printing 24 x 36": is MFT + AI gigapixel as good as z6/z7?

Obviously if i had a tripod or amazing shot discipline, the nikon would be the choice. But the issue is one of handling- a d850 gives great images-when using a tripod. But using it hand held is a chore -- mirror slap, shutter shock,etc. Sure the z6 /z7 have ibis but not nearly as good as olympus. And the awesome resolution of the d850 shows every little defect in your technique.

Of course I am not addressing other fundamental differences - MFT has greater depth of field but the files are more brittle. Exposing much above base iso gives files that are sensitive to post. FF otoh, offers bokeh beauty and those nikon files are awesome for their dynamic range and ability to recover detail.

I know there are those of you with hands of steel and insane breath holding ability who can use a z7 flawlessly handheld, but I am only human. And multi shot HDR or pixel shift are also not in the equation here- those need a tripod and a motionless subject. I have enough trouble blending bracketed images to know that multiple images bring many problems and the 'handheld hi-res' is not ready for primetime.

But assuming we compare an oly omd-mark2 with the pro 12-35 lens to a z6 with the 24-70 f2.8, would properly exposed files printed to 24 x 36 be distinguishable if the oly file had AI gigapixel processing?

There's a lot to unpack there. From what others have posted here, the Z6/7 IBIS is very good. Likely more than sufficient for most needs. Once you arrive at the point where shutter speeds are so slow that IBIS is struggling you might well have too much movement in your scene to achieve acceptable sharpness. It really depends on what you're trying to achieve.

The Topaz AI products are another question entirely. They are scary good at some things but also struggle at times. They have literally given new life to small, noisy images from the early days of digital and I have successfully enlarged landscapes and even portraits with success. It will likely be image dependent.

Hand-held high res on the EM1X is better than I expected for mostly static scenes (little motion). It certainly paints a bright future for certain types of photography with more accurate color, more detail, lower shot noise, etc. Certainly a big step in the right direction for a non-smartphone camera.

I've printed A1 size from mFT cameras at lower ISO's with success without enlargement. I suspect you will get very good results from most images using AI Gigapixel or Photoshop's Preserve Details 2.0. Or even good sharpening from the AI Sharpen module goes a long way toward bringing out the best in your images prior to print.

Good luck!

I enlarge my 16 MP pictures x3 for 33x23 inch prints, because the printer kiosks at Warehouse Stationary dislike printing from any file that does not give them 300 dots per inch. The example below would print to 15 inch, and it is as large as DPReview will tolerate.

Enlarging it x3 makes the kiosk down-sample. The 33x23 inch print is on my wall. The viewing distance in my narrow studio is 16 inch, and the detail does not disintegrate.


As you can see, this came out of an Olympus pocket zoom.

The flying gannet below is also a 33x23 inch print on my wall. It was cropped from the original. As I pan with the birds, I cannot keep them centered when their size fills the frame. So the kiosk has not down-sampled here:


The restriction here is, to avoid excessive sharpening haloes on the camera JPEGs I need shutter speeds above 1/1000. I am single on paper only, so I don't get the time to fiddle with RAW.

My visitors do not ask for magnifiers, but in my view, the picture above tolerates mine.

My feeling is, the biggest impediment to large prints is the perception of the photographer. If you only tolerate full frame, you will always discover faults in pictures coming from smaller sensors.

Henry

--
Henry Falkner - E-M10 Mark II, SH-1, SH-50, SP-570UZ

bwana said:

But assuming we compare an oly omd-mark2 with the pro 12-35 lens to a z6 with the 24-70 f2.8, would properly exposed files printed to 24 x 36 be distinguishable if the oly file had AI gigapixel processing?

Click to expand...

The EM-1 Mk2 and Z6 are close enough in resolution that they would look very similar *without* any up-sampling at all. The Z6 has more dynamic range and about 2 stops better high ISO performance, but a landscape shot on a tripod with both cameras would be very similar in resolution and detail, neither one of them quite able to produce "tack sharp" prints at larger than 16x20 without some post-processing help. Subject matter, technique and lens quality are also big factors.

--
http://www.gwmartinimages.com

I am typing from hospital just had a knee replacement, waiting on the Gestapo sorry Physiotherapists as they like to be known for some torture. So I can't post any images { I am using an old tablet }. I can get a solid 4 stops IBIS with the Z7 though unless you are shooting rocks it does not help as much as some suggest. Think about it as a rule how far below the reciprocal focal length do you typically shoot ? For the official CIPA rating IBIS advantage of the E-M1 II over Z6 is just 0.5 of a stop.

Lets be more generous with the IBIS of the E-M1II and say it is 2 stops better { 5 vs 3 on the Z6/7} . Now do you often shoot by 4 stops or more under the reciprocal focal length { that would be a shutter speed of for example of 1/3 sec at 50mm } to get any gain from this .

AI gigapixel is excellent however it cannot generate information that is not already there, it can only enhance what is there . Remember also if you shoot in a 3x2 ratio with a m43 sensor you will be cropping away a couple of MP . Depending on subject and viewing distance you can make very large prints from m43 cameras.I have a 30x20 print from an older 12mp m43 above my desk at home it is portrait of my wife and daughter and from the normal viewing distance holds up very well , not so sure a detailed landscape or macro shot would

However I find as someone who prints large quite often that very large prints tend to draw folk in, after a look at full image they almost invariably move closer to look at the fine detail. This is where lower resolution sensors tend to fall apart, but at normal viewing distances you can get away with it .Using the admittedly dubious standard 300ppi print quality setting a 3x2 crop from a 20mp m43 sensor prints to just under 18x12"

Jim Kasson, recently did a test of a few upscaling software options

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63040633

Now if you can shoot in a situation where you can take advantage of the pixel shift tech you can get excellent results from the E-M1II but you are of course restricted to static subjects. Why not download some RAW samples from the E-M1 II and crop to 3x2 and print small parts of the full image that equates to a 36x24 { e.g. print a quarter of the image to 18x12 } and see what you think.

https://www.dpreview.com/products/olympus/slrs/olympus_em1ii/sample-photos

Got to go now the Gestapo awaits :-(

--
Jim Stirling:
It is not reason which is the guide of life, but custom. David Hume

Jim, all the best with your knee and the physioterrorists ...

JaKing said:

Jim, all the best with your knee and the physioterrorists ...

Click to expand...

Thanks John , just having my tea and toast before they attack

You won’t see any difference. Printed side by side images that large . You can’t tell them apart. I’ve printed 5x7 foot prints and it’s no different than looking at a 24 inch monitor with the image at 100 %.

Don

James Stirling said:

I am typing from hospital just had a knee replacement, waiting on the Gestapo sorry Physiotherapists as they like to be known for some torture.

Click to expand...

Had a hip replacement three years ago. Sandra re-arranged the house to keep on the right side of the authorities which decided whether I should get the replacement in the first place. I thought she was way over the top, and called her Hitler. Then - the lady who delivered the crutches asked precisely the questions I thought Sandra was merely panicking about.

Sandra came with me to the hospital to see the surgeon who made the decision. Having demonstrated already that she was up to the task, Sandra found herself in charge of my aftercare. The doctor said - 'Sandra and you are working as a team on your recovery.' My radio club friends said - 'This means, do as you are told!'

Three years later, everyone I know tells me how well I am walking - without a stick too.

I also hear about guys who thought they knew better, and three month later they are in a wheel chair.

I am therefore asking you to consider the possibility that the physios do know what they are talking about.

I wish you well - so you can go back to playing with your favourite cameras.

Henry

All I can add is that earlier this year I made some prints of around 45" x 30" from 16 mpx Oly files. The ones using Photoshop's rescaler with preserve details 2.0 were more pleasing to my eye than the ones using Gigapixel AI which imho introduced some halos and oversharpening effects. However, Topaz are continually update Gigapixel so it may be better by now. The differences weren't that big but were there if you started looking a bit more closely. Either way, though, the images worked very well.

I'd be interested to know whether and in what way images from a Z6 blow up better than images from say an EM1.2. On the face of it I'd think that a larger sensor, slightly better DR and a few more megapixels would add extra tonality and a more subtle result, but I don't know.

James Stirling said:

I am typing from hospital just had a knee replacement, waiting on the Gestapo sorry Physiotherapists as they like to be known for some torture.

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that Jim - get well soon!

James Stirling said:

So I can't post any images { I am using an old tablet }. I can get a solid 4 stops IBIS with the Z7 though unless you are shooting rocks it does not help as much as some suggest.

Click to expand...

Are these images of actual rocks in nature or more images of objects taken indoors, no wind, resting comfortably in your home? ;-)

James Stirling said:

Think about it as a rule how far below the reciprocal focal length do you typically shoot ? For the official CIPA rating IBIS advantage of the E-M1 II over Z6 is just 0.5 of a stop.

Click to expand...

As Jim Kasson and others have showed IBIS helps at, and even above, the reciprocal focal length rule of thumb. CIPA ratings? Has that pain medicine got you measuring bokeh balls as if they're somehow relevant to what you can handhold?

James Stirling said:

Lets be more generous with the IBIS of the E-M1II and say it is 2 stops better { 5 vs 3 on the Z6/7} . Now do you often shoot by 4 stops or more under the reciprocal focal length { that would be a shutter speed of for example of 1/3 sec at 50mm } to get any gain from this .

Click to expand...

Better IBIS helps at every shutter speed where it is engaged - switch both to video mode as an example and you'll understand. We've seen handheld shots from several users on this forum longer than 1s in duration...none of which seem to come from Nikon's.

If it's a question of "how often"...you could ask what percentage of your shots go to print large to begin with? It's only worth it when you need it right?

James Stirling said:

AI gigapixel is excellent however it cannot generate information that is not already there, it can only enhance what is there . Remember also if you shoot in a 3x2 ratio with a m43 sensor you will be cropping away a couple of MP .

Click to expand...

And if you print A1, A3, A5 etc you crop away the "wings" of FF losing a couple of MP. Conversely, if you shoot vertical orientation, the 4:3 aspect might be more pleasing.

James Stirling said:

Depending on subject and viewing distance you can make very large prints from m43 cameras.I have a 30x20 print from an older 12mp m43 above my desk at home it is portrait of my wife and daughter and from the normal viewing distance holds up very well , not so sure a detailed landscape or macro shot would

However I find as someone who prints large quite often that very large prints tend to draw folk in, after a look at full image they almost invariably move closer to look at the fine detail. This is where lower resolution sensors tend to fall apart, but at normal viewing distances you can get away with it .Using the admittedly dubious standard 300ppi print quality setting a 3x2 crop from a 20mp m43 sensor prints to just under 18x12"

Click to expand...

The OP might find useful the Imaging Resources recommended print sizes from these cameras which factors in the effect of high ISO.

Z6: Impressive, high-quality 30 x 40-inch prints all the way up to ISO 800; Pleasing 11 x 14-inch prints at ISO 12,800; Usable 5 x 7-inch prints at ISO 51,200.

EM1mkII: A terrific 30 x 40 inch print at ISO 64/200, a good 16 x 20 inch print at ISO 800, and a nice 5 x 7 at ISO 12,800

If you're a base ISO shooter, it likely wont matter which camera you're using. But the larger sensor affords more flexibility in the event you have to raise ISO.

There's also a matter of cost and weight.

Z6 + 24-70/2.8: $4,100 USD (1480g)

EM1mkII + 12-35/2.8: $2,300 (879g)

You could save a little money going with the f/4 Nikkor lens as an alternative but then your total light gathering ability falls to 1-stop advantage with the larger sensor.

James Stirling said:

Jim Kasson, recently did a test of a few upscaling software options

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63040633

Now if you can shoot in a situation where you can take advantage of the pixel shift tech you can get excellent results from the E-M1II but you are of course restricted to static subjects.

Click to expand...

Again, not true. Pixel shift on any system is not limited to static subjects. You can have motion in the scene but it will not "freeze" all motion just like slow shutter speeds will not "freeze" all motion in a scene.

Thank you so much for your replies. Especially when you take time to answer from a hospital bed! Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

I think we are going to see the MFT cameras with built in AI gigapixel in the near future as hardware AI chips get smaller. Not just to analyze the pixels and 'adjust them' but also to fill in the space between the pixels. Just as we use Bayer array dithering to manufacture colors for adjacent pixels, luminosity values for the space in between pixels can be approximated to give a 'pixel-free' (not really) image.

Anyway the real issue that all of you shed positive light on is appreciated. The use of an oly omd-M2 is my next task. Ill prob wait for black friday sales.

Henry Falkner said:

James Stirling said:

I am typing from hospital just had a knee replacement, waiting on the Gestapo sorry Physiotherapists as they like to be known for some torture.

Click to expand...

Had a hip replacement three years ago. Sandra re-arranged the house to keep on the right side of the authorities which decided whether I should get the replacement in the first place. I thought she was way over the top, and called her Hitler. Then - the lady who delivered the crutches asked precisely the questions I thought Sandra was merely panicking about.

Sandra came with me to the hospital to see the surgeon who made the decision. Having demonstrated already that she was up to the task, Sandra found herself in charge of my aftercare. The doctor said - 'Sandra and you are working as a team on your recovery.' My radio club friends said - 'This means, do as you are told!'

Three years later, everyone I know tells me how well I am walking - without a stick too.

I also hear about guys who thought they knew better, and three month later they are in a wheel chair.

I am therefore asking you to consider the possibility that the physios do know what they are talking about.

I wish you well - so you can go back to playing with your favourite cameras.

Henry

Click to expand...

Thanks for the good advice Henry I was just having a bit of fun Physiotherapists do great work , though it is still possible that even the petite lady { Carol } doing my therapy could have qualified as a sergeant major in the SAS. I hope to be out walking the hills and glens as soon as possible

bwana said:

Obviously if i had a tripod or amazing shot discipline, the nikon would be the choice. But the issue is one of handling- a d850 gives great images-when using a tripod. But using it hand held is a chore -- mirror slap, shutter shock,etc. Sure the z6 /z7 have ibis but not nearly as good as olympus. And the awesome resolution of the d850 shows every little defect in your technique.

Of course I am not addressing other fundamental differences - MFT has greater depth of field but the files are more brittle. Exposing much above base iso gives files that are sensitive to post. FF otoh, offers bokeh beauty and those nikon files are awesome for their dynamic range and ability to recover detail.

I know there are those of you with hands of steel and insane breath holding ability who can use a z7 flawlessly handheld, but I am only human. And multi shot HDR or pixel shift are also not in the equation here- those need a tripod and a motionless subject. I have enough trouble blending bracketed images to know that multiple images bring many problems and the 'handheld hi-res' is not ready for primetime.

But assuming we compare an oly omd-mark2 with the pro 12-35 lens to a z6 with the 24-70 f2.8, would properly exposed files printed to 24 x 36 be distinguishable if the oly file had AI gigapixel processing?

Click to expand...

In my comparing several resizing programs, including gigapixel plus the one built in photoshop - forgot its name, and ON1 Resize, I find that with pixel peeping, I like ON1 Resize the best.

So the physio is a she! Might have guessed.

All the best then.

This is Sandra after she checked me for infection.



Henry

--
Henry Falkner - E-M10 Mark II, SH-1, SH-50, SP-570UZ
http://www.pbase.com/hfalkner

Have fun(?) with the knee therapy. It'll be better (really) in a few months!

Getting old is a real bitc......

Henry Falkner said:

So the physio is a she! Might have guessed.

All the best then.

Henry

Click to expand...

Henry considering the pain a petite 5'2" women can induce I hate to think what a big bruiser of a man could cause. I will follow her orders to the letter { not that I think I have a say in it }. Thanks again for the kind thoughts and prudent advice

Rich K said:

Have fun(?) with the knee therapy. It'll be better (really) in a few months!

Getting old is a real bitc......

Click to expand...

Rich, I am doing my niece's wedding photos on the 30th of Oct so hopefully I will be able to get around by then one way or another The knee therapy was about as much fun as a kick in the knackers

--
Jim Stirling:
It is not reason which is the guide of life, but custom. David Hume

You were quick! I was going to add that it was Sandra's birthday, and the picture was for her mum.

Henry