Why is APS-C still so popular? Manufacturing!

No, the real reason is because people have no standards or they just don't know any better. They don't know what good photography is or they don't care about making good photos. That's why people still use cameras with sensors smaller than full frame. It's just the ignorance and low standards of the uncultured masses.
You do realize that although there is history to it, today the size of a FF sensor is completely arbitrary?
It wasn't arbitrary. There was a historical reason it wasn't arbitrary, therefore the reason it exists like this now isn't arbitrary.
There is a direct relation between sensor size, light gathering capability, and the size of a lens necessary to take full advantage of the sensor. So you can create a sensor of any size, the larger the "better" in terms of ability to resolve, but the more burdensome to carry. Why stop at FF? It's absurd to think that that arbitrary point is the "best." Why not 5% larger than FF? 10%? 100% larger? The constraint is the size and cost. So in that regard, FF is one of many options along an infinite number of possible configurations.
I disagree,
You're entitle to your opinion, even when your opinion is counter to the facts, as it is in this case.
I suggest that you read the article more carefully, it says nothing in contradiction to anything stevo23 said.
Pretty amazing what you learn with Google. BTW something can happen in history and still be arbitrary. It's like... arbitrary things happen, you know?
Sure, they can be arbitrary, but this wasn't one of them. There were many, many different film/frame formats available in the early days of film photography. Over the years one became dominant, despite several attempts by the world's largest film company to supersede it. There are reasons, not arbitrary, why that happened.
I read it carefully, did you? It clearly states that the digital full frame sensor size is not even the same size as film. And even if it were, please show me where the facts say that if (digital) full frame were 5% (or 10, 20...) bigger or smaller it would have made any kind of difference at all.
 
No, the real reason is because people have no standards or they just don't know any better. They don't know what good photography is or they don't care about making good photos. That's why people still use cameras with sensors smaller than full frame. It's just the ignorance and low standards of the uncultured masses.
You do realize that although there is history to it, today the size of a FF sensor is completely arbitrary?
It wasn't arbitrary. There was a historical reason it wasn't arbitrary, therefore the reason it exists like this now isn't arbitrary.
There is a direct relation between sensor size, light gathering capability, and the size of a lens necessary to take full advantage of the sensor. So you can create a sensor of any size, the larger the "better" in terms of ability to resolve, but the more burdensome to carry. Why stop at FF? It's absurd to think that that arbitrary point is the "best." Why not 5% larger than FF? 10%? 100% larger? The constraint is the size and cost. So in that regard, FF is one of many options along an infinite number of possible configurations.
I disagree, and so does this reviewer: https://nofilmschool.com/2014/08/crop-factor-sensor-size-zack-arias-dedpxl

Pretty amazing what you learn with Google. BTW something can happen in history and still be arbitrary. It's like... arbitrary things happen, you know?
I'm not sure that article settles anything. Mostly, he sounds like a spoiled brat who thinks the industry should shift for his convenience. But also, apparently he thinks the world revolves around cinema frame sizes.

The fact remains - when digital SLRs first came out, there were a lot of people out there with 35mm film cameras and lenses. In order to continue using their lenses and get the same results - FOV, DOF etc, they wanted a full frame sensor. This was no small problem. You could use APSC, but that meant the wider angles you were used to were less wide and the apertures you used to use are now providing a different DOF to the images you're producing. I know I waited until full frame sensors (D600) became reasonably priced before I bought a DSLR precisely because I wanted to use my lenses that I already had.

So the choice of 135 frame size for digital sensors was anything but arbitrary - it was intentional due to an industry standard. You can't argue with that reason and it wasn't arbitrary. You would have to go back and question the wisdom of using it in the film days and ask why they chose that frame size and why it became so mainstream.

You can of course ask, "why didn't we use that point in history to make a jump to a larger sensor? After all, so many folks ended up buying new lenses for digital anyhow. Would have been a good time to shake things up..."

But then what is the answer to that? Maybe you know that one already?
You're missing the point of the argument. OF COURSE the reason for the size of FF sensor is because of the historical precedent, surely nobody thinks that there should be random sensor and lens sizes of every combination. If that were the case no two cameras would be interchangeable (btw, this pretty much still only applies to the same mount system, but I digress). What my point was in response to the argument that there was an inherent advantage to the specific FF dimension. That's what I am saying is arbitrary because it is not an inherent advantage until after the whole system was created around it. At this point, you could say that every system that was developed is exactly the best size because it actually works with the lenses available, and no one would argue with that. Probably.
 
No, the real reason is because people have no standards or they just don't know any better. They don't know what good photography is or they don't care about making good photos. That's why people still use cameras with sensors smaller than full frame. It's just the ignorance and low standards of the uncultured masses.
You do realize that although there is history to it, today the size of a FF sensor is completely arbitrary?
It wasn't arbitrary. There was a historical reason it wasn't arbitrary, therefore the reason it exists like this now isn't arbitrary.
There is a direct relation between sensor size, light gathering capability, and the size of a lens necessary to take full advantage of the sensor. So you can create a sensor of any size, the larger the "better" in terms of ability to resolve, but the more burdensome to carry. Why stop at FF? It's absurd to think that that arbitrary point is the "best." Why not 5% larger than FF? 10%? 100% larger? The constraint is the size and cost. So in that regard, FF is one of many options along an infinite number of possible configurations.
I disagree,
You're entitle to your opinion, even when your opinion is counter to the facts, as it is in this case.
I suggest that you read the article more carefully, it says nothing in contradiction to anything stevo23 said.
Pretty amazing what you learn with Google. BTW something can happen in history and still be arbitrary. It's like... arbitrary things happen, you know?
Sure, they can be arbitrary, but this wasn't one of them. There were many, many different film/frame formats available in the early days of film photography. Over the years one became dominant, despite several attempts by the world's largest film company to supersede it. There are reasons, not arbitrary, why that happened.
I read it carefully, did you? It clearly states that the digital full frame sensor size is not even the same size as film.
You might be thinking about the part where he said:

"As you can see in the above comparison, 35mm motion picture film has a significantly smaller frame size than its photographic brother. Based on that alone, we can put to rest the idea that full frame 35mm is the standard frame size for cinema applications"

Full frame digital sensors are the same size as 135 film frames. It's cinema film he's referencing. Remember, he's coming from a film universe.
And even if it were, please show me where the facts say that if (digital) full frame were 5% (or 10, 20...) bigger or smaller it would have made any kind of difference at all.
Making a difference wasn't the issue at hand, but since you asked - have you looked at the cost of the Fuji GFX camera? Full frame is 36mmx24mm area and a Sony A7RIII (42Mp) runs $2500, GFX is 44mmx33mm (50 Mp) and running about $5000. You can get 61Mp in the Sony A7RIV for a mere $3500. But then factor in the cost of lenses and it really gets you.

And to be sure - several years ago, studios had LEAF and PhaseOne backs on their medium format cameras. I recall they were $15,000 and up at the time. No matter how you slice it, economics typically go with size when it comes to making digital sensors.

But originally, the issue was whether or not the full frame digital sensor size is arbitrary. That much we can put to rest - it was and is not arbitrary in the least because it is based on a film size that was being used and is made to match the lenses and workflow that were established by the photography industry as digital was coming into maturity.

Remember, there was significant overlap - digital didn't take over in an instant and people had both film and digital cameras. There was significant value in being able to swap lenses back and forth and get the same results.

But more than that, there was also value in not having to buy new lenses which would have been the case if the format were 5% larger.
 
No, the real reason is because people have no standards or they just don't know any better. They don't know what good photography is or they don't care about making good photos. That's why people still use cameras with sensors smaller than full frame. It's just the ignorance and low standards of the uncultured masses.
You do realize that although there is history to it, today the size of a FF sensor is completely arbitrary?
It wasn't arbitrary. There was a historical reason it wasn't arbitrary, therefore the reason it exists like this now isn't arbitrary.
There is a direct relation between sensor size, light gathering capability, and the size of a lens necessary to take full advantage of the sensor. So you can create a sensor of any size, the larger the "better" in terms of ability to resolve, but the more burdensome to carry. Why stop at FF? It's absurd to think that that arbitrary point is the "best." Why not 5% larger than FF? 10%? 100% larger? The constraint is the size and cost. So in that regard, FF is one of many options along an infinite number of possible configurations.
I disagree, and so does this reviewer: https://nofilmschool.com/2014/08/crop-factor-sensor-size-zack-arias-dedpxl

Pretty amazing what you learn with Google. BTW something can happen in history and still be arbitrary. It's like... arbitrary things happen, you know?
I'm not sure that article settles anything. Mostly, he sounds like a spoiled brat who thinks the industry should shift for his convenience. But also, apparently he thinks the world revolves around cinema frame sizes.

The fact remains - when digital SLRs first came out, there were a lot of people out there with 35mm film cameras and lenses. In order to continue using their lenses and get the same results - FOV, DOF etc, they wanted a full frame sensor. This was no small problem. You could use APSC, but that meant the wider angles you were used to were less wide and the apertures you used to use are now providing a different DOF to the images you're producing. I know I waited until full frame sensors (D600) became reasonably priced before I bought a DSLR precisely because I wanted to use my lenses that I already had.

So the choice of 135 frame size for digital sensors was anything but arbitrary - it was intentional due to an industry standard. You can't argue with that reason and it wasn't arbitrary. You would have to go back and question the wisdom of using it in the film days and ask why they chose that frame size and why it became so mainstream.

You can of course ask, "why didn't we use that point in history to make a jump to a larger sensor? After all, so many folks ended up buying new lenses for digital anyhow. Would have been a good time to shake things up..."

But then what is the answer to that? Maybe you know that one already?
You're missing the point of the argument. OF COURSE the reason for the size of FF sensor is because of the historical precedent, surely nobody thinks that there should be random sensor and lens sizes of every combination.
Glad you're finally coming to that conclusion.
If that were the case no two cameras would be interchangeable (btw, this pretty much still only applies to the same mount system, but I digress). What my point was in response to the argument that there was an inherent advantage to the specific FF dimension. That's what I am saying is arbitrary because it is not an inherent advantage until after the whole system was created around it. At this point, you could say that every system that was developed is exactly the best size because it actually works with the lenses available, and no one would argue with that. Probably.
Not exactly. I think you're mixing two things up.

First, saying "arbitrary because it is not an an inherent advantage" doesn't really follow. What is arbitrary? the frame size? To be arbitrary would imply someone just kind of picked it out of nowhere. But in fact, they were entirely deliberate. There was an inherent advantage to it before it was created because it immediately fit with an existing workflow. This was foresight, not hindsight. So nothing arbitrary that I can think of apply to it.

Perhaps you're trying to say that 35mm full frame doesn't have any particular advantage or reason for being promoted other than the fact that it was designed to match an existing workflow? That might work for me.

And to say that every system that was developed is exactly the best size because it works with available lenses doesn't quite work either.

4/3s was designed for digital from the start - no historical film size to match.

APS sizes seem to vary a bit. I don't think there were a lot of APS SLRs out there and most of them used full frame lenses, so no need to match a large installation of film APS cameras and lenses.

Medium Format has sensor sizes all over the place and I think very few match previous film frames.
 
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No, the real reason is because people have no standards or they just don't know any better. They don't know what good photography is or they don't care about making good photos. That's why people still use cameras with sensors smaller than full frame. It's just the ignorance and low standards of the uncultured masses.
You do realize that although there is history to it, today the size of a FF sensor is completely arbitrary?
It wasn't arbitrary. There was a historical reason it wasn't arbitrary, therefore the reason it exists like this now isn't arbitrary.
There is a direct relation between sensor size, light gathering capability, and the size of a lens necessary to take full advantage of the sensor. So you can create a sensor of any size, the larger the "better" in terms of ability to resolve, but the more burdensome to carry. Why stop at FF? It's absurd to think that that arbitrary point is the "best." Why not 5% larger than FF? 10%? 100% larger? The constraint is the size and cost. So in that regard, FF is one of many options along an infinite number of possible configurations.
I disagree, and so does this reviewer: https://nofilmschool.com/2014/08/crop-factor-sensor-size-zack-arias-dedpxl

Pretty amazing what you learn with Google. BTW something can happen in history and still be arbitrary. It's like... arbitrary things happen, you know?
I'm not sure that article settles anything. Mostly, he sounds like a spoiled brat who thinks the industry should shift for his convenience. But also, apparently he thinks the world revolves around cinema frame sizes.

The fact remains - when digital SLRs first came out, there were a lot of people out there with 35mm film cameras and lenses. In order to continue using their lenses and get the same results - FOV, DOF etc, they wanted a full frame sensor. This was no small problem. You could use APSC, but that meant the wider angles you were used to were less wide and the apertures you used to use are now providing a different DOF to the images you're producing. I know I waited until full frame sensors (D600) became reasonably priced before I bought a DSLR precisely because I wanted to use my lenses that I already had.

So the choice of 135 frame size for digital sensors was anything but arbitrary - it was intentional due to an industry standard. You can't argue with that reason and it wasn't arbitrary. You would have to go back and question the wisdom of using it in the film days and ask why they chose that frame size and why it became so mainstream.

You can of course ask, "why didn't we use that point in history to make a jump to a larger sensor? After all, so many folks ended up buying new lenses for digital anyhow. Would have been a good time to shake things up..."

But then what is the answer to that? Maybe you know that one already?
You're missing the point of the argument. OF COURSE the reason for the size of FF sensor is because of the historical precedent, surely nobody thinks that there should be random sensor and lens sizes of every combination.
Glad you're finally coming to that conclusion.
If that were the case no two cameras would be interchangeable (btw, this pretty much still only applies to the same mount system, but I digress). What my point was in response to the argument that there was an inherent advantage to the specific FF dimension. That's what I am saying is arbitrary because it is not an inherent advantage until after the whole system was created around it. At this point, you could say that every system that was developed is exactly the best size because it actually works with the lenses available, and no one would argue with that. Probably.
Not exactly. I think you're mixing two things up.

First, saying "arbitrary because it is not an an inherent advantage" doesn't really follow. What is arbitrary? the frame size? To be arbitrary would imply someone just kind of picked it out of nowhere. But in fact, they were entirely deliberate. There was an inherent advantage to it before it was created because it immediately fit with an existing workflow. This was foresight, not hindsight. So nothing arbitrary that I can think of apply to it.

Perhaps you're trying to say that 35mm full frame doesn't have any particular advantage or reason for being promoted other than the fact that it was designed to match an existing workflow? That might work for me.

And to say that every system that was developed is exactly the best size because it works with available lenses doesn't quite work either.

4/3s was designed for digital from the start - no historical film size to match.

APS sizes seem to vary a bit. I don't think there were a lot of APS SLRs out there and most of them used full frame lenses, so no need to match a large installation of film APS cameras and lenses.

Medium Format has sensor sizes all over the place and I think very few match previous film frames.
IIRC, the basic premise for 2:3 was because it was quite close to the "golden ratio." The problem is, these days people no longer think of that as being necessarily more aesthetically pleasing than any other ratio as perceptions have moved on. I think where you misunderstand me is that I am not saying 35mm is any worse, it's fine, it's that I am saying that for me, I would not care if we had evolved a 5:7 ratio, or a 13:17, ratio. And I do actually like 4/3 aspect ratio mind you, although PERSONALLY I prefer a slightly larger sensor because I find that I can still manage APS-C without complaining too much. I've tried MF and at that point, for me, its no longer quite as comfortable. But the guy next to me is much bigger and does weight lifting. So who's to say it's not better for him?
 
No, the real reason is because people have no standards or they just don't know any better. They don't know what good photography is or they don't care about making good photos. That's why people still use cameras with sensors smaller than full frame. It's just the ignorance and low standards of the uncultured masses.
You do realize that although there is history to it, today the size of a FF sensor is completely arbitrary?
It wasn't arbitrary. There was a historical reason it wasn't arbitrary, therefore the reason it exists like this now isn't arbitrary.
There is a direct relation between sensor size, light gathering capability, and the size of a lens necessary to take full advantage of the sensor. So you can create a sensor of any size, the larger the "better" in terms of ability to resolve, but the more burdensome to carry. Why stop at FF? It's absurd to think that that arbitrary point is the "best." Why not 5% larger than FF? 10%? 100% larger? The constraint is the size and cost. So in that regard, FF is one of many options along an infinite number of possible configurations.
I disagree, and so does this reviewer: https://nofilmschool.com/2014/08/crop-factor-sensor-size-zack-arias-dedpxl

Pretty amazing what you learn with Google. BTW something can happen in history and still be arbitrary. It's like... arbitrary things happen, you know?
I'm not sure that article settles anything. Mostly, he sounds like a spoiled brat who thinks the industry should shift for his convenience. But also, apparently he thinks the world revolves around cinema frame sizes.

The fact remains - when digital SLRs first came out, there were a lot of people out there with 35mm film cameras and lenses. In order to continue using their lenses and get the same results - FOV, DOF etc, they wanted a full frame sensor. This was no small problem. You could use APSC, but that meant the wider angles you were used to were less wide and the apertures you used to use are now providing a different DOF to the images you're producing. I know I waited until full frame sensors (D600) became reasonably priced before I bought a DSLR precisely because I wanted to use my lenses that I already had.

So the choice of 135 frame size for digital sensors was anything but arbitrary - it was intentional due to an industry standard. You can't argue with that reason and it wasn't arbitrary. You would have to go back and question the wisdom of using it in the film days and ask why they chose that frame size and why it became so mainstream.

You can of course ask, "why didn't we use that point in history to make a jump to a larger sensor? After all, so many folks ended up buying new lenses for digital anyhow. Would have been a good time to shake things up..."

But then what is the answer to that? Maybe you know that one already?
You're missing the point of the argument. OF COURSE the reason for the size of FF sensor is because of the historical precedent, surely nobody thinks that there should be random sensor and lens sizes of every combination.
Glad you're finally coming to that conclusion.
If that were the case no two cameras would be interchangeable (btw, this pretty much still only applies to the same mount system, but I digress). What my point was in response to the argument that there was an inherent advantage to the specific FF dimension. That's what I am saying is arbitrary because it is not an inherent advantage until after the whole system was created around it. At this point, you could say that every system that was developed is exactly the best size because it actually works with the lenses available, and no one would argue with that. Probably.
Not exactly. I think you're mixing two things up.

First, saying "arbitrary because it is not an an inherent advantage" doesn't really follow. What is arbitrary? the frame size? To be arbitrary would imply someone just kind of picked it out of nowhere. But in fact, they were entirely deliberate. There was an inherent advantage to it before it was created because it immediately fit with an existing workflow. This was foresight, not hindsight. So nothing arbitrary that I can think of apply to it.

Perhaps you're trying to say that 35mm full frame doesn't have any particular advantage or reason for being promoted other than the fact that it was designed to match an existing workflow? That might work for me.

And to say that every system that was developed is exactly the best size because it works with available lenses doesn't quite work either.

4/3s was designed for digital from the start - no historical film size to match.

APS sizes seem to vary a bit. I don't think there were a lot of APS SLRs out there and most of them used full frame lenses, so no need to match a large installation of film APS cameras and lenses.

Medium Format has sensor sizes all over the place and I think very few match previous film frames.
IIRC, the basic premise for 2:3 was because it was quite close to the "golden ratio." The problem is, these days people no longer think of that as being necessarily more aesthetically pleasing than any other ratio as perceptions have moved on. I think where you misunderstand me is that I am not saying 35mm is any worse, it's fine, it's that I am saying that for me, I would not care if we had evolved a 5:7 ratio, or a 13:17, ratio. And I do actually like 4/3 aspect ratio mind you, although PERSONALLY I prefer a slightly larger sensor because I find that I can still manage APS-C without complaining too much. I've tried MF and at that point, for me, its no longer quite as comfortable. But the guy next to me is much bigger and does weight lifting. So who's to say it's not better for him?
I agree about 4/3. I get great results from my Fuji APS-C although I think I got slightly better results from my A7. And I think I would love the results from D850 or similar. But want and need are two different things, yes?
 
Why use a fast lens then lose a stop with a 1.4x teleconverter or two stops with a 2x teleconverter? You would have been just as well off with a 1.5x or 1.6x crop body.
You meant - as worse off?
 
Special equipment adds costs but the primary reason is because the lower number of chips you get out of a same size wafer. If the chip is twice as big it's gonna cost twice as much at least. Also bigger chips have lower yield, lower wafer utilization efficiency. Also, the market is smaller so there is less economy of scale.
 
Why use a fast lens then lose a stop with a 1.4x teleconverter or two stops with a 2x teleconverter? You would have been just as well off with a 1.5x or 1.6x crop body.
You meant - as worse off?
The point is that even though a 1.5x or 1.6x crop factor body may have a slight loss of light with the same lens and slightly less dynamic range than a so-called full-frame body with the same lens, when you add a teleconverter to the full-frame body to get back to the same focal length of the cropped image, you sacrifice whatever advantage might have been there.

If you need the additional telephoto to fill the frame with the subject, you are just as well off or just as disadvantaged by using the crop factor body in the first place. Each additional element you add to the original lens is just another potential source of issue in terms of I.Q.

I find no substantial differences in using my 1.5x crop Nikons with a given lens than in using my full-frame Nikons with the same lens and a 1.4x teleconverter in terms of image quality. I do, however, find that not having to carry the additional weight of a substantial tripod and head makes my crop-factor body advantageous for much of my wildlife photography.

Best regards,

Lin
 
Why use a fast lens then lose a stop with a 1.4x teleconverter or two stops with a 2x teleconverter? You would have been just as well off with a 1.5x or 1.6x crop body.
You meant - as worse off?
The point is that even though a 1.5x or 1.6x crop factor body may have a slight loss of light with the same lens and slightly less dynamic range than a so-called full-frame body with the same lens, when you add a teleconverter to the full-frame body to get back to the same focal length of the cropped image, you sacrifice whatever advantage might have been there.
This is just another way to say that they are more less the same. On the other hand, you do not have to use a teleconverter all the time...
If you need the additional telephoto to fill the frame with the subject, you are just as well off or just as disadvantaged by using the crop factor body in the first place. Each additional element you add to the original lens is just another potential source of issue in terms of I.Q.
So is cropping, as you said yourself.
I find no substantial differences in using my 1.5x crop Nikons with a given lens than in using my full-frame Nikons with the same lens and a 1.4x teleconverter in terms of image quality.
So, more or less the same...
I do, however, find that not having to carry the additional weight of a substantial tripod and head makes my crop-factor body advantageous for much of my wildlife photography.
How heavy are your teleconverters?
 
Why use a fast lens then lose a stop with a 1.4x teleconverter or two stops with a 2x teleconverter? You would have been just as well off with a 1.5x or 1.6x crop body.
You meant - as worse off?
The point is that even though a 1.5x or 1.6x crop factor body may have a slight loss of light with the same lens and slightly less dynamic range than a so-called full-frame body with the same lens, when you add a teleconverter to the full-frame body to get back to the same focal length of the cropped image, you sacrifice whatever advantage might have been there.
This is just another way to say that they are more less the same. On the other hand, you do not have to use a teleconverter all the time...
The point is that I can't know apriori whether I will or won't need the teleconverter and with the crop-factor body it's a non-issue.
If you need the additional telephoto to fill the frame with the subject, you are just as well off or just as disadvantaged by using the crop factor body in the first place. Each additional element you add to the original lens is just another potential source of issue in terms of I.Q.
So is cropping, as you said yourself.
I find no substantial differences in using my 1.5x crop Nikons with a given lens than in using my full-frame Nikons with the same lens and a 1.4x teleconverter in terms of image quality.
So, more or less the same...
More or less except for the difference in adding another potential source of I.Q. degeneration.
I do, however, find that not having to carry the additional weight of a substantial tripod and head makes my crop-factor body advantageous for much of my wildlife photography.
How heavy are your teleconverters?
It's not the teleconverter which is heavy, it's the fact that I can carry a crop-factor body with an excellent 60-600mm lens which I can hand-hold giving me 900 mm FOV. To get the approximate same FOV with my full-frame body I need my 800 mm lens and teleconverter which also requires a tripod and head. Yes I could get 840mm with a 1.4x teleconverter and the same lens with my full-frame body, and it might seem that the 60mm difference is inconsequential, but it isn't.

I've tried it both ways and since the vast majority of my wildlife shooting is at very high altitudes, every ounce of weight savings is important. I can not carry a tripod and head plus the camera and necessary survival equipment at altitudes over 13,000 feet. The differences in I.Q. between my Nikon D7200 and my Nikon D750 without a teleconverter are inconsequential. I much prefer my D7200 for wildlife. I've heard all the arguments for full-frame and neither my Canon full-frames nor Nikon full-frame bodies give me any substantial improvement in overall I.Q. over my crop-factor bodies.

Each to his own choices. My choices are crop-factor bodies.

Best regards,

Lin
 
Why use a fast lens then lose a stop with a 1.4x teleconverter or two stops with a 2x teleconverter? You would have been just as well off with a 1.5x or 1.6x crop body.
You meant - as worse off?
The point is that even though a 1.5x or 1.6x crop factor body may have a slight loss of light with the same lens and slightly less dynamic range than a so-called full-frame body with the same lens, when you add a teleconverter to the full-frame body to get back to the same focal length of the cropped image, you sacrifice whatever advantage might have been there.
This is just another way to say that they are more less the same. On the other hand, you do not have to use a teleconverter all the time...
The point is that I can't know apriori whether I will or won't need the teleconverter and with the crop-factor body it's a non-issue.
You lose the "wide" end. With a high mp FF sensor, you have both.
If you need the additional telephoto to fill the frame with the subject, you are just as well off or just as disadvantaged by using the crop factor body in the first place. Each additional element you add to the original lens is just another potential source of issue in terms of I.Q.
So is cropping, as you said yourself.
I find no substantial differences in using my 1.5x crop Nikons with a given lens than in using my full-frame Nikons with the same lens and a 1.4x teleconverter in terms of image quality.
So, more or less the same...
More or less except for the difference in adding another potential source of I.Q. degeneration.
Cropping does more or less the same, so...
I do, however, find that not having to carry the additional weight of a substantial tripod and head makes my crop-factor body advantageous for much of my wildlife photography.
How heavy are your teleconverters?
It's not the teleconverter which is heavy, it's the fact that I can carry a crop-factor body with an excellent 60-600mm lens which I can hand-hold giving me 900 mm FOV. To get the approximate same FOV with my full-frame body I need my 800 mm lens and teleconverter which also requires a tripod and head.
No, this is not true. What the crop body does it to... well, crop. You can do that with an FF camera as well. Depending on the pixel density, the crop body can give you better resolution but not really 1.5x or 1.6x better. All those calculations based on the crop factor are very misleading.
Yes I could get 840mm with a 1.4x teleconverter and the same lens with my full-frame body, and it might seem that the 60mm difference is inconsequential, but it isn't.

I've tried it both ways and since the vast majority of my wildlife shooting is at very high altitudes, every ounce of weight savings is important. I can not carry a tripod and head plus the camera and necessary survival equipment at altitudes over 13,000 feet. The differences in I.Q. between my Nikon D7200 and my Nikon D750 without a teleconverter are inconsequential. I much prefer my D7200 for wildlife. I've heard all the arguments for full-frame and neither my Canon full-frames nor Nikon full-frame bodies give me any substantial improvement in overall I.Q. over my crop-factor bodies.
I am not talking about substantial improvement when you are FL limited. I am saying that you are not gaining much even without a teleconverter and you are getting more or less the same with one.
Each to his own choices. My choices are crop-factor bodies.
Fine, no problem with that.
 
I think that's not the case. If an APS-C camera is $900 and the almost the same camera but with an FF sensor is $1900, you can't account $1000 difference entirely for the difference in sensor costs.

How much a modern desktop CPU costs? Not very much and it's done with newer and better technology process.
Well, divide the surface area of a FF chip by an APS-C then you get the wafer yield. Then add in maybe 20% increased failure rate for the increased surface area and you have the relative cost of a FF chip versus an APS chip. Of course, that doesn't tell you actual cost, only relative cost difference.
 
I just stumbled across the article about the new Nikon Z50 and why it is APS-C again … .

One of the reasons why sensors larger than APS-C format are so expensive is the need for special equipment to manufacture them.

Semiconductor manufacturing consists out of a a group of steps that are run again and again to form the separate layers (about 20 to 40 or more depending on technology) on top of the silicon to manufacture a semiconductor chip or a CMOS sensor.

These steps for each layer are in a very generalized description:
1 deposition of a layer onto the silicon wafer (a siliconoxide, siliconnitride, polysilicon, metal or an isolating layer)
2. coating with photoresist
3. exposure with a photomask which contains the layout for this layer
4. developing of the photoresist
5. etching of the deposited layer
5b or implanting some ions to create differently conductive areas
6. cleaning.

Rinse and repeat for each layer. 20 to 40 times. Each step may include several single steps. It takes 4 to 8 weeks to manufacture a single wafer full of chips.

Steps 2 to 4 are called lithography. One of the most expensive piece of equipment for semiconductor manufacturing is a so called lithography stepper or scanner, it is the exposure tool in step 3. One of these tools will sell for about €5million up to €50million for a high end tool. A plant (a fab) will use dozens of them.

Lithography stepers or scanners are some kind of giant projector that demagnify the photomask onto the silicon surface that is coated with a photoresist. These tools use the most accurate mechanics and high end optics that are currently manufactured. Lenses of up to a meter in length consisting out of dozens of elements, several 10cm across.

And these optics are made to illuminate an area of roughly 33mm x 26mm. This is the largest chip size that can normally be manufactured and is a rough standard in semiconductor manufacturing. This area is illuminated step by step across the wafer surface to create a wafer full of chips.

APS-C is roughly 25mmx17mm. APS-H is 30mm x 17mm. Both will fit into this illuminated area of a standard stepper.

Canon created steppers in the early 2000s that can illuminate larger areas. That was the birth of full frame (well 35mm frame) sensors. But these tools are not as highly developed as the steppers and scanners that are used for high end semiconductor manufacturing with smaller illuminated areas.

So, nearly every fab that can do semiconductors can do APS-C sensors. But to do larger chips one needs different equipment.

This is one of the main reasosns that makes full frame sensors expensive.

I work in semiconductor manufacturing for 25 years now. Have done lithography, sensors, ASICs, manufacturing, technology development, circuit design and now failure analysis. I am always amazed that all this stuff works nearly all the time :-o
Unless one needs a very short depth of field or needs a very wide angle, the advantages of the 1.5 or 1.6 crop factor is a very compelling thing for those who shoot wildlife.
It's not. Most winners of wildlife photography contest were shooting with FF cameras. Using an APS-C over FF with the same lens would mean a loss in image quality. You can obtain the same if you crop from FF or use a teleconverter.

If you care about IQ, you would use a proper lens and get closer to your subject.

If you don't, maybe you are better off with an 100x superzoom camera.
Sorry to be blunt, but you simply do not know what you are talking about. As I said, I have both so-called "full-frame" and crop factor cameras - lots of them as well as high-end professional lenses. There is no significant differences in image quality between my crop-factor bodies and my full-frame bodies. I've been shooting wildlife all over the world with digital cameras since digital cameras were available.

Obviously you have never done serious wildlife photography or you would realize that you rarely have the "choice" of getting closer to the subject. Wildlife does not stand and pose for your pleasure nor does it wait for you to get closer or to connect your "proper lens" to your tripod and head. Teleconverters rarely are a solution. Why use a fast lens then lose a stop with a 1.4x teleconverter or two stops with a 2x teleconverter? You would have been just as well off with a 1.5x or 1.6x crop body.
There is much more to wildlife photography than arm-chair philosophy and logic. As for using superzoom cameras - sometimes it's a very useful solution because a decent shot with a superzoom of an elusive subject is better than no shot with your "proper lens" solution and "get closer" attitude...

Lin
Having no shot is better than having a very poor shot. Not all shots are meant to be taken. Using a teleconverter or cropping from a high resolution FF will degrade image quality as much as using an lesser sensor. If you are after worse IQ, than that might be a solution.

To get good images of wildlife one has to use the the proper lens and to be close enough to his subject.

As Robert Capa said, "If your pictures aren’t good enough, you aren’t close enough”. Maybe he was an armchair photographer, too.

I have nothing against you having fun with your superzooms, but stating that is a good recipe for getting good wild life shots, I find it a terrible.
 
I do, however, find that not having to carry the additional weight of a substantial tripod and head makes my crop-factor body advantageous for much of my wildlife photography.

Best regards,

Lin
I find that using the proper tools for the job at hand always gives the best results for me.

If you worry about weight, why not use a mobile phone? IQ should be fine, since the sensor size difference does not matter to you.
 
I think that's not the case. If an APS-C camera is $900 and the almost the same camera but with an FF sensor is $1900, you can't account $1000 difference entirely for the difference in sensor costs.

How much a modern desktop CPU costs? Not very much and it's done with newer and better technology process.
Well, divide the surface area of a FF chip by an APS-C then you get the wafer yield. Then add in maybe 20% increased failure rate for the increased surface area and you have the relative cost of a FF chip versus an APS chip. Of course, that doesn't tell you actual cost, only relative cost difference.
Even if a FF sensor is 2x or 3x more expensive as an APS-C sensor, that in itself can't make a FF camera 2x or 3x more expensive. Since the sensor is just a part of total manufacturing costs.
 
I think that's not the case. If an APS-C camera is $900 and the almost the same camera but with an FF sensor is $1900, you can't account $1000 difference entirely for the difference in sensor costs.

How much a modern desktop CPU costs? Not very much and it's done with newer and better technology process.
Well, divide the surface area of a FF chip by an APS-C then you get the wafer yield. Then add in maybe 20% increased failure rate for the increased surface area and you have the relative cost of a FF chip versus an APS chip. Of course, that doesn't tell you actual cost, only relative cost difference.
Even if a FF sensor is 2x or 3x more expensive as an APS-C sensor, that in itself can't make a FF camera 2x or 3x more expensive. Since the sensor is just a part of total manufacturing costs.
Cost and price are very different things
 
I just stumbled across the article about the new Nikon Z50 and why it is APS-C again … .

One of the reasons why sensors larger than APS-C format are so expensive is the need for special equipment to manufacture them.

Semiconductor manufacturing consists out of a a group of steps that are run again and again to form the separate layers (about 20 to 40 or more depending on technology) on top of the silicon to manufacture a semiconductor chip or a CMOS sensor.

These steps for each layer are in a very generalized description:
1 deposition of a layer onto the silicon wafer (a siliconoxide, siliconnitride, polysilicon, metal or an isolating layer)
2. coating with photoresist
3. exposure with a photomask which contains the layout for this layer
4. developing of the photoresist
5. etching of the deposited layer
5b or implanting some ions to create differently conductive areas
6. cleaning.

Rinse and repeat for each layer. 20 to 40 times. Each step may include several single steps. It takes 4 to 8 weeks to manufacture a single wafer full of chips.

Steps 2 to 4 are called lithography. One of the most expensive piece of equipment for semiconductor manufacturing is a so called lithography stepper or scanner, it is the exposure tool in step 3. One of these tools will sell for about €5million up to €50million for a high end tool. A plant (a fab) will use dozens of them.

Lithography stepers or scanners are some kind of giant projector that demagnify the photomask onto the silicon surface that is coated with a photoresist. These tools use the most accurate mechanics and high end optics that are currently manufactured. Lenses of up to a meter in length consisting out of dozens of elements, several 10cm across.

And these optics are made to illuminate an area of roughly 33mm x 26mm. This is the largest chip size that can normally be manufactured and is a rough standard in semiconductor manufacturing. This area is illuminated step by step across the wafer surface to create a wafer full of chips.

APS-C is roughly 25mmx17mm. APS-H is 30mm x 17mm. Both will fit into this illuminated area of a standard stepper.

Canon created steppers in the early 2000s that can illuminate larger areas. That was the birth of full frame (well 35mm frame) sensors. But these tools are not as highly developed as the steppers and scanners that are used for high end semiconductor manufacturing with smaller illuminated areas.

So, nearly every fab that can do semiconductors can do APS-C sensors. But to do larger chips one needs different equipment.

This is one of the main reasosns that makes full frame sensors expensive.

I work in semiconductor manufacturing for 25 years now. Have done lithography, sensors, ASICs, manufacturing, technology development, circuit design and now failure analysis. I am always amazed that all this stuff works nearly all the time :-o
Unless one needs a very short depth of field or needs a very wide angle, the advantages of the 1.5 or 1.6 crop factor is a very compelling thing for those who shoot wildlife.
It's not. Most winners of wildlife photography contest were shooting with FF cameras. Using an APS-C over FF with the same lens would mean a loss in image quality. You can obtain the same if you crop from FF or use a teleconverter.

If you care about IQ, you would use a proper lens and get closer to your subject.

If you don't, maybe you are better off with an 100x superzoom camera.
Sorry to be blunt, but you simply do not know what you are talking about. As I said, I have both so-called "full-frame" and crop factor cameras - lots of them as well as high-end professional lenses. There is no significant differences in image quality between my crop-factor bodies and my full-frame bodies. I've been shooting wildlife all over the world with digital cameras since digital cameras were available.

Obviously you have never done serious wildlife photography or you would realize that you rarely have the "choice" of getting closer to the subject. Wildlife does not stand and pose for your pleasure nor does it wait for you to get closer or to connect your "proper lens" to your tripod and head. Teleconverters rarely are a solution. Why use a fast lens then lose a stop with a 1.4x teleconverter or two stops with a 2x teleconverter? You would have been just as well off with a 1.5x or 1.6x crop body.
There is much more to wildlife photography than arm-chair philosophy and logic. As for using superzoom cameras - sometimes it's a very useful solution because a decent shot with a superzoom of an elusive subject is better than no shot with your "proper lens" solution and "get closer" attitude...

Lin
Having no shot is better than having a very poor shot. Not all shots are meant to be taken. Using a teleconverter or cropping from a high resolution FF will degrade image quality as much as using an lesser sensor. If you are after worse IQ, than that might be a solution.
Why do you keep chattering as if you have a clue about what is or is not possible with a camera you obviously have zero experience with? Who told you that having a shot with a superzoom has to be a "poor shot?"
To get good images of wildlife one has to use the the proper lens and to be close enough to his subject.
Sorry, but you simply don't know anything about shooting wildlife and that's becoming more and more obvious when you make these broad generalizations.
As Robert Capa said, "If your pictures aren’t good enough, you aren’t close enough”. Maybe he was an armchair photographer, too.
I'm not interested in what "Robert Capa" said because I don't have the problem with my images being not "good enough."
I have nothing against you having fun with your superzooms, but stating that is a good recipe for getting good wild life shots, I find it a terrible.
Don't put words in my mouth which I didn't say - it' only proves you can't read.

Lin
 
I just stumbled across the article about the new Nikon Z50 and why it is APS-C again … .

One of the reasons why sensors larger than APS-C format are so expensive is the need for special equipment to manufacture them.

Semiconductor manufacturing consists out of a a group of steps that are run again and again to form the separate layers (about 20 to 40 or more depending on technology) on top of the silicon to manufacture a semiconductor chip or a CMOS sensor.

These steps for each layer are in a very generalized description:
1 deposition of a layer onto the silicon wafer (a siliconoxide, siliconnitride, polysilicon, metal or an isolating layer)
2. coating with photoresist
3. exposure with a photomask which contains the layout for this layer
4. developing of the photoresist
5. etching of the deposited layer
5b or implanting some ions to create differently conductive areas
6. cleaning.

Rinse and repeat for each layer. 20 to 40 times. Each step may include several single steps. It takes 4 to 8 weeks to manufacture a single wafer full of chips.

Steps 2 to 4 are called lithography. One of the most expensive piece of equipment for semiconductor manufacturing is a so called lithography stepper or scanner, it is the exposure tool in step 3. One of these tools will sell for about €5million up to €50million for a high end tool. A plant (a fab) will use dozens of them.

Lithography stepers or scanners are some kind of giant projector that demagnify the photomask onto the silicon surface that is coated with a photoresist. These tools use the most accurate mechanics and high end optics that are currently manufactured. Lenses of up to a meter in length consisting out of dozens of elements, several 10cm across.

And these optics are made to illuminate an area of roughly 33mm x 26mm. This is the largest chip size that can normally be manufactured and is a rough standard in semiconductor manufacturing. This area is illuminated step by step across the wafer surface to create a wafer full of chips.

APS-C is roughly 25mmx17mm. APS-H is 30mm x 17mm. Both will fit into this illuminated area of a standard stepper.

Canon created steppers in the early 2000s that can illuminate larger areas. That was the birth of full frame (well 35mm frame) sensors. But these tools are not as highly developed as the steppers and scanners that are used for high end semiconductor manufacturing with smaller illuminated areas.

So, nearly every fab that can do semiconductors can do APS-C sensors. But to do larger chips one needs different equipment.

This is one of the main reasosns that makes full frame sensors expensive.

I work in semiconductor manufacturing for 25 years now. Have done lithography, sensors, ASICs, manufacturing, technology development, circuit design and now failure analysis. I am always amazed that all this stuff works nearly all the time :-o
Unless one needs a very short depth of field or needs a very wide angle, the advantages of the 1.5 or 1.6 crop factor is a very compelling thing for those who shoot wildlife.
It's not. Most winners of wildlife photography contest were shooting with FF cameras. Using an APS-C over FF with the same lens would mean a loss in image quality. You can obtain the same if you crop from FF or use a teleconverter.

If you care about IQ, you would use a proper lens and get closer to your subject.

If you don't, maybe you are better off with an 100x superzoom camera.
Sorry to be blunt, but you simply do not know what you are talking about. As I said, I have both so-called "full-frame" and crop factor cameras - lots of them as well as high-end professional lenses. There is no significant differences in image quality between my crop-factor bodies and my full-frame bodies. I've been shooting wildlife all over the world with digital cameras since digital cameras were available.

Obviously you have never done serious wildlife photography or you would realize that you rarely have the "choice" of getting closer to the subject. Wildlife does not stand and pose for your pleasure nor does it wait for you to get closer or to connect your "proper lens" to your tripod and head. Teleconverters rarely are a solution. Why use a fast lens then lose a stop with a 1.4x teleconverter or two stops with a 2x teleconverter? You would have been just as well off with a 1.5x or 1.6x crop body.
There is much more to wildlife photography than arm-chair philosophy and logic. As for using superzoom cameras - sometimes it's a very useful solution because a decent shot with a superzoom of an elusive subject is better than no shot with your "proper lens" solution and "get closer" attitude...

Lin
Having no shot is better than having a very poor shot. Not all shots are meant to be taken. Using a teleconverter or cropping from a high resolution FF will degrade image quality as much as using an lesser sensor. If you are after worse IQ, than that might be a solution.
Why do you keep chattering as if you have a clue about what is or is not possible with a camera you obviously have zero experience with? Who told you that having a shot with a superzoom has to be a "poor shot?"
To get good images of wildlife one has to use the the proper lens and to be close enough to his subject.
Sorry, but you simply don't know anything about shooting wildlife and that's becoming more and more obvious when you make these broad generalizations.
As Robert Capa said, "If your pictures aren’t good enough, you aren’t close enough”. Maybe he was an armchair photographer, too.
I'm not interested in what "Robert Capa" said because I don't have the problem with my images being not "good enough."
I have nothing against you having fun with your superzooms, but stating that is a good recipe for getting good wild life shots, I find it a terrible.
Don't put words in my mouth which I didn't say - it' only proves you can't read.

Lin
You are funny. Thanks for making me smile. :D
 
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