Musing on value of vintage lenses

Hello!

Focal reducers do indeed add another layer of bulk but are well worth it imho. ;)



A small assortion of my stock of old Minolta lenses - I call this the Speedboosted Scorpion ;)
A small assortion of my stock of old Minolta lenses - I call this the Speedboosted Scorpion ;)

Best,

Alex

--
carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero
 
There are some odd things about this picture. There are small spots of smudginess eg the shoulder of the guy in the peach coloured shirt and baseball cap.

The sea also looks a bit strange, almost chunky textured like oil painting.

Is that noise reduction at work, perhaps?
I am afraid, these are the Quattro artifacts showing up here. At the risk of being accused to bash the Quattro line, these artifacts are visible in a lot of pictures. I think they can be reduced by careful processing in SPP, but OOC jpgs are what they are.

I think if someone like Scott is always after the highest resolution, one should use SPP instead of OOC jpgs.
 
I'm looking for a particular type of bokeh that can only be achieved with a very few vintage lenses. I haven't found it -- yet.

In the end it's all about what floats your boat.
Vitée,

I'm trying to figure out what you are looking for. I see sharp focus and smooth bokeh.
Well, I guess I have found one or two answers. The 7Artisans 55mm f1.4 and the Sigma 85mm f1.4 Art do a pretty good job -- although the Sigma has massive CA wide open -- which is not easy to control. The Samyang 85mm F1.8 ED UMC CS is staggeringly good to. Almost CA free and very light and compact too.

Examples of photos from these lenses here.

I'm also looking for a triplet like the Meyer-Optic Gorlitz Trioplan 100mm f/2.8 or the Fujinon M42, 55mm f/1.8 . Yeah, I admit it, I love good soap bubble bokeh. When used well, it produces an earthy, but fae, even etheric mood that seems impossible to capture with any other glass.
I think it's the Fujinon 55/2.2 with the soap bubble bokeh. (I've got a few, and most of the Fujinon 50-ish lenses).
There's a couple of ads on eBay for the Fujinon 55mm f/1.8 that claim it produces soap bubble bokeh, but doesn't show any photos to prove it.
The Vivitar 28/2.5 (with the wide front end) also has bubbles, and is quite cheap. I've also just seen photos from the Sigma-Z PANTEL 135/2.8 that seem to be bubbly.
About 8am Solar Time through trees. Lens at f/2.4. The bright one is catching the sun. Posted for what they're worth!

Semi-close focus:

4e2c3b2180504384a945e08fd9cf93f2.jpg

Max close focus:

Bit of camera shake from my old hands ...
Bit of camera shake from my old hands ...
I thought these would be useful but later reading showed me how little I know about "bokeh":

https://www.photoreview.com.au/tips/shooting/bokeh-and-depth-of-field/

Apparently, shooting points of light doesn't tells us much about the quality of a lens' bokeh, so I'll refrain from posting more shots.
I beg to differ.

Shooting points of light is a good idea, and shows many characteristics of a lens' bokeh. Besides, that author didn't even know that it's pronounced "boca" - rather than bo-keh" (like "bouquet" - with a bow rather than the "bou" or "boo").

I'm still learning ...

... actually found this from the much-maligned Ken Rockwell quite illuminating:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/bokeh.htm
I think it's funny how he professes to be an expert on "what we want" in lens bokeh. The fact is different people want different things. Some people like bubble bokeh, while others like what he describes as good bokeh, yet others, like me, believe that different photos look better with different types of bokeh, just like different colors look better on different styles of houses. I wouldn't dream of painting a ranch or Mediterranean style house black, but some modern homes actually look good that color (though normally it's black granite, rather than black paint that makes them black). You'll probably never see a blue Spanish style house, but blue Key West style homes are all over the place (at least here in Florida they are).

--
Scott Barton Kennelly
 
I'm looking for a particular type of bokeh that can only be achieved with a very few vintage lenses. I haven't found it -- yet.

In the end it's all about what floats your boat.
Vitée,

I'm trying to figure out what you are looking for. I see sharp focus and smooth bokeh.
Well, I guess I have found one or two answers. The 7Artisans 55mm f1.4 and the Sigma 85mm f1.4 Art do a pretty good job -- although the Sigma has massive CA wide open -- which is not easy to control. The Samyang 85mm F1.8 ED UMC CS is staggeringly good to. Almost CA free and very light and compact too.

Examples of photos from these lenses here.

I'm also looking for a triplet like the Meyer-Optic Gorlitz Trioplan 100mm f/2.8 or the Fujinon M42, 55mm f/1.8 . Yeah, I admit it, I love good soap bubble bokeh. When used well, it produces an earthy, but fae, even etheric mood that seems impossible to capture with any other glass.
I think it's the Fujinon 55/2.2 with the soap bubble bokeh. (I've got a few, and most of the Fujinon 50-ish lenses).
There's a couple of ads on eBay for the Fujinon 55mm f/1.8 that claim it produces soap bubble bokeh, but doesn't show any photos to prove it.
The Vivitar 28/2.5 (with the wide front end) also has bubbles, and is quite cheap. I've also just seen photos from the Sigma-Z PANTEL 135/2.8 that seem to be bubbly.
About 8am Solar Time through trees. Lens at f/2.4. The bright one is catching the sun. Posted for what they're worth!

Semi-close focus:

4e2c3b2180504384a945e08fd9cf93f2.jpg

Max close focus:

Bit of camera shake from my old hands ...
Bit of camera shake from my old hands ...
I thought these would be useful but later reading showed me how little I know about "bokeh":

https://www.photoreview.com.au/tips/shooting/bokeh-and-depth-of-field/

Apparently, shooting points of light doesn't tells us much about the quality of a lens' bokeh, so I'll refrain from posting more shots.
I beg to differ.

Shooting points of light is a good idea, and shows many characteristics of a lens' bokeh. Besides, that author didn't even know that it's pronounced "boca" - rather than bo-keh" (like "bouquet" - with a bow rather than the "bou" or "boo").

I'm still learning ...

... actually found this from the much-maligned Ken Rockwell quite illuminating:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/bokeh.htm
I think it's funny how he professes to be an expert on "what we want" in lens bokeh. The fact is different people want different things. Some people like bubble bokeh, while others like what he describes as good bokeh, yet others, like me, believe that different photos look better with different types of bokeh, just like different colors look better on different styles of houses. I wouldn't dream of painting a ranch or Mediterranean style house black, but some modern homes actually look good that color (though normally it's black granite, rather than black paint that makes them black). You'll probably never see a blue Spanish style house, but blue Key West style homes are all over the place (at least here in Florida they are).
I think he doesn‘t refer to what someone likes. His classification follows the appearance of bokeh in optically good or bad lenses. This can be calculated. And I think there is also a feeling for a „natural“ bokeh.

But I agree, one might want to have a special bokeh depending on the scene or personal preference.
 
Hello!

Close call! ;) That is in fact a somewhat seldom seen manual focus Minolta lens - the 35/2.8 Shift VFC (variable focus control - kind of Minolta's wannabe counter to Tilt functionality).

Best,

Alex
 
I'm looking for a particular type of bokeh that can only be achieved with a very few vintage lenses. I haven't found it -- yet.

In the end it's all about what floats your boat.
Vitée,

I'm trying to figure out what you are looking for. I see sharp focus and smooth bokeh.
Well, I guess I have found one or two answers. The 7Artisans 55mm f1.4 and the Sigma 85mm f1.4 Art do a pretty good job -- although the Sigma has massive CA wide open -- which is not easy to control. The Samyang 85mm F1.8 ED UMC CS is staggeringly good to. Almost CA free and very light and compact too.

Examples of photos from these lenses here.

I'm also looking for a triplet like the Meyer-Optic Gorlitz Trioplan 100mm f/2.8 or the Fujinon M42, 55mm f/1.8 . Yeah, I admit it, I love good soap bubble bokeh. When used well, it produces an earthy, but fae, even etheric mood that seems impossible to capture with any other glass.
I think it's the Fujinon 55/2.2 with the soap bubble bokeh. (I've got a few, and most of the Fujinon 50-ish lenses).
There's a couple of ads on eBay for the Fujinon 55mm f/1.8 that claim it produces soap bubble bokeh, but doesn't show any photos to prove it.
The Vivitar 28/2.5 (with the wide front end) also has bubbles, and is quite cheap. I've also just seen photos from the Sigma-Z PANTEL 135/2.8 that seem to be bubbly.
About 8am Solar Time through trees. Lens at f/2.4. The bright one is catching the sun. Posted for what they're worth!

Semi-close focus:

4e2c3b2180504384a945e08fd9cf93f2.jpg

Max close focus:

Bit of camera shake from my old hands ...
Bit of camera shake from my old hands ...
I thought these would be useful but later reading showed me how little I know about "bokeh":

https://www.photoreview.com.au/tips/shooting/bokeh-and-depth-of-field/

Apparently, shooting points of light doesn't tells us much about the quality of a lens' bokeh, so I'll refrain from posting more shots.
I beg to differ.

Shooting points of light is a good idea, and shows many characteristics of a lens' bokeh. Besides, that author didn't even know that it's pronounced "boca" - rather than bo-keh" (like "bouquet" - with a bow rather than the "bou" or "boo").

I'm still learning ...

... actually found this from the much-maligned Ken Rockwell quite illuminating:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/bokeh.htm
I think it's funny how he professes to be an expert on "what we want" in lens bokeh. The fact is different people want different things. Some people like bubble bokeh, while others like what he describes as good bokeh, yet others, like me, believe that different photos look better with different types of bokeh, just like different colors look better on different styles of houses. I wouldn't dream of painting a ranch or Mediterranean style house black, but some modern homes actually look good that color (though normally it's black granite, rather than black paint that makes them black). You'll probably never see a blue Spanish style house, but blue Key West style homes are all over the place (at least here in Florida they are).
I think he doesn‘t refer to what someone likes. His classification follows the appearance of bokeh in optically good or bad lenses. This can be calculated. And I think there is also a feeling for a „natural“ bokeh.

But I agree, one might want to have a special bokeh depending on the scene or personal preference.
I was thinking about the bubble bokeh that so many classic lens lovers are after these days, and I realized that sometimes I want the blurred parts of an image to be interesting, and sometimes I want them to be a little less noticeable. I think the donut bokeh that a mirror lens makes can be very interesting in the right situation, but normally I prefer the less "nervous" bokeh of a long wide-aperture lens like the Canon 70-200mm f2.8 L IS.



I like the bokeh visible in this crop.
I like the bokeh visible in this crop.



--
Scott Barton Kennelly
 
There are some odd things about this picture. There are small spots of smudginess eg the shoulder of the guy in the peach coloured shirt and baseball cap.

The sea also looks a bit strange, almost chunky textured like oil painting.

Is that noise reduction at work, perhaps?
I am afraid, these are the Quattro artifacts showing up here. At the risk of being accused to bash the Quattro line, these artifacts are visible in a lot of pictures. I think they can be reduced by careful processing in SPP, but OOC jpgs are what they are.

I think if someone like Scott is always after the highest resolution, one should use SPP instead of OOC jpgs.
I haven't noticed much image quality improvement from SPP vs OOC jpegs most of the time, though there are some instances, where there is less noise in the darker areas, if processing images with a lot of adjustment of the shadows. What I mean by this is using X3F Fill Light rather than the in-camera Tone Control setting, or when using color noise reduction in SPP. I turn down sharpness all the way, and use Portrait color mode though, so my OOC jpegs are about as good as they can get (though not sharpened significantly). There is some processing required in GIMP or some other program, to get the most out of the OOC jpegs though. If you're really serious about a photo, and not just playing around, like I am here most of the time, you'd export from raw, after making some adjustments, and you'd export to 16 bit ProPhotoRGB TIFF, so you could get the most out of the image, when editing it with whatever image manipulation software you'd use, after SPP (e.g. Photoshop, RawTherapee, GIMP, or Affinity Photo). I prefer to sharpen only the parts in focus, so when working on an important image, I do sharpening in a program that allows me to apply it to just parts of the image.
 
There are some odd things about this picture. There are small spots of smudginess eg the shoulder of the guy in the peach coloured shirt and baseball cap.

The sea also looks a bit strange, almost chunky textured like oil painting.

Is that noise reduction at work, perhaps?
I don't know what Ted might have done with that. It's a crop from the original OOC jpeg, and since it's a jpeg from a crop of a jpeg, there could be some artifacts visible. At the time I shot that photo, I was using Landscape color mode, if I'm not mistaken, and I may have even allowed some noise reduction to happen, or maybe Sigma defaults to more noise reduction, when the camera is in Landscape mode, because of the extra sharpening that it applies to those images.

I now use Portrait color mode, because the camera sharpens those jpegs less, and when I turn down the sharpening all the way, it really does turn it down almost all the way. The halos are almost non-existent in Portrait color mode, but in Landscape color mode the halos are really obvious, even when Sharpness is turned all the way down. I don't know what level of noise reduction is applied (I have it turned all the way down now), but I would guess Sigma set the noise reduction pretty stron in Landscape mode, in order to kill the Quattro sandiness that we were seeing when the Quattro cameras first came on the market. As Roland has pointed out a few times, ALL Sigma cameras, with their Foveon sensors, require noise reduction, and in-camera jpeg production would involve at least some noise reduction, or they'd produce noisy jpegs. I wonder what the situation is with the fp, with regard to noise reduction in the camera.
 
Hello!

Focal reducers do indeed add another layer of bulk but are well worth it imho. ;)

A small assortion of my stock of old Minolta lenses - I call this the Speedboosted Scorpion ;)
A small assortion of my stock of old Minolta lenses - I call this the Speedboosted Scorpion ;)

Best,

Alex
A 45mm? A 35mm f1.8? A 35mm f2.8 shifting Variable Field Curvature lens?!? Nice collection! I'd love to see some photos from that lens.

--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
 
Last edited:
There are some odd things about this picture. There are small spots of smudginess eg the shoulder of the guy in the peach coloured shirt and baseball cap.

The sea also looks a bit strange, almost chunky textured like oil painting.

Is that noise reduction at work, perhaps?
I don't know what Ted might have done with that. It's a crop from the original OOC jpeg
All I did was crop the posted image, Scott. Saved out of FastStone with minimum compression and 4:2:0 chroma subsampling. Yours was posted at 4:2:2.
 
There are some odd things about this picture. There are small spots of smudginess eg the shoulder of the guy in the peach coloured shirt and baseball cap.

The sea also looks a bit strange, almost chunky textured like oil painting.

Is that noise reduction at work, perhaps?
I am afraid, these are the Quattro artifacts showing up here. At the risk of being accused to bash the Quattro line, these artifacts are visible in a lot of pictures. I think they can be reduced by careful processing in SPP, but OOC jpgs are what they are.

I think if someone like Scott is always after the highest resolution, one should use SPP instead of OOC jpgs.
I haven't noticed much image quality improvement from SPP vs OOC jpegs most of the time, though there are some instances, where there is less noise in the darker areas, if processing images with a lot of adjustment of the shadows. What I mean by this is using X3F Fill Light rather than the in-camera Tone Control setting, or when using color noise reduction in SPP. I turn down sharpness all the way, and use Portrait color mode though, so my OOC jpegs are about as good as they can get (though not sharpened significantly). There is some processing required in GIMP or some other program, to get the most out of the OOC jpegs though. If you're really serious about a photo, and not just playing around, like I am here most of the time, you'd export from raw, after making some adjustments, and you'd export to 16 bit ProPhotoRGB TIFF, so you could get the most out of the image, when editing it with whatever image manipulation software you'd use, after SPP (e.g. Photoshop, RawTherapee, GIMP, or Affinity Photo). I prefer to sharpen only the parts in focus, so when working on an important image, I do sharpening in a program that allows me to apply it to just parts of the image.
I always thought that the best approach is to process the RAW in SPP and do as much as possible there. In most cases, I am perfectly fine with the result. I would not work with a jpg with reduced information content and start post-processing from that. I can easily understand that someone is fine with the OOC jpgs. But an approach which by default uses additional post-processing from that starting point is unclear to me. Especially when you turn down sharpness all the way to crank it up again later in the jpg. Of course, it is your decision and matter of taste.
 
Last edited:
There are some odd things about this picture. There are small spots of smudginess eg the shoulder of the guy in the peach coloured shirt and baseball cap.

The sea also looks a bit strange, almost chunky textured like oil painting.

Is that noise reduction at work, perhaps?
I am afraid, these are the Quattro artifacts showing up here. At the risk of being accused to bash the Quattro line, these artifacts are visible in a lot of pictures. I think they can be reduced by careful processing in SPP, but OOC jpgs are what they are.

I think if someone like Scott is always after the highest resolution, one should use SPP instead of OOC jpgs.
I haven't noticed much image quality improvement from SPP vs OOC jpegs most of the time, though there are some instances, where there is less noise in the darker areas, if processing images with a lot of adjustment of the shadows. What I mean by this is using X3F Fill Light rather than the in-camera Tone Control setting, or when using color noise reduction in SPP. I turn down sharpness all the way, and use Portrait color mode though, so my OOC jpegs are about as good as they can get (though not sharpened significantly). There is some processing required in GIMP or some other program, to get the most out of the OOC jpegs though. If you're really serious about a photo, and not just playing around, like I am here most of the time, you'd export from raw, after making some adjustments, and you'd export to 16 bit ProPhotoRGB TIFF, so you could get the most out of the image, when editing it with whatever image manipulation software you'd use, after SPP (e.g. Photoshop, RawTherapee, GIMP, or Affinity Photo). I prefer to sharpen only the parts in focus, so when working on an important image, I do sharpening in a program that allows me to apply it to just parts of the image.
I always thought that the best approach is to process the RAW in SPP and do as much as possible there. In most cases, I am perfectly fine with the result.
+1 but I do as little as possible in SPP - on the basis that anything SPP can do, RawTherapee can do it better given the time and knowledge. Yes ... even the much-revered Fill Light.
I would not work with a jpg with reduced information content and start post-processing from that.
Agreed, OOC JPEGs are only good for culling out bad shots and, in any case, my Viewer is normally set to extract the embedded JPEG.
I can easily understand that someone is fine with the OOC jpgs. But an approach which by default uses additional post-processing from that starting point is unclear to me.
Me neither.
Especially when you turn down sharpness all the way to crank it up again later in the jpg.
Ho ho!
Of course, it is your decision and matter of taste.
:-)

--
Ted
 
Last edited:
There are some odd things about this picture. There are small spots of smudginess eg the shoulder of the guy in the peach coloured shirt and baseball cap.

The sea also looks a bit strange, almost chunky textured like oil painting.

Is that noise reduction at work, perhaps?
I am afraid, these are the Quattro artifacts showing up here. At the risk of being accused to bash the Quattro line, these artifacts are visible in a lot of pictures. I think they can be reduced by careful processing in SPP, but OOC jpgs are what they are.

I think if someone like Scott is always after the highest resolution, one should use SPP instead of OOC jpgs.
I haven't noticed much image quality improvement from SPP vs OOC jpegs most of the time, though there are some instances, where there is less noise in the darker areas, if processing images with a lot of adjustment of the shadows. What I mean by this is using X3F Fill Light rather than the in-camera Tone Control setting, or when using color noise reduction in SPP. I turn down sharpness all the way, and use Portrait color mode though, so my OOC jpegs are about as good as they can get (though not sharpened significantly). There is some processing required in GIMP or some other program, to get the most out of the OOC jpegs though. If you're really serious about a photo, and not just playing around, like I am here most of the time, you'd export from raw, after making some adjustments, and you'd export to 16 bit ProPhotoRGB TIFF, so you could get the most out of the image, when editing it with whatever image manipulation software you'd use, after SPP (e.g. Photoshop, RawTherapee, GIMP, or Affinity Photo). I prefer to sharpen only the parts in focus, so when working on an important image, I do sharpening in a program that allows me to apply it to just parts of the image.
I always thought that the best approach is to process the RAW in SPP and do as much as possible there. In most cases, I am perfectly fine with the result. I would not work with a jpg with reduced information content and start post-processing from that. I can easily understand that someone is fine with the OOC jpgs. But an approach which by default uses additional post-processing from that starting point is unclear to me. Especially when you turn down sharpness all the way to crank it up again later in the jpg. Of course, it is your decision and matter of taste.
GIMP doesn't make halos like SPP and the Sigma SD Quattro H. It seem to make less, but still get the image sharper. Plus, like I said, with GIMP I can sharpen only what needs to be sharpened. I can't do that with the camera or SPP. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating people make important images from an OOC jpeg - just that I find that's a decent way to do it, if you're making a quick edit, to see how it comes out. That's good enough for most things, and even prints up to about 20" x 30" (but larger prints demand the best quality image, right?). If it's a critical photo though, or if I plan to do a lot of work on it (more than five or ten minutes' worth), I will process in SPP, exporting a 16 bit TIFF, and then work with that. It's a slower, more involved way to do it, but in the end the final result is usually worth the extra work. I just wouldn't bother, unless it's a really good shot in the first place, and those are pretty rare (as far as my own work is concerned).

Here's an example:

Edited in GIMP after exporting adjusted image from SPP
Edited in GIMP after exporting adjusted image from SPP



That photo is the one I shot with my SD1 Merrill this morning, but I also shot this one with my SD Quattro H (but it's an OOC jpeg):


--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
 
Last edited:
There are some odd things about this picture. There are small spots of smudginess eg the shoulder of the guy in the peach coloured shirt and baseball cap.

The sea also looks a bit strange, almost chunky textured like oil painting.

Is that noise reduction at work, perhaps?
I don't know what Ted might have done with that. It's a crop from the original OOC jpeg
All I did was crop the posted image, Scott. Saved out of FastStone with minimum compression and 4:2:0 chroma subsampling. Yours was posted at 4:2:2.
Interesting. I guess the SD Quattro H makes 4:2:2 jpegs, rather than 4:4:4. Whenever I save out of GIMP I choose 4:4:4. Why do you use 4:2:0 Ted?
 
There are some odd things about this picture. There are small spots of smudginess eg the shoulder of the guy in the peach coloured shirt and baseball cap.

The sea also looks a bit strange, almost chunky textured like oil painting.

Is that noise reduction at work, perhaps?
I am afraid, these are the Quattro artifacts showing up here. At the risk of being accused to bash the Quattro line, these artifacts are visible in a lot of pictures. I think they can be reduced by careful processing in SPP, but OOC jpgs are what they are.

I think if someone like Scott is always after the highest resolution, one should use SPP instead of OOC jpgs.
I haven't noticed much image quality improvement from SPP vs OOC jpegs most of the time, though there are some instances, where there is less noise in the darker areas, if processing images with a lot of adjustment of the shadows. What I mean by this is using X3F Fill Light rather than the in-camera Tone Control setting, or when using color noise reduction in SPP. I turn down sharpness all the way, and use Portrait color mode though, so my OOC jpegs are about as good as they can get (though not sharpened significantly). There is some processing required in GIMP or some other program, to get the most out of the OOC jpegs though. If you're really serious about a photo, and not just playing around, like I am here most of the time, you'd export from raw, after making some adjustments, and you'd export to 16 bit ProPhotoRGB TIFF, so you could get the most out of the image, when editing it with whatever image manipulation software you'd use, after SPP (e.g. Photoshop, RawTherapee, GIMP, or Affinity Photo). I prefer to sharpen only the parts in focus, so when working on an important image, I do sharpening in a program that allows me to apply it to just parts of the image.
I always thought that the best approach is to process the RAW in SPP and do as much as possible there. In most cases, I am perfectly fine with the result. I would not work with a jpg with reduced information content and start post-processing from that. I can easily understand that someone is fine with the OOC jpgs. But an approach which by default uses additional post-processing from that starting point is unclear to me. Especially when you turn down sharpness all the way to crank it up again later in the jpg. Of course, it is your decision and matter of taste.
GIMP doesn't make halos like SPP and the Sigma SD Quattro H. It seem to make less, but still get the image sharper. Plus, like I said, with GIMP I can sharpen only what needs to be sharpened. I can't do that with the camera or SPP. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating people make important images from an OOC jpeg - just that I find that's a decent way to do it, if you're making a quick edit, to see how it comes out. That's good enough for most things, and even prints up to about 20" x 30" (but larger prints demand the best quality image, right?). If it's a critical photo though, or if I plan to do a lot of work on it (more than five or ten minutes' worth), I will process in SPP, exporting a 16 bit TIFF, and then work with that. It's a slower, more involved way to do it, but in the end the final result is usually worth the extra work. I just wouldn't bother, unless it's a really good shot in the first place, and those are pretty rare (as far as my own work is concerned).

Here's an example:

Edited in GIMP after exporting adjusted image from SPP
Edited in GIMP after exporting adjusted image from SPP

That photo is the one I shot with my SD1 Merrill this morning, <>
Something odd about that JPEG, Scott. The camera settings are for full sunlight (15EV).

But, for that time of day, The camera settings should be more like 12-14EV. So it's looking like you deliberately under-exposed your shot (or metered off the clouds), perhaps to get better cloud highlights.

Remember this?


Unfortunately, the silhouettes have come out a bit noisy, can't imagine why ... ;-)

--
Ted
 
There are some odd things about this picture. There are small spots of smudginess eg the shoulder of the guy in the peach coloured shirt and baseball cap.

The sea also looks a bit strange, almost chunky textured like oil painting.

Is that noise reduction at work, perhaps?
I don't know what Ted might have done with that. It's a crop from the original OOC jpeg, and since it's a jpeg from a crop of a jpeg, there could be some artifacts visible. At the time I shot that photo, I was using Landscape color mode, if I'm not mistaken, and I may have even allowed some noise reduction to happen, or maybe Sigma defaults to more noise reduction, when the camera is in Landscape mode, because of the extra sharpening that it applies to those images.

I now use Portrait color mode, because the camera sharpens those jpegs less, and when I turn down the sharpening all the way, it really does turn it down almost all the way. The halos are almost non-existent in Portrait color mode, but in Landscape color mode the halos are really obvious, even when Sharpness is turned all the way down. I don't know what level of noise reduction is applied (I have it turned all the way down now), but I would guess Sigma set the noise reduction pretty stron in Landscape mode, in order to kill the Quattro sandiness that we were seeing when the Quattro cameras first came on the market. As Roland has pointed out a few times, ALL Sigma cameras, with their Foveon sensors, require noise reduction, and in-camera jpeg production would involve at least some noise reduction, or they'd produce noisy jpegs. I wonder what the situation is with the fp, with regard to noise reduction in the camera.
You seem to expose and process according to a sort of formula. Optimal aperture for sharpness, hyper-focal distance, and manual exposure guesstimation etc.. All to avoid negatives, not to promote positives. I'm in no position to advise anyone about PP, most is personal choice and you seem way more experienced than I in that respect. BUT you can't show OOC jpegs with uncertain camera settings as any kind of comparison,,

Cheers,
 
There are some odd things about this picture. There are small spots of smudginess eg the shoulder of the guy in the peach coloured shirt and baseball cap.

The sea also looks a bit strange, almost chunky textured like oil painting.

Is that noise reduction at work, perhaps?
I don't know what Ted might have done with that. It's a crop from the original OOC jpeg
All I did was crop the posted image, Scott. Saved out of FastStone with minimum compression and 4:2:0 chroma subsampling. Yours was posted at 4:2:2.
Interesting. I guess the SD Quattro H makes 4:2:2 jpegs, rather than 4:4:4. Whenever I save out of GIMP I choose 4:4:4. Why do you use 4:2:0 Ted?
As you know, 4:2:0 sub-samples chroma both horizontally and vertically. However, 4:2:2 only sub-samples horizontally - a sort of compromise between 4:2:0 and 4:4:4. I don't like that compromise any more than I like Sigma using interpolation on medium res images out of our Merrills.

In other words, I use full chroma sub-sampling (4:2:0, 2x2), or none at all (4:4:4, 1x1).

--
Ted
 
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There are some odd things about this picture. There are small spots of smudginess eg the shoulder of the guy in the peach coloured shirt and baseball cap.

The sea also looks a bit strange, almost chunky textured like oil painting.

Is that noise reduction at work, perhaps?
I am afraid, these are the Quattro artifacts showing up here. At the risk of being accused to bash the Quattro line, these artifacts are visible in a lot of pictures. I think they can be reduced by careful processing in SPP, but OOC jpgs are what they are.

I think if someone like Scott is always after the highest resolution, one should use SPP instead of OOC jpgs.
I haven't noticed much image quality improvement from SPP vs OOC jpegs most of the time, though there are some instances, where there is less noise in the darker areas, if processing images with a lot of adjustment of the shadows. What I mean by this is using X3F Fill Light rather than the in-camera Tone Control setting, or when using color noise reduction in SPP. I turn down sharpness all the way, and use Portrait color mode though, so my OOC jpegs are about as good as they can get (though not sharpened significantly). There is some processing required in GIMP or some other program, to get the most out of the OOC jpegs though. If you're really serious about a photo, and not just playing around, like I am here most of the time, you'd export from raw, after making some adjustments, and you'd export to 16 bit ProPhotoRGB TIFF, so you could get the most out of the image, when editing it with whatever image manipulation software you'd use, after SPP (e.g. Photoshop, RawTherapee, GIMP, or Affinity Photo). I prefer to sharpen only the parts in focus, so when working on an important image, I do sharpening in a program that allows me to apply it to just parts of the image.
I always thought that the best approach is to process the RAW in SPP and do as much as possible there. In most cases, I am perfectly fine with the result. I would not work with a jpg with reduced information content and start post-processing from that. I can easily understand that someone is fine with the OOC jpgs. But an approach which by default uses additional post-processing from that starting point is unclear to me. Especially when you turn down sharpness all the way to crank it up again later in the jpg. Of course, it is your decision and matter of taste.
GIMP doesn't make halos like SPP and the Sigma SD Quattro H. It seem to make less, but still get the image sharper. Plus, like I said, with GIMP I can sharpen only what needs to be sharpened. I can't do that with the camera or SPP. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating people make important images from an OOC jpeg - just that I find that's a decent way to do it, if you're making a quick edit, to see how it comes out. That's good enough for most things, and even prints up to about 20" x 30" (but larger prints demand the best quality image, right?). If it's a critical photo though, or if I plan to do a lot of work on it (more than five or ten minutes' worth), I will process in SPP, exporting a 16 bit TIFF, and then work with that. It's a slower, more involved way to do it, but in the end the final result is usually worth the extra work. I just wouldn't bother, unless it's a really good shot in the first place, and those are pretty rare (as far as my own work is concerned).

Here's an example:

Edited in GIMP after exporting adjusted image from SPP
Edited in GIMP after exporting adjusted image from SPP

That photo is the one I shot with my SD1 Merrill this morning, <>
Something odd about that JPEG, Scott. The camera settings are for full sunlight (15EV).

But, for that time of day, The camera settings should be more like 12-14EV. So it's looking like you deliberately under-exposed your shot (or metered off the clouds), perhaps to get better cloud highlights.

Remember this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_value#Relationship_of_EV_to_lighting_conditions

Unfortunately, the silhouettes have come out a bit noisy, can't imagine why ... ;-)
Yeah, that was a result of reducing the exposure by stepping up from 1/250 to 1/500 Ted. I was afraid the highlights would be too blown. They're blown anyway, but nowhere near as bad as they would be if I didn't step up the shutter speed. Of course the fisherman would still be a sihouette, even with an extra stop of exposure. I did try to compensate by bringing up he shadows and using +0.3 X3F Fill Light (which helped to save the highlights too), but I don't think there's any saving those silhouettes. The contrast would be ruined anyway, if I could, so it's probably good that I wasn't able to really make much difference with what adjustments I did make.

--
Scott Barton Kennelly
 
There are some odd things about this picture. There are small spots of smudginess eg the shoulder of the guy in the peach coloured shirt and baseball cap.

The sea also looks a bit strange, almost chunky textured like oil painting.

Is that noise reduction at work, perhaps?
I don't know what Ted might have done with that. It's a crop from the original OOC jpeg, and since it's a jpeg from a crop of a jpeg, there could be some artifacts visible. At the time I shot that photo, I was using Landscape color mode, if I'm not mistaken, and I may have even allowed some noise reduction to happen, or maybe Sigma defaults to more noise reduction, when the camera is in Landscape mode, because of the extra sharpening that it applies to those images.

I now use Portrait color mode, because the camera sharpens those jpegs less, and when I turn down the sharpening all the way, it really does turn it down almost all the way. The halos are almost non-existent in Portrait color mode, but in Landscape color mode the halos are really obvious, even when Sharpness is turned all the way down. I don't know what level of noise reduction is applied (I have it turned all the way down now), but I would guess Sigma set the noise reduction pretty stron in Landscape mode, in order to kill the Quattro sandiness that we were seeing when the Quattro cameras first came on the market. As Roland has pointed out a few times, ALL Sigma cameras, with their Foveon sensors, require noise reduction, and in-camera jpeg production would involve at least some noise reduction, or they'd produce noisy jpegs. I wonder what the situation is with the fp, with regard to noise reduction in the camera.
You seem to expose and process according to a sort of formula. Optimal aperture for sharpness, hyper-focal distance, and manual exposure guesstimation etc.. All to avoid negatives, not to promote positives. I'm in no position to advise anyone about PP, most is personal choice and you seem way more experienced than I in that respect. BUT you can't show OOC jpegs with uncertain camera settings as any kind of comparison,,

Cheers,
Thanks George. I just figure an OOC jpeg sort of tells a simple tale, with few details, but I get what you mean. I'm planning to get some 50mm Takumars. When I do, I'll shoot some comparison shots, and I'll post some results with the OOC jpegs using my standard settings . . . and I'll disclose as much info. as possible.

;)
 

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