Pentax mirrorless should retain K-mount. Here's how it can still be competitive with new mounts.

Alex Sarbu · Oct 23, 2019

Bob Janes said:
If the benefits of the optical viewfinder are real, they will be appreciated by new people

Only if they know about them ;-)

I hope, I really hope the DSLR's future won't be decided by Pentax' marketing.

Bob Janes said:
Expecting continuous evolution from a device as mature as a DSLR may not be realistic - most exeamples are close to as good as they could be.

I could enumerate half a dozen improvements, half of which significant, without much effort - and the developers should be able to do better. But, would it happen?

Alex

bob5050 · Oct 23, 2019

Polacofede said:
However looking for a distant future if almost everyone gets educated on a mirrorless then dslr will be in such a small market share that their price would go to stratosphere to at least be able to compensate development costs turning them no longer viable.

I don't see anything here to disagree with--after a career in IT, I'd never bet on a mechanical technology over an all in-silico solution for the long term. Eventually, computers win.

Nevertheless, I'm also keenly aware of the tendency of IT to chase fads and over-promise in the short term--MILCs have been around for some time now, and neither (1) outsell dSLRs, nor, crucially, (2) out-perform them except in the ease of going between still and video. At some point in the future, I'm sure they'll blow dSLRs away--but it's not happening yet.

So basically nothing that you're saying is actionable, or gives me any reason to re-think my intention to buy the K-3 replacement. People who buy leading edge technology pay an exorbitant premium for it.

When, in another 5-10 years things have further progressed, we'll all have to rethink our choices--whether we buy dSLRs or MILCs now. There's no such things as future-proofing.

bob5050

Polacofede · Oct 23, 2019

bob5050 said:
Polacofede said:

However looking for a distant future if almost everyone gets educated on a mirrorless then dslr will be in such a small market share that their price would go to stratosphere to at least be able to compensate development costs turning them no longer viable.

Click to expand...

I don't see anything here to disagree with--after a career in IT, I'd never bet on a mechanical technology over an all in-silico solution for the long term. Eventually, computers win.

Nevertheless, I'm also keenly aware of the tendency of IT to chase fads and over-promise in the short term--MILCs have been around for some time now, and neither (1) outsell dSLRs, nor, crucially, (2) out-perform them except in the ease of going between still and video. At some point in the future, I'm sure they'll blow dSLRs away--but it's not happening yet.

So basically nothing that you're saying is actionable, or gives me any reason to re-think my intention to buy the K-3 replacement. People who buy leading edge technology pay an exorbitant premium for it.

I'm not saying you shouldn't buy it. In fact i would bet it will be fantastic.

Just saying that companies needs to define strategies for the long term, so even though in the short term they will be relasing a new apsc dslr k3 replacement the distant future could be pretty different.

So, again, as people get more and more educated on mirrorles the less prone could be to buy a dslr. I still remember when first digital cameras came out, a few years after that when i was on vacations i could hardly ask anyone to take a picture of me with my fixed lens film camera they, automatically they were looking for the screen. And i live in a country where technology adoption is slow. So, that people at that time, when going to a camera shop they would ever look to a film camera again. In the long term is it possible that happens with dlsr too. Yeah, film has still its users, but are scarce.

bob5050 said:
When, in another 5-10 years things have further progressed, we'll all have to rethink our choices--whether we buy dSLRs or MILCs now. There's no such things as future-proofing.

Yeah, agree, one thing are you or my immediate needs and a totally different one is a company defining their long term roadmap. I wouldn't blame pentax if they choose to stop releasing dslr, that's for sure.

bob5050 said:
bob5050

Alex Sarbu · Oct 23, 2019

Polacofede said:
So, again, as people get more and more educated on mirrorles the less prone could be to buy a dslr.

Educated? I'd rather say, brainwashed. Buying a DSLR is not a disease.

Alex

bob5050 · Oct 23, 2019

Polacofede said:
Just saying that companies needs to define strategies for the long term,

I'm sure they do, and I'm sure they are. But generally not in public.

I don't know the long term plans of Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Sony, Olympus, or anyone else, either, and such plans, if occasionally vaguely discussed, always come with "forward-looking statement" disclaimers that basically say "Don't trust anything here--it's not a commitment, and could all change in a minute."

So it's just not something it makes any sense to worry about.

bob5050

Polacofede · Oct 23, 2019

bob5050 said:
Polacofede said:

Just saying that companies needs to define strategies for the long term,

Click to expand...

I'm sure they do, and I'm sure they are. But generally not in public.

I don't know the long term plans of Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Sony, Olympus, or anyone else, either, and such plans, if occasionally vaguely discussed, always come with "forward-looking statement" disclaimers that basically say "Don't trust anything here--it's not a commitment, and could all change in a minute."

So it's just not something it makes any sense to worry about.

I'm not worried at all, i have real world things to be worried

bob5050 said:
bob5050

Polacofede · Oct 23, 2019

Alex Sarbu said:
Polacofede said:

So, again, as people get more and more educated on mirrorles the less prone could be to buy a dslr.

Click to expand...

Educated? I'd rather say, brainwashed. Buying a DSLR is not a disease.

Alex

well, choose the term you wish, but if a kid sees it's father using a mirrorless and learns from it or at school, academy etc their first contact is with that, I would guess what would end up buying in a future is a mirrorless.

In a similar fashion happens with tons of other kind of devices.

Roland Karlsson · Oct 23, 2019

This has already been proposed in multiple threads by multiple people, me included.

And the most popular/common solution is making a mirrorless camera with a dedicated adapter. The adapter so made that all functionality from the current K-mount is supported by the adapter.

And note, this is not the same thing as buying a Sony camera. The adapters made for PK lenses on Sony are totally crap. Manual everything.

Roland Karlsson · Oct 23, 2019

Prognathous said:
Sjak said:

Why not a removable adapter? That will make things much easier, and therefore also cheaper.

Click to expand...

Mostly because an adapter is more cumbersome to use compared to just attaching any K-mount lens (either legacy or designed-for-mirrorless) and letting the camera take care of the rest.

I think you have to take that cumbersomeness, instead of your suggestion. It is expensive and probably fragile. And it needs to be supported by all camera bodies you buy.

Roland Karlsson · Oct 23, 2019

Bob Janes said:
Imagine if Pentax had tried to make m42 work straight off with a K mount body and no adapter?

Miranda has such a solution when moving from thread to bayonet. Inner thread and outer bayonet.

Lahmajunior · Oct 23, 2019

The lousy adapter issue is one of the reasons I'm inclined towards a k-mount mirrorless. It wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be better than what I've worked with adapting k-mount lenses to Sony and Fuji bodies.

Alex Sarbu · Oct 24, 2019

Roland Karlsson said:
And note, this is not the same thing as buying a Sony camera. The adapters made for PK lenses on Sony are totally crap. Manual everything.

There's something worse than manual control: no control. Say, no aperture with KAF4 lenses, no focus with the focus-by-wire PLM.

OTOH, adapters, particularly those to a non-Pentax mount (Leica SL?) are a method of helping people run away ;-)

Alex

Mistral75 · Oct 24, 2019

Alex Sarbu said:
(...)
OTOH, adapters, particularly those to a non-Pentax mount (Leica SL?) are a method of helping people run away ;-)

Alex

That would only be the case if the hypothetical L-mount Pentax cameras were vastly inferior to their Leica, Panasonic and Sigma counterparts. Why should they?

Pontoneer · Oct 24, 2019

Prognathous said:
They should retain K-mount for backward compatibility, but support shorter-flange for a new line of designed-for-mirrorless lenses. Here are a couple of options, both of which retain backward compatibility to existing K-mount lenses without losing infinity and without the need for an adapter.

Option 1 (which I already suggested previously on this forum) - expanding/collapsing lens mount (adjustable flange). With two modes:

Collapsed mode with new "for-mirrorless" lenses. In this mode the mount is closer to the sensor (similar to Sony E-mount or m43) and requires new lenses, designed-for-mirrorless.

Expanded mode with current K-mount lenses. In this mode the mount is in the same distance from the sensor as K-mount DSLRs, and for all intent is identical to K-mount. This would allow the camera to use current K-mount lenses without an adapter.

Pros:

Support for legacy K-mount lenses when the mount is expanded (long flange) + support for newer lenses designed for when the mount is collapsed (shorter flange)

The body remains compact when new designed-for-mirrorless lenses are used

Possibly may be used to provide AF with MF lenses (by moving the lens closer or farther from the sensor)

Option to get better macro with new designed-for-mirrorless lenses (by moving the lens farther from the sensor, losing infinity but gaining shorter focus distance)

As a result of the last two points - potential to provide support for SLR/DSLR lenses of other brands (e.g. Canon EF mount, Nikon F mount) with AF.

Con:

Challenging to engineer a mechanism that expands/collapses the mount and is sturdy, accurate and not too heavy

Option 2. An internal optical group (in the body) that, when needed, slides between the legacy K-mount lens and the sensor to adjust for the shorter flange

Pros:

Support for legacy K-mount lenses + newer lenses designed for the shorter flange

The body always remains compact

Possibly may be used to enhance stabilization if this optical group can move to compensate for shake (OIS)

Con:

Adjusting focus to infinity this way may be impossible to achieve. Did I mention I'm not an engineer? ;-)

Optical quality with legacy lenses will be reduced to some degree

In any case, providing built-in support for existing lenses without compromising size is a very attractive feature that would make Pentax mirrorless cameras unique. Hopefully if they do it they'll include an EVF and let someone other than Marc Newson design the camera.

I am quite happy with the size of the K-01 , and I bought it particularly because I could use my existing collection of K-Mount lenses ; I have no great interest in buying another set of lenses , short of either going up to medium format, or down to the Q ( which I would only buy cheaply and secondhand) .

If I were looking to update my K-01 , I’d want something very similar but with a 35mm FF sensor ( I believe it could be fitted into the existing body size ) an articulating screen , and optional evf .

Those changes aside , Pentax pretty much got it right first time : keep the lens mount , keep the D-Li90 batteries , keep the flash shoe , keep the same menu structure.... oh , two control wheels would be good , I find it a faff in manual mode to have to switch the one dial between functions all the time .

Pontoneer · Oct 24, 2019

Bob Janes said:
Imagine if Pentax had tried to make m42 work straight off with a K mount body and no adapter?

Erm , they pretty much did .

The first K-Mount camera’s were basically Spotmatics fitted with the K-Mount in place of the screw mount .

Alex Sarbu · Oct 24, 2019

Mistral75 said:
Alex Sarbu said:

(...)

OTOH, adapters, particularly those to a non-Pentax mount (Leica SL?) are a method of helping people run away ;-)

Alex

Click to expand...

That would only be the case if the hypothetical L-mount Pentax cameras were vastly inferior to their Leica, Panasonic and Sigma counterparts. Why should they?

Run away from the K-mount, I mean. But once you open the door, there's no telling where people would be going. "It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of the door" ;-)

Whatever they'd do, hurting the K-mount would be too disastrous to be compensated by a mirrorless line and an adapter.

Alex

Pontoneer · Oct 24, 2019

Polacofede said:
Alex Sarbu said:

Polacofede said:

So, again, as people get more and more educated on mirrorles the less prone could be to buy a dslr.

Click to expand...

Educated? I'd rather say, brainwashed. Buying a DSLR is not a disease.

Alex

Click to expand...

well, choose the term you wish, but if a kid sees it's father using a mirrorless and learns from it or at school, academy etc their first contact is with that, I would guess what would end up buying in a future is a mirrorless.

In a similar fashion happens with tons of other kind of devices.

Bob Janes · Oct 24, 2019

Pontoneer said:
Bob Janes said:

Imagine if Pentax had tried to make m42 work straight off with a K mount body and no adapter?

Click to expand...

Erm , they pretty much did .

The first K-Mount camera’s were basically Spotmatics fitted with the K-Mount in place of the screw mount .

They kept the registartion distance, but that was about all.

They changed the method of stopping down (from punch-pin to lateral lever, and from full-open at rest to fully closed) and they changed the way of communicating maximum aperture to the body (SMC only, as the earlier lenses were stop-down metering only).

Moreover, they had an adapter to enable basic stop-down use of m42 lenses on K mount.

The legacy of K mount is already very complex - it is to their credit that they managed to keep it going through so many variants enabling autofocus and shutter/programme exposure, but to try to make a dual registration mount that would accomodate even the latest of the Pentax range, would be over the top - and needlessly compliated.

Roland Karlsson · Oct 24, 2019

Pontoneer said:
I am quite happy with the size of the K-01 , and I bought it particularly because I could use my existing collection of K-Mount lenses ;

Sometimes, when I am in that mood, I kind of agree with you. I have two K01. One light blue, just because it is so pretty and one black that is converted to full spectrum.

They are kind of nice to use. Tooooooo sloooooow though when it comes to AF. And a bit too clunky. They could be slimmed up a fair bit.

Unfortunately, there is a good argument for a shorter registration distance. Even though I do not really mind the size, the lens designers do. And the market do.

Lightright · Oct 24, 2019

Pontoneer said:
I am quite happy with the size of the K-01 , and I bought it particularly because I could use my existing collection of K-Mount lenses ; I have no great interest in buying another set of lenses , short of either going up to medium format, or down to the Q ( which I would only buy cheaply and secondhand) .

If I were looking to update my K-01 , I’d want something very similar but with a 35mm FF sensor ( I believe it could be fitted into the existing body size ) an articulating screen , and optional evf .

Those changes aside , Pentax pretty much got it right first time : keep the lens mount , keep the D-Li90 batteries , keep the flash shoe , keep the same menu structure.... oh , two control wheels would be good , I find it a faff in manual mode to have to switch the one dial between functions all the time .

Pentax K-01 have already demonstrated that the K mount is still capable to deliver that mirrorless experience. Ricoh could just branch out from this and iterate another release with on sensor PDAF and EVF in order to take full advantage the mirrorless potential - overall better AF system with advanced tracking capability (especially eye AF) and even silent shooting in the future. Size is not an issue at all - no need to look further on Panasonic's approach to mirrorless which is as bulky as Nikon's FF dslr itself. Ricoh also have new lenses that have faster and quieter dc motors that are not any more expensive than it's screw drive counterparts.

Pentax mirrorless should retain K-mount. Here's how it can still be competitive with new mounts.

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