Sensor Hasselblad X1D II and Fujifilm GFX 100

marcovanbel

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Good day,

The sensor size of both these cameras is 43.8 x 32.9 mm, however Hasselblad is a 50mp camera and Fujifilm is a 100mp camera. How does Fujifilm achieve twice the mps with the same size sensor?

Thank you,

Marcovanbel
 
Good day,

The sensor size of both these cameras is 43.8 x 32.9 mm, however Hasselblad is a 50mp camera and Fujifilm is a 100mp camera. How does Fujifilm achieve twice the mps with the same size sensor?

Thank you,

Marcovanbel
GFX 100 and X1D II use the same size but still different sensors.

E.g., the FF cameras have the same sensor size (approx. 36 x 24mm) but sensors with resolutions varying 61Mp and 24Mp.
 
Good day,

The sensor size of both these cameras is 43.8 x 32.9 mm, however Hasselblad is a 50mp camera and Fujifilm is a 100mp camera. How does Fujifilm achieve twice the mps with the same size sensor?
The pixels in the GFX 100 are 3.76 micrometers apart. The pixels in the GFX 50 and the X1D II are spaced 5.3 micrometers apart.
 
Both cameras use Sony CMOS sensors. The Hasselblad X1DII uses a five year old sensor, that is still probably in production. That sensor has around 50 MP.

Sony has released a 100 MP sensor a while ago. But it seems that Only Fujifilm is using in cameras intended for general photography.

Why Hasselblad is not using it. Some feasible guesses:
  • It can be that availability is limited.
  • It can be that the sensor is to expensive.
  • It can be that Hasselblad camera electronics are not fast enough to handle the much faster throughput of the new sensor.
Must I guess, I would guess it is performance of the electronics.

It may be that we see a Hasselblad X2D with the new sensor.

Just to say, wait for the GFX 100 was long.

It would also be my opinion that Hasselblad needs to implement the 102 MP sensor to stay competitive.

Best regards

Erik
 
Both cameras use Sony CMOS sensors. The Hasselblad X1DII uses a five year old sensor, that is still probably in production. That sensor has around 50 MP.

Sony has released a 100 MP sensor a while ago. But it seems that Only Fujifilm is using in cameras intended for general photography.

Why Hasselblad is not using it. Some feasible guesses:
  • It can be that availability is limited.
  • It can be that the sensor is to expensive.
  • It can be that Hasselblad camera electronics are not fast enough to handle the much faster throughput of the new sensor.
Must I guess, I would guess it is performance of the electronics.

It may be that we see a Hasselblad X2D with the new sensor.

Just to say, wait for the GFX 100 was long.

It would also be my opinion that Hasselblad needs to implement the 102 MP sensor to stay competitive.

Best regards

Erik
Or, maybe Hasselblad believes they cannot compete with Fuji head to head @ $10k. That would be a shame. An X2D 100 MP would be cool. Of course, it would have to be IBIS-less.
 
Both cameras use Sony CMOS sensors. The Hasselblad X1DII uses a five year old sensor, that is still probably in production. That sensor has around 50 MP.

Sony has released a 100 MP sensor a while ago. But it seems that Only Fujifilm is using in cameras intended for general photography.

Why Hasselblad is not using it. Some feasible guesses:
  • It can be that availability is limited.
  • It can be that the sensor is to expensive.
  • It can be that Hasselblad camera electronics are not fast enough to handle the much faster throughput of the new sensor.
Must I guess, I would guess it is performance of the electronics.

It may be that we see a Hasselblad X2D with the new sensor.

Just to say, wait for the GFX 100 was long.

It would also be my opinion that Hasselblad needs to implement the 102 MP sensor to stay competitive.

Best regards

Erik
Or, maybe Hasselblad believes they cannot compete with Fuji head to head @ $10k. That would be a shame. An X2D 100 MP would be cool. Of course, it would have to be IBIS-less.
No IBIS would mean that it would be smaller and lighter, and no OSPDAF would mean higher practical DR.

I also think that the market for 50mp MF cameras still exists. An X1D with 100mp would be nice, but not essential, IMO.
 
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Both cameras use Sony CMOS sensors. The Hasselblad X1DII uses a five year old sensor, that is still probably in production. That sensor has around 50 MP.

Sony has released a 100 MP sensor a while ago. But it seems that Only Fujifilm is using in cameras intended for general photography.

Why Hasselblad is not using it. Some feasible guesses:
  • It can be that availability is limited.
  • It can be that the sensor is to expensive.
  • It can be that Hasselblad camera electronics are not fast enough to handle the much faster throughput of the new sensor.
Must I guess, I would guess it is performance of the electronics.

It may be that we see a Hasselblad X2D with the new sensor.

Just to say, wait for the GFX 100 was long.

It would also be my opinion that Hasselblad needs to implement the 102 MP sensor to stay competitive.

Best regards

Erik
Or, maybe Hasselblad believes they cannot compete with Fuji head to head @ $10k. That would be a shame. An X2D 100 MP would be cool. Of course, it would have to be IBIS-less.
I don't think Hasselblad needs to compete with Fujifilm head to head. They just need to deliver systems that their customers will buy.

So, I don't think they need to have all the features Fujifilm has. Just as an example, if you shoot mostly in studio or on tripod, IBIS may not be an advantage.

But having twice the resolution probably makes a lot of sense. Of course, it can always be argued that 100 MP is not needed. But, it is quite obvious that having 100 MP has some advantages.



Which of these four cameras delivers the best 50 MP image? This is in comparison mode, so I think that all images are scaled to around 50 MP.
Which of these four cameras delivers the best 50 MP image? This is in comparison mode, so I think that all images are scaled to around 50 MP.

Best regards

Erik

--
Erik Kaffehr
Website: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
Magic uses to disappear in controlled experiments…
Gallery: http://echophoto.smugmug.com
Articles: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles
 
I also think that the market for 50mp MF cameras still exists. An X1D with 100mp would be nice, but not essential, IMO.
Absolutely . Most photographers do NOT need a 100Mo sensor . for me I prefer a 50MP sensor with a faster refresh rate

Harold
 
I also think that the market for 50mp MF cameras still exists. An X1D with 100mp would be nice, but not essential, IMO.
Absolutely . Most photographers do NOT need a 100Mo sensor . for me I prefer a 50MP sensor with a faster refresh rate
The Sony 100 MP chip used in the GFX 100 reads out faster at 14 bits than the 50 MP chip used in the GFX 50x and X1Dx.

Jim
 
I also think that the market for 50mp MF cameras still exists. An X1D with 100mp would be nice, but not essential, IMO.
Absolutely . Most photographers do NOT need a 100Mo sensor . for me I prefer a 50MP sensor with a faster refresh rate
The Sony 100 MP chip used in the GFX 100 reads out faster at 14 bits than the 50 MP chip used in the GFX 50x and X1Dx.

Jim
supposing this is true , how does it change my point ?
 
I also think that the market for 50mp MF cameras still exists. An X1D with 100mp would be nice, but not essential, IMO.
Absolutely . Most photographers do NOT need a 100Mo sensor . for me I prefer a 50MP sensor with a faster refresh rate
The Sony 100 MP chip used in the GFX 100 reads out faster at 14 bits than the 50 MP chip used in the GFX 50x and X1Dx.

Jim
supposing this is true , how does it change my point ?
You don't get a faster readout rate in the lower-res sensor. That's not a choice that's available to you. With the sensors available, if you want faster readout, you'll have to put up with more pixels.

--
https://blog.kasson.com
 
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I also think that the market for 50mp MF cameras still exists. An X1D with 100mp would be nice, but not essential, IMO.
Absolutely . Most photographers do NOT need a 100Mo sensor . for me I prefer a 50MP sensor with a faster refresh rate
The Sony 100 MP chip used in the GFX 100 reads out faster at 14 bits than the 50 MP chip used in the GFX 50x and X1Dx.

Jim
supposing this is true , how does it change my point ?
Hi,

The fact is that the GFX 100 is about twice as fast as the GFX 50 or the X1D. So, if you need speed, you can go GFX 100.

If you don’t need the megapixels, it may make perfectly good sense to go 24x36 mm or APS-C.

Best regards

Erik
 
I also think that the market for 50mp MF cameras still exists. An X1D with 100mp would be nice, but not essential, IMO.
Absolutely . Most photographers do NOT need a 100Mo sensor . for me I prefer a 50MP sensor with a faster refresh rate
The Sony 100 MP chip used in the GFX 100 reads out faster at 14 bits than the 50 MP chip used in the GFX 50x and X1Dx.

Jim
supposing this is true , how does it change my point ?
You don't get a faster readout rate in the lower-res sensor. That's not a choice that's available to you. With the sensors available, if you want faster readout, you'll have to put up with more pixels.
I assumed that Harold66 said that he would rather have a new MF sensor at 50 Mp with faster readout than the current 100Mp sensor with current readout speed.

I wish Sony would come out with new 50Mp MF sensors. Nothing on the horizon, so far.
 
I also think that the market for 50mp MF cameras still exists. An X1D with 100mp would be nice, but not essential, IMO.
Absolutely . Most photographers do NOT need a 100Mo sensor . for me I prefer a 50MP sensor with a faster refresh rate
The Sony 100 MP chip used in the GFX 100 reads out faster at 14 bits than the 50 MP chip used in the GFX 50x and X1Dx.

Jim
supposing this is true , how does it change my point ?
You don't get a faster readout rate in the lower-res sensor. That's not a choice that's available to you. With the sensors available, if you want faster readout, you'll have to put up with more pixels.
when you talk about readout , you mean for the EVF and the LCD yes ? does it change something about the buffer filling ?
 
I also think that the market for 50mp MF cameras still exists. An X1D with 100mp would be nice, but not essential, IMO.
Absolutely . Most photographers do NOT need a 100Mo sensor . for me I prefer a 50MP sensor with a faster refresh rate
The Sony 100 MP chip used in the GFX 100 reads out faster at 14 bits than the 50 MP chip used in the GFX 50x and X1Dx.

Jim
supposing this is true , how does it change my point ?
You don't get a faster readout rate in the lower-res sensor. That's not a choice that's available to you. With the sensors available, if you want faster readout, you'll have to put up with more pixels.
I assumed that Harold66 said that he would rather have a new MF sensor at 50 Mp with faster readout than the current 100Mp sensor with current readout speed.
yes probably although I want to make sure if the readout has anything to do with how fast the buffer fills

I am quite certain the 50MP , even in its current form , offers SEVERAL KEY avdantages over the 100 MP
I wish Sony would come out with new 50Mp MF sensors. Nothing on the horizon, so far.
yes sadly and because of the silly pixel race and people not understanding fully what it entices , they may not come with a new one which is sad
 
I also think that the market for 50mp MF cameras still exists. An X1D with 100mp would be nice, but not essential, IMO.
Absolutely . Most photographers do NOT need a 100Mo sensor . for me I prefer a 50MP sensor with a faster refresh rate
The Sony 100 MP chip used in the GFX 100 reads out faster at 14 bits than the 50 MP chip used in the GFX 50x and X1Dx.

Jim
supposing this is true , how does it change my point ?
You don't get a faster readout rate in the lower-res sensor. That's not a choice that's available to you. With the sensors available, if you want faster readout, you'll have to put up with more pixels.
when you talk about readout , you mean for the EVF and the LCD yes ? does it change something about the buffer filling ?
I'm talking about reading out the picture itself after the end of the exposure.
 
I also think that the market for 50mp MF cameras still exists. An X1D with 100mp would be nice, but not essential, IMO.
Absolutely . Most photographers do NOT need a 100Mo sensor . for me I prefer a 50MP sensor with a faster refresh rate
The Sony 100 MP chip used in the GFX 100 reads out faster at 14 bits than the 50 MP chip used in the GFX 50x and X1Dx.

Jim
supposing this is true , how does it change my point ?
You don't get a faster readout rate in the lower-res sensor. That's not a choice that's available to you. With the sensors available, if you want faster readout, you'll have to put up with more pixels.
when you talk about readout , you mean for the EVF and the LCD yes ? does it change something about the buffer filling ?
I'm talking about reading out the picture itself after the end of the exposure.
sorry I am not sure of what you mean
 
I also think that the market for 50mp MF cameras still exists. An X1D with 100mp would be nice, but not essential, IMO.
Absolutely . Most photographers do NOT need a 100Mo sensor . for me I prefer a 50MP sensor with a faster refresh rate
The Sony 100 MP chip used in the GFX 100 reads out faster at 14 bits than the 50 MP chip used in the GFX 50x and X1Dx.

Jim
supposing this is true , how does it change my point ?
You don't get a faster readout rate in the lower-res sensor. That's not a choice that's available to you. With the sensors available, if you want faster readout, you'll have to put up with more pixels.
when you talk about readout , you mean for the EVF and the LCD yes ? does it change something about the buffer filling ?
I'm talking about reading out the picture itself after the end of the exposure.
sorry I am not sure of what you mean
In 14-bit precision, the GFX 100 reads the image off the sensor faster than than the GFX 50s, GFZ 50R, or X1D (either version). With the 50 MP cameras, that's the limiting factor in determining how high a frame rate you can get with those cameras.
 
Hi,

The sensors used in the 50 MP cameras is a different generation from the sensor in the 100 MP cameras.

Reading out a CMOS sensor essentially means connecting a digital voltmeter to the sensor. The digital volt meter is called ADC (Analog to Digital Converter). Both GFX and X1DII use Sony sensors. These have internal columnwise ADCs.

On the 50 MP sensor, there are two ADC-s for each column, one at the bottom and one at the top. Each column on the sensor has around 6200 pixels. So each of the ADCs handles around 3100 pixels.

These ADCs are simple and they are not very fast. Speed is inversely proportional to the precision.

In normal operation the sensor is reset before exposure. Reseting the sensor just essentially means to connect the photodiode to signal ground. This is a very fast operation and it can be done for all pixels simultaneously.

Before exposure the shutter needs to be closed. The sensor is reset, meaning it starts collecting photons. After exposure the shutter is closed, mening that no more photons are reaching the sensor. With the shutter closed the sensor readout starts.

One of the reasons that the 100 MP sensor has faster readout than the 50 MP sensor is that it has not two but four ADC-s on each column. That depends on the BSI (Back Side Illumination). On a front side illuminated device the wiring is in front of the sensor and competes with the photodiode for sensor area. So wiring is kept to minimum.

With the BSI design, the wiring is behind the photodiodes, so it doesn's competer with photodiodes for area.

Therefore, the BSI design can use more ADCs per column.

The time to read out a column defines the blackout time of the sensor. The shutter needs to be closed under readout.

Electronic shutter uses a trick. The sensor is not reset the same time. Each row is reset just before exposure and exposure is terminated by reading the row. But readout is a relative slow process. So reading the sensor may take say 300 ms on the 50 MP sensor. That is essentially the sweep time of the electronic shutter.

The 100 MP BSI sensor works about twice that fast.

I don't know about present times, but developing a new sensor used to take something like three years.

The 50 MP sensor was hanging around for 5 years. Sony later made a 54x41 mm 100 MP sensor, using another pixel design.

With the 100 MP sensor, it seems that Sony has reused the same pixel design for at least four different formats, 54x41 mm at 150MP, 44x33 mm at 100 MP, 24x36 mm at 62 MP and APS-C at 26 MP.

If we look at Sony's own cameras, the A7rII was the first camera to use BSI and it was released 2015. The same sensor was used in the A7rIII. The A7rIV is the first of Sony's 24x36 mm cameras to use a new high resolution sensor. Something like four years for a new sensor generation.

Just to say, I am no sensor expert, far from it. Just tried to write down a reasonable explanation how things work. It was intentionally kept on the simple side.

Best regards

Erik

--
Erik Kaffehr
Website: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
Magic uses to disappear in controlled experiments…
Gallery: http://echophoto.smugmug.com
Articles: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles
 
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hello

Erik and Jim

Thank you for your explanations :-). it does make the things a little bit clearer for me :-D

H
 

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