If you like DSLR/OVF for fast actions, but also like EVF for other situations

It's a full-scale airplane, far away, moving steadily at a low angular rate, widely framed and at only 300mm-equivalent. The math says it's 175m away. This is 41m away going 200+mph (the equivalent of the Sea Fury at 1,700mph, which would be bad) and because it's a model, it's much more erratic being much lighter and more affected by turbulence. It's also tightly framed and taken at 750mm equivalent. This shot is easily 10-20 times harder than your Sea Fury shot, and it's not nearly the hardest thing I regularly shoot.

7D2_67219.jpg
"The actual speed does not matter, what matters is the speed of the object along the frame. This photo does not prove anything because we do not know what you framed and when you pressed the shutter. Also, in this case, your subject is basically stationary to the frame."

"The fact remains - when you pan, you main subject is basically stationary. The lag/delay matters for the background only."

"You have a large object (relative to the frame)"


So there you go. Since you have a large object relative to the frame and the subject is stationary to the frame, that photo can't count as an example of good tracking.
Actually it can ...
Not if we apply J A C S's criteria.

The subject is stationary to the frame..!
Actually it is not ... the subject is ACTUALLY physically located several ms AHEAD of (this) spot where photographed.

Please be aware that the biggest problem is NOT with the "first" photo, the fact is that it is indeed ahead already but as you indicate you can indeed "track" that with relative ease.

HOWEVER ... the problem occurs with REPEAT shot because after (even ML) blackout and image reappears the new image is WAY behind where it was. So true accurate panning is IMPOSSIBLE w/ moving subjects and continuous shooting. You are always playing "catch-up" between shots.

W/ OVF-mirror blackout, the image is still EXACTLY AS PANNED when the image reappears.

LEE IS CORRECT that it is a PROBLEM ... (not as bad as he exaggerates w/ new EVF's).
 
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Answer me a simple question.

I did an experiment. From the same location and with the same repeatable subject, I could track that subject at 600mm with an OVF, at 600mm with the OVF but shooting at 7fps and at 200mm with 25ms of EVF lag.

The question is, why was that the result of that experiment?
Because that was the result you wanted from the experiment before you went into it.

I will accept that you suffer from some form of over-sensitivity that makes you incompatible with an EVF, but please accept that there are plenty of photographers out here who have no problems in tracking fast-moving subjects with an EVF.
And then you show a bunch of slow moving subjects easy to shoot.
DSC01396_lrc-L.jpg


DSC02587%20c1%201c-L.jpg


DSC00475_lrc-L.jpg


A Hawker Sea Fury is slow moving at 400+ MPH?
It's a full-scale airplane, far away, moving steadily at a low angular rate, widely framed and at only 300mm-equivalent. The math says it's 175m away. This is 41m away going 200+mph (the equivalent of the Sea Fury at 1,700mph, which would be bad) and because it's a model, it's much more erratic being much lighter and more affected by turbulence. It's also tightly framed and taken at 750mm equivalent. This shot is easily 10-20 times harder than your Sea Fury shot, and it's not nearly the hardest thing I regularly shoot.

7D2_67219.jpg
The crop on the above shot is impressive, giving the maximum of size of model within the frame, but it is not ideal from a composition point of view (granted that might not be what you are going for). The Sea Fury shot is composed like that to give the viewer some space for the aircraft to move into - I would also argue that the Sea Fury shot gives a greater impression of speed due to the blur in the background - I have no doubt that the F16 model was going at a fair clip, but because there is no reference point to judge speed against it could be static... I've found this a problem shooting fast cars, which, if you shoot them with high enough shutter speeds can actually look like they are parked in the middle of the track - hence my use of slower shutter speeds (which I would point out require pretty good tracking to get an acceptably sharp aircraft/bike/car against a blurred background).
It is moving fast enough that the clouds behind are showing motion blur...

Anyhow...so if one of the fastest prop-driven aircraft ever built, or a race car, or a motorbike in extreme lean around a corner of a Grand-Prix circuit within 20ft of the photographer are not the fast-moving subjects that you are referring to, will you grant that people can shoot subjects of those sort of speeds confidently with an EVF?
I'll grant it's possible, but better and more reliable with an OVF.
I'd love for you to post us a picture that shows one of the fast moving subjects that you think is beyond the capability of an EVF...
I never said it was impossible. I said that it's easier and more reliable to track high speed subjects with an OVF because of the lack of lag. The lack of lag means you can frame more tightly or get a higher keeper rate. That doesn't mean the keeper rate with lag is zero, just lower.
...at the end of the day, it doesn't matter - they both work - it is just kit that you use to get a shot. The shot is what matters.
And at the end of that day, I couldn't get the shots I was required to get for work because of the lag caused by the EVF. I completed the project successfully with the SLR with tripod and fluid head.
Lee, I have no doubt that you have rational opinions on lots of subjects, but your vehement attitude towards EVFs and their capabilities and your inability to let anything go, or to grant that some photographers get on fine with them, just undermines whatever credibility you might have had on the subject.
My contention on this subject is backed up by the math of closed-loop control systems. That means, I'm right and everyone claiming lag doesn't matter is wrong. Lag does matter for tracking. That's not an opinion, it's a fact of the math of closed loop control. If you shoot slow or stationary subjects, the amount that it matters may be immaterial to you, but that doesn't mean it's impact doesn't exist. It also means it's impact might be crucial to others.
My contention is based on my real-world experience with EVFs after a lifetime of using both direct view/rangefinder and SLR viewfinders - I will grant that my definition of high speed subjects might top out at 400MPH and your scale speeds may be higher, but I'd still argue that a bit of adaptation and acquired technique can work wonders. Optical viewfinders are lovely, but for my photography (which is quite varied), the EVF works fine.

--
Save a life, become a stem-cell donor.
Hello to Jason Isaacs!
https://bobjanes.smugmug.com/PoTB/
 
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Answer me a simple question.

I did an experiment. From the same location and with the same repeatable subject, I could track that subject at 600mm with an OVF, at 600mm with the OVF but shooting at 7fps and at 200mm with 25ms of EVF lag.

The question is, why was that the result of that experiment?
Because that was the result you wanted from the experiment before you went into it.

I will accept that you suffer from some form of over-sensitivity that makes you incompatible with an EVF, but please accept that there are plenty of photographers out here who have no problems in tracking fast-moving subjects with an EVF.
And then you show a bunch of slow moving subjects easy to shoot.
DSC01396_lrc-L.jpg


DSC02587%20c1%201c-L.jpg


DSC00475_lrc-L.jpg


A Hawker Sea Fury is slow moving at 400+ MPH?
It's a full-scale airplane, far away, moving steadily at a low angular rate, widely framed and at only 300mm-equivalent. The math says it's 175m away. This is 41m away going 200+mph (the equivalent of the Sea Fury at 1,700mph, which would be bad) and because it's a model, it's much more erratic being much lighter and more affected by turbulence. It's also tightly framed and taken at 750mm equivalent. This shot is easily 10-20 times harder than your Sea Fury shot, and it's not nearly the hardest thing I regularly shoot.

7D2_67219.jpg
The crop on the above shot is impressive, giving the maximum of size of model within the frame, but it is not ideal from a composition point of view (granted that might not be what you are going for). The Sea Fury shot is composed like that to give the viewer some space for the aircraft to move into - I would also argue that the Sea Fury shot gives a greater impression of speed due to the blur in the background - I have no doubt that the F16 model was going at a fair clip, but because there is no reference point to judge speed against it could be static... I've found this a problem shooting fast cars, which, if you shoot them with high enough shutter speeds can actually look like they are parked in the middle of the track - hence my use of slower shutter speeds (which I would point out require pretty good tracking to get an acceptably sharp aircraft/bike/car against a blurred background).
I thought we were talking tracking. But whatever, I've got thousands upon thousands of these.

7D2_67234.jpg


7D2_67958.jpg




7D2_68197.jpg


It is moving fast enough that the clouds behind are showing motion blur...

Anyhow...so if one of the fastest prop-driven aircraft ever built, or a race car, or a motorbike in extreme lean around a corner of a Grand-Prix circuit within 20ft of the photographer are not the fast-moving subjects that you are referring to, will you grant that people can shoot subjects of those sort of speeds confidently with an EVF?
I'll grant it's possible, but better and more reliable with an OVF.
I'd love for you to post us a picture that shows one of the fast moving subjects that you think is beyond the capability of an EVF...
I never said it was impossible. I said that it's easier and more reliable to track high speed subjects with an OVF because of the lack of lag. The lack of lag means you can frame more tightly or get a higher keeper rate. That doesn't mean the keeper rate with lag is zero, just lower.
...at the end of the day, it doesn't matter - they both work - it is just kit that you use to get a shot. The shot is what matters.
And at the end of that day, I couldn't get the shots I was required to get for work because of the lag caused by the EVF. I completed the project successfully with the SLR with tripod and fluid head.
Lee, I have no doubt that you have rational opinions on lots of subjects, but your vehement attitude towards EVFs and their capabilities and your inability to let anything go, or to grant that some photographers get on fine with them, just undermines whatever credibility you might have had on the subject.
My contention on this subject is backed up by the math of closed-loop control systems. That means, I'm right and everyone claiming lag doesn't matter is wrong. Lag does matter for tracking. That's not an opinion, it's a fact of the math of closed loop control. If you shoot slow or stationary subjects, the amount that it matters may be immaterial to you, but that doesn't mean it's impact doesn't exist. It also means it's impact might be crucial to others.
My contention is based on my real-world experience with EVFs after a lifetime of using both direct view/rangefinder and SLR viewfinders - I will grant that my definition of high speed subjects might top out at 400MPH and your scale speeds may be higher, but I'd still argue that a bit of adaptation and acquired technique can work wonders. Optical viewfinders are lovely, but for my photography (which is quite varied), the EVF works fine.
And that may well be true.

My contention is simple, and supported by control theory. Whatever you can do with lag in the system you can do better without the lag. Or, you can do more without lag than you can with lag.

As I said, these were no where near my most challenging tracking situations. Try tracking, by hand, a 9m object, in orbit, from 400km away, at night, at 4,300mm equivalent through f/21 optics while it files straight over your head and you have to manually focus.

--
Lee Jay
 
Answer me a simple question.

I did an experiment. From the same location and with the same repeatable subject, I could track that subject at 600mm with an OVF, at 600mm with the OVF but shooting at 7fps and at 200mm with 25ms of EVF lag.

The question is, why was that the result of that experiment?
Because that was the result you wanted from the experiment before you went into it.

I will accept that you suffer from some form of over-sensitivity that makes you incompatible with an EVF, but please accept that there are plenty of photographers out here who have no problems in tracking fast-moving subjects with an EVF.
And then you show a bunch of slow moving subjects easy to shoot.
DSC01396_lrc-L.jpg


DSC02587%20c1%201c-L.jpg


DSC00475_lrc-L.jpg


A Hawker Sea Fury is slow moving at 400+ MPH?
It's a full-scale airplane, far away, moving steadily at a low angular rate, widely framed and at only 300mm-equivalent. The math says it's 175m away. This is 41m away going 200+mph (the equivalent of the Sea Fury at 1,700mph, which would be bad) and because it's a model, it's much more erratic being much lighter and more affected by turbulence. It's also tightly framed and taken at 750mm equivalent. This shot is easily 10-20 times harder than your Sea Fury shot, and it's not nearly the hardest thing I regularly shoot.

7D2_67219.jpg
The crop on the above shot is impressive, giving the maximum of size of model within the frame, but it is not ideal from a composition point of view (granted that might not be what you are going for). The Sea Fury shot is composed like that to give the viewer some space for the aircraft to move into - I would also argue that the Sea Fury shot gives a greater impression of speed due to the blur in the background - I have no doubt that the F16 model was going at a fair clip, but because there is no reference point to judge speed against it could be static... I've found this a problem shooting fast cars, which, if you shoot them with high enough shutter speeds can actually look like they are parked in the middle of the track - hence my use of slower shutter speeds (which I would point out require pretty good tracking to get an acceptably sharp aircraft/bike/car against a blurred background).
I thought we were talking tracking. But whatever, I've got thousands upon thousands of these.

7D2_67234.jpg


7D2_67958.jpg


7D2_68197.jpg

It is moving fast enough that the clouds behind are showing motion blur...

Anyhow...so if one of the fastest prop-driven aircraft ever built, or a race car, or a motorbike in extreme lean around a corner of a Grand-Prix circuit within 20ft of the photographer are not the fast-moving subjects that you are referring to, will you grant that people can shoot subjects of those sort of speeds confidently with an EVF?
I'll grant it's possible, but better and more reliable with an OVF.
I'd love for you to post us a picture that shows one of the fast moving subjects that you think is beyond the capability of an EVF...
I never said it was impossible. I said that it's easier and more reliable to track high speed subjects with an OVF because of the lack of lag. The lack of lag means you can frame more tightly or get a higher keeper rate. That doesn't mean the keeper rate with lag is zero, just lower.
...at the end of the day, it doesn't matter - they both work - it is just kit that you use to get a shot. The shot is what matters.
And at the end of that day, I couldn't get the shots I was required to get for work because of the lag caused by the EVF. I completed the project successfully with the SLR with tripod and fluid head.
Lee, I have no doubt that you have rational opinions on lots of subjects, but your vehement attitude towards EVFs and their capabilities and your inability to let anything go, or to grant that some photographers get on fine with them, just undermines whatever credibility you might have had on the subject.
My contention on this subject is backed up by the math of closed-loop control systems. That means, I'm right and everyone claiming lag doesn't matter is wrong. Lag does matter for tracking. That's not an opinion, it's a fact of the math of closed loop control. If you shoot slow or stationary subjects, the amount that it matters may be immaterial to you, but that doesn't mean it's impact doesn't exist. It also means it's impact might be crucial to others.
My contention is based on my real-world experience with EVFs after a lifetime of using both direct view/rangefinder and SLR viewfinders - I will grant that my definition of high speed subjects might top out at 400MPH and your scale speeds may be higher, but I'd still argue that a bit of adaptation and acquired technique can work wonders. Optical viewfinders are lovely, but for my photography (which is quite varied), the EVF works fine.
And that may well be true.

My contention is simple, and supported by control theory. Whatever you can do with lag in the system you can do better without the lag. Or, you can do more without lag than you can with lag.

As I said, these were no where near my most challenging tracking situations. Try tracking, by hand, a 9m object, in orbit, from 400km away, at night, at 4,300mm equivalent through f/21 optics while it files straight over your head and you have to manually focus.

--
Lee Jay
Shutter count or it didn't happen.
 
Answer me a simple question.

I did an experiment. From the same location and with the same repeatable subject, I could track that subject at 600mm with an OVF, at 600mm with the OVF but shooting at 7fps and at 200mm with 25ms of EVF lag.

The question is, why was that the result of that experiment?
Because that was the result you wanted from the experiment before you went into it.

I will accept that you suffer from some form of over-sensitivity that makes you incompatible with an EVF, but please accept that there are plenty of photographers out here who have no problems in tracking fast-moving subjects with an EVF.
And then you show a bunch of slow moving subjects easy to shoot.
DSC01396_lrc-L.jpg


DSC02587%20c1%201c-L.jpg


DSC00475_lrc-L.jpg


A Hawker Sea Fury is slow moving at 400+ MPH?
It's a full-scale airplane, far away, moving steadily at a low angular rate, widely framed and at only 300mm-equivalent. The math says it's 175m away. This is 41m away going 200+mph (the equivalent of the Sea Fury at 1,700mph, which would be bad) and because it's a model, it's much more erratic being much lighter and more affected by turbulence. It's also tightly framed and taken at 750mm equivalent. This shot is easily 10-20 times harder than your Sea Fury shot, and it's not nearly the hardest thing I regularly shoot.

7D2_67219.jpg
The crop on the above shot is impressive, giving the maximum of size of model within the frame, but it is not ideal from a composition point of view (granted that might not be what you are going for). The Sea Fury shot is composed like that to give the viewer some space for the aircraft to move into - I would also argue that the Sea Fury shot gives a greater impression of speed due to the blur in the background - I have no doubt that the F16 model was going at a fair clip, but because there is no reference point to judge speed against it could be static... I've found this a problem shooting fast cars, which, if you shoot them with high enough shutter speeds can actually look like they are parked in the middle of the track - hence my use of slower shutter speeds (which I would point out require pretty good tracking to get an acceptably sharp aircraft/bike/car against a blurred background).
I thought we were talking tracking. But whatever, I've got thousands upon thousands of these.

7D2_67234.jpg


7D2_67958.jpg


7D2_68197.jpg

It is moving fast enough that the clouds behind are showing motion blur...

Anyhow...so if one of the fastest prop-driven aircraft ever built, or a race car, or a motorbike in extreme lean around a corner of a Grand-Prix circuit within 20ft of the photographer are not the fast-moving subjects that you are referring to, will you grant that people can shoot subjects of those sort of speeds confidently with an EVF?
I'll grant it's possible, but better and more reliable with an OVF.
I'd love for you to post us a picture that shows one of the fast moving subjects that you think is beyond the capability of an EVF...
I never said it was impossible. I said that it's easier and more reliable to track high speed subjects with an OVF because of the lack of lag. The lack of lag means you can frame more tightly or get a higher keeper rate. That doesn't mean the keeper rate with lag is zero, just lower.
...at the end of the day, it doesn't matter - they both work - it is just kit that you use to get a shot. The shot is what matters.
And at the end of that day, I couldn't get the shots I was required to get for work because of the lag caused by the EVF. I completed the project successfully with the SLR with tripod and fluid head.
Lee, I have no doubt that you have rational opinions on lots of subjects, but your vehement attitude towards EVFs and their capabilities and your inability to let anything go, or to grant that some photographers get on fine with them, just undermines whatever credibility you might have had on the subject.
My contention on this subject is backed up by the math of closed-loop control systems. That means, I'm right and everyone claiming lag doesn't matter is wrong. Lag does matter for tracking. That's not an opinion, it's a fact of the math of closed loop control. If you shoot slow or stationary subjects, the amount that it matters may be immaterial to you, but that doesn't mean it's impact doesn't exist. It also means it's impact might be crucial to others.
My contention is based on my real-world experience with EVFs after a lifetime of using both direct view/rangefinder and SLR viewfinders - I will grant that my definition of high speed subjects might top out at 400MPH and your scale speeds may be higher, but I'd still argue that a bit of adaptation and acquired technique can work wonders. Optical viewfinders are lovely, but for my photography (which is quite varied), the EVF works fine.
And that may well be true.

My contention is simple, and supported by control theory. Whatever you can do with lag in the system you can do better without the lag. Or, you can do more without lag than you can with lag.

As I said, these were no where near my most challenging tracking situations. Try tracking, by hand, a 9m object, in orbit, from 400km away, at night, at 4,300mm equivalent through f/21 optics while it files straight over your head and you have to manually focus.
Wow, I wonder what's harder: that or juggling 5 balls while standing on your head and hopping on one foot for a cirque du soleil audition.

Why not automate the tracking? Computer software/hardware tracking is now much smarter than humans, even those who could give robots a run for their money.

--
"Gotta catch em all," he muttered. "Gotta catch em all,"...
 
Last edited:
And that may well be true.

My contention is simple, and supported by control theory. Whatever you can do with lag in the system you can do better without the lag. Or, you can do more without lag than you can with lag.

As I said, these were no where near my most challenging tracking situations. Try tracking, by hand, a 9m object, in orbit, from 400km away, at night, at 4,300mm equivalent through f/21 optics while it files straight over your head and you have to manually focus.
Wow, I wonder what's harder: that or juggling 5 balls while standing on your head and hopping on one foot for a cirque du soleil audition.
Well, I can juggle 5 balls (juggling is one of my 7 hobbies), but not upside down. I'll leave the tough stuff to Anthony Gatto.
Why not automate the tracking?
It's much harder than it sounds. The only person I know who did it wrote all his own software, and still uses a gaming joystick to make real-time corrections.
 
I had the same thoughts. This is all Canon has to do. EVFs will sell like hotcakes.

e524477915f249c0a41b524f29baa1df.jpg
 
And that may well be true.

My contention is simple, and supported by control theory. Whatever you can do with lag in the system you can do better without the lag. Or, you can do more without lag than you can with lag.
True, but not all closed loop control systems with lag are unstable. Humans tracking manually with a VF also contribute lag in the system because of natural reaction time. A slow human using a OVF with zero lag can also cause an unstable system as we well know.

It is the combined EVF lag plus the human reaction lag and any other system lag that determine if the system is stable or unstable.
As I said, these were no where near my most challenging tracking situations. Try tracking, by hand, a 9m object, in orbit, from 400km away, at night, at 4,300mm equivalent through f/21 optics while it files straight over your head and you have to manually focus.
Wow, I wonder what's harder: that or juggling 5 balls while standing on your head and hopping on one foot for a cirque du soleil audition.
Well, I can juggle 5 balls (juggling is one of my 7 hobbies), but not upside down. I'll leave the tough stuff to Anthony Gatto.
Why not automate the tracking?
It's much harder than it sounds. The only person I know who did it wrote all his own software, and still uses a gaming joystick to make real-time corrections.
 
Last edited:
Answer me a simple question.

I did an experiment. From the same location and with the same repeatable subject, I could track that subject at 600mm with an OVF, at 600mm with the OVF but shooting at 7fps and at 200mm with 25ms of EVF lag.

The question is, why was that the result of that experiment?
Because that was the result you wanted from the experiment before you went into it.

I will accept that you suffer from some form of over-sensitivity that makes you incompatible with an EVF, but please accept that there are plenty of photographers out here who have no problems in tracking fast-moving subjects with an EVF.
And then you show a bunch of slow moving subjects easy to shoot.
DSC01396_lrc-L.jpg


DSC02587%20c1%201c-L.jpg


DSC00475_lrc-L.jpg


A Hawker Sea Fury is slow moving at 400+ MPH?
It's a full-scale airplane, far away, moving steadily at a low angular rate, widely framed and at only 300mm-equivalent. The math says it's 175m away. This is 41m away going 200+mph (the equivalent of the Sea Fury at 1,700mph, which would be bad) and because it's a model, it's much more erratic being much lighter and more affected by turbulence. It's also tightly framed and taken at 750mm equivalent. This shot is easily 10-20 times harder than your Sea Fury shot, and it's not nearly the hardest thing I regularly shoot.

7D2_67219.jpg
The crop on the above shot is impressive, giving the maximum of size of model within the frame, but it is not ideal from a composition point of view (granted that might not be what you are going for). The Sea Fury shot is composed like that to give the viewer some space for the aircraft to move into - I would also argue that the Sea Fury shot gives a greater impression of speed due to the blur in the background - I have no doubt that the F16 model was going at a fair clip, but because there is no reference point to judge speed against it could be static... I've found this a problem shooting fast cars, which, if you shoot them with high enough shutter speeds can actually look like they are parked in the middle of the track - hence my use of slower shutter speeds (which I would point out require pretty good tracking to get an acceptably sharp aircraft/bike/car against a blurred background).
I thought we were talking tracking. But whatever, I've got thousands upon thousands of these.

7D2_67234.jpg


7D2_67958.jpg


7D2_68197.jpg

It is moving fast enough that the clouds behind are showing motion blur...

Anyhow...so if one of the fastest prop-driven aircraft ever built, or a race car, or a motorbike in extreme lean around a corner of a Grand-Prix circuit within 20ft of the photographer are not the fast-moving subjects that you are referring to, will you grant that people can shoot subjects of those sort of speeds confidently with an EVF?
I'll grant it's possible, but better and more reliable with an OVF.
I'd love for you to post us a picture that shows one of the fast moving subjects that you think is beyond the capability of an EVF...
I never said it was impossible. I said that it's easier and more reliable to track high speed subjects with an OVF because of the lack of lag. The lack of lag means you can frame more tightly or get a higher keeper rate. That doesn't mean the keeper rate with lag is zero, just lower.
...at the end of the day, it doesn't matter - they both work - it is just kit that you use to get a shot. The shot is what matters.
And at the end of that day, I couldn't get the shots I was required to get for work because of the lag caused by the EVF. I completed the project successfully with the SLR with tripod and fluid head.
Lee, I have no doubt that you have rational opinions on lots of subjects, but your vehement attitude towards EVFs and their capabilities and your inability to let anything go, or to grant that some photographers get on fine with them, just undermines whatever credibility you might have had on the subject.
My contention on this subject is backed up by the math of closed-loop control systems. That means, I'm right and everyone claiming lag doesn't matter is wrong. Lag does matter for tracking. That's not an opinion, it's a fact of the math of closed loop control. If you shoot slow or stationary subjects, the amount that it matters may be immaterial to you, but that doesn't mean it's impact doesn't exist. It also means it's impact might be crucial to others.
My contention is based on my real-world experience with EVFs after a lifetime of using both direct view/rangefinder and SLR viewfinders - I will grant that my definition of high speed subjects might top out at 400MPH and your scale speeds may be higher, but I'd still argue that a bit of adaptation and acquired technique can work wonders. Optical viewfinders are lovely, but for my photography (which is quite varied), the EVF works fine.
And that may well be true.

My contention is simple, and supported by control theory. Whatever you can do with lag in the system you can do better without the lag. Or, you can do more without lag than you can with lag.

As I said, these were no where near my most challenging tracking situations. Try tracking, by hand, a 9m object, in orbit, from 400km away, at night, at 4,300mm equivalent through f/21 optics while it files straight over your head and you have to manually focus.
Wow, I wonder what's harder: that or juggling 5 balls while standing on your head and hopping on one foot for a cirque du soleil audition.
That "juggling" .... with or w/OUT "lag" ???
 
And that may well be true.

My contention is simple, and supported by control theory. Whatever you can do with lag in the system you can do better without the lag. Or, you can do more without lag than you can with lag.
True, but not all closed loop control systems with lag are unstable. Humans tracking manually with a VF also contribute lag in the system because of natural reaction time. A slow human using a OVF with zero lag can also cause an unstable system as we well know.
You are still mixing apples & oranges ...

Just like EVF-lag and mirror/shutter-lag are different problems that require different mental compensation, SO IS "REACTION" lag.
It is the combined EVF lag plus the human reaction lag and any other system lag that determine if the system is stable or unstable.
True ... but that does not change the fact that each separate/different lag's require different mental-compensation.

I can understand Lee's point that OVF tracking can be easier, (if subject is PREDICTABLE and NOT ERRATIC). With "0" OVF lag, you indeed can "track" accurately and the subject can be STILL CENTERED after mirror/shutter-lag and AFTER the mirror returns down.

With EVF-lag, the subject is ALWAYS AHEAD (of image) even before the "first" exposure. So that is already a problem because you are inherently always playing catch-up.

BUT ... the problem becomes infinitely worse AFTER the "first" exposure because the returning "live" image is (now double) WAY BEHIND the original subject movement, (even IF YOUR PANNING WAS PERFECT). So the biggest problem is with that "second" (and each sequential) shot(s) of a sequence.

But Lee has a bigger problem when he relies on the (slower) LCD on an (older) LV-LCD that is not optimized for minimum lag. Beginners should be aware that newer EVF are faster, (in both lag and frame-rate).
As I said, these were no where near my most challenging tracking situations. Try tracking, by hand, a 9m object, in orbit, from 400km away, at night, at 4,300mm equivalent through f/21 optics while it files straight over your head and you have to manually focus.
Wow, I wonder what's harder: that or juggling 5 balls while standing on your head and hopping on one foot for a cirque du soleil audition.
Well, I can juggle 5 balls (juggling is one of my 7 hobbies), but not upside down. I'll leave the tough stuff to Anthony Gatto.
Why not automate the tracking?
It's much harder than it sounds. The only person I know who did it wrote all his own software, and still uses a gaming joystick to make real-time corrections.
 
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It won't take much for Canon to lock the mirror up for when it goes into evf mode.

The 90d has the same sensor as the M6ii. Performance should be the same using the LCD screen for both cameras.
 
It won't take much for Canon to lock the mirror up for when it goes into evf mode.

The 90d has the same sensor as the M6ii. Performance should be the same using the LCD screen for both cameras.
There are many more differences between dSLR-LV and native ML camera.

Unless "TESTS" prove me wrong, (on this specific camera), there has not been any other LV that equals a ML shutter-lag. (even though Canon has had hybrid-PD sensors for some time and their lag is indeed shorter than Nikon, but not as fast as any other ML)
 
And that may well be true.

My contention is simple, and supported by control theory. Whatever you can do with lag in the system you can do better without the lag. Or, you can do more without lag than you can with lag.
True, but not all closed loop control systems with lag are unstable. Humans tracking manually with a VF also contribute lag in the system because of natural reaction time. A slow human using a OVF with zero lag can also cause an unstable system as we well know.
You are still mixing apples & oranges ...

Just like EVF-lag and mirror/shutter-lag are different problems that require different mental compensation, SO IS "REACTION" lag.
I am just talking about apples. I am talking about what constitute the closed loop control just to track and keep the object in frame, not to take the picture. Taking the picture is another operation which also involves the human reaction lag as well as the shutter (and autofocus if applicable) lag. It is another loop which is an open loop. There are two different cases where human reaction comes into play.


It is the combined EVF lag plus the human reaction lag and any other system lag that determine if the system is stable or unstable.
True ... but that does not change the fact that each separate/different lag's require different mental-compensation.
OK
I can understand Lee's point that OVF tracking can be easier, (if subject is PREDICTABLE and NOT ERRATIC). With "0" OVF lag, you indeed can "track" accurately and the subject can be STILL CENTERED after mirror/shutter-lag and AFTER the mirror returns down.
He talks in generalities like easy or hard. I'm talking about being a stable or unstable closed loop control systems. Only when the lag exceed a critical point does the closed loop system mathematically becomes unstable.
With EVF-lag, the subject is ALWAYS AHEAD even before the "first" exposure. So that is already a problem because you are inherently always playing catch-up.
It's how much ahead and that depends on the EVF lag and the speed of the object. Obviously if the EVF lag is small and the object speed is slow there is no problem. There is a critical point for losing track and that is when the system becomes unstable.
BUT ... the problem is infinitely worse AFTER the "first" exposure because the returning "live" image is (double) WAY BEHIND the original subject movement, (even IF YOUR PANNING WAS PERFECT). So the biggest problem is with that "second" (and each sequential) shot(s) of a sequence.
Each shot is independent.
But Lee has a bigger problem when he relies on the (slower) LCD on a (older) LV-LCD that is not optimized for minimum lag. Beginners should be aware that newer EVF are faster, (in both lag and frame-rate).
Again, only if the overall lag (EVF lag and human reaction lag) exceed other system parameters does the system become unstable, ie, you lose track of the object. So, yes, with a small EVF lag and agile person with quick reaction successful tracking of fairly fast moving objects is achievable as some have shown here.
As I said, these were no where near my most challenging tracking situations. Try tracking, by hand, a 9m object, in orbit, from 400km away, at night, at 4,300mm equivalent through f/21 optics while it files straight over your head and you have to manually focus.
Wow, I wonder what's harder: that or juggling 5 balls while standing on your head and hopping on one foot for a cirque du soleil audition.
Well, I can juggle 5 balls (juggling is one of my 7 hobbies), but not upside down. I'll leave the tough stuff to Anthony Gatto.
Why not automate the tracking?
It's much harder than it sounds. The only person I know who did it wrote all his own software, and still uses a gaming joystick to make real-time corrections.
 
And that may well be true.

My contention is simple, and supported by control theory. Whatever you can do with lag in the system you can do better without the lag. Or, you can do more without lag than you can with lag.
True, but not all closed loop control systems with lag are unstable. Humans tracking manually with a VF also contribute lag in the system because of natural reaction time. A slow human using a OVF with zero lag can also cause an unstable system as we well know.
You are still mixing apples & oranges ...

Just like EVF-lag and mirror/shutter-lag are different problems that require different mental compensation, SO IS "REACTION" lag.
I am just talking about apples. I am talking about what constitute the closed loop control just to track and keep the object in frame, not to take the picture. Taking the picture is another operation which also involves the human reaction lag

as well as the shutter (and autofocus if applicable) lag. It is another loop which is an open loop. There are two different cases where human reaction comes into play.
Human Reaction Lag is mainly a problem w/ unpredictable/erratic subjects.
It is the combined EVF lag plus the human reaction lag and any other system lag that determine if the system is stable or unstable.
True ... but that does not change the fact that each separate/different lag's require different mental-compensation.
OK
I can understand Lee's point that OVF tracking can be easier, (if subject is PREDICTABLE and NOT ERRATIC). With "0" OVF lag, you indeed can "track" accurately and the subject can be STILL CENTERED after mirror/shutter-lag and AFTER the mirror returns down.
He talks in generalities like easy or hard. I'm talking about being a stable or unstable closed loop control systems. Only when the lag exceed a critical point does the closed loop system mathematically becomes unstable.
I suggest that ANY lag can be problematic to some degree.
With EVF-lag, the subject is ALWAYS AHEAD even before the "first" exposure. So that is already a problem because you are inherently always playing catch-up.
It's how much ahead and that depends on the EVF lag and the speed of the object. Obviously if the EVF lag is small and the object speed is slow there is no problem. There is a critical point for losing track and that is when the system becomes unstable.
Again ... I suggest that ANY lag can be problematic to some degree.
BUT ... the problem is infinitely worse AFTER the "first" exposure because the returning "live" image is (double) WAY BEHIND the original subject movement, (even IF YOUR PANNING WAS PERFECT). So the biggest problem is with that "second" (and each sequential) shot(s) of a sequence.
Each shot is independent.
BUT ... you CANNOT SHOOT AGAIN unless you "catch-up" after each sequential shot ... and the FACT is that whatever original EVF-lag there is, is then (temporarily) DOUBLED with the "returning" image after each shot.

So the original "catching-up" is complicated with the returning image after each shot.

If you cannot understand that .. you are not thinking with an OPEN mind.
But Lee has a bigger problem when he relies on the (slower) LCD on a (older) LV-LCD that is not optimized for minimum lag. Beginners should be aware that newer EVF are faster, (in both lag and frame-rate).
Again, only if the overall lag (EVF lag and human reaction lag) exceed other system parameters does the system become unstable, ie, you lose track of the object. So, yes, with a small EVF lag and agile person with quick reaction successful tracking of fairly fast moving objects is achievable as some have shown here.
I have agreed that LEE is over-exaggerating the problem (w/ older/slower LCD) ... but his POINT is correct.
As I said, these were no where near my most challenging tracking situations. Try tracking, by hand, a 9m object, in orbit, from 400km away, at night, at 4,300mm equivalent through f/21 optics while it files straight over your head and you have to manually focus.
Wow, I wonder what's harder: that or juggling 5 balls while standing on your head and hopping on one foot for a cirque du soleil audition.
Well, I can juggle 5 balls (juggling is one of my 7 hobbies), but not upside down. I'll leave the tough stuff to Anthony Gatto.
Why not automate the tracking?
It's much harder than it sounds. The only person I know who did it wrote all his own software, and still uses a gaming joystick to make real-time corrections.
 
Answer me a simple question.

I did an experiment. From the same location and with the same repeatable subject, I could track that subject at 600mm with an OVF, at 600mm with the OVF but shooting at 7fps and at 200mm with 25ms of EVF lag.

The question is, why was that the result of that experiment?
Because that was the result you wanted from the experiment before you went into it.

I will accept that you suffer from some form of over-sensitivity that makes you incompatible with an EVF, but please accept that there are plenty of photographers out here who have no problems in tracking fast-moving subjects with an EVF.
And then you show a bunch of slow moving subjects easy to shoot.
DSC01396_lrc-L.jpg


DSC02587%20c1%201c-L.jpg


DSC00475_lrc-L.jpg


A Hawker Sea Fury is slow moving at 400+ MPH?
It's a full-scale airplane, far away, moving steadily at a low angular rate, widely framed and at only 300mm-equivalent. The math says it's 175m away. This is 41m away going 200+mph (the equivalent of the Sea Fury at 1,700mph, which would be bad) and because it's a model, it's much more erratic being much lighter and more affected by turbulence. It's also tightly framed and taken at 750mm equivalent. This shot is easily 10-20 times harder than your Sea Fury shot, and it's not nearly the hardest thing I regularly shoot.

7D2_67219.jpg
The crop on the above shot is impressive, giving the maximum of size of model within the frame, but it is not ideal from a composition point of view (granted that might not be what you are going for). The Sea Fury shot is composed like that to give the viewer some space for the aircraft to move into - I would also argue that the Sea Fury shot gives a greater impression of speed due to the blur in the background - I have no doubt that the F16 model was going at a fair clip, but because there is no reference point to judge speed against it could be static... I've found this a problem shooting fast cars, which, if you shoot them with high enough shutter speeds can actually look like they are parked in the middle of the track - hence my use of slower shutter speeds (which I would point out require pretty good tracking to get an acceptably sharp aircraft/bike/car against a blurred background).
I thought we were talking tracking. But whatever, I've got thousands upon thousands of these.

7D2_67234.jpg


7D2_67958.jpg


7D2_68197.jpg

It is moving fast enough that the clouds behind are showing motion blur...

Anyhow...so if one of the fastest prop-driven aircraft ever built, or a race car, or a motorbike in extreme lean around a corner of a Grand-Prix circuit within 20ft of the photographer are not the fast-moving subjects that you are referring to, will you grant that people can shoot subjects of those sort of speeds confidently with an EVF?
I'll grant it's possible, but better and more reliable with an OVF.
I'd love for you to post us a picture that shows one of the fast moving subjects that you think is beyond the capability of an EVF...
I never said it was impossible. I said that it's easier and more reliable to track high speed subjects with an OVF because of the lack of lag. The lack of lag means you can frame more tightly or get a higher keeper rate. That doesn't mean the keeper rate with lag is zero, just lower.
...at the end of the day, it doesn't matter - they both work - it is just kit that you use to get a shot. The shot is what matters.
And at the end of that day, I couldn't get the shots I was required to get for work because of the lag caused by the EVF. I completed the project successfully with the SLR with tripod and fluid head.
Lee, I have no doubt that you have rational opinions on lots of subjects, but your vehement attitude towards EVFs and their capabilities and your inability to let anything go, or to grant that some photographers get on fine with them, just undermines whatever credibility you might have had on the subject.
My contention on this subject is backed up by the math of closed-loop control systems. That means, I'm right and everyone claiming lag doesn't matter is wrong. Lag does matter for tracking. That's not an opinion, it's a fact of the math of closed loop control. If you shoot slow or stationary subjects, the amount that it matters may be immaterial to you, but that doesn't mean it's impact doesn't exist. It also means it's impact might be crucial to others.
My contention is based on my real-world experience with EVFs after a lifetime of using both direct view/rangefinder and SLR viewfinders - I will grant that my definition of high speed subjects might top out at 400MPH and your scale speeds may be higher, but I'd still argue that a bit of adaptation and acquired technique can work wonders. Optical viewfinders are lovely, but for my photography (which is quite varied), the EVF works fine.
And that may well be true.

My contention is simple, and supported by control theory. Whatever you can do with lag in the system you can do better without the lag. Or, you can do more without lag than you can with lag.

As I said, these were no where near my most challenging tracking situations. Try tracking, by hand, a 9m object, in orbit, from 400km away, at night, at 4,300mm equivalent through f/21 optics while it files straight over your head and you have to manually focus.
Shutter count or it didn't happen.
And let's not forget, *manually* focusing an object 400 km away at f/21. I can imagine how blurry the foreground and background was and the razor thin DOF....only 400 km away.
 
Answer me a simple question.

I did an experiment. From the same location and with the same repeatable subject, I could track that subject at 600mm with an OVF, at 600mm with the OVF but shooting at 7fps and at 200mm with 25ms of EVF lag.

The question is, why was that the result of that experiment?
Because that was the result you wanted from the experiment before you went into it.

I will accept that you suffer from some form of over-sensitivity that makes you incompatible with an EVF, but please accept that there are plenty of photographers out here who have no problems in tracking fast-moving subjects with an EVF.
And then you show a bunch of slow moving subjects easy to shoot.
DSC01396_lrc-L.jpg


DSC02587%20c1%201c-L.jpg


DSC00475_lrc-L.jpg


A Hawker Sea Fury is slow moving at 400+ MPH?
It's a full-scale airplane, far away, moving steadily at a low angular rate, widely framed and at only 300mm-equivalent. The math says it's 175m away. This is 41m away going 200+mph (the equivalent of the Sea Fury at 1,700mph, which would be bad) and because it's a model, it's much more erratic being much lighter and more affected by turbulence. It's also tightly framed and taken at 750mm equivalent. This shot is easily 10-20 times harder than your Sea Fury shot, and it's not nearly the hardest thing I regularly shoot.

7D2_67219.jpg
The crop on the above shot is impressive, giving the maximum of size of model within the frame, but it is not ideal from a composition point of view (granted that might not be what you are going for). The Sea Fury shot is composed like that to give the viewer some space for the aircraft to move into - I would also argue that the Sea Fury shot gives a greater impression of speed due to the blur in the background - I have no doubt that the F16 model was going at a fair clip, but because there is no reference point to judge speed against it could be static... I've found this a problem shooting fast cars, which, if you shoot them with high enough shutter speeds can actually look like they are parked in the middle of the track - hence my use of slower shutter speeds (which I would point out require pretty good tracking to get an acceptably sharp aircraft/bike/car against a blurred background).
I thought we were talking tracking. But whatever, I've got thousands upon thousands of these.

7D2_67234.jpg


7D2_67958.jpg


7D2_68197.jpg

It is moving fast enough that the clouds behind are showing motion blur...

Anyhow...so if one of the fastest prop-driven aircraft ever built, or a race car, or a motorbike in extreme lean around a corner of a Grand-Prix circuit within 20ft of the photographer are not the fast-moving subjects that you are referring to, will you grant that people can shoot subjects of those sort of speeds confidently with an EVF?
I'll grant it's possible, but better and more reliable with an OVF.
I'd love for you to post us a picture that shows one of the fast moving subjects that you think is beyond the capability of an EVF...
I never said it was impossible. I said that it's easier and more reliable to track high speed subjects with an OVF because of the lack of lag. The lack of lag means you can frame more tightly or get a higher keeper rate. That doesn't mean the keeper rate with lag is zero, just lower.
...at the end of the day, it doesn't matter - they both work - it is just kit that you use to get a shot. The shot is what matters.
And at the end of that day, I couldn't get the shots I was required to get for work because of the lag caused by the EVF. I completed the project successfully with the SLR with tripod and fluid head.
Lee, I have no doubt that you have rational opinions on lots of subjects, but your vehement attitude towards EVFs and their capabilities and your inability to let anything go, or to grant that some photographers get on fine with them, just undermines whatever credibility you might have had on the subject.
My contention on this subject is backed up by the math of closed-loop control systems. That means, I'm right and everyone claiming lag doesn't matter is wrong. Lag does matter for tracking. That's not an opinion, it's a fact of the math of closed loop control. If you shoot slow or stationary subjects, the amount that it matters may be immaterial to you, but that doesn't mean it's impact doesn't exist. It also means it's impact might be crucial to others.
My contention is based on my real-world experience with EVFs after a lifetime of using both direct view/rangefinder and SLR viewfinders - I will grant that my definition of high speed subjects might top out at 400MPH and your scale speeds may be higher, but I'd still argue that a bit of adaptation and acquired technique can work wonders. Optical viewfinders are lovely, but for my photography (which is quite varied), the EVF works fine.
And that may well be true.

My contention is simple, and supported by control theory. Whatever you can do with lag in the system you can do better without the lag. Or, you can do more without lag than you can with lag.

As I said, these were no where near my most challenging tracking situations. Try tracking, by hand, a 9m object, in orbit, from 400km away, at night, at 4,300mm equivalent through f/21 optics while it files straight over your head and you have to manually focus.
I don't know if an OVF may be a bit better with regards to tracking in some unlikely circumstances, but it's patently obvious who's the best photographer, and I'd dream to get those outcomes and not at all if I could help it the alternative.
 
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Panning with mirrorless.











panning with a dslr





















The shots from the D500 are posterised due to reducing image quality in jpeg to the smallest size. The delay caused by a EVF is there , you simply have to live with it But you kid only yourself if you deny it exists and does not have any affect. Look at the shots from the Canon 90D and M6ii in the reviews, the motorsport shots purely panned similar to above show the delay in EVF on the M6ii the car has more road behind than in front with the 90D the car is correctly framed.

--
Mike.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."
 
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Nikon 1? They are still trying to figure out how to do a good mirrorless today
 
And that may well be true.

My contention is simple, and supported by control theory. Whatever you can do with lag in the system you can do better without the lag. Or, you can do more without lag than you can with lag.
True, but not all closed loop control systems with lag are unstable. Humans tracking manually with a VF also contribute lag in the system because of natural reaction time. A slow human using a OVF with zero lag can also cause an unstable system as we well know.
You are still mixing apples & oranges ...

Just like EVF-lag and mirror/shutter-lag are different problems that require different mental compensation, SO IS "REACTION" lag.
I am just talking about apples. I am talking about what constitute the closed loop control just to track and keep the object in frame, not to take the picture. Taking the picture is another operation which also involves the human reaction lag

as well as the shutter (and autofocus if applicable) lag. It is another loop which is an open loop. There are two different cases where human reaction comes into play.
Human Reaction Lag is mainly a problem w/ unpredictable/erratic subjects.
It is the combined EVF lag plus the human reaction lag and any other system lag that determine if the system is stable or unstable.
True ... but that does not change the fact that each separate/different lag's require different mental-compensation.
OK
I can understand Lee's point that OVF tracking can be easier, (if subject is PREDICTABLE and NOT ERRATIC). With "0" OVF lag, you indeed can "track" accurately and the subject can be STILL CENTERED after mirror/shutter-lag and AFTER the mirror returns down.
He talks in generalities like easy or hard. I'm talking about being a stable or unstable closed loop control systems. Only when the lag exceed a critical point does the closed loop system mathematically becomes unstable.
I suggest that ANY lag can be problematic to some degree.
With EVF-lag, the subject is ALWAYS AHEAD even before the "first" exposure. So that is already a problem because you are inherently always playing catch-up.
It's how much ahead and that depends on the EVF lag and the speed of the object. Obviously if the EVF lag is small and the object speed is slow there is no problem. There is a critical point for losing track and that is when the system becomes unstable.
Again ... I suggest that ANY lag can be problematic to some degree.
BUT ... the problem is infinitely worse AFTER the "first" exposure because the returning "live" image is (double) WAY BEHIND the original subject movement, (even IF YOUR PANNING WAS PERFECT). So the biggest problem is with that "second" (and each sequential) shot(s) of a sequence.
Each shot is independent.
BUT ... you CANNOT SHOOT AGAIN unless you "catch-up" after each sequential shot ... and the FACT is that whatever original EVF-lag there is, is then (temporarily) DOUBLED with the "returning" image after each shot.

So the original "catching-up" is complicated with the returning image after each shot.

If you cannot understand that .. you are not thinking with an OPEN mind.
Explain what situation you are talking about.

I am talking about the tracking of a single moving object to keep it framed in the viewfinder. PERIOD.

When you have it satisfactorily framed you take a picture and start over to take another independent picture.
But Lee has a bigger problem when he relies on the (slower) LCD on a (older) LV-LCD that is not optimized for minimum lag. Beginners should be aware that newer EVF are faster, (in both lag and frame-rate).
Again, only if the overall lag (EVF lag and human reaction lag) exceed other system parameters does the system become unstable, ie, you lose track of the object. So, yes, with a small EVF lag and agile person with quick reaction successful tracking of fairly fast moving objects is achievable as some have shown here.
I have agreed that LEE is over-exaggerating the problem (w/ older/slower LCD) ... but his POINT is correct.
Lee speaks from his limited experience and is hard headed when someone else show they have different experiences.
As I said, these were no where near my most challenging tracking situations. Try tracking, by hand, a 9m object, in orbit, from 400km away, at night, at 4,300mm equivalent through f/21 optics while it files straight over your head and you have to manually focus.
Wow, I wonder what's harder: that or juggling 5 balls while standing on your head and hopping on one foot for a cirque du soleil audition.
Well, I can juggle 5 balls (juggling is one of my 7 hobbies), but not upside down. I'll leave the tough stuff to Anthony Gatto.
Why not automate the tracking?
It's much harder than it sounds. The only person I know who did it wrote all his own software, and still uses a gaming joystick to make real-time corrections.
 

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