to buy such a camera, if it happens. Some would even do it ;-)

However, are you folks enough to replace the K-mount user base? Hurting the K-mount means most people would leave, a few would switch to the new mount.

Alex

Alex Sarbu · Oct 24, 2019

Roland Karlsson said:
That seems to be some kind of near consensus among those wanting a mirrorless Pentax. Pentax needs to be a bit careful though. Maybe that fantastic adapter is the only thing Pentax will sell. Then Panasonic and Leica users can use second hand Pentax lenses. Or Maybe the Pentax body using Panasonic lenses. It might be an economic catastrophe.

Right. It's never as simple as we'd hope.

The advantage is clear: they won't have to build a system from scratch. But we should also see the disadvantages; it's not easy when for the same system your competitors are e.g. offering cheaper products (Sigma lenses, older cameras at a discount) or superior features (video - Panasonic is an expert). Yes it's convenient for us, but for Pentax' perspective, there is no barrier preventing us to just get a Panasonic/Sigma instead.

Alex

Alex Sarbu · Oct 24, 2019

Roland Karlsson said:
Personally I believe that it would be perfectly possible for Pentax to make K02, K01 done right, as a slimmer camera something like you describe. It would take some development effort though and might not be a success, i.e. not worth it. Just taking resources and money from the main path.

I see a K-02 camera as a specialized tool - the clearest image forming in my head is that of a video oriented camera (still consumer, not pro; but the OVF is useless for video).
It doesn't look like something Pentax would do, though.

Alex

Massao · Oct 24, 2019

Ari Aikomus said:
Ari Aikomus said:

And note, this is not the same thing as buying a Sony camera. The adapters made for PK lenses on Sony are totally crap. Manual everything.

Click to expand...

Well, manual yes, but not all adapters are crap. There are also good quality adapters - for example: Pentax K - Sony

169 Euro for a mechanical adapter? Talk about "over-price"....

Lightright · Oct 24, 2019

Luis Fonseca said:
A sensor with PDAF could solve the AF "problems" of the K-01.

Not just solve the shortcomings of K-01, the on sensor pdaf could further enhance the AF system and perform better than a traditional dslr.

Luis Fonseca said:
There's no reason to follow Panasonic on size. Just look at the Sigma fp. "Just" add a flash mount, a viewfinder and Pentax's SR and it's good to go.

But the longer flange distance makes it harder to design compact wide angle lenses.

Going ML does not necessarily mean getting any more compact anyway. The real advantage of ML is its greater flexibility in AF handling and performance simply because of less moving parts. Besides, the K - mount already has a large selection of lenses for both full frame and apsc with Ricoh's limited resources, it would simply be costly to abandon that mount. Panasonic and Sigma joined the L-mount alliance because they don't have a mount for FF unlike Pentax does.

Ari Aikomus · Oct 24, 2019

Roland Karlsson said:
That seems to be some kind of near consensus among those wanting a mirrorless Pentax. Pentax needs to be a bit careful though. Maybe that fantastic adapter is the only thing Pentax will sell.

Maybe. If Pentax is incapable of making great & selling lenses... And why make cameras either if pentax don't have the resources to make a good MILC camera (or interest, Ricoh) ?

Roland Karlsson said:
Then Panasonic and Leica users can use second hand Pentax lenses. Or Maybe the Pentax body using Panasonic lenses. It might be an economic catastrophe.

I don't know. This is a pretty difficult case. The key question is what Ricoh want to do...How serious they are in the game.

cheers,

Ari

Ari Aikomus · Oct 24, 2019

Massao said:
Ari Aikomus said:

Roland Karlsson said:

And note, this is not the same thing as buying a Sony camera. The adapters made for PK lenses on Sony are totally crap. Manual everything.

Click to expand...

Well, manual yes, but not all adapters are crap. There are also good quality adapters - for example: Pentax K - Sony

Click to expand...

169 Euro for a mechanical adapter? Talk about "over-price"....

Of course you can buy cheaper China products. Novoflex products are made in Europe, Germany.

Ari

Ari Aikomus · Oct 24, 2019

Bob Janes said:
Everything has it's time...

There may be a future for K mount, but I would suggest that future is in serving the market of photographers who have a genuine preference for optical reflex viewfinders.

+1...Maybe that's the case.

Roland Karlsson · Oct 24, 2019

There do exist a very simple solution. I do not know if it is good enough, but it sure is extremely simple.

Lets make a mirrorless camera that use a K-mount with a shorter registration distance.

Then you can use an automatic extension tube for old SLR lenses.

Thats all folks. Nothing more and nothing less. No need for strange adapters with motors etc.

Of course, many will ask if the K-mount is good for mirrorless? If it has a future? Good questions. Next questions.

--
/Roland
Kalpanika X3F tools:

GitHub - Kalpanika/x3f: Tools for manipulating X3F files from Sigma cameras

Tools for manipulating X3F files from Sigma cameras - Kalpanika/x3f

github.com

Ari Aikomus · Oct 24, 2019

Roland Karlsson said:
There do exist a very simple solution. I do not know if it is good enough, but it sure is extremely simple.

Lets make a mirrorless camera that use a K-mount with a shorter registration distance.

Then you can use an automatic extension tube for old SLR lenses.

Yep. Not a very bad idea ;-)

Roland Karlsson said:
Thats all folks. Nothing more and nothing less. No need for strange adapters with motors etc.

But of course that K-mirrorless body still needs AF motor inside camera and also aperture lever mechanics. But that's not an impossible task to implement...

Roland Karlsson said:
Of course, many will ask if the K-mount is good for mirrorless? If it has a future? Good questions. Next questions.

It's not Pentax K mount, it's different mount with a shorter registration distance. And that "automatic extension tube" doesn't have to be like a native PK extension tube. It could be like new adapter between K-mount lenses and new Pentax mirrorless mount.

Ari

bob5050 · Oct 24, 2019

Roland Karlsson said:
[...] use an automatic extension tube for old SLR lenses.

New K-mount lenses require electronic linkages. Old models require physical linkages. An extension tube has neither. You're hiding a lot under that 'automatic' part.

Roland Karlsson said:
No need for strange adapters with motors etc.

For mechanical linkage lenses, something has to drive the screw. Either that motor goes into the adapter and translates the camera's signal into screw drive movement, or it has to exist in the body--which would be rather silly, given that no lens would ever be built to use it directly.
bob5050

Roland Karlsson · Oct 24, 2019

bob5050 said:
Roland Karlsson said:

[...] use an automatic extension tube for old SLR lenses.

Click to expand...

New K-mount lenses require electronic linkages. Old models require physical linkages. An extension tube has neither. You're hiding a lot under that 'automatic' part.

I never said any such tube existed. It has to be made, of course.

bob5050 said:
bob5050 said:

No need for strange adapters with motors etc.

Click to expand...

For mechanical linkage lenses, something has to drive the screw. Either that motor goes into the adapter and translates the camera's signal into screw drive movement, or it has to exist in the body--which would be rather silly, given that no lens would ever be built to use it directly.

bob5050

My assumption was the silly solution that the motor was in the body

I had several caveats in the text that this might not be the best solution.

I only said it was the simplest solution.

Roland Karlsson · Oct 24, 2019

Ari Aikomus said:
Massao said:

Ari Aikomus said:

Roland Karlsson said:

And note, this is not the same thing as buying a Sony camera. The adapters made for PK lenses on Sony are totally crap. Manual everything.

Click to expand...

Well, manual yes, but not all adapters are crap. There are also good quality adapters - for example: Pentax K - Sony

Click to expand...

169 Euro for a mechanical adapter? Talk about "over-price"....

Click to expand...

Of course you can buy cheaper China products. Novoflex products are made in Europe, Germany.

Ari

Novoflex used to have an adapter for Pentax lenses where you could set the aperture (for those lenses without an aperture ring). It is no more.

Pontoneer · Oct 24, 2019

bob5050 said:
Polacofede said:

However looking for a distant future if almost everyone gets educated on a mirrorless then dslr will be in such a small market share that their price would go to stratosphere to at least be able to compensate development costs turning them no longer viable.

Click to expand...

I don't see anything here to disagree with--after a career in IT, I'd never bet on a mechanical technology over an all in-silico solution for the long term. Eventually, computers win...

bob5050

Well , not necessarily ,

look at audio - a traditional high end analogue turntable system can arguably out perform most digital systems , and if you are looking at a 'no mechanical parts' system you lower the bar to typically mp3 systems which are just rubbish .

Even digital radio , thanks to the low bit rates , will actually sound worse than most old AM radio stations of the 1960s .

Polacofede · Oct 24, 2019

Pontoneer said:
bob5050 said:

Polacofede said:

However looking for a distant future if almost everyone gets educated on a mirrorless then dslr will be in such a small market share that their price would go to stratosphere to at least be able to compensate development costs turning them no longer viable.

Click to expand...

I don't see anything here to disagree with--after a career in IT, I'd never bet on a mechanical technology over an all in-silico solution for the long term. Eventually, computers win...

bob5050

Click to expand...

Well , not necessarily ,

look at audio - a traditional high end analogue turntable system can arguably out perform most digital systems , and if you are looking at a 'no mechanical parts' system you lower the bar to typically mp3 systems which are just rubbish .

Even digital radio , thanks to the low bit rates , will actually sound worse than most old AM radio stations of the 1960s .

Yeah that's why there is plenty of turntables and old radio stations still transmitting.

Streaming is almost everywhere nowdays, coz ease of use, no maintenance and ubiquity are most important things. Yeah, there are still small niches for other stuff, but they represent almost close to nothing.

Pentax mirrorless should retain K-mount. Here's how it can still be competitive with new mounts.

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