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Futuristic,unattainable Global Shutter vs Boring 1/320 flash synch speed

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Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.
Click to expand...
There may be limits here you aren't thinking of.

If the goal is to quench sunlight to change the balance of power between the sunlight and the flash, specifically to make the flash seem more powerful, this "any speed" thing isn't really true. Most flashes are around 1/800th at full power. If you shorten your shutter speed below that, you'll start quenching the light from the flash as well.

Now, if your goal is to freeze motion, and your flash is powerful enough when it's pulse is, say 1/4000th (around 1/4-1/8th power), then you're still okay. The same goes for shallow DOF though a simple ND filter will make that available today.
Click to expand...
If I am able to fill flash during a sunny day at F16 ISO100 1/100 (sunny 16 rule) or even easier for flash at F5.6 ISO100 1/800 ( if we imagine flash power starts to decrease at 1/800s) then you agree that it will work for faster shutter speed ? Balance of flash ambient light will remin the same at higher ss.
Click to expand...
The same - no real improvement.
Member said:
My conclusion is that it is highly feasible !! Of course this depends on subject distance for instance but in many cases the flash could help.
Click to expand...
The flash helps at 1/200th or 1/250th. It would help more at 1/800th but not much more beyond that.
 
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.
Click to expand...
There may be limits here you aren't thinking of.

If the goal is to quench sunlight to change the balance of power between the sunlight and the flash, specifically to make the flash seem more powerful, this "any speed" thing isn't really true. Most flashes are around 1/800th at full power. If you shorten your shutter speed below that, you'll start quenching the light from the flash as well.

Now, if your goal is to freeze motion, and your flash is powerful enough when it's pulse is, say 1/4000th (around 1/4-1/8th power), then you're still okay. The same goes for shallow DOF though a simple ND filter will make that available today.
Click to expand...
My estimate is that for instance with my ultra small flash ef-x8 (guide number 8 meters), the flash will be efficient until 2-3 meters for fill flash.
Click to expand...
Well, my GN58 flash has trouble with fill at 3m and 1/250th, so I doubt that unless the sun is somewhat obscured.
 
tbcass said:
tony field said:
If you really want a global shutter, go and buy a nice old Nikon D1 series camera. Such is the virtue of the ancient CCD sensors.
Click to expand...
Good point.
Click to expand...
BUT it only reached a 1/500 sync speed. The shutter still has to mechanically move. So you get a stop above average sync speeds today. That's a lot of compromise to get that stop
tbcass said:
In addition CCD sensors, due to the fact that the whole sensor exposes at once rather than sequentially, are immune to the "jello effect".
Click to expand...
Maybe that is the key to a global shutter. Going back to CCD but so far no manufacturer has been able to develop one. I am sure there is a reason for that
tbcass said:
--
Tom
Click to expand...
 
Christof21 said:
tko said:
Christof21 said:
tko said:
They already use titanium, carbon fiber, and other exotic materials. It is hard to make a mechanical device move that fast. Many of the jet plane speed and elevation records were set decades ago for the same reason. Mechanical things are at a pretty high plateau.

Besides, does it matter?
Click to expand...
Yes !
Member said:
You can use HSS for any shutter speed you want.
Click to expand...
I wsnt to be able to ue the minimal gear, whether it is already included with the body or not. With my Fuji x-e3, this is external but it does not need extra batteries and is very small. I have it always with me, it does not take place.

I understand the op and wish we will have global shutter soon.
Click to expand...
Your minimal gear will not enough enough power to compete with the sun at fast shutter speeds, no matter what the shutter is doing. Dream on.
Click to expand...
I made an estimate in this thread and I have a different conclusion.
Click to expand...
That's feasible anyway - use an ND filter.
Member said:
Of course the flash would be more limited but could be usefull in many cases. For instance, portrait with flash in a sunny day with shallow dof and high speed speed perfectly feasible !
I disagree with your post, this is simply not correct.
Click to expand...
But your estimate is in conflict with my experience actually doing this with a far more powerful flash.
 
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.
Click to expand...
There may be limits here you aren't thinking of.

If the goal is to quench sunlight to change the balance of power between the sunlight and the flash, specifically to make the flash seem more powerful, this "any speed" thing isn't really true. Most flashes are around 1/800th at full power. If you shorten your shutter speed below that, you'll start quenching the light from the flash as well.

Now, if your goal is to freeze motion, and your flash is powerful enough when it's pulse is, say 1/4000th (around 1/4-1/8th power), then you're still okay. The same goes for shallow DOF though a simple ND filter will make that available today.
Click to expand...
If I am able to fill flash during a sunny day at F16 ISO100 1/100 (sunny 16 rule) or even easier for flash at F5.6 ISO100 1/800 ( if we imagine flash power starts to decrease at 1/800s) then you agree that it will work for faster shutter speed ? Balance of flash ambient light will remin the same at higher ss.
Click to expand...
The same - no real improvement.
Lee Jay said:
My conclusion is that it is highly feasible !! Of course this depends on subject distance for instance but in many cases the flash could help.
Click to expand...
The flash helps at 1/200th or 1/250th. It would help more at 1/800th but not much more beyond that.
Click to expand...
But I can go beyond that shutter speed, that is my point...
If I manage to use the fill flash at ISO100 1/800 f/5.6 then I will be able to use it at ISO100 1/3200 f/2.8 and the fill flash will have the same effect.
So I think a simple flash will be powerfull enough in many cases to be used in sunny days with high shutter speed.
 
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.
Click to expand...
There may be limits here you aren't thinking of.

If the goal is to quench sunlight to change the balance of power between the sunlight and the flash, specifically to make the flash seem more powerful, this "any speed" thing isn't really true. Most flashes are around 1/800th at full power. If you shorten your shutter speed below that, you'll start quenching the light from the flash as well.

Now, if your goal is to freeze motion, and your flash is powerful enough when it's pulse is, say 1/4000th (around 1/4-1/8th power), then you're still okay. The same goes for shallow DOF though a simple ND filter will make that available today.
Click to expand...
If I am able to fill flash during a sunny day at F16 ISO100 1/100 (sunny 16 rule) or even easier for flash at F5.6 ISO100 1/800 ( if we imagine flash power starts to decrease at 1/800s) then you agree that it will work for faster shutter speed ? Balance of flash ambient light will remin the same at higher ss.
Click to expand...
The same - no real improvement.
Member said:
My conclusion is that it is highly feasible !! Of course this depends on subject distance for instance but in many cases the flash could help.
Click to expand...
The flash helps at 1/200th or 1/250th. It would help more at 1/800th but not much more beyond that.
Click to expand...
But I can go beyond that shutter speed, that is my point...
Click to expand...
Yeah, and start to quench the flash too.
Member said:
If I manage to use the fill flash at ISO100 1/800 f/5.6 then I will be able to use it at ISO100 1/3200 f/2.8 and the fill flash will have the same effect.
Click to expand...
If that difference is needed to stop motion, yes, but in that case you could also use HSS.
Member said:
So I think a simple flash will be powerfull enough in many cases to be used in sunny days with high shutter speed.
Click to expand...
As long as you're really, really close, like 1-3 meters.
 
golfhov said:
tbcass said:
tony field said:
If you really want a global shutter, go and buy a nice old Nikon D1 series camera. Such is the virtue of the ancient CCD sensors.
Click to expand...
Good point.
Click to expand...
BUT it only reached a 1/500 sync speed. The shutter still has to mechanically move. So you get a stop above average sync speeds today. That's a lot of compromise to get that stop
Click to expand...
the only function of the mechanical shutter was to get out of the way so that the global shutter could fire. 1/500 was "misinformation". Any indicated shutter speed could be used with flash. Using 1/500 global shutter would usually ensure that on camera or Studio flash flash duration would not be clipped.
golfhov said:
golfhov said:
In addition CCD sensors, due to the fact that the whole sensor exposes at once rather than sequentially, are immune to the "jello effect".
Click to expand...
Maybe that is the key to a global shutter. Going back to CCD but so far no manufacturer has been able to develop one. I am sure there is a reason for that
Click to expand...
--
Charles Darwin: "ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
tony
http://www.tphoto.ca
 
Last edited:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.

5 years ago,the then Brand new D800 was able to synch at 1/320 sec...why are we actually regressing to 2/3 stop slower synch speeds in the Z bodies?Currently only the S1R is capable of even 1/320 unless we move into MF territory with the 1/2000 leaf shutter lenses of the X1D.

Sure,I would love a Jet engine in my car too,but I'll settle for more horsepower in my piston engine in the meantime-why haven't the manufacturer's progressed in shutter technology?
Click to expand...
There's a tradeoff between ruggedness, motion blur, and materials capabilities. The faster the shutter curtain travel the more robust the the mechanism, and the higher the accelerations. The acceleration profiling that has to be done to reduce shutter shake to levels acceptable for high resolution cameras is a Red Queen scenario - having to run faster and faster just to stay in the same (apparent) place.

So my point is that shutter technology has progressed - but sensor technology has as well. With the Zs, who knows why sync is slower - but it could have been the combination of a lighter body as well as positioning it not quite at D850 performance levels that called for the reduction.
 
tony field said:
golfhov said:
tbcass said:
tony field said:
If you really want a global shutter, go and buy a nice old Nikon D1 series camera. Such is the virtue of the ancient CCD sensors.
Click to expand...
Good point.
Click to expand...
BUT it only reached a 1/500 sync speed. The shutter still has to mechanically move. So you get a stop above average sync speeds today. That's a lot of compromise to get that stop
Click to expand...
the only function of the mechanical shutter was to get out of the way so that the global shutter could fire. 1/500 was "misinformation". Any indicated shutter speed could be used with flash. Using 1/500 global shutter would usually ensure that on camera or Studio flash flash duration would not be clipped.
Click to expand...
That is correct.

Nikon took a conservative approach and indeed only "spec'd" it @ 1/500s. But users found it could work much higher, (but indeed eventually limited by strobe pulse-width).
tony field said:
tony field said:
tony field said:
In addition CCD sensors, due to the fact that the whole sensor exposes at once rather than sequentially, are immune to the "jello effect".
Click to expand...
Maybe that is the key to a global shutter. Going back to CCD but so far no manufacturer has been able to develop one. I am sure there is a reason for that
Click to expand...
--
Charles Darwin: "ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
tony
http://www.tphoto.ca
Click to expand...
 
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.
Click to expand...
There may be limits here you aren't thinking of.

If the goal is to quench sunlight to change the balance of power between the sunlight and the flash, specifically to make the flash seem more powerful, this "any speed" thing isn't really true. Most flashes are around 1/800th at full power. If you shorten your shutter speed below that, you'll start quenching the light from the flash as well.

Now, if your goal is to freeze motion, and your flash is powerful enough when it's pulse is, say 1/4000th (around 1/4-1/8th power), then you're still okay. The same goes for shallow DOF though a simple ND filter will make that available today.
Click to expand...
If I am able to fill flash during a sunny day at F16 ISO100 1/100 (sunny 16 rule) or even easier for flash at F5.6 ISO100 1/800 ( if we imagine flash power starts to decrease at 1/800s) then you agree that it will work for faster shutter speed ? Balance of flash ambient light will remin the same at higher ss.
Click to expand...
The same - no real improvement.
Click to expand...
If course there is an "improvement" if you NEED f/5.6 DOF.
Lee Jay said:
Lee Jay said:
My conclusion is that it is highly feasible !! Of course this depends on subject distance for instance but in many cases the flash could help.
Click to expand...
The flash helps at 1/200th or 1/250th. It would help more at 1/800th but not much more beyond that.
Click to expand...
And you can even go to 1/4000s (@ f/2.8) and utilize the leading-edge pulse, (or reduced power). Albeit for closer subjects.

Note that you can even shoot 1/4000s @ f/16 and darken/blacken backgrounds, (in sunlight), while still utilizing the available power to correctly expose closer subjects.
 
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.
Click to expand...
There may be limits here you aren't thinking of.

If the goal is to quench sunlight to change the balance of power between the sunlight and the flash, specifically to make the flash seem more powerful, this "any speed" thing isn't really true. Most flashes are around 1/800th at full power. If you shorten your shutter speed below that, you'll start quenching the light from the flash as well.

Now, if your goal is to freeze motion, and your flash is powerful enough when it's pulse is, say 1/4000th (around 1/4-1/8th power), then you're still okay. The same goes for shallow DOF though a simple ND filter will make that available today.
Click to expand...
If I am able to fill flash during a sunny day at F16 ISO100 1/100 (sunny 16 rule) or even easier for flash at F5.6 ISO100 1/800 ( if we imagine flash power starts to decrease at 1/800s) then you agree that it will work for faster shutter speed ? Balance of flash ambient light will remin the same at higher ss.
Click to expand...
The same - no real improvement.
Member said:
My conclusion is that it is highly feasible !! Of course this depends on subject distance for instance but in many cases the flash could help.
Click to expand...
The flash helps at 1/200th or 1/250th. It would help more at 1/800th but not much more beyond that.
Click to expand...
But I can go beyond that shutter speed, that is my point...
If I manage to use the fill flash at ISO100 1/800 f/5.6 then I will be able to use it at ISO100 1/3200 f/2.8 and the fill flash will have the same effect.
So I think a simple flash will be powerfull enough in many cases to be used in sunny days with high shutter speed.
Click to expand...
I have stated many times I often use the FZ-1000 (built-in) flash to 20'.

Very, very convenient and fast. Never need to use (time-consuming) PP to lighten (noisy) shadows.
 
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.
Click to expand...
There may be limits here you aren't thinking of.

If the goal is to quench sunlight to change the balance of power between the sunlight and the flash, specifically to make the flash seem more powerful, this "any speed" thing isn't really true. Most flashes are around 1/800th at full power. If you shorten your shutter speed below that, you'll start quenching the light from the flash as well.

Now, if your goal is to freeze motion, and your flash is powerful enough when it's pulse is, say 1/4000th (around 1/4-1/8th power), then you're still okay. The same goes for shallow DOF though a simple ND filter will make that available today.
Click to expand...
If I am able to fill flash during a sunny day at F16 ISO100 1/100 (sunny 16 rule) or even easier for flash at F5.6 ISO100 1/800 ( if we imagine flash power starts to decrease at 1/800s) then you agree that it will work for faster shutter speed ? Balance of flash ambient light will remin the same at higher ss.
Click to expand...
The same - no real improvement.
Lee Jay said:
My conclusion is that it is highly feasible !! Of course this depends on subject distance for instance but in many cases the flash could help.
Click to expand...
The flash helps at 1/200th or 1/250th. It would help more at 1/800th but not much more beyond that.
Click to expand...
But I can go beyond that shutter speed, that is my point...
Click to expand...
Yeah, and start to quench the flash too.
Click to expand...
Well, your not "quenching" the flash .... just not fully utilizing the (much lower power) trailing edge of pulse-width.
Lee Jay said:
Lee Jay said:
If I manage to use the fill flash at ISO100 1/800 f/5.6 then I will be able to use it at ISO100 1/3200 f/2.8 and the fill flash will have the same effect.
Click to expand...
If that difference is needed to stop motion, yes, but in that case you could also use HSS.
Click to expand...
NO ... w/ HSS, you are already at a (lower) power penalty.
Lee Jay said:
Lee Jay said:
So I think a simple flash will be powerfull enough in many cases to be used in sunny days with high shutter speed.
Click to expand...
As long as you're really, really close, like 1-3 meters.
Click to expand...
Or 20' / 6.5-meters w/ FZ-1000, (and probably also RX).
 
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.
Click to expand...
There may be limits here you aren't thinking of.

If the goal is to quench sunlight to change the balance of power between the sunlight and the flash, specifically to make the flash seem more powerful, this "any speed" thing isn't really true. Most flashes are around 1/800th at full power. If you shorten your shutter speed below that, you'll start quenching the light from the flash as well.

Now, if your goal is to freeze motion, and your flash is powerful enough when it's pulse is, say 1/4000th (around 1/4-1/8th power), then you're still okay. The same goes for shallow DOF though a simple ND filter will make that available today.
Click to expand...
My estimate is that for instance with my ultra small flash ef-x8 (guide number 8 meters), the flash will be efficient until 2-3 meters for fill flash.
Click to expand...
Well, my GN58 flash has trouble with fill at 3m and 1/250th, so I doubt that unless the sun is somewhat obscured.
Click to expand...
Of course every strobe is different, (pulse-widths).

I can only state that I see no loss w/ FZ to 1/2000/3200s, but indeed about 1/2-stop @ 1/4000s. (GN-48)

NO Flash
NO Flash

w/ BUILT-IN FLASH
w/ BUILT-IN FLASH

NO Flash
NO Flash

w/ BUILT-IN FLASH
w/ BUILT-IN FLASH

NO Flash
NO Flash

w/ BUILT-IN FLASH
w/ BUILT-IN FLASH
 
Last edited:
PhotoTeach2 said:
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.
Click to expand...
There may be limits here you aren't thinking of.

If the goal is to quench sunlight to change the balance of power between the sunlight and the flash, specifically to make the flash seem more powerful, this "any speed" thing isn't really true. Most flashes are around 1/800th at full power. If you shorten your shutter speed below that, you'll start quenching the light from the flash as well.

Now, if your goal is to freeze motion, and your flash is powerful enough when it's pulse is, say 1/4000th (around 1/4-1/8th power), then you're still okay. The same goes for shallow DOF though a simple ND filter will make that available today.
Click to expand...
If I am able to fill flash during a sunny day at F16 ISO100 1/100 (sunny 16 rule) or even easier for flash at F5.6 ISO100 1/800 ( if we imagine flash power starts to decrease at 1/800s) then you agree that it will work for faster shutter speed ? Balance of flash ambient light will remin the same at higher ss.
Click to expand...
The same - no real improvement.
PhotoTeach2 said:
My conclusion is that it is highly feasible !! Of course this depends on subject distance for instance but in many cases the flash could help.
Click to expand...
The flash helps at 1/200th or 1/250th. It would help more at 1/800th but not much more beyond that.
Click to expand...
But I can go beyond that shutter speed, that is my point...
Click to expand...
Yeah, and start to quench the flash too.
Click to expand...
Well, your not "quenching" the flash .... just not fully utilizing the (much lower power) trailing edge of pulse-width.
Click to expand...
My word is shorter.
PhotoTeach2 said:
PhotoTeach2 said:
PhotoTeach2 said:
If I manage to use the fill flash at ISO100 1/800 f/5.6 then I will be able to use it at ISO100 1/3200 f/2.8 and the fill flash will have the same effect.
Click to expand...
If that difference is needed to stop motion, yes, but in that case you could also use HSS.
Click to expand...
NO ... w/ HSS, you are already at a (lower) power penalty.
Click to expand...
I know - if the goal is to maximize speed and power is not an issue, HSS works. If power is an issue, 1/800th is about the fastest shutter speed you can really utilize.
PhotoTeach2 said:
PhotoTeach2 said:
PhotoTeach2 said:
So I think a simple flash will be powerfull enough in many cases to be used in sunny days with high shutter speed.
Click to expand...
As long as you're really, really close, like 1-3 meters.
Click to expand...
Or 20' / 6.5-meters w/ FZ-1000, (and probably also RX).
Click to expand...
Not at 1/3200th unless you have a crazy powerful flash or not a lot of light to fight.
 
PhotoTeach2 said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.
Click to expand...
There may be limits here you aren't thinking of.

If the goal is to quench sunlight to change the balance of power between the sunlight and the flash, specifically to make the flash seem more powerful, this "any speed" thing isn't really true. Most flashes are around 1/800th at full power. If you shorten your shutter speed below that, you'll start quenching the light from the flash as well.

Now, if your goal is to freeze motion, and your flash is powerful enough when it's pulse is, say 1/4000th (around 1/4-1/8th power), then you're still okay. The same goes for shallow DOF though a simple ND filter will make that available today.
Click to expand...
If I am able to fill flash during a sunny day at F16 ISO100 1/100 (sunny 16 rule) or even easier for flash at F5.6 ISO100 1/800 ( if we imagine flash power starts to decrease at 1/800s) then you agree that it will work for faster shutter speed ? Balance of flash ambient light will remin the same at higher ss.
Click to expand...
The same - no real improvement.
PhotoTeach2 said:
My conclusion is that it is highly feasible !! Of course this depends on subject distance for instance but in many cases the flash could help.
Click to expand...
The flash helps at 1/200th or 1/250th. It would help more at 1/800th but not much more beyond that.
Click to expand...
But I can go beyond that shutter speed, that is my point...
If I manage to use the fill flash at ISO100 1/800 f/5.6 then I will be able to use it at ISO100 1/3200 f/2.8 and the fill flash will have the same effect.
So I think a simple flash will be powerfull enough in many cases to be used in sunny days with high shutter speed.
Click to expand...
I have stated many times I often use the FZ-1000 (built-in) flash to 20'.
Click to expand...
Fighting direct sunlight behind the subject?

Doubt it.
 
PhotoTeach2 said:
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.
Click to expand...
There may be limits here you aren't thinking of.

If the goal is to quench sunlight to change the balance of power between the sunlight and the flash, specifically to make the flash seem more powerful, this "any speed" thing isn't really true. Most flashes are around 1/800th at full power. If you shorten your shutter speed below that, you'll start quenching the light from the flash as well.

Now, if your goal is to freeze motion, and your flash is powerful enough when it's pulse is, say 1/4000th (around 1/4-1/8th power), then you're still okay. The same goes for shallow DOF though a simple ND filter will make that available today.
Click to expand...
My estimate is that for instance with my ultra small flash ef-x8 (guide number 8 meters), the flash will be efficient until 2-3 meters for fill flash.
Click to expand...
Well, my GN58 flash has trouble with fill at 3m and 1/250th, so I doubt that unless the sun is somewhat obscured.
Click to expand...
Of course every strobe is different, (pulse-widths).

I can only state that I see no loss w/ FZ to 1/2000/3200s, but indeed about 1/2-stop @ 1/4000s. (GN-48)

NO Flash
NO Flash

w/ BUILT-IN FLASH
w/ BUILT-IN FLASH

NO Flash
NO Flash

w/ BUILT-IN FLASH
w/ BUILT-IN FLASH

NO Flash
NO Flash

w/ BUILT-IN FLASH
w/ BUILT-IN FLASH
Click to expand...
These are easy situations. I'm talking about sun behind the subject.

--
Lee Jay
 
Lee Jay said:
PhotoTeach2 said:
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.
Click to expand...
There may be limits here you aren't thinking of.

If the goal is to quench sunlight to change the balance of power between the sunlight and the flash, specifically to make the flash seem more powerful, this "any speed" thing isn't really true. Most flashes are around 1/800th at full power. If you shorten your shutter speed below that, you'll start quenching the light from the flash as well.

Now, if your goal is to freeze motion, and your flash is powerful enough when it's pulse is, say 1/4000th (around 1/4-1/8th power), then you're still okay. The same goes for shallow DOF though a simple ND filter will make that available today.
Click to expand...
If I am able to fill flash during a sunny day at F16 ISO100 1/100 (sunny 16 rule) or even easier for flash at F5.6 ISO100 1/800 ( if we imagine flash power starts to decrease at 1/800s) then you agree that it will work for faster shutter speed ? Balance of flash ambient light will remin the same at higher ss.
Click to expand...
The same - no real improvement.
Lee Jay said:
My conclusion is that it is highly feasible !! Of course this depends on subject distance for instance but in many cases the flash could help.
Click to expand...
The flash helps at 1/200th or 1/250th. It would help more at 1/800th but not much more beyond that.
Click to expand...
But I can go beyond that shutter speed, that is my point...
Click to expand...
Yeah, and start to quench the flash too.
Click to expand...
Well, your not "quenching" the flash .... just not fully utilizing the (much lower power) trailing edge of pulse-width.
Click to expand...
My word is shorter.
Lee Jay said:
Lee Jay said:
Lee Jay said:
If I manage to use the fill flash at ISO100 1/800 f/5.6 then I will be able to use it at ISO100 1/3200 f/2.8 and the fill flash will have the same effect.
Click to expand...
If that difference is needed to stop motion, yes, but in that case you could also use HSS.
Click to expand...
NO ... w/ HSS, you are already at a (lower) power penalty.
Click to expand...
I know - if the goal is to maximize speed and power is not an issue, HSS works. If power is an issue, 1/800th is about the fastest shutter speed you can really utilize.
Lee Jay said:
Lee Jay said:
Lee Jay said:
So I think a simple flash will be powerfull enough in many cases to be used in sunny days with high shutter speed.
Click to expand...
As long as you're really, really close, like 1-3 meters.
Click to expand...
Or 20' / 6.5-meters w/ FZ-1000, (and probably also RX).
Click to expand...
Not at 1/3200th unless you have a crazy powerful flash or not a lot of light to fight.
Click to expand...
I don't always use 1/3200/4000s ...

But I have gone outdoors at night and shot down the "side" of my house, watching the light falloff at distance increases towards the end/corner of the house, (40' away which is indeed already about 1-stop darker than the 20' distance I used as reference).

I have shot at sequentially increasing SS and only noticed a "slight" drop-off @ 1/4000s, (estimate about 1/2-stop).

But I agree this is w/ BUILT-IN flash, (on FZ-1000), and every flash PW may vary.

I suggest the manufacturers could make a short-PW high-power strobe w/ multiple (smaller/faster) flash-tubes.
 
Lee Jay said:
PhotoTeach2 said:
Lee Jay said:
Christof21 said:
Lee Jay said:
JohnWick4001 said:
Everyone is calling for a Global shutter and it's utopian ability to synch with Flash at any speed. I shoot outdoors in bright sunlight all the time with Flash and would love to benefit from this as well.
Click to expand...
There may be limits here you aren't thinking of.

If the goal is to quench sunlight to change the balance of power between the sunlight and the flash, specifically to make the flash seem more powerful, this "any speed" thing isn't really true. Most flashes are around 1/800th at full power. If you shorten your shutter speed below that, you'll start quenching the light from the flash as well.

Now, if your goal is to freeze motion, and your flash is powerful enough when it's pulse is, say 1/4000th (around 1/4-1/8th power), then you're still okay. The same goes for shallow DOF though a simple ND filter will make that available today.
Click to expand...
My estimate is that for instance with my ultra small flash ef-x8 (guide number 8 meters), the flash will be efficient until 2-3 meters for fill flash.
Click to expand...
Well, my GN58 flash has trouble with fill at 3m and 1/250th, so I doubt that unless the sun is somewhat obscured.
Click to expand...
Of course every strobe is different, (pulse-widths).

I can only state that I see no loss w/ FZ to 1/2000/3200s, but indeed about 1/2-stop @ 1/4000s. (GN-48)

NO Flash
NO Flash

w/ BUILT-IN FLASH
w/ BUILT-IN FLASH

NO Flash
NO Flash

w/ BUILT-IN FLASH
w/ BUILT-IN FLASH

NO Flash
NO Flash

w/ BUILT-IN FLASH (1/2000s)
w/ BUILT-IN FLASH (1/2000s)
Click to expand...
These are easy situations. I'm talking about sun behind the subject.
Click to expand...
And why would that last (wooded carving) shot show the effect/power ???

I have also done this ...

NO Flash
NO Flash

w/ BUILT-IN FLASH (1/3200s)
w/ BUILT-IN FLASH (1/3200s)

In BRIGHT SUNLIGHT (1/4000s)
In BRIGHT SUNLIGHT (1/4000s)
 
Last edited:
PhotoTeach2 said:
tko said:
Christof21 said:
tko said:
They already use titanium, carbon fiber, and other exotic materials. It is hard to make a mechanical device move that fast. Many of the jet plane speed and elevation records were set decades ago for the same reason. Mechanical things are at a pretty high plateau.

Besides, does it matter?
Click to expand...
Yes !
PhotoTeach2 said:
You can use HSS for any shutter speed you want.
Click to expand...
I wsnt to be able to ue the minimal gear, whether it is already included with the body or not. With my Fuji x-e3, this is external but it does not need extra batteries and is very small. I have it always with me, it does not take place.

I understand the op and wish we will have global shutter soon.
Click to expand...
Your minimal gear will not enough enough power to compete with the sun at fast shutter speeds, no matter what the shutter is doing. Dream on.
Click to expand...
Wrong ... I get 20'+ w/ FZ-1000 built-in flash, (in midday sun-light).

I get 60' w/ Metz 60-CT4
Click to expand...
Is it the guide number ?
It is difficult to read the specifications also...
It gives 13.5 meters for the wide angle (with auto iso, how strange...).
This would mean that the guide number is 37.8 (meters) or 110' ???? Considering the max aperture=f/2.8.
Something is wrong of course, I try to understand how it is specified...
 
Looks pretty convincing !

A built in flash can do the job. I hope we will have the global shutter to do what you are able to do with your built in flash !

Chris
 
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